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In the Name of God بسم الله

[DEBATE: Now open for comments] Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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32 minutes ago, layman said:

Because we are slave..

Remember the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم),when he was at the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...duringvmi'raj.  Did he addressed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as a friend...  and how Rasul presented himself (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to Allahbswt.

Your arguments are extremely weak. Are you saying master and friend are mutually exclusive?

So Allah wasn’t the Prophet’s friend? (God forbid)

We believe the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was not just Allah’s friend, he was His khalil (intimate friend). I suppose you don't believe this.

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The Hadith is long so I won't quote the whole thing, Narrated `Aisha: Fatima the daughter of the Prophet (ﷺ) sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of wh

Ahsantum brother I agree with you.  For me it was good for the forum to have this alternative method of one-on-one debate. Both members were respectful and I also appreciate that the other m

Thank you for reminding everyone. Members who want to help them out can send a PM to @Ansur Shiat Ali or @Cherub786. 

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3 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Your arguments are extremely weak. Are you saying master and friend are mutually exclusive?

So Allah wasn’t the Prophet’s friend? (God forbid)

We believe the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was not just Allah’s friend, he was His khalil (intimate friend). I suppose you don't believe this.

I am putting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to highest level ...he is my Rabb.  You go ahead address to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...  oh my Friend...forgive my sins.  Go ahead.  Say to Prophet too...address him...oh friend. Make that intention when you give salam to Prophet during your salah.  See how you will end up.

Has any of companions ever called Rasulullah during their lifetime...oh my friend.  How do they addressed the Prophet.   He is the Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  Unless you are inline with Aisha or Hafsa...they thought Muhammad is just a husband (higher than a friend) and conspired against him.  Surah Tahrim proved that.  And Aisha fought against Ali (عليه السلام), maybe she thought Imam Ali was just a friend. A little skirmishes here and there were acceptable.  Imam Ali is the Maula to all mukmineen, because Rasul made it clear during Ghadeer Khum.

The problem with you, you have mellowed down the meaning of Wali and that was for a purpose.  If you fully understood the term Wali, you won't pay any attention to Saqifah because Ghadeer Khum far superceded  Saqifah.

 

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28 minutes ago, layman said:

I am putting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to highest level ...he is my Rabb.  You go ahead address to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...  oh my Friend...forgive my sins.  Go ahead.  Say to Prophet too...address him...oh friend. Make that intention when you give salam to Prophet during your salah.  See how you will end up.

Has any of companions ever called Rasulullah during their lifetime...oh my friend.  How do they addressed the Prophet.   He is the Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  Unless you are inline with Aisha or Hafsa...they thought Muhammad is just a husband (higher than a friend) and conspired against him.  Surah Tahrim proved that.  And Aisha fought against Ali (عليه السلام), maybe she thought Imam Ali was just a friend. A little skirmishes here and there were acceptable.  Imam Ali is the Maula to all mukmineen, because Rasul made it clear during Ghadeer Khum.

The problem with you, you have mellowed down the meaning of Wali and that was for a purpose.  If you fully understood the term Wali, you won't pay any attention to Saqifah because Ghadeer Khum far superceded  Saqifah.

Notice you didn’t answer my question but just went off on your own little rant.

Sayyidina Abi Hurairah رضى الله عنه one of my favorite and most dear of the Sahabah, narrated:

أَوْصَانِي خَلِيلِي صلى الله عليه وسلم بِثَلاَثٍ الْوِتْرِ أَوَّلَ اللَّيْلِ وَرَكْعَتَىِ الْفَجْرِ وَصَوْمِ ثَلاَثَةِ أَيَّامٍ مِنْ كُلِّ شَهْرٍ

My Khalil - closest friend - (sall Allahu alaihi wasallam) advised me to do three things: To pray witr at the beginning of the night, to pray two rak'ahs of Fajr and to fast three days of each month.

Friendship is one of the attributes of Allah which you have, quite shockingly, denied.

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4 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Sayyidina Abi Hurairah رضى الله عنه one of my favorite and most dear of the Sahabah, narrated:

أَوْصَانِي خَلِيلِي صلى الله عليه وسلم بِثَلاَثٍ الْوِتْرِ أَوَّلَ اللَّيْلِ وَرَكْعَتَىِ الْفَجْرِ وَصَوْمِ ثَلاَثَةِ أَيَّامٍ مِنْ كُلِّ شَهْرٍ

My Khalil - closest friend - (sall Allahu alaihi wasallam) advised me to do three things: To pray witr at the beginning of the night, to pray two rak'ahs of Fajr and to fast three days of each month.

تم ہمیں چاہو یا نہ چاہو

یہ پریت نہ ہو گی کم

Seems like one sided friednship to me :hahaha:

" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is reported to have said: Behold I am free from the dependence of all bosom friends and if I were to choose anyone as bosom friend I would have taken Abu Bakr as my bosom friend. Allah has taken your companion as a friend.

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، وَوَكِيعٌ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ، إِبْرَاهِيمَ أَخْبَرَنَا جَرِيرٌ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي عُمَرَ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، كُلُّهُمْ عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ نُمَيْرٍ، وَأَبُو سَعِيدٍ الأَشَجُّ - وَاللَّفْظُ لَهُمَا - قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ، حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُرَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ أَلاَ إِنِّي أَبْرَأُ إِلَى كُلِّ خِلٍّ مِنْ خِلِّهِ وَلَوْ كُنْتُ مُتَّخِذًا خَلِيلاً لاَتَّخَذْتُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ خَلِيلاً إِنَّ صَاحِبَكُمْ خَلِيلُ اللَّهِ ‏"‏ ‏

 

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4 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Notice you didn’t answer my question but just went off on your own little rant.

Sayyidina Abi Hurairah رضى الله عنه one of my favorite and most dear of the Sahabah, narrated:

أَوْصَانِي خَلِيلِي صلى الله عليه وسلم بِثَلاَثٍ الْوِتْرِ أَوَّلَ اللَّيْلِ وَرَكْعَتَىِ الْفَجْرِ وَصَوْمِ ثَلاَثَةِ أَيَّامٍ مِنْ كُلِّ شَهْرٍ

My Khalil - closest friend - (sall Allahu alaihi wasallam) advised me to do three things: To pray witr at the beginning of the night, to pray two rak'ahs of Fajr and to fast three days of each month.

Friendship is one of the attributes of Allah which you have, quite shockingly, denied.

We are discussion on the context of succession and word Wali that used in the Qur’an...5:55

Ed

إِنَّما وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَ يُؤْتُونَ الزَّكاةَ وَ هُمْ راكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Waliyy and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor rate and they bow [in worship].

Is Wali means friend...khalil?

We want to emphasize the need to acknowledge that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasul (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as our Wali.  Futher emphasized during Ghadeer Khum.

All sahabahs must adhere to the Wali that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has chosen for all Muslim, including Abu Bakr and Umar and you.

Do you take Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Wali, as state in Qur'an and the event of Ghadeer Khum?

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11 hours ago, layman said:

Satan has slipped into..... to speak untruth about Imam Ali through your writings.

So be careful of your subtle writings.  And you are also follower of @Cherub786 who made Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as his friend,  rather than making Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as his Rabb (to be worshiped) and Wali that has authority on him.

Yes, indeed it will be my honour to follow Cherub786 as I find to be Good Believer, very knowledgeable and very articulate (Ma Sha Allah). May Allah Almighty bless with him everything good and make him His close friend – ameen

Having said that. Please look at the translations to the following ayahs:

Surah al Maaida 55

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/55/default.htm

Surah Yunus 62

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/10/62/default.htm

Wali can mean any of the following collectively and more: Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper etc

And read the following: I am sure now you will agree

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has narrated from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his saying: “Whoever recognizes Allah and glorifies Him prevents his mouth from (idle) speaking and his stomach from having food and busies himself with fasting and praying.” They said: “May our fathers and mother be sacrificed for you, O Messenger of Allah! Are they the friends of Allah?”

The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Be aware that the friends of Allah are silent; their silence is remembrance, their look is meaningful, they speak and their speech is full of wisdom, and they walk and their walk is full of blessing. If there had not been fixed periods of life for each, their spirits would not have remained in their bodies, because of their eagerness for paradise and fear of chastisement.”

https://www.al-islam.org/taqwa-piety-advice-ahl-al-bayt-sayyed-hussain-tooyserkani/55-friends-allah-saints

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12 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Why can’t Allah be a Friend, in addition to being Lord Who is worshiped and supreme authority to obey? How are these mutually exclusive?

friendship entails a mutual affection and therefore mutual feelings, emotions etc. Therefore Allah cannot be a friend because Allah does not have these "emotions" and "feelings".

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7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Sayyidina Abi Hurairah رضى الله عنه one of my favorite and most dear of the Sahabah, narrated:

 

For someone who continuously rants on the grading of hadiths, I am honestly surprised you actually quoted a man who despite only being around the Prophet for 4 years or something, somehow has narrated 4000+ more hadiths than Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)). Really, after all your preaching, you are going to quote abu hurairah? But then again, shame on me, I shouldn't be surprised. 

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14 hours ago, layman said:

The flip flops are done by muslims (from Muhajirun and Ansar ) at that time, not Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Letter 6.  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that these muslims from Muhajirun and Ansar selected their Caliphs by their own standard (not based on standard that Prophet had told them).  That style of election, they (Muhajirun and Ansar) considered it as to meet Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Pleasure.  Imam Ali never considered that election style satisfied by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Read what you qouted  "If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph, IT WILL BE DEEMED TO MEAN ALLAH'S PLEASURE."... that was according to Muhajirun and Ansar, but not according to Imam Ali.  Imam Ali just to let us know the mind set of general public from  Muhajirun and Ansars about their election style.

Layman, you are misrepresenting Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه)!!!!!!!

Read the letter 6 again. For once switch off your sectarian bias (just for some time.)

As I said before Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was one of the most Eloquent Decisive Rational Articulate speakers. He could say a lot in a very few words.  He chose his words very carefully and was never ambiguous.

Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Read the letter in 3 parts:

1) Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating that his own election to the Khilafaat was on the same basis as that of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. `Umar and Hz. `Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) – nothing more nothing less.

2) (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is telling Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan that the election or consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar – and those who were absent have no right to reject it – It means even if Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan is in Syria he has to accept it – nothing more nothing less.

3) If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating individual selected by the muhajirun and the ansar (may Allah be pleased with them all) WILL BE DEEMED TO MEAN ALLH’S PLEASURE!!!

DEEMED means - considered, judged, taken for granted, viewed as important, assumed, presumed, adjudicated, reckoned and many more relevant words

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) NEVER said what you are trying to imply.

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15 hours ago, layman said:

Sermon 3. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) reiterated his position in leading the Ummah.  But, that position was snatched by Abu Bakr.  Imam Ali (عليه السلام), put a curtain (temporary shield) from himself to Muhajirun & Ansars because of their making Abu Bakr as Caliph.  Imam Ali took the path of Sabr and not to revolt.

Sermon 205.  After what the Muhajirun and Ansar did to Imam Ali and selected the Caliphs by their own standard, Imam made it clear that he not in the interest to govern Muhajirun and Ansars.  But if Imam Alibwas forced (should lift the curtain that he put ealier)...they should be prepared for many painful events to come..  History has shown...Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had to battle and killed thousands of so called muslim followers from the Camps of Aisha, Muawiya and Khawarij. 

If Imam Ali (عليه السلام), was made to lead the Muslim Ummah after the wafat, all these divisions among muslims would have been avoided until now.  Muslims went astray and killed each other.

Sermon 92.  Imam Ali wanted to reiterate his past stand as in Sermon 3. He was happy not to lead the Muhajirun and Ansars as elected Caliph  and just be COUNSELLOR.  So Imam offer an option as a COUNSELLOR, if Caliph followed the correct Rulings of Islam, he will listen and obey.  If not, he will give advice.  But, he won't revoke.

Layman – If Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was DIVINELEY selected as an Imam for the Ummah

1) Could he “put a curtain (temporary shield)” and abandon his Divine Appointment?

Was he not religiously duty bound to remind everyone of his DIVINE APPOINTMENT? Rather then take path of sabr and not confront the wrong?!

Take the example of the Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) when he was asked by his uncle to tone down his opposition to the Mushrikeen of Makkah.

"O my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist from it until Allah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt."

Can a DIVINE APPOINTMENTED person relinquish or resign from this position, even if temporarily? And appoint himself as a Councillor or Advisor?

And that a Councillor or Advisor of those who have rebelled against Allah’s WILL?

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Layman, you are misrepresenting Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه)!!!!!!!

Read the letter 6 again. For once switch off your sectarian bias (just for some time.)

As I said before Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was one of the most Eloquent Decisive Rational Articulate speakers. He could say a lot in a very few words.  He chose his words very carefully and was never ambiguous.

Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Read the letter in 3 parts:

1) Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating that his own election to the Khilafaat was on the same basis as that of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. `Umar and Hz. `Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) – nothing more nothing less.

2) (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is telling Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan that the election or consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar – and those who were absent have no right to reject it – It means even if Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan is in Syria he has to accept it – nothing more nothing less.

3) If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating individual selected by the muhajirun and the ansar (may Allah be pleased with them all) WILL BE DEEMED TO MEAN ALLH’S PLEASURE!!!

DEEMED means - considered, judged, taken for granted, viewed as important, assumed, presumed, adjudicated, reckoned and many more relevant words

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) NEVER said what you are trying to imply.

My friend you seem to keep on reusing the same letter over and over, even though we explained the context of it to you over and over, but you still do not see reason

 

I also have stated that if you want to bring anything from Nahjul Balagah you must first prove it's authentic

 

But let's throw everything out the window, and just say for arguments sake! This letter is completely authentic, and what Imam Ali(عليه السلام) said means exactly what you said it means

 

So what?

 

the Imam(عليه السلام) cannot contridict himself! We see in "Many" sources that the Imam(عليه السلام) refers to those 3 as usurpers of his right, most famously The Sermon of Shaqshaqiya!

 

Oh and just so you didn't know, Nahjul Balagah is not among our 4 core books!

 

Rather it is as the compiler of the book named it: "The Peak of Eloquence"

 

I recommend that instead of cherry picking Hadiths from Nahjul Balagah out of context, I recommend that you buy and read the book and explore the true beauty of the tounge of Ameer Ul Momineen (عليه السلام)

 

JzkAllah, keep us in your prayers! 

 

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4 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Yes, indeed it will be my honour to follow Cherub786 as I find to be Good Believer, very knowledgeable and very articulate (Ma Sha Allah). May Allah Almighty bless with him everything good and make him His close friend – ameen

Having said that. Please look at the translations to the following ayahs:

Surah al Maaida 55

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/55/default.htm

Surah Yunus 62

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/10/62/default.htm

Wali can mean any of the following collectively and more: Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper etc

And read the following: I am sure now you will agree

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has narrated from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his saying: “Whoever recognizes Allah and glorifies Him prevents his mouth from (idle) speaking and his stomach from having food and busies himself with fasting and praying.” They said: “May our fathers and mother be sacrificed for you, O Messenger of Allah! Are they the friends of Allah?”

The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Be aware that the friends of Allah are silent; their silence is remembrance, their look is meaningful, they speak and their speech is full of wisdom, and they walk and their walk is full of blessing. If there had not been fixed periods of life for each, their spirits would not have remained in their bodies, because of their eagerness for paradise and fear of chastisement.”

https://www.al-islam.org/taqwa-piety-advice-ahl-al-bayt-sayyed-hussain-tooyserkani/55-friends-allah-saints

My friend, just a quick response in relation to the hadith that you have posted, Is Imam Sadiq  (عليه السلام) giving a definition of "Wali"? 

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Layman, you are misrepresenting Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه)!!!!!!!

Read the letter 6 again. For once switch off your sectarian bias (just for some time.)

As I said before Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was one of the most Eloquent Decisive Rational Articulate speakers. He could say a lot in a very few words.  He chose his words very carefully and was never ambiguous.

Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Read the letter in 3 parts:

1) Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating that his own election to the Khilafaat was on the same basis as that of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. `Umar and Hz. `Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) – nothing more nothing less.

2) (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is telling Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan that the election or consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar – and those who were absent have no right to reject it – It means even if Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan is in Syria he has to accept it – nothing more nothing less.

3) If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating individual selected by the muhajirun and the ansar (may Allah be pleased with them all) WILL BE DEEMED TO MEAN ALLH’S PLEASURE!!!

DEEMED means - considered, judged, taken for granted, viewed as important, assumed, presumed, adjudicated, reckoned and many more relevant words

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) NEVER said what you are trying to imply.

My friend, If I present a sermon from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from the same book, where he categorically rejects the Caliphate will you accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) Haq was stolen? 

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45 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

My friend you seem to keep on reusing the same letter over and over, even though we explained the context of it to you over and over, but you still do not see reason

 

I also have stated that if you want to bring anything from Nahjul Balagah you must first prove it's authentic

 

But let's throw everything out the window, and just say for arguments sake! This letter is completely authentic, and what Imam Ali(عليه السلام) said means exactly what you said it means

 

So what?

 

the Imam(عليه السلام) cannot contridict himself! We see in "Many" sources that the Imam(عليه السلام) refers to those 3 as usurpers of his right, most famously The Sermon of Shaqshaqiya!

 

Oh and just so you didn't know, Nahjul Balagah is not among our 4 core books!

 

Rather it is as the compiler of the book named it: "The Peak of Eloquence"

 

I recommend that instead of cherry picking Hadiths from Nahjul Balagah out of context, I recommend that you buy and read the book and explore the true beauty of the tounge of Ameer Ul Momineen (عليه السلام)

 

JzkAllah, keep us in your prayers! 

 

Brother MaisumAli Salaam

I am quoting from the books Shias revere - Majority of Shias I know take Nahjul Balagha as authentic. Obviously I cannot quote from Sunni books as you will not take them to authentic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahj_al-Balagha#cite_note-35

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/authenticity-nahjul-balaghah-sayyid-fadhil-milani

I do have copy of Nahjul-Balagha published by Dar al-Mahajja of Beirut, Lebanon – I do read it here and there – Good stuff in there – But I agree with you that it is not authentic

May Allah Almighty guide us all to the truth and keep the Ummah of His Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) safe from fitnah and fasad. By the way, I have one son and have named him Ali

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7 minutes ago, power said:

My friend, If I present a sermon from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from the same book, where he categorically rejects the Caliphate will you accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) Haq was stolen? 

Of course not my friend - because I don't take Nahul Balagha as authentic - There are conflicting sermons which I have pointed out. 

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35 minutes ago, power said:

My friend, just a quick response in relation to the hadith that you have posted, Is Imam Sadiq  (عليه السلام) giving a definition of "Wali"? 

My friend I just showing that Wali can mean any of the following collectively and more: Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper etc. I have shown this with different translations. Imam Jaffar asSadiq (رضي الله عنه) has used the term 'Friend of Allah'

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13 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Notice you didn’t answer my question but just went off on your own little rant.

Sayyidina Abi Hurairah رضى الله عنه one of my favorite and most dear of the Sahabah, narrated:

أَوْصَانِي خَلِيلِي صلى الله عليه وسلم بِثَلاَثٍ الْوِتْرِ أَوَّلَ اللَّيْلِ وَرَكْعَتَىِ الْفَجْرِ وَصَوْمِ ثَلاَثَةِ أَيَّامٍ مِنْ كُلِّ شَهْرٍ

My Khalil - closest friend - (sall Allahu alaihi wasallam) advised me to do three things: To pray witr at the beginning of the night, to pray two rak'ahs of Fajr and to fast three days of each month.

Friendship is one of the attributes of Allah which you have, quite shockingly, denied.

An attribute the Prophets can have, not you. Ibrahim (عليه السلام) did a lot to become a Khalil, while you are claiming to be Allah's friend out of nowhere.

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On 8/31/2020 at 10:50 AM, Muslim2010 said:

OP: relates to Succession of the prophet Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

Shia view: Method of selection: The right  of Almighty Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for appointing the prophets/ caliphs/ imams / leaders/ successors 

Past appointment of prophets doesn't hold proof for the succession of last prophet since prophethood has been sealed.

Where is the verse of Qur'an showing ALLAH appointed anyone as a succession to the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)?

On 8/31/2020 at 10:50 AM, Muslim2010 said:

OP: to Succession of the prophet Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

Sunni view: Method of selection  some may be selected  by the people (ie some prophets/ caliphs/ successors/ leaders can be chosen by the people)

Evidence: Nil (No verse of Quran has been presented as asked to justify this false claim)

OP clearly says that the succession is not possible in prophecy of Prophet Muhammed (عليه السلام) as it was sealed.

As political authority, do you need an evidence of Qur'an to consider the leader of Wilayat-e-Faqih to be legtimate enough?

Or do you have a proof of your last imam corraborating the leadership system of Wilayat-e-Faqih?

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Brother MaisumAli Salaam

W Salam!

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

I am quoting from the books Shias revere - Majority of Shias I know take Nahjul Balagha as authentic. Obviously I cannot quote from Sunni books as you will not take them to authentic.

Yes! Indeed we Shias highly revere Nahjul Balagha! And I understand why you wouldn't quote Sunni books, I get it

 

But my point was to explain that if there is a report that contradicts a established Fact, or established Sunnah, or Strongly Authentic traditions, then that report can be rejected

And as for my comment on Nahjul Balagha, I wanted to emphasize that the book isn't necessarily used for polemical means, we have the 4 Books that cover most topics which can be used, but as for Nahjul Balagha it "can" be a "History" lesson, but it is mostly there for reading into the Eloquence of Imam Ali(عليه السلام)

 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

I do have copy of Nahjul-Balagha published by Dar al-Mahajja of Beirut, Lebanon – I do read it here and there – Good stuff in there – But I agree with you that it is not authentic

That's good to hear! But what exactly do you mean by "Not authentic"?

From my "Shia" perspective, I don't consider any book authentic except for the Quran, but I do consider "Most" of Nahjul Balagha to be authentic

For you, I would understand why it wouldn't be authentic, which is cool by me, but I do believe that some of the Sermons of Nahjul Balagha can be found in Sunni books like Tarikh Al Tabari

If you wish, you can search up Nahjul Balagha + Al Islam, and you can scroll down to see which sources this sermon is listed in, and I do believe there is a good amount of Sunni sources in there

 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

May Allah Almighty guide us all to the truth and keep the Ummah of His Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him) safe from fitnah and fasad

Elahi Ameen!

 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

By the way, I have one son and have named him Ali

MashAllah! May Allah Bless you and your Family!

 

Please do send my Salam to him and to rest of your family!

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6 minutes ago, investigating said:

Past appointment of prophets doesn't hold proof for the succession of last prophet since prophethood has been sealed.

Where is the verse of Qur'an showing ALLAH appointed anyone as a succession to the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)?

OP clearly says that the succession is not possible in prophecy of Prophet Muhammed (عليه السلام) as it was sealed.

As political authority, do you need an evidence of Qur'an to consider the leader of Wilayat-e-Faqih to be legtimate enough?

Or do you have a proof of your last imam corraborating the leadership system of Wilayat-e-Faqih?

Salam un Alaykum!

Brother/Sister

In my humble opinion, I think this question is impossible to answer, simply because we have different ways of interpreting the Quran

I take my interpretation of the Quran from the AhlulBayt(عليه السلام) through the likes of: Imam Jafar e Sadiq(عليه السلام), Imam Baqir(عليه السلام), Imam Hasan Askari(عليه السلام) mainly

 

While you my friend take you interpretation of the Quran from the Sunnah, through the likes of: Ibne Kathir, Tabari, Suyuti, etc.

 

So you see, we have different interpretations, and it can become impossible to answer this question from one specific viewpoint

 

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4 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

While you my friend take you interpretation of the Quran from the Sunnah, through the likes of: Ibne Kathir, Tabari, Suyuti, etc.

 

I think, it's none of the above: most likely from one Maulana Muhammad Ali. Here are some samples of the translation and commentary.

1. Commentary on Quran [4:59]

 

59a. This verse lays down three important rules of guidance in matters relating to the welfare of the Muslim community and especially in those relating to affairs of State.

These are obedience to God and His Messenger in the first place; secondly, obedience to those in authority from among the Muslims; and thirdly, referring matters to God and His Messenger in cases of dispute with those in authority. God and His Messenger are thus the final authority. This is explained in the Ïadßth. “To hear and obey,” said the Prophet, “is binding so long as one is not commanded to disobey God; when one is commanded to disobey God, he shall not hear or obey (the authorities)” (B. 56:1 0 8 ) .

The words ulu-l-amr, meaning those in authority, have a wide significance, so that in different matters relating to the life of man different persons would be in authority.

Thus the commander of a section of the army was considered as one in authority (B. 65: iv, 11).

Temporal authorities are to be obeyed in secular matters while religious authorities must be obeyed in religious matters. It is especially in matters religious that differences would arise, in which case it would be necessary to refer the matter to God and His Messenger; in other words to the Qur’ån and Ïadßth. The great Imåm Ab∂ Ïanßfah is himself reported to have said: “Give up my word for the Word of Allåh; give up my word for the word of the Messenger of Allåh”.

As regards the secular authorities, the rule is laid down in the Ïadßt h that “the authority of those entrusted with it should not be disputed, unless,” the Prophet added, “you see an act of open disbelief in which you have a clear argument from Allåh” (B. 93:2 ) .

The words of the verse speak only of those in authority from among you, and the question therefore arises, what should the Muslims do in case they have to live under non-Muslim authority? In such a case the Prophet’s own example in his relations with Abyssinia is a sufficient guide. About a hundred of the companions were advised by the

Prophet to seek shelter in the Christian kingdom of Abyssinia where they lived for about ten years subject to the laws of the land. The rule is, however, laid down in clear words as already quoted that “when one is commanded to disobey God, he shall not hear or obey the authorities”.

 

2. Quran [2:257] Allåh is the Friend of those who believe — He brings them out of darkness into light. a And those who disbelieve, their friends are the devils who take them out of light into darkness. They are the companions of the Fire; therein they abide.

 

3. Quran [4.45] And Allåh best knows your enemies. And Allåh is sufficient as a Friend and Allåh is sufficient as a Helper.

 

4. Quran [4.123] It will not be in accordance with your vain desires a nor the vain desires of the People of the Book. Whoever does evil, will be requited for it and will not find for himself besides Allåh a friend or a helper.

 

5. Quran [5.55] Only Allåh is your Friend and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayer and pay the

poor-rate, and they bow down.

 

6. Quran [6:14] Say: Shall I take for a friend other than Allåh, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds and is not fed? Say: I am commanded to be the first of those who submit. And be thou not of the polytheists.

 

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5 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

An attribute the Prophets can have, not you. Ibrahim (عليه السلام) did a lot to become a Khalil, while you are claiming to be Allah's friend out of nowhere.

You didn’t understand my point. Khullah is friendship of a very high degree, intense intimacy. I am not claiming that for myself, but friendship known as Wilayah – if Allah accepts.

Allah is the Friend of the Believers. If you deny Allah is your Friend, that means Allah is your enemy, which may as well be true.

Edited by Cherub786
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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

You didn’t understand my point. Khullah is friendship of a very high degree, intense intimacy. I am not claiming that for myself, but friendship known as Wilayah – if Allah accepts.

Allah is the Friend of the Believers. If you deny Allah is your Friend, that means Allah is your enemy, which may as well be true.

U have to earn the friendship of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), can't try to prove your point by claiming to be the friend of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

:hahaha:

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5 hours ago, Guest Curious said:

think, it's none of the above: most likely from one Maulana Muhammad Ali. Here are some samples of the translation and commentary.

Sure! Go ahead! Whatever tafsir suits you, but I get my tafsir specially from Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

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22 hours ago, investigating said:

Past appointment of prophets doesn't hold proof for the succession of last prophet since prophethood has been sealed.

Where is the verse of Qur'an showing ALLAH appointed anyone as a succession to the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)?

Since the Quran is the  message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to the last prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).w. then the principle defined in the verses are final  and not liable to change thus the selection of prophets / leaders / caliphs / imams  by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not change. I hope you get my view.

The prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the last messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but he is not the last Imam and we believe there are 12 imams in the light of hadith of the prophet and there is no prophet after him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).w.

I do have asked about the verse for the non appointment of the successor of the prophet in this thread by sunis and they have not yet put any answer to my question.

wasalam

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23 hours ago, investigating said:

OP clearly says that the succession is not possible in prophecy of Prophet Muhammed (عليه السلام) as it was sealed.

As political authority, do you need an evidence of Qur'an to consider the leader of Wilayat-e-Faqih to be legtimate enough?

Or do you have a proof of your last imam corraborating the leadership system of Wilayat-e-Faqih?

The succession of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has to be decided as defined in the verses of Quran not by the some few people suggestion.

Wilayat faqeeh has nothing to do with the succession of the prophet s,a,w. As per my view 12th Imam is Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) and he is the successor of the prophet  and no else has this authority over shia.

Wialayat faqeeh is the concept of group of people in Iran and it has nothing to do with the basic belief and creed of shia.

wasalam

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وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّـهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّـهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّـهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا ﴿٦٤ فَلَا وَرَبِّكَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىٰ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَجِدُوا فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا ﴿٦٥

 And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful. (64) But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. (65)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:64

Quote

Those are the ones of whom Allah knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them but admonish them and speak to them a far-reaching word. (63) 

 

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14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Can a DIVINE APPOINTMENTED person relinquish or resign from this position, even if temporarily? And appoint himself as a Councillor or Advisor?

And that a Councillor or Advisor of those who have rebelled against Allah’s WILL?

 

Quote

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

دَعُوني وَالْـتَمِسُوا غَيْرِي; فإِنَّا مُسْتَقْبِلُونَ أَمْراً لَهُ وُجُوهٌ وَأَلْوَانٌ; لاَ تَقُومُ لَهُ الْقُلُوبُ، وَلاَ تَثْبُتُ عَلَيْهِ الْعُقُولُ، وَإِنَّ الاْفَاقَ قَدْ أَغَامَتْ، وَالْـمَحَجَّةَ قَدْ تَنَكَّرَتْ. وَاعْلَمُوا أَنِّي إنْ أَجَبْتُكُمْ رَكِبْتُ بِكُمْ مَا أَعْلَمُ، وَلَمْ أُصْغِ إِلَى قَوْلِ الْقَائِلِ وَعَتْبِ الْعَاتِبِ، وَإِنْ تَرَكْتُمُونِي فَأَنَا كَأَحَدِكُمْ; وَلَعَلِّي أَسْمَعُكُمْ وَأَطْوَعُكُمْ لِمنْ وَلَّيْتُمُوهُ أَمْرَكُمْ، وَأَنَا لَكُمْ وَزِيراً، خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ مِنِّي أَمِيراً!

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-92-leave-me-and-find-someone-else

Salam you purposelessly ignored the bold part just to prove your point but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said if he accepts people request then he won't  take advice from any of them because he just will follow holy Quran & Sunnah of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) but he knew that people will change their mind that they will reject any command from him as caliph so he warned them to choose another person then he will help the chosen caliph like previous  caliphs but he didn't  deny his right as caliph .

Quote

In short, when their insistence increased beyond limits, Amir al-mu'minin delivered this sermon wherein he clarified that "If you want me for your worldly ends, then I am not ready to serve as your instrument. Leave me and select someone else who may fulfil your ends. You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur'an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power. If you select someone else I would pay regard to the laws of the state and the constitution as a peaceful citizen should do. 

But Amir al-mu'minin declined to accede to their request whereupon these people raised a hue and cry and began to shout loudly, "O' Abu'l-Hasan, do you not witness the ruination of Islam or see the advancing flood of unruliness and mischief? Do you have no fear of Allah?" Even then Amir al-mu'minin showed no readiness to consent because he was noticing that the effects of the atmosphere that had come into being after the Prophet had overcome hearts and minds of the people, selfishness and lust for power had become rooted in them, their thinking affected by materialism and they had become habituated to treating government as the means for securing their ends. 

Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-92-leave-me-and-find-someone-else

 

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How do you prove that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was imam and khalifa after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))?
question
Can you prove that Imam Ali should have been the successor and khalifa after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))?
Concise answer

There is no doubt that in order for Islam to survive, it needs a keeper and guardian and individuals to deliver and express the teachings and guidelines of religion for the people, and carry them out. Since one of the reasons of creation is the guidance of mankind, Allah’s wisdom calls for Him to determine and appoint a leader for the safeguard and protection of religion after the Prophet’s demise, not tp leave them to themselves and their own minds which is usually under the domination of their desires.

 


Detailed Answer

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1162

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19 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has narrated from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his saying: “Whoever recognizes Allah and glorifies Him prevents his mouth from (idle) speaking and his stomach from having food and busies himself with fasting and praying.” They said: “May our fathers and mother be sacrificed for you, O Messenger of Allah! Are they the friends of Allah?”

The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Be aware that the friends of Allah are silent; their silence is remembrance, their look is meaningful, they speak and their speech is full of wisdom, and they walk and their walk is full of blessing. If there had not been fixed periods of life for each, their spirits would not have remained in their bodies, because of their eagerness for paradise and fear of chastisement.”

https://www.al-islam.org/taqwa-piety-advice-ahl-al-bayt-sayyed-hussain-tooyserkani/55-friends-allah-saints

Salam this describes people like Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & infallible Imams &their devoted companions like Abudhar (رضي الله عنه) , Miqdad (رضي الله عنه) , Salman Muhammadi [Persian] (رضي الله عنه) , Ammar Yasir (رضي الله عنه) that all of such companions  without any doubt accepted  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Wali in meaning of leader & caliph & real successor  of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) not just a mere friend .

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17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Layman, you are misrepresenting Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه)!!!!!!!

Read the letter 6 again. For once switch off your sectarian bias (just for some time.)

As I said before Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) was one of the most Eloquent Decisive Rational Articulate speakers. He could say a lot in a very few words.  He chose his words very carefully and was never ambiguous.

Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Read the letter in 3 parts:

1) Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating that his own election to the Khilafaat was on the same basis as that of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. `Umar and Hz. `Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) – nothing more nothing less.

2) (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is telling Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan that the election or consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar – and those who were absent have no right to reject it – It means even if Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan is in Syria he has to accept it – nothing more nothing less.

3) If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) is clearing stating individual selected by the muhajirun and the ansar (may Allah be pleased with them all) WILL BE DEEMED TO MEAN ALLH’S PLEASURE!!!

DEEMED means - considered, judged, taken for granted, viewed as important, assumed, presumed, adjudicated, reckoned and many more relevant words

Here Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) NEVER said what you are trying to imply.

That is your understanding on whatever you wrote above.

Below is my explanation.

1.  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was telling Muawiya that he (Muawiya) shall not opposed the people of Madinah (Muhajirun and Ansars) in their standard way of election.  Because Muawiya and his followers was opposed to to the election of Ali (عليه السلام) BUT was in full agreement with elections of Abu Bakr, Umar and Othman.  Even though people of Madina already selected Ali (عليه السلام).  Therefore, Muawiya should not oppose the election of Ali (عليه السلام) if Muawiya had agreed with the people of Medina standard of election for first 3 Caliphs.

2. And Muhajirun and Ansars were always considered their election standard means Allah’s pleasure.  If they didn't, Muhajirun and Ansars will revolt.  In the case of Caliph Othman, the people revolted.  But Ali (عليه السلام) made it clear, he was not partner those who revolted.  So Muawiya could not blame Ali (عليه السلام), unless Muawiya had insidious motives.  History showed Muawiya had insidious motives that resulted in battles of Siffin.

3.  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) didn't gave his allegiance to Abu Bakr until Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was forced.  He again reiterated that he would not followed the Sunnah of Abu Bakr and Umar when Abdul Rahman ibnu Auf asked him for the post of Caliphate.  Abdul Rahman selected Othman instead.  And Othman promised to follow the Sunnah of the two previous Caliphs, but he broken that promise, and people of revolted.  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) didn’t.  

 

People of Medina (Muhajirun and Ansars) always considered their election standard to mean correct and meeting Allah's Pleasure.  Meaning, if Ali rejected their demand to be a Caliph, they would have kill Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  

 

Imam Ali never agreed to election standard of people from Muhajirun and Ansars (people of madinah).  He was forced to give allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman AND then again was forced to accept the post of Caliph after Caliph Othman was murdered.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had NEVER forced himself to be elected by people of Medina to the post of Man-Made Caliphate. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was always forced to the situations (forced to accept the leadership of 3 Caliphs and forced to be the 4th Caliph) that he has to endure after the wafat of the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  People went astray and blinded, and could not see the virtue of Imam Ali as Wali (Guardian of Mukminin) and a true Intimate Friend of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (because he sacrificed all his life from childhood to help the Prophet in every establishment of Islam).  The one that performed the Islamic burial to the Prophet (عليه السلام) while others went for Saqifa for NON DIVINE election process.

Salam and Peace to you Ya Amerul Mukminin Ali ibnul Abu Talib.  May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward you and show to people in the hereafter that you are the true Maula after the Prophet and indeed you are Truly the Intimate Friend of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because you had helped the Prophet (عليه السلام) through your life span.

 

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21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

 

Wali can mean any of the following collectively and more: Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper etc

 

At least you accepted that Wali can mean the above.

The verse 5:55 mentioned about Wali...

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

Ali gave someone his ring in alms while he was in the state of rukūʿ in prayer. The Prophet (S) asked the beggar, "Who gave you this ring?" He replied, "That man during rukūʿ." Then Allah sent down the verse.

 

If you believe (not for Shias), the true meaning of Wali according as the following...Friend Guardian Protector Patron Ally Helper etc, AND muslims in Madina ignored their Wali during Saqifa Non Divine Election, what would classified those who elected among themselves to assume the Leadership of people in Medinah.

They just missed the chance to listen to advice of Qur'an (5:55) and because of that muslims went astray and we as muslims are suffering.

If we had followed the Wali right after the wafat, muslims will not go astray.

How many times the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told us that if we hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt, we will never go astray.  The Thursday night before the wafat of the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he asked for pen and paper so Muslims (me, you and us now and future people) will never go astray. But Umar and his followers stopped the Prophet (who is a Wali according to 5:55)... and said that Rasul was talking...(i could not write these words due to respect to our Prophet) and Quran is enough for us.  

The following day, the same persons went to Saqifa for NON Divine Caliphate Election.

What happened to the call for our Walis as written jn 5:55... Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ali (عليه السلام).

¥

 

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22 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Yes, indeed it will be my honour to follow Cherub786 as I find to be Good Believer, very knowledgeable and very articulate (Ma Sha Allah). May Allah Almighty bless with him everything good and make him His close friend – ameen.

And read the following: I am sure now you will agree

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has narrated from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his saying: “Whoever recognizes Allah and glorifies Him prevents his mouth from (idle) speaking and his stomach from having food and busies himself with fasting and praying.” They said: “May our fathers and mother be sacrificed for you, O Messenger of Allah! Are they the friends of Allah?”

The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Be aware that the friends of Allah are silent; their silence is remembrance, their look is meaningful, they speak and their speech is full of wisdom, and they walk and their walk is full of blessing. If there had not been fixed periods of life for each, their spirits would not have remained in their bodies, because of their eagerness for paradise and fear of chastisement.”

https://www.al-islam.org/taqwa-piety-advice-ahl-al-bayt-sayyed-hussain-tooyserkani/55-friends-allah-saints

That Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) description of True Friends of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will fit whom?  Let try Ali ibnul Abu Talib (عليه السلام).

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