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In the Name of God بسم الله

[DEBATE: Now open for comments] Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

والصلاة والسلام على خاتم النبيين

I would like to try my hand at a formal debate with Shi'ism. My purpose is to see if my arguments are solid and can hold up or if I need to refine and review them further. I propose the subject of succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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The Hadith is long so I won't quote the whole thing, Narrated `Aisha: Fatima the daughter of the Prophet (ﷺ) sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of wh

Ahsantum brother I agree with you.  For me it was good for the forum to have this alternative method of one-on-one debate. Both members were respectful and I also appreciate that the other m

Thank you for reminding everyone. Members who want to help them out can send a PM to @Ansur Shiat Ali or @Cherub786. 

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I am sure Ansur shiat Ali would LOVE to debate you he does offer challenges himself but i don’t know why he hasn’t answered to your post.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/10/2020 at 4:00 PM, Cherub786 said:

I would like to try my hand at a formal debate with Shi'ism. My purpose is to see if my arguments are solid and can hold up or if I need to refine and review them further. I propose the subject of succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

There are already many threads at SC where such matters have been discussed particularly for the verse of Wilyah and hadith of Ghadeer etc.

Edited by Muslim2010
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Let’s start with the Quran, in the Quran every single prophet left a successor behind, and the successors left a successor behind. An example are the disciples of Christ, the successor of Isa ((عليه السلام)) was Shimon ((عليه السلام)) and the successor of Shimon ((عليه السلام)) was Clementine ((رضي الله عنه)).

now you guys argue that the prophet didn’t leave a successor, now if the prophet didn’t leave a successor rationally you would come to the conclusion that’s there is no need for successor otherwise the prophet would’ve left a successor behind like the previous prophets. You argue that there must be successor despite the prophet not leaving a successor.... if that is the case then rationally you would come to the conclusion that the prophet did leave a successor behind (which he did and made it clear through analogy’s and pliantly), the prophet didn’t leave an state let alone his house with appointing someone so how could he leave an whole ummah ? 

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Posted (edited)

Quran is the basic source of guidance for religion then is the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

This raises a simple question here that an evidence of a people chosen caliph mentioned as example in quran may be asked prior to proceed further in any discussion.

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

It doesn't work if everyone jumps in and the topic gets diverted all over the place.

I propose that those who want to debate put their names forward.

@Cherub786 can then decide which (one) member he wants to debate with. Let's try and keep this structured. 

Hello, who do you recommend? Ansur Shiat Ali?

Can I also ask you to moderate the discussion when possible. Thanks

 

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

Ansur Shiat Ali, in sha Allah I will debate you on this subject.

Please state your position, that is your دعوى and then I will state my response to it.

:bismillah:

It is all over the Sunni books that talks about the event of Ghadir Khumm

 Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
 Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
 Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
 al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
 Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
 Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
 Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
 Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
 Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
 al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
 Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
 Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
 Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
 Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
 al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
 Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
 Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
 Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
 al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn”(‘Ali), v2, p462
 Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
 al-Mirqat, v5, p568
 al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
 Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
 Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217

So why do you follow Abu Bakr as the 1st Caliph?

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5 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

:bismillah:

It is all over the Sunni books that talks about the event of Ghadir Khumm

 Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
 Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
 Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
 al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
 Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
 Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
 Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
 Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
 Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
 al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
 Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
 Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
 Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
 Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
 al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
 Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
 Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
 Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
 al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn”(‘Ali), v2, p462
 Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
 al-Mirqat, v5, p568
 al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
 Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
 Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217

So why do you follow Abu Bakr as the 1st Caliph?

I'm getting the feeling I just selected the wrong person to debate with (though someone recommended you). At any rate, you have to first state your position in a debate so it is clearly defined what you will attempt to prove.

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I want to prove that following Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Ahlulbayt is part of the religion of Islam not just an opinion.

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14 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

I want to prove that following Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Ahlulbayt is part of the religion of Islam not just an opinion.

Well that is not the subject. The subject is purely related to the succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. Please state your position regarding this subject, then I will respond to it.

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Please state your position regarding this subject, then I will respond to it.

What do you mean, do you want me to raise a claim?

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3 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

What do you mean, do you want me to raise a claim?

More precisely, I would like you to state your position regarding the subject of Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. In other words, what do you believe about the succession to the Prophet? Let me demonstrate for you by stating my own position:

The Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله did not designate any individual to immediately succeed him upon his death.

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Well here is my position,

Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would be the successor after him.

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4 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Well here is my position,

Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would be the successor after him.

Okay, excellent. Now both our positions have been stated and we can shortly commence this debate. But before we do, I must explain that the burden of proof is on you to prove your position, and my position shall be assumed to be the default until you disprove it by proving your claim. That is because you are making a positive claim and I am making a negative one. The one who makes a positive claim has the onus on him to prove it and not the other way around. Do you agree? If so, you can commence by proving your position.

Edited by Cherub786
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Posted (edited)

I agree and I will begin by the name of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

:bismillah:

Also I forgot to say that following Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Ahlulbayt are part of the religion of Islam.

What I said above stands with what I say now, the event of Ghadir Khumm is all over the Sunni books and that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) will succeed the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

As for following Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is part of the religion and the message of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم),

The Quran says,

5_67.png

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

Sunni references that say that this was revealed so the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام),

Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67, v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali.

 Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of Atiyyah and Abu Sa’id al Khudri.

 Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authorities Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

 al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

 Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

 Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

 Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

 al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

 Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

and many more such as Ibn Mardawayh

Quran also says,

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.

Sunni references that say this verse was reaveled after Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was appointed.

al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19
History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75
al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13
Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80
al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213
Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115
Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authority Abu Sa’id Khudri.

What does Abu Bakr say after this happens,

Abu Bakr said:

"Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all believing men and women."

Sunni references:

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281
Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
Mishkat al-Masabih, by al-Khatib al-Tabrizi, p557
Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part3, p144
Kitabul Wilayah, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari
al-Musannaf, by Ibn Abi Shaybah
al-Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala
Hadith al-Wilayah, by Ahmad Ibn `Uqdah
Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra ... and more.

That's all for now.

Edited by Ansur Shiat Ali
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2 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

The Quran says,

5_67.png

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

Sunni references that say that this was revealed so the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام),

You have presented an Ayah of the Quran, but it does not, in itself, prove your claim that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم designated sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه his successor to succeed him immediately upon his death.

Therefore, I would like to give you another opportunity to present any Ayah of the Quran where there is an explicit declaration that sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه shall succeed Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم.

This Ayah which you have quoted, Ayat at-Tabligh as it is called: (a) it contains no specific instruction regarding the succession issue, (b) it does not mention sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه

It is merely a general statement instructing the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to convey that which Allah revealed to him

So you have not substantiated your position from this Ayah.

I see that you want to quote some Hadith, but I will first give you another opportunity to present any evidence from the Quran. Once it is established that there is no proof for your claim from the Quran itself, then I will proceed to address your arguments from Hadith narrations ان شاء الله

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4 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

You have presented an Ayah of the Quran, but it does not, in itself, prove your claim that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم designated sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه his successor to succeed him immediately upon his death.

That's why we have the Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to explain the verse of the Holy Quran, that's why I quoted the Hadith.

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Just now, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

That's why we have the Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to explain the verse of the Holy Quran, that's why I quoted the Hadith.

So can you confirm there isn't a single stand-alone Ayah which substantiates your claim? In other words, going strictly by the Quran, there is no clear evidence that sayyidina Ali bin Abi Talib رضى الله عنه was designated to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم upon the latter's departure from this world.

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49 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

So can you confirm there isn't a single stand-alone Ayah which substantiates your claim? In other words, going strictly by the Quran, there is no clear evidence that sayyidina Ali bin Abi Talib رضى الله عنه was designated to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم upon the latter's departure from this world.

Here you go,

5_55.png

Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow (in prayer) . 

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7 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Here you go,

5_55.png

Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow (in prayer) . 

Excuse me, but once again this Ayah does not substantiate your claim. Let me remind you as to what your claim is: "Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would be the successor after him."

In this Ayah there is: (a) no mention of succession, (b) no explicit mention of sayyidina Ali كرم الله وجهه

Let me give you a hint: You're not going to find any verse in the Quran which plainly states that sayyidina Ali كرم الله وجهه has been designated to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم after his death. There is simply no Ayah which is قطعي الدلالة in this regard, that is, there is no Ayah which definitively proves that sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه was designated to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

Therefore, I suggest you now acknowledge that you cannot prove your claim strictly from the Quran. Please acknowledge this fact than we can proceed to discuss the proofs you wish to present from the Riwayat.

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3 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Excuse me, but once again this Ayah does not substantiate your claim. Let me remind you as to what your claim is: "Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would be the successor after him."

In this Ayah there is: (a) no mention of succession, (b) no explicit mention of sayyidina Ali كرم الله وجهه

Let me give you a hint: You're not going to find any verse in the Quran which plainly states that sayyidina Ali كرم الله وجهه has been designated to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم after his death. There is simply no Ayah which is قطعي الدلالة in this regard, that is, there is no Ayah which definitively proves that sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه was designated to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

Therefore, I suggest you now acknowledge that you cannot prove your claim strictly from the Quran. Please acknowledge this fact than we can proceed to discuss the proofs you wish to present from the Riwayat.

Of course Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) isn't going to mention by name that's why we have the Hadith to show us the meaning of the verses

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1 minute ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Of course Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) isn't going to mention by name that's why we have the Hadith to show us the meaning of the verses

Why "of course"? If the issue is succession, then name has to be mentioned. Of course the name should be mentioned by Allah!

But you have now acknowledged that Allah did not mention the name of any individual to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

So we can safely conclude that you were unable to prove your claim from the Quran - the Words of Allah.

You are basing your entire claim on Hadith. So now I will proceed to examine your evidence from Hadith ان شاء الله

But the let the readers of this debate note a crucial point. According to Ansur Shiat Ali's claim, sayyidina Ali bin Abi Talib كرم الله وجهه was divinely selected to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but there is absolutely no mention of this in the Holy Quran. Isn't it strange that such an important fact is not in the Holy Quran, because if it were in the Holy Quran no Muslim, Sunni or otherwise, would have any choice but to accept it. So my question is why isn't such an important matter as the succession of sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه stated in the Holy Quran? I will continue my debate with Ansur Shiat Ali, but other members are invited to answer this point if they wish.

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Let's take another example, PRAYER, a pillar of Islam

Does the Quran state that we must pray Fajr prayers 2 Raka's?

No,

Most Sunnis believe the Quran is uncreated, is there a verse in the Quran saying that?

No.

So major things in Islam that we do every day, like prayer, is not named how we do it but we still do. Basic logic saying I can't use the Quran as my claim and back it up with Hadith.

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Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in the Quran,

35_39.png

It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be [the consequence of] his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss.

(35:39)

Does Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) name every successor on the Earth?

No.

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11 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Let's take another example, PRAYER, a pillar of Islam

Does the Quran state that we must pray Fajr prayers 2 Raka's?

No,

Most Sunnis believe the Quran is uncreated, is there a verse in the Quran saying that?

No.

So major things in Islam that we do every day, like prayer, is not named how we do it but we still do. Basic logic saying I can't use the Quran as my claim and back it up with Hadith.

Prayer is mentioned repeatedly and frequently throughout the holy Quran. The details are taken from the Sunnah, but the basic ordinance is present in the Quran.

We believe the Quran is the Word of Allah. That is more important to acknowledge than to specifically say the Quran is uncreated. Before the fitnah of the Mu'tazilah, Muslims did not deem it necessary to discuss whether Quran is created or uncreated, as long as it was acknowledged that it is the Speech of Allah. That is the basic creed and yes, it is present in the Quran (Surah 9:6).

So the two examples you gave have been answered that the essence of them is indeed found in the holy Quran.

But we have already decisively concluded that there is no trace of sayyidina Ali's succession to the Prophet عليهما السلام in the holy Quran, in either essence or with detail.

Therefore, I will now proceed to examine the evidence you want to present for your claim from the Hadith narrations. We can now close the Quran and put it back on the shelf.

Edited by Cherub786
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So its just ignorant and foolish to say that the Succession of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) isn't mentioned in the Quran, because its not mentioned by name. And answer the Question does Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) name everyone of the successors on the Earth? 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

So the two examples you gave have been answered that the essence of them is indeed found in the holy Quran.

So the Quran clearly says that the Fajr Prayer is 2 Raka's?

No.

If it is mentioned give the verse.

Edited by Ansur Shiat Ali
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1 minute ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

So its just ignorant and foolish to say that the Succession of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) isn't mentioned in the Quran, because its not mentioned by name. And answer the Question does Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) name everyone of the successors on the Earth? 

What was your claim? Let me repeat it once again:

"Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would be the successor after him."

Now tell me, in this claim of yours, is a name mentioned?

Yes, quite evidently we find a name mentioned in your claim. Therefore, in order to prove your claim, that name must be mentioned in your evidence, otherwise your claim will remain unproven.

Your counterargument is invalid because I never claimed in this debate the name of anyone who I believe to be one of the Successors that have been mentioned in 35:39

Remember, in a debate you must prove your claim. You cannot challenge your opponent to prove something he did not claim in the first place.

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5 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67, v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali.

 Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of Atiyyah and Abu Sa’id al Khudri.

 Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authorities Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

 al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

 Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

 Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

 Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

 al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

 Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

and many more such as Ibn Mardawayh

Quran also says,

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.

Sunni references that say this verse was reaveled after Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was appointed.

al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19
History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75
al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13
Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80
al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213
Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115
Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authority Abu Sa’id Khudri.

What does Abu Bakr say after this happens,

Abu Bakr said:

"Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all believing men and women."

Sunni references:

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281
Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
Mishkat al-Masabih, by al-Khatib al-Tabrizi, p557
Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part3, p144
Kitabul Wilayah, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari
al-Musannaf, by Ibn Abi Shaybah
al-Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala
Hadith al-Wilayah, by Ahmad Ibn `Uqdah
Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra ... and more.

That's all for now.

Now my friend we have closed the Holy Quran, kissed it, and placed it back respectfully on the shelf because you were unable to show a single Ayah that sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه was designated to succeed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

Now we are moving on to the evidence you claim to have on the Hadith.

Here I would like to inform you about another important principle of debate. When you cite a reference from a book as evidence, you must quote the actual content of that reference. Merely referencing the name of the book and the page number is insufficient. The onus is on the one who presents a piece of evidence from any text to quote the actual content of that text that is being relied upon as evidence.

So please begin by quoting the actual content of any one of these references (I recommend your strong reference) which proves your claim.

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The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), ‘Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه.

Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
 Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
 Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
 al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
 Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
 Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
 Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
 Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
 Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
 al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
 Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
 Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
 Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
 Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
 al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
 Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
 Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
 Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
 al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn”(‘Ali), v2, p462
 Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
 al-Mirqat, v5, p568
 al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
 Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
 Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217

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5 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

I request you to please quote the original Arabic matn of this Hadith

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  • Haji 2003 changed the title to [DEBATE: ONLY CHERUB & ANSUR CAN POST] Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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