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In the Name of God بسم الله

Popular Shia Sheikh says that Imam Ali(as) is equal to the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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10 hours ago, 786:) said:

Do you also say this to the endless zakireen who spend their entire lectures trying to prove Imam Ali’s superiority over the other Prophets? Or this conjecture only used when one tries to rank personalities you have sectarian obligations towards?

As I said earlier, you cannot digest even simple matters. Its the problem of your digestion which becomes "saghat".

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It's just Modarresi being Modarresi. This Sunni Defense channel are doing a whole series on him, which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. This is the full video: Around the 1

He said the truth. Let me elaborate his message although I haven't seen the video. And I would like to build my argument on the basis of just one verse of Qur'an: Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he is a slave of Muhammad (S).   and this isn’t fake humility and nor is it a slave to the mere “function” of prophethood as prophethood (nubbuwat and risalat) in

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37 minutes ago, Cool said:

I think this is exactly the case.

Those who are posting ranks of superiority would one day face questions like that the quality of wilayah is getting inferior generation after generation. And the most inferior of all is the Imam of our time (ajtf) na'uzobillah. 

There is no concept of "ulil azm" in Imams. They all are sabireen, sadiqeen, tahireen etc equally. It is only the "had e adab" which gives the status of "syed ushshuhada" to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), otherwise they all are shaheed and we are no one to judge which one is superior shaheed and which is inferior.

 

What are you on about? Mahdi Moderasi made a claim, that claim is being discussed. You were quite forthcoming with your opinion until it was shown to be illogical.

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31 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Mahdi Moderasi made a claim, that claim is being discussed. You were quite forthcoming with your opinion until it was shown to be illogical.

What he said is that Ali (عليه السلام) is "Nafs e Rasool". Do you disagree?

What he said is that Ali (عليه السلام) is equal to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in every virtue thats make him superior to all other Prophets, do you diagree with that? 

 

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26 minutes ago, Cool said:

What he said is that Ali (عليه السلام) is "Nafs e Rasool". Do you disagree?

What he said is that Ali (عليه السلام) is equal to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in every virtue thats make him superior to all other Prophets, do you diagree with that? 

 

You are trying to muddy the waters here, the issue is: is Imam 'Ali (a) equal to the Prophet (s) in every single way - no one believes that except MM and a few guys on the internet who have shown time and again that they don't understand basic logic.

Even by Moderasi's own approach to hadith this doesn't make any sense because there are numerous narrations to the contrary, though he would probably claim that they are part of the 5% of hadith that are fabricated

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3 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

is Imam 'Ali (a) equal to the Prophet (s) in every single way -

 

3 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

You are trying to muddy the waters here,

Let me quote him:

"What does it means, it means that he SHARES every single one of the merits and virtues & attributes of the holy Prophet. What is that mean? It makes Ali equal to the prophet in every conceivable way. Off course it is not that simple, though is it. Because our opponents, the followers of khulafa, have tried to twist and turn this virtue of Ali ibn Abi talib as they do with everyone of his other virtues. Ali is the self of Rasoolullah, Ali is equal to Rasoolullah, end of story, end of discussions.

We do not subscribe to this view that the prophets are better than everybody else. We believe that there could be people who are not prophets but could be better than the prophets. 

Who?? Ali ibn Abi Talib. If Ali is equal to the Prophet that makes him better than all of the other Prophets because our Prophet is better than the other Prophets."

Points: 

1. Ali (عليه السلام) is the self of Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), therefore he is not only equal to him in every merit, virtue & attribute but also better than all other Prophets.

2. There could be people who are not Prophets but could be better than Prophets. 

To turndown his claim, you need to prove:

1. That Ali (عليه السلام) is not the self of Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

2. Or that a self could be inferior in merit, virtues & attributes of any person.

Wish you best of luck.

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:bismillah:

 

Quote
وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ {4}

[Shakir 112:4] And none is like Him.
[Pickthal 112:4] And there is none comparable unto Him.
[Yusufali 112:4] And there is none like unto Him.

It is our belief about God Almighty that He has no كُفُو (equivalent, comparable or likeness). 

One can question that is there anyone equivalent to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? And if he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has any equivalent in merits, attributes & virtues, who else is there except Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? Or do we believe that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has no  كُفُو either? 

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These were some of the various reasons why certain people became his enemies and started the current of enmity towards the person who personified the virtues and merits of Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).).

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/causes-enmity-imam-ali-light-nahjul-balaghah-sayyid-ali-reza-wasii

 

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Posted (edited)

@Cool @Logic1234 brothers, its worthless preaching these people. they will only emphasize on the same points again and again. despite that i posted that Narration in which Mawla Zain Ul Aabideen (asws) (Ali) and Mawla Muhammd Al Baaqir (asws) (Muhammad),

Imam (asws) demonstated the people That "Ali" is "Muhammad" and "Muhammad" is "Ali". even after reading that they're still emphasising on thier points.

 

why don't these people understand that let "Muhammmad" be a Million times superior than "Ali" and let "Ali" be a million times superior than "Muhammad". 

 

the eventual conclusion will be, "Muhammad" is "Ali" and "Ali" is "Muhammad"


and similary all of them are "Muhammad"

 

 

Ali (asws) is the Medium between Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and His creatures

The Holy Prophet (saws) said,


O Ali (asws), you are from me and I am from you. Your flesh is joined to my flesh, and your blood to my blood. And you are the medium in what is between Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and His creatures after me. So the one who fights against your ‘Wilayah’ has cut-off the Medium which is in between himself and Allah (عزّ وجلّ), and he will spend his time in the Levels of Hell.

O Ali (asws), Allah (عزّ وجلّ) cannot be recognised except by me and by you. The one who fights against your ‘Wilayah’ has fought against the Lordship of Allah (عزّ وجلّ).


O Ali (asws), you are the Great Banner of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) after me in the earth, and you are the Great Pillar in the Day of Judgement. 


So the one who will be covered by your' Wilayah’ (protected) would have succeeded, because the Reckoning of the creatures is to you (asws) and what is with them is to you, and the ‘al-Mezan’ (Divine Scale) is your Scale, and the Bridge is your Bridge, and the Pausing will be your Pausing, and the reckoning will be your Reckoning. So the one who comes towards you will be saved, and the one who opposes you has deviated and will perish.

Our Allah (عزّ وجلّ) be Witness (to this), our Allah (عزّ وجلّ) be Witness (to this)!’ 


Then he (saws) descended.

Kitab al sulaym part VI

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On 8/11/2020 at 12:04 AM, randomly curious said:

Summary of one lengthy Hadees from al-Qatra: Jabar Jafi said to Imam Mohammad Baqir (asws):


‘Thanks to Allah Who bestowed us Ne’mat of your Marifat, and understanding of your Faza’il, and ability of your obedience, and love of your lovers, and animosity to your enemies.’


 Imam (s.a.) said: 


“O Jabar! Do you know what is Marifat? First, Marifat is Testification of Tauheed, second Marifat of al-Ma’ani, then third Marifat of Abwaab, fourth Marifat of Imam, then fifth Marifat of Arkaan, then sixth Marifat of Naqaba, then seventh is saying of Allah: 

“(O My Habeeb saws) Say: If the sea were ink for the Words of my Rabb, the sea would surely be consumed before the Words of My Rabb are finished, even if We bring the like of that (sea) to add thereto.” (Kahf 109) 

 

And if all the trees on the earth become pens, and the sea ink with seven more seas to add, the Words of Allah would not finish, surely Allah is Mighty Wise.” (Luqman 27) 

 

O Jabar! Testification of Tauheed means Marifat of Allah that He is Qadeem & Ghaib, sight and wisdom can not get (see) Him but He knows (sees) sight and wisdom, and He is Lateef and Khabeer, His Batin is Ghaib as He defined His Self. And Marifat of Ma’ani means that only we (s.a.a.) are Meanings and Expresser of His Power (Qudrat), He separated us from His Noor-e-Zaat, and gave us authority over the affairs of servants, so we do whatever we wish with His permission, and whatever we wish Allah wishes the same, and whatever is our intention Allah’s intention is the same, and Allah Azza wa Jalla sent us down on this earth, and made us Mustafa among His servants, and made us Hujjat on His cities. So who denied anything and rejected, certainly he turned his face away from Allah, and hated His Ism (Name), and denied His Ayaat and His Anbiya andRasool…………

 

Jabar said: ‘Our companions (Shias) are very few. Ya Ibne Rasool Allah (asws)! I think that there might be hundred or two hundred in the whole city, and between thousand to two thousand on the whole earth, rather my estimate is more that hundred thousand all around the earth.

 Imam Baqir (asws) said:

“O Jabar! Your estimate is wrong and your opinion is faulty, those people are Muqassireen, and they are not your (Shia brothers).” 


Jabar said: 


‘Ya Ibne Rasool Allah (asws)! Who are Muqassireen?’ 


Imam (s.a.) said: “Those who fall short of Marifat of Imams (asws) and Marifat of Amr and Rooh, which Allah has made obligatory on them.”…………

Jabar said: ‘Ya Syyedi 
Soalallaho Aalaika! Then the majority of Shias is Muqassireen. Which companions I know, they don’t seem to be like that.’ Mawla (asws) said:

“I know better, call them 
tomorrow.” When they came Imam (s.a.) asked: “Do they testify that Allah does whatever He pleases, and commands whatever He wishes, and no one is there to stop His Order, and no one can reject His Decision, and no one is there to question Him what He does, and creations are answerable to Him.” 

They all testified that it is True. Jabar said: ‘Alhamdo Lillah, they are having wisdom, and Marifat, and intelligence.’ Imam (s.a.) said: “Don’t hurry, you do not know. Ask them: Do we (asws) have Qudrat (Power) that Ali bin Hussain (asws) can become his son Mohammad Baqir (asws), and Mohammad Baqir (asws) can become him?”


They all became stationary and silent. Jabar said to those people: 

“Don’t you love your Imam (asws)?’ 

They started staring silently with doubt. Imam (asws) said: 


“O Jabar! Didn’t I tell you that leave them on their condition.” Then Imam (asws) said: “What has happened to you, why you don’t speak?” 

 

They started looking each other’s face, then said: ‘Ya Ibne Rasool Allah (asws)! We do not have the knowledge, you can teach us.’ 


Imam Zainul Abideen (asws) asked those people while looking towards Imam Baqir (asws): “Who is he?”


 They replied: ‘Your son.’ Then asked: “Who am I?” They replied: ‘Ali bin al-Hussain (asws).’


 Imam (asws) said one Word, then Mohammad (asws) became his father Ali (asws), and Ali (asws) became his son Mohammad (asws).

 Imam Zainul Abideen (asws) said:

“Why you are astonished at the Qudrat of Allah? I am Mohammad (asws) and Mohammad (asws) is I.”

 


And Imam Mohammad Baqir (asww) said:

“O people! Why you are astonished at the Amr of Allah? I am Ali (asws) and Ali ((عليه السلام).) is I,

 

we all are One and from one Noor, and our Arwah (Spirits) are from Amr of Allah, our first is Mohammad (asws), and our middle is Mohammad (asws) as well, and our last is Mohammad (saws) as well, and we all are Mohammad (saws).” 

 

When those people heard this, they all put their heads in Sajdah, and said: ‘We believe in your Walayat with heart and openly, and testify your Faza’il and Attributes.’ 

 

Imam Zainul Abideen (asws) said:

 

“O people! Raise your heads. Now you are Arif, successful, wise, and completely reached ones (in Marifat). Now do not tell any Muqassir with weak faith whatever you have seen from me and Mohammad Baqir (asws), because then they will say bad things to you and belie you.” 


They promised and left with perfect guidance.

 

(al Qatra, V 1, P 328)

 

before anyone starts loosing thier minds, the sajdah was to Allah (عزّ وجلّ). just similarly the magicians of fir'awn said 

 

And the magicians fell down in Sajdah saying, ‘We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa!’ [20:70]

Here's that Narration by the way.

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On 8/10/2020 at 11:12 PM, randomly curious said:

Abdullah bin Masood came to Rasool Allah (saws) and after Salaam said: Ya Rasool Allah (saws) show me Haqq so I can see it with my eyes.” He (saws) said:


“ O ibne Masood! Enter this room and look what you can see.” He said: I entered and saw that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is busy praying and he is saying humbly in Raku o Sajood:

 

 ‘Ya Allah! for the sake of Your Nabi (saws) forgive the sinful among my Shias.’ So I came out to tell about it to Rasool Allah (saws) but I saw him (saws) praying as well and saying humbly in Raku o Sajood: 


‘Ya Allah! for the sake of  Your Wali Ali (s.a.) forgive the sinful among my Ummah.’

 I was perplexed, when he (saws) finished his prayer, said to me: ‘Do you do Kufr after Eman?’

 

 I replied: ‘No. Ya Rasool Allah (saws) I swear by your life, I did not see 
anything except that Ali (عليه السلام) who was asking Allah for the sake of your high status, and then saw you and you (saws) was asking Allah for the sake of his (عليه السلام) high status. So I do not know between you both who have higher status near Allah?

@Cool, the one who tried to create a difference between them,

 

Rasool Allah (saws) asked him,

do you do kufr after emaan?

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Posted (edited)

The Holy prophet (saws) is asked for a drink.

 


Abaan from Sulaym who said (it has been) narrated to me from Ali Bin Abu Talib (asws), and Salmanar, and Abu Dharrar and Al-Miqdadar, and narrated by Abu Al-Hajaaf Dawood Bin Abu Awf Al-Awfy (from another chain) being reported from Abu 
Saeed Al-Khuzry who said,


'Rasool Allah (saws) came up to his daughter Fatima (asws), while she was seated, igniting a fire under her saucepan in order to cook a( meal for) her Family, and Ali (asws) was sleeping in an area of the house with Al-Hassan (asws) and Al-Husayn (asws) sleeping besides him.

 

So Rasool Allah (saws) sat down next to his daughter and she was igniting the fire under her saucepan, not having a servant for her, when Al-Hassan (asws) woke up. He (asws) came up to Rasool Allah (saws) and said: ‘O father, quench my thirst’. So Rasool Allah (saws) took him and went to the goat, milked it and came with its milk – and on the milk was some froth –Al-Hassan (asws) started drinking it.


Al-Husayn (asws) woke up and said, ‘O father (saws), quench my thirst’.


The Prophet (saws) said:

‘O my son, your brother, and he is older than you, has asked me to quench his, before you did’.


 Al-Husayn (asws) said: ‘Quench my thirst before his’. The Rasool Allah (saws) tried to appease him to let his brother drink before him, and Al-Husayn (asws) would not agree.


Lady Fatima (asws) said:


 ‘O father, it is as if Al-Hassan (asws) is more beloved to you than Al-Husayn (asws)?’ He (saws) said: 


‘It’s not like that, I love them both, and both of them are equal to me, it’s just that Al-Hassan (asws) asked to be quenched first, and I, and you, and these two, and this, the one lying on the bed (Ali) will be in the Paradise at one place and of one (same) status’.

 (Sulaym) said, ‘And Ali (asws) was sleeping, uninvolved of anything from that’.


Kitaab al Sulaym part IV P. 5

Edited by randomly curious
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On 8/11/2020 at 8:03 AM, Mahdavist said:

I know such names are common brother, but what is common among muslimeen is not always legit.

Anyhow brother @786:) has shared his reference. Thanks for the information brother.

I know brother, 

but I am just surprised you never heard of this saying from the pulpit.  

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Posted (edited)

عن أبيه علي ابن أبي طالب عليهم السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ما خلق الله خلقا أفضل مني ولا أكرم عليه منى

From 'Ali bin Abi Talib (a), he said: the Messenger of Allah (s) said: Allah has not created a creation better than me nor more honourable than me

'ilal al-shara'i', v.1, p.5

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1140_علل-الشرائع-الشيخ-الصدوق-ج-١/الصفحة_43

There are many narrations like this, there is no debate on this issue, the people who think there is one are literally just making it up.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

From 'Ali bin Abi Talib (a), he said: the Messenger of Allah (s) said: Allah has not created a creation better than me nor more honourable than me

who is "the Messenger of Allah" here? isn't he "Muhammad"?

 

2 hours ago, randomly curious said:

why don't these people understand that let "Muhammmad" be a Million times superior than "Ali" and let "Ali" be a million times superior than "Muhammad". 

 

the eventual conclusion will be, "Muhammad" is "Ali" and "Ali" is "Muhammad"


and similary all of them are "Muhammad"

As for Shia sources, it has been mentioned in:

- Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 25, p. 363

- ibid, vol. 26, pp. 3, 5, 16

- ibid, vol. 36, p. 399

- Al-Ghaybah by al-Nu'mani, p. 85

"Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

 "i am "Ali" and "Ali" is me. We all are from the same light and our soul is of the command of Allah. The first of us is "Muhammad" and the middle one among us is "Muhammad" and the last one of us is "Muhammad" and we all are "Muhammad".

Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 26, p. 16

 

Imam Ali (asws) has said in many Narrations,

 

i am "Muhammad" and "Muhammad" is me.

 

and no one has replied yet to @Cool about Ali (asws) being the nafs of Muhammad (saws).

 

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Guest Mustafa

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) himself states in the Peak of Eloquence that he only had one teacher - Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Diaz said:

Sayid Ali Shobayri is the one that debated with Muhammad Hijab.  Right?

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Sayid Ali Shobayri is the one that debated with Muhammad Hijab.  Right?

I don’t know brother, can’t find any vids.

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8 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

There are many narrations like this, there is no debate on this issue, the people who think there is one are literally just making it up.

So the discussion is about equality not about superiority. 

You must take back your words you said about me or either share any hadith which says there is no equal to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in virtues & attributes. Or either you must prove what has been asked earlier:

16 hours ago, Cool said:

To turndown his claim, you need to prove:

1. That Ali (عليه السلام) is not the self of Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

2. Or that a self could be inferior in merit, virtues & attributes of any person.

 

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15 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

:bismillah:

 

It is our belief about God Almighty that He has no كُفُو (equivalent, comparable or likeness). 

One can question that is there anyone equivalent to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? And if he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has any equivalent in merits, attributes & virtues, who else is there except Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? Or do we believe that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has no  كُفُو either? 

I think this has settled the discussions. Good job Logic.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Cool said:

So the discussion is about equality not about superiority. 

You must take back your words you said about me or either share any hadith which says there is no equal to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in virtues & attributes. Or either you must prove what has been asked earlier:

 

You see this is your problem, you can't think logically, equality and superiority are part of the same discussion.

Not only are there multiple narrations, many from Imam 'Ali (a) himself which address this issue, there is also a total consensus of the scholars past and present. All that you have are your own interpretations and faulty conclusions, there is no point having this discussion because, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, you are just arguing for the sake of it.

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2 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

You see this is your problem, you can't think logically, equality and superiority are part of the same discussion.

I can see your problems too brother. How can it be a part of same superiority discussions when we are talking about something which is limited to virtues, merits, attributes? 

Apart from 3:61 which introduces Ali (عليه السلام) as nafs of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), we have other sahih narrations, specifically following:

Ali & I are from the same light.

Ali & I are from the same tree.

Ali is from me & I am from Ali.

He who loves Ali loves me and he who hates Ali hates me.

Etc.....

Your problem is that you are not confirming what is the commonly accepted by Shia i.e., Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is superior to all other Prophets. If you accept this, what makes him superior? 

Your problem is that you are not accepting an important virtue of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) the he has personified the virtues and merits of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

So what is your opinion on these questions:,

Is there anyone exist Sadiq like Prophet? 

Is there anyone exist who is Ameen like Prophet?

Is there anyone who is Shuja' like Prophet?

Is there anyone who asked "Salooni" like Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did? 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is witness over Imams as per 22:78, is there anyone who has the honor of becoming witness over prophethood (13:43)? 

I can ask 1000's of questions for which your answer would be no one other than the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

 

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3 hours ago, 786:) said:

Explain the difference between equality and superiority? I'll wait and I'm looking forward to all sorts of mental gymnastics.

The Light is the same in essence,  just the brightness may not be same level.

Prophet and Imams are where the Light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will pass through and shine.  And all us can see that Light and we known the Essence of that Light is same truth.

When the Light is about to shine from the source (from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) through simultaneously two personalities that exist at that exact same time, then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will shine more Brightness through the Prophet.

Rasulullah is city of Ilm  and Ali is the gate.  The knowledge is the Light, comes through the Prophet and pass through the gate and to us.

If the Essence of Prophet is not the same as Ali, the Light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) cannot passes through both of them to us. But, when both sit in a room together, the Light will pass through the Prophet and the Ali and to us.

So when  Ali (عليه السلام) became Imam, after the wafat of the Prophet, the Light that passed through him is brighter than Hassan and Hussain.  When each one of the Ahlulbayt become Imam at his time, the Light is brightest as compared to other living humans.

But, we cannot say that the Light in Imam Ali is superior to Light in Imam Jawad.  The Essence of the Light that passes through the Prophet and then Imams is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

For some of us, our heart is closer to certain Imams due to our personal inclination and understanding of events, we see more Light shines from that Imam to us.  But, if we our heart is closer to All Ahlulbayt..we see them as 14 brightness Stars that shine in the Universe.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, layman said:

For some of us, our heart is closer to certain Imams due to our personal inclination

Right and that’s why you are even willing to fight for Moderrasi’s bizarre claim. If your heart was closer to Rasoolallah you would not entertain such a wild position even with clear cut narrations.

My personal inclination is that everyone should naturally be closest to Rasoolallah as he was chosen by our Creator to deliver Islam. However, I understand this may not hold true in the Shia circles.

Edited by 786:)
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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Right and that’s why you are even willing to fight for Moderrasi’s bizarre claim. If your heart was closer to Rasoolallah you would not entertain such a wild position.

My personal inclination is that everyone should naturally be closest to Rasoolallah as he was chosen by our Creator to deliver Islam. However, I understand this may not hold true in the Shia circles.

You want to be closer to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Alhamdulillah.

Shias want to be closer to Rasulullah.  In addition, Shias and other muslims also want to be closer to those whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasulullah wanted us to be closer to.


[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.
[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray

All of us, all muslims wanted to be with whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed favors.

[Shakir 2:285] The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.

We make no difference between Messengers, but it is known that there is a rank between them.

We make no difference on the purpose of Nubuwwah and Imamat (Rasul and Ali)...is to guide the Ummah to Allahbswt.  But we also know there is a rank between them.  Rasul is the City of knowledge and Ali is gate.  WE have to go through gate and enter the city in reaching to the Real Knowledge .

Now, some people would say Ali is also the city of knowledge because the gate is made to surround the city.  Or the gate is part of the City.  Therefore, the gate is also the city.  i am not into this discussion.

Edited by layman
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Posted (edited)
On 8/11/2020 at 10:25 AM, 786:) said:

It is narrated in Al-Kafi that someone asked Imam Ali (as): “Are you a messenger?” Imam Ali (عليه السلام) replied “Woe on you, I am one among many slaves of Muhammad (saw)”.

فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَ فَنَبِيٌّ أَنْتَ فَقَالَ وَيْلَكَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدٌ مِنْ عَبِيدِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص‏

source: https://www.al-islam.org/articles/what-ghuluw-seyyid-mohsen-rizvi

You can also circle back to the verse of the Quran 33:6. I don’t think slave in the same sense as slave of Allah.

Knock knock whos there? Wahabi Lol

This narration where Ali (عليه السلام) said i am a slave of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)is weak as said by Allamah Majlisi in Mirat Ul Uqool. So it wom't count as a hujjah till proven.

He can't be "one of the slaves" come on.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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On 8/12/2020 at 11:35 PM, Ali_Hussain said:

عن أبيه علي ابن أبي طالب عليهم السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ما خلق الله خلقا أفضل مني ولا أكرم عليه منى

From 'Ali bin Abi Talib (a), he said: the Messenger of Allah (s) said: Allah has not created a creation better than me nor more honourable than me

'ilal al-shara'i', v.1, p.5

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1140_علل-الشرائع-الشيخ-الصدوق-ج-١/الصفحة_43

There are many narrations like this, there is no debate on this issue, the people who think there is one are literally just making it up.

No one said:

Ali (عليه السلام) is equal to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in every sense.

Nauzobillah. Thats kufr.

We are saying, they both share Ismah, And so many Fazail like Knowledge. 

So when scholors say Ali is equal to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Ali (عليه السلام) is just like Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), they don't mean status of both is same Nauzobillah.

 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

No one said:

Ali (عليه السلام) is equal to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in every sense.

Nauzobillah. Thats kufr.

We are saying, they both share Ismah, And so many Fazail like Knowledge. 

So when scholors say Ali is equal to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Ali (عليه السلام) is just like Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), they don't mean status of both is same Nauzobillah.

 

No, read the thread they are claiming that they are essentially the same person and there is no difference between them. 

Which scholars say that they are equal? Mahdi Moderasi is not a scholar in any linguistically acceptable sense.

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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On 8/11/2020 at 9:00 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

You've got the wrong narration, although the one you've quoted is 'dubious' as well.

 

That argument thag we can't find in books of people in chain is worhtless.

For example i read, that Sheikh Sadooq wrote 200+ books.

How many of then you have today?

Not even 20?

Even lost a book "Bab Madina tul Ilm" and that left us with The Four books only instead of five.

So this argument is nothing. 

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6 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

No, read the thread they are claiming that they are essentially the same person and there is no difference between them. 

Which scholars say that they are equal? Mahdi Moderasi is not a scholar in any linguistically acceptable sense.

We dont need scholors to make our aqaid (beliefs)

If anyone does, thats taqleed in aqeedah which is haram.

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47 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

We dont need scholors to make our aqaid (beliefs)

If anyone does, thats taqleed in aqeedah which is haram.

Ok if that is your position, but the people who hold this belief should state that it is an extremely fringe belief and is in no way representative of the vast majority of Shias past and present.

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