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In the Name of God بسم الله

[DEBATE: Now open for comments] Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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  • Veteran Member
18 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Layman – If Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was DIVINELEY selected as an Imam for the Ummah

1) Could he “put a curtain (temporary shield)” and abandon his Divine Appointment?

Was he not religiously duty bound to remind everyone of his DIVINE APPOINTMENT? Rather then take path of sabr and not confront the wrong?!

Take the example of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) when he was asked by his uncle to tone down his opposition to the Mushrikeen of Makkah.

"O my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist from it until Allah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt."

Can a DIVINE APPOINTMENTED person relinquish or resign from this position, even if temporarily? And appoint himself as a Councillor or Advisor?

And that a Councillor or Advisor of those who have rebelled against Allah’s WILL?

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not relinquished his duties as Imam because Imamah is independent from non divine election process.  

Since people Madina already went their way to select the leadership for themselves, so Imam Ali (عليه السلام) will not waste his time and efforts to change the people election.  Because, to change the decision by Muhajirun and Ansars would mean a bloody war.  Not putting that option...means (put a curtain or I termed it as temporary sheild).

But that curtain was lifted when he was forced to be the 4th Caliph. So he fought all the enemies of Islam who was not following his leadership.  

So timing and patience were important...

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  • Veteran Member
21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Of course not my friend - because I don't take Nahul Balagha as authentic - There are conflicting sermons which I have pointed out. 

I disagree with the idea of "Conflicting sermons"  With any subject its important to understand: Context, factors, circumstances, condition.

The above  phrases can be easily overlooked. 

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21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

My friend I just showing that Wali can mean any of the following collectively and more: Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper etc. I have shown this with different translations. Imam Jaffar asSadiq (رضي الله عنه) has used the term 'Friend of Allah'

Sure, I understand your perspective which i dont have any issue with. Nevertheless, this hadith dose not prove Wali of Imam Ali  (عليه السلام) has been designated as a friend. 

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18 minutes ago, power said:

I disagree with the idea of "Conflicting sermons"  With any subject its important to understand: Context, factors, circumstances, condition.

The above  phrases can be easily overlooked. 

It’s your prerogative to disagree - of course with subjective understanding of Context, factors, circumstances, conditions and overlooking of phrases everything can be justified as one wants.

I made my point let the readers judge for themselves,

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On 9/19/2020 at 11:08 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Wialayat faqeeh is the concept of group of people in Iran and it has nothing to do with the basic belief and creed of shia.

wasalam

Simiarly who says that the "Polictical Leadership" of Caliphs after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is the divine decree or basic belief or creed of Mainstream Muslims? Why asking for proof for that?

 

On 9/19/2020 at 11:00 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Since the Quran is the  message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to the last prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).w. then the principle defined in the verses are final  and not liable to change thus the selection of prophets / leaders / caliphs / imams  by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not change. 

Again, you need to point me the verse of Qur'an talking about the appointment of Imams after Prophet Muhammed (saww) as their successors? I don't need your "Qiyas" from the appointment of previous Prophets please.

 

On 9/19/2020 at 11:00 AM, Muslim2010 said:

I do have asked about the verse for the non appointment of the successor of the prophet in this thread by sunis and they have not yet put any answer to my question.

I don't need to prove you the method of appointment as it is not the matter of creed similary like that of the matter of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh for us. Despire that I can prove you from Qur'an that the leadership after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is not divine in nature. There is a verse of Qur'an (25:30) indicating that any believer can pray to ALLAH to make them the Imams of Pious people. This implies that this station is not divinely bestowed like that of Prohethood. 

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1 hour ago, investigating said:

There is a verse of Qur'an (25:30) indicating that any believer can pray to ALLAH to make them the Imams of Pious people

WOW!!!!!

How little do Muslims pray!!! Why not you start praying that verse and become the Imam of pious? 

You only need to say:

Rabbana hablana min azwajena wa zurriyatena qurrata a'yun wala ja'alna lil muttaqeena imama... 

I am wondering why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have tested Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) prior to giving him this covenant!!! 

Quote

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

 

1 hour ago, investigating said:

Again, you need to point me the verse of Qur'an talking about the appointment of Imams after Prophet Muhammed (saww) as their successors?

4:59, 5:55, and more precisely if you keep 2:124 in mind, the following phrase:

قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And see the verse of chapter 22:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ {78}

[Shakir 22:78] And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Divine command to nominate/fix:

فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانْصَبْ {7}

[Shakir 94:7] So when you are free, nominate.

Prophet's response:

"Man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mowla".

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  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, investigating said:

Simiarly who says that the "Polictical Leadership" of Caliphs after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is the divine decree or basic belief or creed of Mainstream Muslims? Why asking for proof for that?

I have mentioned in the last post that here is no such evidence by a verses or example  that the people can choose a prophet/ divine leader/ caliphs/ imams as no verse exist do define such principle in quran (if you think otherwise then provide the evidence with example of people chosen caliph). But there are many examples of divinely appointed leaders /caliphs / imams mentioned in quran. The proof is necessary as the matter of the succession after the prophet has to be defined in the verses of quran and not by a group of people. 

The first source of religion is quran and then hadith, if a principle in quran is not defined  that it is liable to be rejected straightaway including  the supposition for some one chosen by the people as successor of the prophet. This is Qiyas and i certainly throw it on the wall.

Where is the verse of Quran that states that the People can choose a prophet, leader, caliph, imam or successor of the prophet? Any example from quran of the caliph chosen by the people?

Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?

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1 hour ago, investigating said:

Again, you need to point me the verse of Qur'an talking about the appointment of Imams after Prophet Muhammed (saww) as their successors? 

There are many but we need to ponder over thats necessary as per my view.

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ صِدِّيقًا نَّبِيًّا

1.    And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. (19:41)

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

2.    And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

إِنَّ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةًۭ قَانِتًۭا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًۭا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

3.  Indeed Abraham was a Nation (أُمَّةًۭ), obedient to Allah, a Hanif, and he was not a polytheist. (16:120)

Hz ibrahim as has been chosen as Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his descendants also has Imams guiding the people. He has been termed as a Nation (أُمَّةًۭ  to confirm him as a  leader / imam)

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

4.  Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah ." (6:161)

The prophet Muhammad is the seal of prophets. There is no prophet after him. So the guidance comes through rightly guided leaders / imams after him as mentioned per above verse.

وَمِن قَوْمِ مُوسَىٰٓ أُمَّةٌۭ يَهْدُونَ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَبِهِۦ يَعْدِلُونَ

5.    Among the people of Moses is a Nation who guide [the people] by the truth and do justice thereby. (7:159)

وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ نَافِلَةًۭ ۖ وَكُلًّۭا جَعَلْنَا صَٰلِحِينَ

 وَجَعَلْنَٰهُمْ أَئِمَّةًۭ يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ ٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ وَإِقَامَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةِ وَإِيتَآءَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا۟ لَنَا عَٰبِدِينَ

6.     And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.(21:72)

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ ٱتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ حَنِيفًۭا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

7.  Thereafter We revealed to you [saying], ‘Follow the creed of Abraham, a Hanif, who was not a polytheist.’ (16:123)

إِنَّآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ كَمَآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰ نُوحٍۢ وَٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِۦ ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَإِسْمَٰعِيلَ وَإِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَٱلْأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَٰرُونَ وَسُلَيْمَٰنَ ۚ وَءَاتَيْنَا دَاوُۥدَ زَبُورًۭا

8.  We have indeed revealed to you as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets after him, and [as] We revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon—and We gave David the Psalms— (4:163)

This verse states that what has been revealed to the other prophets all (or same) has been revealed to our prophet Muhammad saw.

The above verse clarifies that the religion of Ibrahim has to be followed containing  12 leaders chosen by Allah . The verse mentions exactly 12 Names. Hadith provides the evidence of 12 imams by name in the sayings of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

 Hz Ibrahim as was made leader / imam of mankind by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He has been termed as Nation (أُمَّةًۭ  ).

The tribes (Asbat) are from the twelve sons of Jacob. There were twelve leaders chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their children known as bani Israel.

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. (5:12)

وَلْتَكُن مِّنكُمْ أُمَّةٌۭ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى ٱلْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ ٱلْمُنكَرِ ۚ وَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ 

9.  There has to be a Nation among you summoning to the good, bidding what is right, and forbidding what is wrong. It is they who are the felicitous. (3:104)

This term Nation (أُمَّةٌۭ) has already been used for Hz Ibrahim (as Leader / Imam appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) likewise we have here as leader / Imam as guide after the prophet.

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَآ أُمَّةٌۭ يَهْدُونَ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَبِهِۦ يَعْدِلُونَ

10.  Among those We have created are a Nation who guide by the truth and do justice thereby. (7:181)

This term Nation (أُمَّةٌۭ) has already been used for Hz Ibrahim (as Leader / Imam appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) likewise we have here leaders / Imams as guide.

I have mentioned my view in the light of verses of quran in a concise manner for the presence of 12 leaders . imams after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in our nation.

Moreover, There  are many hadith quoted in this thread so far that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the Caliph / successor,  Wali, and Mawla after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for believers.  wasalam

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1 hour ago, investigating said:

I don't need to prove you the method of appointment as it is not the matter of creed similary like that of the matter of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh for us. Despire that I can prove you from Qur'an that the leadership after Prophet Muhammed (saww) is not divine in nature. 

I do not need to mention my basic belief for the divinely  appointed successor of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I have replied my view in the post mentioned above at link

wasalam

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Quote

There are many but we need to ponder over thats necessary as per my view.

Sorry you didn't quote a single verse which talks about the appointment of individuals or group of individuals appointment by Allah to lead Ummah after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The verse 2:124 has only to do with general leadership of prophethood in a sense of inspiration for mankind. The acceptance of Dua of Ibraheem (عليه السلام) is revealed in following verse of Qur'an:

And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and ordained in his descendants prophethood and scripture. (29:27)

This leadership of prophethood and scripture was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Had this concept of leadership been a different or elevated station than that of Prophethood (as per Shia interpretation of 2:124), Allah would not have called Ibrahim (عليه السلام) with his lower status of Prophethood in following verse of Qur'an:

And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet.(19:41)

Suppose if a Minister has been promoted to a Prime Minister, will he be still be called as Minister? (Think about it rationally)

Quote

Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?


My claim is: Allah didn't make a divine appointment of anyone after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I will present my proofs to substantiate my claim.

First Proof: (Absence of Announcemnt of Appointment in Qur'an)

The absense of the verse of Qur'an for the announcement of anyone Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his successor is the basis of my claim.


Second Proof: (Sealed of Divine stations)

There is only two divinely appointed stations as mentioned in Qur'an since Adam (عليه السلام) till Prophet Muhammed (saww):

1. Nabuwwah 2: Risaalah

These have been sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Why only two? Why not Imamah?

The proof of my claim is the criteria of salvation mentioned in Qur'an for entire Ummah:

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone faar astray. (4:136)

Had there been any station other than "Nabuwwah & Risaalah" to be divine in nature, ALLAH would have asked to believe in as well.

Morever, if Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also has an additional status of Imamate along with Risaalah and Nabuwwah (to justify his highest authority among all Prophets & Shia Imams), Allan would not have repeatively mentioned in Qur'an by saying: "He is no more than a Rasool or Prophet"...

The concept of general leadership in Qur'an or the leadership in a sense of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) being inspiration for mankind or a in a sense of Nabuwaah and scription in his offsprings doesn't make it a separate station just like Kingship itself is not divine station unless attributed to Prophets. 

 

Third Proof: (Possibility of Dua for a common believer to make himself Imam of Pious)

There is a verse of Qur'an (25:30) indicating that any believer can pray to ALLAH to make them the Imams of Pious people. This implies that this station is nodivinely bestowed like that of Prohethood. 

 

Fourth Proof: (Promising of Rulership to common Believers based on Good Deeds)

The worldy dominion and rulership has been promised to the believers based on Good Deeds in Quran 24:55. Had this rulership requires divine appointment it would not have been promised. As divine stations like prophethood are not promised based on Good Deeds. It is rather unconditionally bestowed to whomsoever Allah wills.

 

Fifth Proof: (No Proof of Claim of Divine Leadership attributed to Imam Ali based on Ghadir-e-Khumm)

Ali (عليه السلام) never claimed where He was appointed by ALLAH to lead Ummah based on Ghadir-e-Khum incident or Hadith-e-Manzilah (No proof for such claim from Shia or Sunni resources)

 

Sixth Reason: (Absence of Divine Status even for so-called followers of Imam)

For more than 1200 yrs, no individual has claimed to be the final divine leader of Ummah. No one tried to convince the Ummah to believe in himself and follow himself based on his divine attributes. 

What's the point of divine successorship when Shia brothers themselve have to rely on fallible Marjas and narrators to follow their infallible Imams for more than 1200 yrs ago?

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1 hour ago, investigating said:

Sorry you didn't quote a single verse which talks about the appointment of individuals or group of individuals appointment by Allah to lead Ummah after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The verse 2:124 has only to do with general leadership of prophethood in a sense of inspiration for mankind. The acceptance of Dua of Ibraheem (عليه السلام) is revealed in following verse of Qur'an

And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and ordained in his descendants prophethood and scripture. (29:27)

This leadership of prophethood and scripture was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

1. I have mentioned many clear verses of quran that confirm the presence of 12 leaders in our nation after the prophet but you do not intend to ponder over those with open heart and eyes. It is your choice not mine.

2.  There is no answer yet for my quoted questions that are mentioned below:

Where is the verse of Quran that states that the People can choose a prophet, leader, caliph, imam or successor of the prophet? Any example from quran of the caliph chosen by the people?

Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?

3.  وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ صِدِّيقًا نَّبِيًّا

And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. (19:41)

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

 And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

إِنَّ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةًۭ قَانِتًۭا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًۭا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

Indeed Abraham was a Nation (أُمَّةًۭ), obedient to Allah, a Hanif, and he was not a polytheist. (16:120)

Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has the status of the prophet, and Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) . He was not selected  imam by the people.  The prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has been instructed to follow the religion  of Ibrahim (عليه السلام).:

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah ." (6:161)

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ ٱتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ حَنِيفًۭا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

Thereafter We revealed to you [saying], ‘Follow the creed of Abraham, a Hanif, who was not a polytheist.’ (16:123)

The above verses provide the evidence that prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has been instructed to follow the religion of ibrahim (عليه السلام). Ibrahim is a prophet and a guided Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Thus it confirms  that following the prophet and Imam chosen by Allah is the sunna of the prophet for correct religion. There are many verses that implies to follow the prophet is mandatory. 

if there were no Imams after him the prophet would have not been instructed to follow the religion of ibrahim ie a prophet and Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

4. The prophet Muhaammd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the last prophet but he is not the last imam as there are 12 imams after him as many hadith provide the confirmation.

5.  فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (30:30)

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ ۚ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ ۚ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

  Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him]. (9:36)

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ ٱتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ حَنِيفًۭا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ

Thereafter We revealed to you [saying], ‘Follow the creed of Abraham, a Hanif, who was not a polytheist.’ (16:123)

إِنَّآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ كَمَآ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰ نُوحٍۢ وَٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِۦ ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَإِسْمَٰعِيلَ وَإِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَٱلْأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَىٰ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَٰرُونَ وَسُلَيْمَٰنَ ۚ وَءَاتَيْنَا دَاوُۥدَ زَبُورًۭا

 We have indeed revealed to you as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets after him, and [as] We revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon—and We gave David the Psalms— (4:163)

The above verse clarifies that the religion of Ibrahim has to be followed containing             12 leaders chosen by Allah . The verse mentions exactly 12 Names.

1 Nuh, 2 Ibrahim, 3. Ismail, 4. Ishaque, 5. Yaqub, 6. Alisbat, 7. Esa, 8. Ayub, 9. Yunus, 10. Haroon, 11. Suleman, 12. Dawood (عليه السلام)

5.  If you think otherwise  then I like you to quote a verse please  that the prophet is the last imam.  wasalam

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1 hour ago, investigating said:


My claim is: Allah didn't make a divine appointment of anyone after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I will present my proofs to substantiate my claim.

First Proof: (Absence of Announcemnt of Appointment in Qur'an)

The absense of the verse of Qur'an for the announcement of anyone Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his successor is the basis of my claim.


Second Proof: (Sealed of Divine stations)

There is only two divinely appointed stations as mentioned in Qur'an since Adam (عليه السلام) till Prophet Muhammed (saww):

1. Nabuwwah 2: Risaalah

These have been sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Why only two? Why not Imamah?

1. I disagree with you brother as there are verses mentioning the prophet as Imams guided by the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Thus the 3rd  status is Imams chosen by Allah  like Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام). (2:124)

وَمِن قَوْمِ مُوسَىٰٓ أُمَّةٌۭ يَهْدُونَ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَبِهِۦ يَعْدِلُونَ

Among the people of Moses is a Nation who guide [the people] by the truth and do justice thereby. (7:159)

وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ نَافِلَةًۭ ۖ وَكُلًّۭا جَعَلْنَا صَٰلِحِينَ

And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.(21:72)

 وَجَعَلْنَٰهُمْ أَئِمَّةًۭ يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ ٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ وَإِقَامَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةِ وَإِيتَآءَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا۟ لَنَا عَٰبِدِينَ

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve; (21:73)

2.   There are many verses that mentions the examples of prophets / leaders /caliphs/ imams / chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in earlier . No example of people chosen caliph exists in quran.  This is the way of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it does not change. The following verses provide the evidence of it:

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. 

The way of Allah does  not change:

ۚ فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ ۚ فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا ۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا

But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration. (35:43)

3. وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

 And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (3:84)

wasalam

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On 9/19/2020 at 8:13 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you purposelessly ignored the bold part just to prove your point but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said if he accepts people request then he won't  take advice from any of them because he just will follow holy Quran & Sunnah of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) but he knew that people will change their mind that they will reject any command from him as caliph so he warned them to choose another person then he will help the chosen caliph like previous  caliphs but he didn't  deny his right as caliph .

Salaam Ashvazdanghe

My apologies for giving you the impression of ‘PURPOSELY IGNORING the bold part’ (just to let you know that this is not my style to hoodwink people in debates. I came here to debate to share what I think is to my knowledge the Sunni version and learn how the Shia justify their version.)

Shia claim that it was by Allah Almighty’s Will Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was appointed as an IMAM to succeed Ummah after passing away of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah Almighty.

1) So is it possible for someone who is chosen as the IMAM of Muslims by the WILL OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY to opt out of IMAMATE and just become a Counsellor and say that he would “listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of their affairs”???????!

Was not Imam chosen by Allah Almighty duty bound to LEAD people and not to listen and follow other person chosen by people?

2) Won’t he be going against Allah Almighty’s WILL by listening and following other people?

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On 9/19/2020 at 8:13 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-92-leave-me-and-find-someone-else

Ashvazdanghe – just by ‘copy and pasting’ “DOCTORED MATERIAL” you may involuntarily succeed in misleading readers here

 You can read the complete hadith here: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/57

It’s very long I’ll just extract the relevant part and the readers can see clearly how misleading material you ‘cut & pasted’.

' (O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, AND THERE IS NONE AMONG YOU WHO HAS THE QUALITIES OF ABU BAKR. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.’

Note Hz. Umar bin Khattab (رضي الله عنه) stated:

1) Selection of Hz. Abu Bakr to Khilafaat was a SUCCESS

2) there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr.

This completely opposite to what you were trying to imply!

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49 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Salaam Ashvazdanghe

My apologies for giving you the impression of ‘PURPOSELY IGNORING the bold part’ (just to let you know that this is not my style to hoodwink people in debates. I came here to debate to share what I think is to my knowledge the Sunni version and learn how the Shia justify their version.)

Shia claim that it was by Allah Almighty’s Will Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was appointed as an IMAM to succeed Ummah after passing away of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah Almighty.

1) So is it possible for someone who is chosen as the IMAM of Muslims by the WILL OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY to opt out of IMAMATE and just become a Counsellor and say that he would “listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of their affairs”???????!

Was not Imam chosen by Allah Almighty duty bound to LEAD people and not to listen and follow other person chosen by people?

2) Won’t he be going against Allah Almighty’s WILL by listening and following other people?

1. Not only Shia claim this. Many Muslims who are not Shia accept the very obvious fact that the even of Ghadir Khum was Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) officially appointing Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) as his sucessor. He was making official what he had said many times before on other occasions. 

2. Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) took the position he did in order to save Islam from dividing into multiple religions after the events of Saqifa. After the events of Saqifa, when many of the prominent Sahaba forget, or pretended to forget what they witnessed at Ghadir Khum a few months before and what many of them witnessed multiple times and heard with their own ears, Imam Ali had limited choices at that point. He could have taken the position by force, which he was very capable of doing, as he had shown in many battles, but this would have destroyed the religion and divided it, because of the fact that Islam was very new at the time. The only other course was one of patience, which he chose to take. He outlined everything regarding this in Nahjul Balagha in the khutba of Shaqshiqiyya. I recommend you read that one to clarify this for you. It is clear to us. 

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7 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

1. Not only Shia claim this. Many Muslims who are not Shia accept the very obvious fact that the even of Ghadir Khum was Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) officially appointing Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) as his sucessor. He was making official what he had said many times before on other occasions. 

May I know many are "Many Muslims who are not Shia accept the very obvious fact that the even of Ghadir Khum was Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) officially appointing Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) as his sucessor."

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Salaam Ashvazdanghe

My apologies for giving you the impression of ‘PURPOSELY IGNORING the bold part’ (just to let you know that this is not my style to hoodwink people in debates. I came here to debate to share what I think is to my knowledge the Sunni version and learn how the Shia justify their version.)

Shia claim that it was by Allah Almighty’s Will Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was appointed as an IMAM to succeed Ummah after passing away of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah Almighty.

1) So is it possible for someone who is chosen as the IMAM of Muslims by the WILL OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY to opt out of IMAMATE and just become a Counsellor and say that he would “listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of their affairs”???????!

Was not Imam chosen by Allah Almighty duty bound to LEAD people and not to listen and follow other person chosen by people?

2) Won’t he be going against Allah Almighty’s WILL by listening and following other people?

 

 

Can you elaborate on this: Allah Almighty’s WILL? 

 

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13 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

May I know many are "Many Muslims who are not Shia accept the very obvious fact that the even of Ghadir Khum was Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) officially appointing Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) as his sucessor."

Let's start with Umar ibn Al Khattab who shook Imam Ali((عليه السلام))'s hand and said , Congratulations Ali, you have become the leader of all the Muslims. I can post the source from Sunni books, but it has been posted many times before. Quick Search will probably give it to you. If you can't find, I will repost.  

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37 minutes ago, power said:

Can you elaborate on this: Allah Almighty’s WILL? 

 

on the spur of the moment:
He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.
[Al-Taubah :33] 
 He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness. [ Al-Fath:28]
He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse. [ Al-Saff:9]

 
 
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8 hours ago, investigating said:

First Proof: (Absence of Announcemnt of Appointment in Qur'an)

The absense of the verse of Qur'an for the announcement of anyone Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his successor is the basis of my claim.

I will show you that there is one below,

8 hours ago, investigating said:

There is only two divinely appointed stations as mentioned in Qur'an since Adam (عليه السلام) till Prophet Muhammed (saww):

1. Nabuwwah 2: Risaalah

These have been sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Why only two? Why not Imamah?

That is a lie as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) tells Ibrahim (عليه السلام) that he has made him an Imam,

(2:124)

8 hours ago, investigating said:

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone faar astray. (4:136)

Had there been any station other than "Nabuwwah & Risaalah" to be divine in nature, ALLAH would have asked to believe in as well.

The verse says believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his Rasul (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Book. The Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is in the Quran (5:55), read what I said about the Verse of Wilayah in my posts above. And the Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also says that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is his successor.

8 hours ago, investigating said:

Third Proof: (Possibility of Dua for a common believer to make himself Imam of Pious)

There is a verse of Qur'an (25:30) indicating that any believer can pray to ALLAH to make them the Imams of Pious people. This implies that this station is nodivinely bestowed like that of Prohethood. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn't accept all of these Dua's.

8 hours ago, investigating said:

Fourth Proof: (Promising of Rulership to common Believers based on Good Deeds)

The worldy dominion and rulership has been promised to the believers based on Good Deeds in Quran 24:55. Had this rulership requires divine appointment it would not have been promised. As divine stations like prophethood are not promised based on Good Deeds. It is rather unconditionally bestowed to whomsoever Allah wills.

The word Caliph means successor, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ruled the Arabian Peninsula, So the Caliph would not only be the spiritual guide to the people, but also be the ruler of the Islamic Ummah.

8 hours ago, investigating said:

Fifth Proof: (No Proof of Claim of Divine Leadership attributed to Imam Ali based on Ghadir-e-Khumm)

Ali (عليه السلام) never claimed where He was appointed by ALLAH to lead Ummah based on Ghadir-e-Khum incident or Hadith-e-Manzilah (No proof for such claim from Shia or Sunni resources)

Everyone already heard all of these Hadiths, the Imam (عليه السلام) didn't need to claim anything, also the Imam (عليه السلام) even says in the Sermon of Shaqshaqiya, that his relation to the Caliphate was like the position of the axis to the hand-mill.

And we will see why Ghadir Khumm meant succession,

8 hours ago, investigating said:

Sixth Reason: (Absence of Divine Status even for so-called followers of Imam)

For more than 1200 yrs, no individual has claimed to be the final divine leader of Ummah. No one tried to convince the Ummah to believe in himself and follow himself based on his divine attributes. 

What's the point of divine successorship when Shia brothers themselve have to rely on fallible Marjas and narrators to follow their infallible Imams for more than 1200 yrs ago?

That final leader is the Imam of our time (atj), that's why no one else has claimed to be the last leader for the Ummah and actually have a big group of followers.

The Marjas (may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) keep them with us) research the hadith of the narrators, NARRATED from the Imams (may the peace and blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be upon them)

That's why Imam al Mahdi (atj) said "...Go back to our hadiths."

Now to prove that Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was ordered by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to say that Ali (عليه السلام) is the Wali of the Believers.

:bismillah:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

"O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people."

(5:67)

2 questions,

1. Was this Verse revealed on the Day of Ghadir Khumm?

2. How did they reveal this Verse during the Verse during the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Let's see,

03_171595_0000.jp2&id=FP171593&scale=4&rotate=01-LI.jpg

They narrated that they used to read the verse as "O' Prophet convey what has been revealed to you." That Ali (عليه السلام) is the Master of the Believers.

Now people will say Mawla means friend, if in this case it means friend, then why did Umar congratulate Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? And we will look at Hadith al Ghadir and see what the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said before he lifted the hand of Ali (عليه السلام). 

What is the source of Umar congratulating the Imam (عليه السلام)? Let's see,

msnda30_0000.jp2&id=waqmsnda&scale=4&rotate=02-LI.jpg

Umar said (to Ali (as)) Congratulations O' Son Of Abu Talib! You have become the Master of every Believer (male and female)."

That Hadith is weak, but it says there are others (same hadith, different chain) that are Sahih.

Now for the Sahih Hadith of Ghadir Khumm,

03_66019_0000.jp2&id=waq66017&scale=4&rotate=03-LI.jpg

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, "I have left behind 2 things, you will not go astray if you follow them, they are the Book of Allah and my Ahlulbayt." Then he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, "Do you know that I have more authority over the themselves (x3)?" The People said, "Yes." Then he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, "Who ever I am his Master, Then Ali is his Master."

If Mawla doesn't mean authority and leadership, then why does the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) remind the people that he has more authority over the believers than themselves?

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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

Let's start with Umar ibn Al Khattab who shook Imam Ali((عليه السلام))'s hand and said , Congratulations Ali, you have become the leader of all the Muslims. I can post the source from Sunni books, but it has been posted many times before. Quick Search will probably give it to you. If you can't find, I will repost.  

This incidence is very popular – oft-quoted in Shia websites

It should read “Let's start with Umar ibn Al Khattab who shook Imam Ali((عليه السلام))'s hand and said , Congratulations Ali, you have become the Mawla (Lord; and guardian, trustee, helper friend etc.) of all the Muslims.”  Mawla DOES NOT mean LEADER.

BTW - I like your signature Great Imam and Scholar of Islam
On his father's side Ja'far as Sadiq (رضي الله عنه) was the great-great-grandson of Hz.Ali (رضي الله عنه)
On his mother's side Ja'far as Sadiq (رضي الله عنه) was the great-great-grandson of Hz. Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) Ma Sha Allah

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10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

This incidence is very popular – oft-quoted in Shia websites

It should read “Let's start with Umar ibn Al Khattab who shook Imam Ali((عليه السلام))'s hand and said , Congratulations Ali, you have become the Mawla (Lord; and guardian, trustee, helper friend etc.) of all the Muslims.”  Mawla DOES NOT mean LEADER.

BTW - I like your signature Great Imam and Scholar of Islam
On his father's side Ja'far as Sadiq (رضي الله عنه) was the great-great-grandson of Hz.Ali (رضي الله عنه)
On his mother's side Ja'far as Sadiq (رضي الله عنه) was the great-great-grandson of Hz. Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) Ma Sha Allah

Then, in the context of the event of Ghadir Khum, what does 'Maula' mean ? By your definition ? 

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I think I had answered it by saying collectively – Maula can mean all these words simultaneously - Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper.

If you me to be specific for want to be specific for Ghadeer Khum I’ll opt for Guardian/Counsellor.

Allow me to repeat myself “This has been discussed exhaustively in preceding pages by very knowledgeable posters.” Please refer to those posts.

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

I think I had answered it by saying collectively – Maula can mean all these words simultaneously - Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper.

If you me to be specific for want to be specific for Ghadeer Khum I’ll opt for Guardian/Counsellor.

Allow me to repeat myself “This has been discussed exhaustively in preceding pages by very knowledgeable posters.” Please refer to those posts.

I know it 'can' mean any of those things. I am what it 'does' mean in the context we are speaking of. If you refuse to answer my question, then I will no longer post on this thread, as the debate cannot proceed while one side refuses to define terms.

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17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

 

on the spur of the moment:
He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.
[Al-Taubah :33] 
 He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness. [ Al-Fath:28]
He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse. [ Al-Saff:9]

 
 

I was hoping the elaboration that i asked for,  was in the context, where you claimed that:   Shia claim that it was by Allah Almighty’s Will Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was appointed as an IMAM to succeed Ummah after passing away of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah Almight

To my knowledge, I am not aware that:  Allah Almighty’s Will Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was appointed as an IMAM to succeed after the demise of the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Yes Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had blessed the household of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) With Imamate to lead the Muslim. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has Commanded  the Muslim Uhmaah to follow his  those who are in "Authority"  Yeah you may argue the interpretation, thats fine. but this is not my point.

Nowhere in our literature you will find that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had assured succession after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). 

There is no failure that Succession did not go in direction that it should have, because the directive is still in the Quran, and the Shias are adhering to the directive, it is the failure for those who have rejected the command. 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Mawla DOES NOT mean LEADER.

Already replied,

20 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Now people will say Mawla means friend, if in this case it means friend, then why did Umar congratulate Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? And we will look at Hadith al Ghadir and see what the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said before he lifted the hand of Ali (عليه السلام). 

and,

20 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

If Mawla doesn't mean authority and leadership, then why does the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) remind the people that he has more authority over the believers than themselves?

 

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1.       I disagree with you brother as there are verses mentioning the prophet as Imams guided by the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Thus the 3rd  status is Imams chosen by Allah  like Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام). (2:124)

2.       That is a lie as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) tells Ibrahim (عليه السلام) that he has made him an Imam,

 

 What is our Proof that Imamah is referred as General Leadership & not as a separate Divine Station in Qur'an?

 

PROOF-1

The Fulflillment of the Ibrahim (عليه السلام) Supplication

The answer lies in the verse of Qur'an {Surat Al-`Ankabut (29:27)} in which Allah fulfilled Ibrahim (عليه السلام) supplication:

And We ordained among his offspring prophethood and the Book (scripture) (29:27)

Allah says in another verse:

We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants PROPHETHOOD AND THE SCRIPTURE. [57:26]

Hence THIS concept of LEADERSHIP is exclusively for those who were given PROPHETHOOD & BOOK among the offspring of Hazrat Ibrahim AS & so likewise this SPECIFIC concept of Prophetic Leadership was also sealed just after our beloved Prophet saww departed!

In other verses of Quran like 21:73 you see that all of those who were from the generation of Ibrahim are referred to as Imams are prophets. (SEE THE VERSES BEFORE 2:173 FOR THE MENTION OF PROPHETS AMONG PROGENY OF IBRAHIM(عليه السلام)

And We made them IMAMS, guiding (mankind) by Our Command ……. (21:73)

 

PROOF-2

Yaqub (عليه السلام), the Decendant of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), who being called as Prophetic Imam was not bestowed Temporal Leadership in place of his son Yusuf (عليه السلام).

The verse (Ayah 21:73) where the qualities of the “Imaams” are no different from those of a normal Prophet. In addition, one of the “Imaams” (Yaqub) does not fulfill the conditions of Imaamah in Shiaism as when he traveled to Egypt under the rule of his son Yusuf, it would seem puzzling as to why Yusuf did not leave his post as King and hand it over to his father Yaqub who, according to the rules of Shiaism, would be the most able to carry out such duties. Instead, Yusuf is seen giving thanks to Allah in Qur’an.

 

PROOF – 3

Imamate as General Leadership of Fallible Leaders in Bani Israel

Two cases (Ayahs 28:5 and 32:24) where the Israelites have been mentioned as “Imaams”.  However, in the first case, the reference is clearly tangible material leadership on the earth. In the  second, the conditions of Imaamah in Shiaism are not met, as the appearance of the Imaams is tied  to the patience of the Israelites.

 

PROOF – 4

Allah never mentioned to believe in Imamah as a separate station as Criteria of Salvation anywhere in Qur’an in contrast to other beliefs:

Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

Where are the Imams?

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lordand [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

Where are the Imams?

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."(4:136)

Where are the Imams? 

 

PROOF – 5

People of Book never recognized any station other than Prophethood & Messengership to be Divine Authority

It is important to note that between the times of Musa (Alayhi Salam) and Isa (Alayhi Salam) there is more than enough evidence to prove that Imaamah as viewed in Shiaism did not exist during this period either.

 

People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making things clear to you, after a period

with no Messengers, lest you should say, ‘No one came to us bringing good news or warning.’

Someone has come to you bringing good news and a warning. Allah has power over all things.

(Quran 5:19)

 

Allah also addresses the People of the Book a few Verses before this, saying:

O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture (Quran 5:15)

 

With respect to the “Imaamah doctrine”, the researcher is immediately forced to ask the following questions:

• Why would Allah mention absence of Messengers if the weight of preserving the Message andcalling unto Allah actually rests with the Imaam?

• Why would Allah say that “now” the light has come to them, if supposedly there was an Infallible Imaam (the light from Allah) living among them even before the advent of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Quote

 

2.  There is no answer yet for my quoted questions that are mentioned below:                     

Where is the verse of Quran that states that the People can choose a prophet, leader, caliph, imam or successor of the prophet? Any example from quran of the caliph chosen by the people?

 

Your question would make sense if we considered “Leadership chosen by People” to be divinely appointed like Prophets. Since, you don’t need a verse of Qur’an to prove the leadership system of “Wilayat-e-Faqih” being non-divine in nature. We believe that temporal authorities for administrative affairs after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn’t need specific divine proof to establish its legitimacy.

But if you object: We don’t believe that temporal or administrative authority can be bestowed to “Non-Divine” authorities by any means but bestowed to 12 divinely appointed individuals among the progency of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Then the onus is on you to prove this from Qur’an alone. I am not expecting names but something like below:

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his messengers and 12 pure imams among the progency of messenger.  Don’t follow anyone but those imams as it is what Allah wishes from you. (Surah XYZ)

If we had such verse of Qur’an, we would happily be investigating hadith for more details of their identification.

Quote

Thus it confirms  that following the prophet and Imam chosen by Allah is the sunna of the prophet for correct religion.

This is your personal way of interpreting things. What shia tafseer you’re referring to?

If that’s the case we as a Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah is bound to follow Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ibrahim (عليه السلام) (in matter of sacrifice and pilgrimage) who according to YOU are both Imam and Prophet at the same time. Doesn’t it make us correct based on your own premise?

Quote

 

We have indeed revealed to you as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets after him, and [as] We revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon—and We gave David the Psalms— (4:163)

 

Which tafseer have you used to deduce the above speculation to prove your 12 Imams?

I have already explained that general leadership of Prophets doesn’t prove divine leadership of 12 or any number of Non-Prophet individuals unless it has a explicit proof from Qur’an.

By the way how did you include Noah (عليه السلام) who was prior to Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to be the follower of the creed of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)?

Quote

The above verse clarifies that the religion of Ibrahim has to be followed containing             12 leaders chosen by Allah . The verse mentions exactly 12 Names.

1 Nuh, 2 Ibrahim, 3. Ismail, 4. Ishaque, 5. Yaqub, 6. Alisbat, 7. Esa, 8. Ayub, 9. Yunus, 10. Haroon, 11. Suleman, 12. Dawood (عليه السلام)

Is Alisbat a name of one of the leaders among 12? Are you serious bro? I am not used to adopt insulting approach while discussing with our fellow Shia brothers. But don’t you think you are embarrassing yourself?

These are the TRIBES after Yaqub (عليه السلام). How can you consider the TRIBES after yaqub (عليه السلام) to be on the single name of leader to prove your point of 12?

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5.  If you think otherwise  then I like you to quote a verse please  that the prophet is the last imam.  wasalam

Why would I need to prove about something which is NOT proven to be a separate divine station other than Nabuwaah & Risaalah in Qur’an? (as proven in start of my post)

Leadership in general will continue after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), I don’t deny that. All I deny is the nature of such leaderhip being divinely appointed status like that of Prophethood.

The proof of which is found in Qur’an (25:74), where any common believer could pray ALLAL to make him the Imam of Muttaqoon.

Referring to this:

Quote

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn't accept all of these Dua's.

May Allah guide and forgive you for imposing your assumption on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The point is if ALLAH reveals one of the virtues of believers to pray for becoming an Imam, it actually nullifies the concept of that status being unconditional like Prophethood!

Imagine common believers imploring ALLAH to make them Prophets. Would that make sense for ALLAH to mention that DUA as one of the virtues of believers?

Quote

The Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is in the Quran (5:55), read what I said about the Verse of Wilayah in my posts above.

This ambigous verse thatapplies all belivers in general (not specifically to Ali(as)) serves no proof against the explicit proof for Divine Stations of Nabuwwah & Risaalah as the necessary belief for criteria of salvation.

 Referring to 24:55:

Quote

The word Caliph means successor, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ruled the Arabian Peninsula, So the Caliph would not only be the spiritual guide to the people, but also be the ruler of the Islamic Ummah.

That verse was used a proof against the concept of divine appointment of Caliphs after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Because divine appointment is never promised to common believer based on condition of good deeds. Divine appointments like Prophethood is conditionally bestowed without any promise made to common believers.

Quote

Everyone already heard all of these Hadiths, the Imam (عليه السلام) didn't need to claim anything, also the Imam (عليه السلام) even says in the Sermon of Shaqshaqiya, that his relation to the Caliphate was like the position of the axis to the hand-mill

What role Ali (رضي الله عنه) played to convince Ummah to believe in one of the most important Article of Faith of Islam as per Shia after Tauheed i.e. Imamah? If he was not supposed to do so, what is the role of a divinely appointment Imam than?

The fabricated sermon of Shaqshaqiyah (for us) doesn’t even hold proof to justify Ali (عليه السلام) being divinely appointed by Allah. If someone beliefs Ali (عليه السلام) should have been appointed as Caliph in place of Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) based on whatever reason other than divine appointment, that’s fine. I won’t bother convincing him to change his opinion. As that standpoint won’t make a difference in matter of fundamental article of faith of Islam.

Quote

And we will see why Ghadir Khumm meant succession

That event is open to intepretation, and we disagree with our Shia brothers on consider that event to be the day of announcement for divine succession of Ali (رضي الله عنه). A Hadith that is open to interpretation and vague in nature can’t be considered a proof for the divine appointment of anyone making it a fundamental article of faith of Islam. Therefore, I am not fond of discussing Hadith specifically to prove "Article of Faith" when Qur’an is explicitly slient about such.

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That's why Imam al Mahdi (atj) said "...Go back to our hadiths."

What proof do you have for the authenticity of such claim?

What's the point of the presence of Infallible Imam when you have to adopt the methodology adopted by Sunnis to rely on "Fallible Narrators" to know the narrations of your infallible Imams?

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12 hours ago, investigating said:

 

 What is our Proof that Imamah is referred as General Leadership & not as a separate Divine Station in Qur'an?

PROOF-1

The Fulflillment of the Ibrahim (عليه السلام) Supplication

The answer lies in the verse of Qur'an {Surat Al-`Ankabut (29:27)} in which Allah fulfilled Ibrahim (عليه السلام) supplication:

And We ordained among his offspring prophethood and the Book (scripture) (29:27)

Allah says in another verse:

We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants PROPHETHOOD AND THE SCRIPTURE. [57:26]

And We made them IMAMS, guiding (mankind) by Our Command ……. (21:73)

You are just ignoring the truth as described by the verse 2:124 where Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been raised to the status of Imam of mankind and he was already a prophet (عليه السلام).. Its not my mistake.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has clearly mentioned in  quran:

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا٧١وَمَنْ كَانَ فِي هَٰذِهِ أَعْمَىٰ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمَىٰ وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا٧٢

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly. And whoever is blind in this, he shall (also) be blind in the hereafter; and more erring from the way. (17:71-72)

12 hours ago, investigating said:

PROOF-2

Yaqub (عليه السلام), the Decendant of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), who being called as Prophetic Imam was not bestowed Temporal Leadership in place of his son Yusuf (عليه السلام).

The verse (Ayah 21:73) where the qualities of the “Imaams” are no different from those of a normal Prophet.

 

 They were prophet but they were chosen as Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in addition to their status of prophets like hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

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12 hours ago, investigating said:

 

PROOF – 3

Imamate as General Leadership of Fallible Leaders in Bani Israel

Two cases (Ayahs 28:5 and 32:24) where the Israelites have been mentioned as “Imaams”.  However, in the first case, the reference is clearly tangible material leadership on the earth. In the  second, the conditions of Imaamah in Shiaism are not met, as the appearance of the Imaams is tied  to the patience of the Israelites.

وَنُرِيدُ أَن نَّمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ

And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs. (28:5)

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ فَلَا تَكُن فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِّن لِّقَائِهِ ۖ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ هُدًى لِّبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ

And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel. And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. (32:23-24)

These imams were chosen by the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not by the people, the principle is confirmed here as well.

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12 hours ago, investigating said:

 

PROOF – 4

Allah never mentioned to believe in Imamah as a separate station as Criteria of Salvation anywhere in Qur’an in contrast to other beliefs:

Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

Where are the Imams?

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

 And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (3:84)

Do you deny that Ibrahim, Ishaque and Yaqub  (عليه السلام) were chosen as Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Edited by Muslim2010
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  • Veteran Member
12 hours ago, investigating said:

Then the onus is on you to prove this from Qur’an alone. I am not expecting names but something like below:

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his messengers and 12 pure imams among the progency of messenger.  Don’t follow anyone but those imams as it is what Allah wishes from you. (Surah XYZ)

If we had such verse of Qur’an, we would happily be investigating hadith for more details of their identification.

As no verse has been quoted so far that the people can choose a prophet../ caliph/successor/. imam/ divine. leader instead of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) thus i do not need to answer such conjectures.

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