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In the Name of God بسم الله

[DEBATE: Now open for comments] Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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  • Veteran Member
18 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Layman – If Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was DIVINELEY selected as an Imam for the Ummah

1) Could he “put a curtain (temporary shield)” and abandon his Divine Appointment?

Was he not religiously duty bound to remind everyone of his DIVINE APPOINTMENT? Rather then take path of sabr and not confront the wrong?!

Take the example of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) when he was asked by his uncle to tone down his opposition to the Mushrikeen of Makkah.

"O my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist from it until Allah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt."

Can a DIVINE APPOINTMENTED person relinquish or resign from this position, even if temporarily? And appoint himself as a Councillor or Advisor?

And that a Councillor or Advisor of those who have rebelled against Allah’s WILL?

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not relinquished his duties as Imam because Imamah is independent from non divine election process.  

Since people Madina already went their way to select the leadership for themselves, so Imam Ali (عليه السلام) will not waste his time and efforts to change the people election.  Because, to change the decision by Muhajirun and Ansars would mean a bloody war.  Not putting that option...means (put a curtain or I termed it as temporary sheild).

But that curtain was lifted when he was forced to be the 4th Caliph. So he fought all the enemies of Islam who was not following his leadership.  

So timing and patience were important...

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The Hadith is long so I won't quote the whole thing, Narrated `Aisha: Fatima the daughter of the Prophet (ﷺ) sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of wh

Ahsantum brother I agree with you.  For me it was good for the forum to have this alternative method of one-on-one debate. Both members were respectful and I also appreciate that the other m

Try to quote the Arabic matn of the Hadith. Anyways, I know which Hadith you are quoting, and so I shall reproduce the original Arabic: إِنَّ عَلِيًّا مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُ وَهُوَ وَلِيُّ كُلِّ م

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  • Veteran Member
21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Of course not my friend - because I don't take Nahul Balagha as authentic - There are conflicting sermons which I have pointed out. 

I disagree with the idea of "Conflicting sermons"  With any subject its important to understand: Context, factors, circumstances, condition.

The above  phrases can be easily overlooked. 

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21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

My friend I just showing that Wali can mean any of the following collectively and more: Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper etc. I have shown this with different translations. Imam Jaffar asSadiq (رضي الله عنه) has used the term 'Friend of Allah'

Sure, I understand your perspective which i dont have any issue with. Nevertheless, this hadith dose not prove Wali of Imam Ali  (عليه السلام) has been designated as a friend. 

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18 minutes ago, power said:

I disagree with the idea of "Conflicting sermons"  With any subject its important to understand: Context, factors, circumstances, condition.

The above  phrases can be easily overlooked. 

It’s your prerogative to disagree - of course with subjective understanding of Context, factors, circumstances, conditions and overlooking of phrases everything can be justified as one wants.

I made my point let the readers judge for themselves,

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On 9/19/2020 at 11:08 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Wialayat faqeeh is the concept of group of people in Iran and it has nothing to do with the basic belief and creed of shia.

wasalam

Simiarly who says that the "Polictical Leadership" of Caliphs after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is the divine decree or basic belief or creed of Mainstream Muslims? Why asking for proof for that?

 

On 9/19/2020 at 11:00 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Since the Quran is the  message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to the last prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).w. then the principle defined in the verses are final  and not liable to change thus the selection of prophets / leaders / caliphs / imams  by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not change. 

Again, you need to point me the verse of Qur'an talking about the appointment of Imams after Prophet Muhammed (saww) as their successors? I don't need your "Qiyas" from the appointment of previous Prophets please.

 

On 9/19/2020 at 11:00 AM, Muslim2010 said:

I do have asked about the verse for the non appointment of the successor of the prophet in this thread by sunis and they have not yet put any answer to my question.

I don't need to prove you the method of appointment as it is not the matter of creed similary like that of the matter of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh for us. Despire that I can prove you from Qur'an that the leadership after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is not divine in nature. There is a verse of Qur'an (25:30) indicating that any believer can pray to ALLAH to make them the Imams of Pious people. This implies that this station is not divinely bestowed like that of Prohethood. 

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1 hour ago, investigating said:

There is a verse of Qur'an (25:30) indicating that any believer can pray to ALLAH to make them the Imams of Pious people

WOW!!!!!

How little do Muslims pray!!! Why not you start praying that verse and become the Imam of pious? 

You only need to say:

Rabbana hablana min azwajena wa zurriyatena qurrata a'yun wala ja'alna lil muttaqeena imama... 

I am wondering why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have tested Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) prior to giving him this covenant!!! 

Quote

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

 

1 hour ago, investigating said:

Again, you need to point me the verse of Qur'an talking about the appointment of Imams after Prophet Muhammed (saww) as their successors?

4:59, 5:55, and more precisely if you keep 2:124 in mind, the following phrase:

قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And see the verse of chapter 22:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ {78}

[Shakir 22:78] And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Divine command to nominate/fix:

فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانْصَبْ {7}

[Shakir 94:7] So when you are free, nominate.

Prophet's response:

"Man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mowla".

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  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, investigating said:

Simiarly who says that the "Polictical Leadership" of Caliphs after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is the divine decree or basic belief or creed of Mainstream Muslims? Why asking for proof for that?

I have mentioned in the last post that here is no such evidence by a verses or example  that the people can choose a prophet/ divine leader/ caliphs/ imams as no verse exist do define such principle in quran (if you think otherwise then provide the evidence with example of people chosen caliph). But there are many examples of divinely appointed leaders /caliphs / imams mentioned in quran. The proof is necessary as the matter of the succession after the prophet has to be defined in the verses of quran and not by a group of people. 

The first source of religion is quran and then hadith, if a principle in quran is not defined  that it is liable to be rejected straightaway including  the supposition for some one chosen by the people as successor of the prophet. This is Qiyas and i certainly throw it on the wall.

Where is the verse of Quran that states that the People can choose a prophet, leader, caliph, imam or successor of the prophet? Any example from quran of the caliph chosen by the people?

Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?

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1 hour ago, investigating said:

Again, you need to point me the verse of Qur'an talking about the appointment of Imams after Prophet Muhammed (saww) as their successors? 

There are many but we need to ponder over thats necessary as per my view.

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ صِدِّيقًا نَّبِيًّا

1.    And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. (19:41)

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

2.    And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

إِنَّ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةًۭ قَانِتًۭا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًۭا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

3.  Indeed Abraham was a Nation (أُمَّةًۭ), obedient to Allah, a Hanif, and he was not a polytheist. (16:120)

Hz ibrahim as has been chosen as Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his descendants also has Imams guiding the people. He has been termed as a Nation (أُمَّةًۭ  to confirm him as a  leader / imam)

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

4.  Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah ." (6:161)

The prophet Muhammad is the seal of prophets. There is no prophet after him. So the guidance comes through rightly guided leaders / imams after him as mentioned per above verse.

وَمِن قَوْمِ مُوسَىٰٓ أُمَّةٌۭ يَهْدُونَ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَبِهِۦ يَعْدِلُونَ

5.    Among the people of Moses is a Nation who guide [the people] by the truth and do justice thereby. (7:159)

وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ نَافِلَةًۭ ۖ وَكُلًّۭا جَعَلْنَا صَٰلِحِينَ

 وَجَعَلْنَٰهُمْ أَئِمَّةًۭ يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ ٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ وَإِقَامَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةِ وَإِيتَآءَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا۟ لَنَا عَٰبِدِينَ

6.     And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.(21:72)

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ ٱتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ حَنِيفًۭا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

7.  Thereafter We revealed to you [saying], ‘Follow the creed of Abraham, a Hanif, who was not a polytheist.’ (16:123)

إِنَّآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ كَمَآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰ نُوحٍۢ وَٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِۦ ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَإِسْمَٰعِيلَ وَإِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَٱلْأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَٰرُونَ وَسُلَيْمَٰنَ ۚ وَءَاتَيْنَا دَاوُۥدَ زَبُورًۭا

8.  We have indeed revealed to you as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets after him, and [as] We revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon—and We gave David the Psalms— (4:163)

This verse states that what has been revealed to the other prophets all (or same) has been revealed to our prophet Muhammad saw.

The above verse clarifies that the religion of Ibrahim has to be followed containing  12 leaders chosen by Allah . The verse mentions exactly 12 Names. Hadith provides the evidence of 12 imams by name in the sayings of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

 Hz Ibrahim as was made leader / imam of mankind by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He has been termed as Nation (أُمَّةًۭ  ).

The tribes (Asbat) are from the twelve sons of Jacob. There were twelve leaders chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their children known as bani Israel.

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. (5:12)

وَلْتَكُن مِّنكُمْ أُمَّةٌۭ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى ٱلْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ ٱلْمُنكَرِ ۚ وَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ 

9.  There has to be a Nation among you summoning to the good, bidding what is right, and forbidding what is wrong. It is they who are the felicitous. (3:104)

This term Nation (أُمَّةٌۭ) has already been used for Hz Ibrahim (as Leader / Imam appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) likewise we have here as leader / Imam as guide after the prophet.

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَآ أُمَّةٌۭ يَهْدُونَ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَبِهِۦ يَعْدِلُونَ

10.  Among those We have created are a Nation who guide by the truth and do justice thereby. (7:181)

This term Nation (أُمَّةٌۭ) has already been used for Hz Ibrahim (as Leader / Imam appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) likewise we have here leaders / Imams as guide.

I have mentioned my view in the light of verses of quran in a concise manner for the presence of 12 leaders . imams after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in our nation.

Moreover, There  are many hadith quoted in this thread so far that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the Caliph / successor,  Wali, and Mawla after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for believers.  wasalam

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  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, investigating said:

I don't need to prove you the method of appointment as it is not the matter of creed similary like that of the matter of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh for us. Despire that I can prove you from Qur'an that the leadership after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is not divine in nature. 

I do not need to mention my basic belief for the divinely  appointed successor of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I have replied my view in the post mentioned above at link

wasalam

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4 hours ago, investigating said:

Qur'an that the leadership after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is not divine in nature.

I love logic.

One with wisdom does not even need to open the Quran in order to know that Allah would not leave the people without a divinely appointed leader. Otherwise there is no source of truth, and therefore no righteous path to Allah. And if there is no righteous path to Allah, there is no right or wrong, because any path is valid as determined by an individual's freewill and capacity of interpretation with a majority following. 

Or do people believe that anyone can lead to the right path without any deviation? Point me to these miraculous, divine-free people, who although not appointed by Allah are able to lead to a straight path. A path which required 124,000 of the best human beings the appointment of Prophethood in order to lead down that straight path.

Point to me these great personalities who make life so easy, that I could merely say on the day of judgement "I didn't know any better, because you God did not provide a right path, therefore I should be forgiven for any and all sins, even the innocent lives I transgressed against, because my leader at the time said their blood is halal and anyone can be an Imam as per the Quran, so I did my best in choosing whoever". A3uthubillah w asta8firallah.

 

what was quoted by you from the Quran is grossly out of context and comical, and this logic proves it.

 

يَوْمَ نَدْعُواْ كُلَّ اُنَاسٍ بإِمَامِهِمْ فَمَنْ اُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَاُوْلَئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلاَ يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلاً

“On the Day We shall call every people with their Imam (leader); then whoever is given his book in his right hand; then these will read their book (joyfully); and they will not be treated unjustly in the least."

Surah Israh chapter 17 verse 71

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There are many but we need to ponder over thats necessary as per my view.

Sorry you didn't quote a single verse which talks about the appointment of individuals or group of individuals appointment by Allah to lead Ummah after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The verse 2:124 has only to do with general leadership of prophethood in a sense of inspiration for mankind. The acceptance of Dua of Ibraheem (عليه السلام) is revealed in following verse of Qur'an:

And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and ordained in his descendants prophethood and scripture. (29:27)

This leadership of prophethood and scripture was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Had this concept of leadership been a different or elevated station than that of Prophethood (as per Shia interpretation of 2:124), Allah would not have called Ibrahim (عليه السلام) with his lower status of Prophethood in following verse of Qur'an:

And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet.(19:41)

Suppose if a Minister has been promoted to a Prime Minister, will he be still be called as Minister? (Think about it rationally)

Quote

Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?


My claim is: Allah didn't make a divine appointment of anyone after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I will present my proofs to substantiate my claim.

First Proof: (Absence of Announcemnt of Appointment in Qur'an)

The absense of the verse of Qur'an for the announcement of anyone Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his successor is the basis of my claim.


Second Proof: (Sealed of Divine stations)

There is only two divinely appointed stations as mentioned in Qur'an since Adam (عليه السلام) till Prophet Muhammed (saww):

1. Nabuwwah 2: Risaalah

These have been sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Why only two? Why not Imamah?

The proof of my claim is the criteria of salvation mentioned in Qur'an for entire Ummah:

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone faar astray. (4:136)

Had there been any station other than "Nabuwwah & Risaalah" to be divine in nature, ALLAH would have asked to believe in as well.

Morever, if Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also has an additional status of Imamate along with Risaalah and Nabuwwah (to justify his highest authority among all Prophets & Shia Imams), Allan would not have repeatively mentioned in Qur'an by saying: "He is no more than a Rasool or Prophet"...

The concept of general leadership in Qur'an or the leadership in a sense of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) being inspiration for mankind or a in a sense of Nabuwaah and scription in his offsprings doesn't make it a separate station just like Kingship itself is not divine station unless attributed to Prophets. 

 

Third Proof: (Possibility of Dua for a common believer to make himself Imam of Pious)

There is a verse of Qur'an (25:30) indicating that any believer can pray to ALLAH to make them the Imams of Pious people. This implies that this station is nodivinely bestowed like that of Prohethood. 

 

Fourth Proof: (Promising of Rulership to common Believers based on Good Deeds)

The worldy dominion and rulership has been promised to the believers based on Good Deeds in Quran 24:55. Had this rulership requires divine appointment it would not have been promised. As divine stations like prophethood are not promised based on Good Deeds. It is rather unconditionally bestowed to whomsoever Allah wills.

 

Fifth Proof: (No Proof of Claim of Divine Leadership attributed to Imam Ali based on Ghadir-e-Khumm)

Ali (عليه السلام) never claimed where He was appointed by ALLAH to lead Ummah based on Ghadir-e-Khum incident or Hadith-e-Manzilah (No proof for such claim from Shia or Sunni resources)

 

Sixth Reason: (Absence of Divine Status even for so-called followers of Imam)

For more than 1200 yrs, no individual has claimed to be the final divine leader of Ummah. No one tried to convince the Ummah to believe in himself and follow himself based on his divine attributes. 

What's the point of divine successorship when Shia brothers themselve have to rely on fallible Marjas and narrators to follow their infallible Imams for more than 1200 yrs ago?

Edited by investigating
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1 hour ago, investigating said:

Sorry you didn't quote a single verse which talks about the appointment of individuals or group of individuals appointment by Allah to lead Ummah after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The verse 2:124 has only to do with general leadership of prophethood in a sense of inspiration for mankind. The acceptance of Dua of Ibraheem (عليه السلام) is revealed in following verse of Qur'an

And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and ordained in his descendants prophethood and scripture. (29:27)

This leadership of prophethood and scripture was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

1. I have mentioned many clear verses of quran that confirm the presence of 12 leaders in our nation after the prophet but you do not intend to ponder over those with open heart and eyes. It is your choice not mine.

2.  There is no answer yet for my quoted questions that are mentioned below:

Where is the verse of Quran that states that the People can choose a prophet, leader, caliph, imam or successor of the prophet? Any example from quran of the caliph chosen by the people?

Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?

3.  وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ صِدِّيقًا نَّبِيًّا

And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. (19:41)

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

 And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

إِنَّ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةًۭ قَانِتًۭا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًۭا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

Indeed Abraham was a Nation (أُمَّةًۭ), obedient to Allah, a Hanif, and he was not a polytheist. (16:120)

Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has the status of the prophet, and Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) . He was not selected  imam by the people.  The prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has been instructed to follow the religion  of Ibrahim (عليه السلام).:

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah ." (6:161)

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ ٱتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ حَنِيفًۭا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

Thereafter We revealed to you [saying], ‘Follow the creed of Abraham, a Hanif, who was not a polytheist.’ (16:123)

The above verses provide the evidence that prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has been instructed to follow the religion of ibrahim (عليه السلام). Ibrahim is a prophet and a guided Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Thus it confirms  that following the prophet and Imam chosen by Allah is the sunna of the prophet for correct religion. There are many verses that implies to follow the prophet is mandatory. 

if there were no Imams after him the prophet would have not been instructed to follow the religion of ibrahim ie a prophet and Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

4. The prophet Muhaammd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the last prophet but he is not the last imam as there are 12 imams after him as many hadith provide the confirmation.

5.  فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (30:30)

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ ۚ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ ۚ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

  Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him]. (9:36)

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ ٱتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ حَنِيفًۭا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

Thereafter We revealed to you [saying], ‘Follow the creed of Abraham, a Hanif, who was not a polytheist.’ (16:123)

إِنَّآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ كَمَآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰ نُوحٍۢ وَٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِۦ ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَإِسْمَٰعِيلَ وَإِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَٱلْأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَٰرُونَ وَسُلَيْمَٰنَ ۚ وَءَاتَيْنَا دَاوُۥدَ زَبُورًۭا

 We have indeed revealed to you as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets after him, and [as] We revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon—and We gave David the Psalms— (4:163)

The above verse clarifies that the religion of Ibrahim has to be followed containing             12 leaders chosen by Allah . The verse mentions exactly 12 Names.

1 Nuh, 2 Ibrahim, 3. Ismail, 4. Ishaque, 5. Yaqub, 6. Alisbat, 7. Esa, 8. Ayub, 9. Yunus, 10. Haroon, 11. Suleman, 12. Dawood (عليه السلام)

5.  If you think otherwise  then I like you to quote a verse please  that the prophet is the last imam.  wasalam

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1 hour ago, investigating said:


My claim is: Allah didn't make a divine appointment of anyone after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I will present my proofs to substantiate my claim.

First Proof: (Absence of Announcemnt of Appointment in Qur'an)

The absense of the verse of Qur'an for the announcement of anyone Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his successor is the basis of my claim.


Second Proof: (Sealed of Divine stations)

There is only two divinely appointed stations as mentioned in Qur'an since Adam (عليه السلام) till Prophet Muhammed (saww):

1. Nabuwwah 2: Risaalah

These have been sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Why only two? Why not Imamah?

1. I disagree with you brother as there are verses mentioning the prophet as Imams guided by the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Thus the 3rd  status is Imams chosen by Allah  like Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام). (2:124)

وَمِن قَوْمِ مُوسَىٰٓ أُمَّةٌۭ يَهْدُونَ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَبِهِۦ يَعْدِلُونَ

Among the people of Moses is a Nation who guide [the people] by the truth and do justice thereby. (7:159)

وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ نَافِلَةًۭ ۖ وَكُلًّۭا جَعَلْنَا صَٰلِحِينَ

And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.(21:72)

 وَجَعَلْنَٰهُمْ أَئِمَّةًۭ يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ ٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ وَإِقَامَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةِ وَإِيتَآءَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا۟ لَنَا عَٰبِدِينَ

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve; (21:73)

2.   There are many verses that mentions the examples of prophets / leaders /caliphs/ imams / chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in earlier . No example of people chosen caliph exists in quran.  This is the way of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it does not change. The following verses provide the evidence of it:

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. 

The way of Allah does  not change:

ۚ فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ ۚ فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا ۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا

But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration. (35:43)

3. وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

 And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (3:84)

wasalam

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On 9/19/2020 at 8:13 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you purposelessly ignored the bold part just to prove your point but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said if he accepts people request then he won't  take advice from any of them because he just will follow holy Quran & Sunnah of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) but he knew that people will change their mind that they will reject any command from him as caliph so he warned them to choose another person then he will help the chosen caliph like previous  caliphs but he didn't  deny his right as caliph .

Salaam Ashvazdanghe

My apologies for giving you the impression of ‘PURPOSELY IGNORING the bold part’ (just to let you know that this is not my style to hoodwink people in debates. I came here to debate to share what I think is to my knowledge the Sunni version and learn how the Shia justify their version.)

Shia claim that it was by Allah Almighty’s Will Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was appointed as an IMAM to succeed Ummah after passing away of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah Almighty.

1) So is it possible for someone who is chosen as the IMAM of Muslims by the WILL OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY to opt out of IMAMATE and just become a Counsellor and say that he would “listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of their affairs”???????!

Was not Imam chosen by Allah Almighty duty bound to LEAD people and not to listen and follow other person chosen by people?

2) Won’t he be going against Allah Almighty’s WILL by listening and following other people?

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On 9/19/2020 at 8:13 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-92-leave-me-and-find-someone-else

Ashvazdanghe – just by ‘copy and pasting’ “DOCTORED MATERIAL” you may involuntarily succeed in misleading readers here

 You can read the complete hadith here: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/57

It’s very long I’ll just extract the relevant part and the readers can see clearly how misleading material you ‘cut & pasted’.

' (O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, AND THERE IS NONE AMONG YOU WHO HAS THE QUALITIES OF ABU BAKR. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.’

Note Hz. Umar bin Khattab (رضي الله عنه) stated:

1) Selection of Hz. Abu Bakr to Khilafaat was a SUCCESS

2) there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr.

This completely opposite to what you were trying to imply!

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