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In the Name of God بسم الله

Popular Shia Sheikh says that Imam Ali(as) is equal to the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

You would have to be out of your mind to accept that hadith. Have you actually looked it up?

No, it actually make sense. Every Imam, during his life time, has represented as Muhammad. This is what the two way relation dictates:

"Innahum minni wa ana minhum"

"Hussaino minni wa ana min Hussain"

I don't know how would you try to understand "wa ana minhum" or "wa ana min Hussain" part!

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It's just Modarresi being Modarresi. This Sunni Defense channel are doing a whole series on him, which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. This is the full video: Around the 1

He said the truth. Let me elaborate his message although I haven't seen the video. And I would like to build my argument on the basis of just one verse of Qur'an: Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he is a slave of Muhammad (S).   and this isn’t fake humility and nor is it a slave to the mere “function” of prophethood as prophethood (nubbuwat and risalat) in

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8 minutes ago, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

fyi - to you it may be "dubious" for whatever reason. 

Hadith Kisa ( Hadith of the cloak) 

"The event of revelation of this verse as reported by Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari, one of the most reliable companions of the Holy Prophet has been mentioned in "Awalim al Ulum" by Shaykh Abdullah bin Nurullah Al-Bahrayni and is reproduced here:-.....

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 33:33]  https://quran.al-islam.org/

Now using intellect- If I were to open a Hawza ilmia and bring the top five Jurists to teach. I will say, If it were not for these five I would not have created this Hawza.  If it were not for the current Imam(عليه السلام) or the Imam Mahdi according to non shia' present or to be born is not a point of consider here. - the fact that End of the world will not come till the Imam(عليه السلام) - means your and the everyones live is due to him(عليه السلام). This might require little perspective or you might call it mental gymnastics. 

You've got the wrong narration, although the one you've quoted is 'dubious' as well.

 

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5 minutes ago, Cool said:

No, it actually make sense. Every Imam, during his life time, has represented as Muhammad. This is what the two way relation dictates:

"Innahum minni wa ana minhum"

"Hussaino minni wa ana min Hussain"

I don't know how would you try to understand "wa ana minhum" or "wa ana min Hussain" part!

It makes sense to you, so it must be true? Do you ever question anything?

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8 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

It makes sense to you, so it must be true?

:) I can understand your problem. Nothing makes sense to you actually. Neither "kullona Muhammad", nor "innahum minni wa ana minhum" nor "wa ana min Hussain".

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You've got the wrong narration, although the one you've quoted is 'dubious' as well.

Similar concept was present their. But Try not to focus on the narration- The Concept of Creation for Muhmmad Al- Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) 

 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {30}

[Shakir 2:30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.
[Pickthal 2:30] And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
[Yusufali 2:30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

--------

Tell me, Khalif was destined for Earth ( The Earth itself , and whatever was in the Earth and the support system sun. moon air water to sustain the Kalif ) - put on your think cap and things will become clear to you. 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

@786:) where are you getting this notion of being 'slaves' of the prophet from? 

Surely ubudiyyah is only to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

It is narrated in Al-Kafi that someone asked Imam Ali (as): “Are you a messenger?” Imam Ali (عليه السلام) replied “Woe on you, I am one among many slaves of Muhammad (saw)”.

فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَ فَنَبِيٌّ أَنْتَ فَقَالَ وَيْلَكَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدٌ مِنْ عَبِيدِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص‏

source: https://www.al-islam.org/articles/what-ghuluw-seyyid-mohsen-rizvi

You can also circle back to the verse of the Quran 33:6. I don’t think slave in the same sense as slave of Allah.

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 I have even seen Shemrani  (wahhabi dude) say on titans tv (youtube) that although Shias speak about imam Ali more and it is a “religion” based around him, the Prophet’s rank is greater in our “religion”.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 786:) said:

You can also circle back to the verse of the Quran 33:6. I don’t think slave in the same sense as slave of Allah.

Quote

Allah chooses His Prophets
اختيار الانبياء

From his (Adam’s) progeny Allah chose prophets and took their pledge for his revelation and for carrying His message as their trust. In course of time many people perverted Allah’s trust with them and ignored His position and took compeers along with Him. Satan turned them away from knowing Him and kept them aloof from His worship. Then Allah sent His Messengers and series of His prophets towards them to get them to fulfil the pledges of His creation, to recall to them His bounties, to exhort them by preaching, to unveil before them the hidden virtues of wisdom and show them the signs of His Omnipotence namely the sky which is raised over them, the earth that is placed beneath them, means of living that sustain them, deaths that make them die, ailments that turn them old and incidents that successively betake them.

Allah never allowed His creation to remain without a Prophet deputised by Him, or a book sent down from Him or a binding argument or a standing plea. These Messengers were such that they did not feel little because of smallness of their number or of largeness of the number of their falsifiers. Among them was either a predecessor who would name the one to follow or the follower who had been introduced by the predecessor.

Quote

 

The Prophethood of Muhammad
مبعث النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

In this way ages passed by and times rolled on, fathers passed away while sons took their places till Allah deputised Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) as His Prophet, in fulfilment of His promise and in completion of His Prophethood. His pledge had been taken from the Prophets, his traits of character were well reputed and his birth was honourable. The people of the earth at this time were divided in different parties, their aims were separate and ways were diverse. They either likened Allah with His creation or twisted His Names or turned to else than Him. Through Muhammad (S) Allah guided them out of wrong and with his efforts took them out of ignorance.

Then Allah chose for Muhammad, peace be upon him and on his progeny, to meet Him, selected him for His own nearness, regarded him too dignified to remain in this world and decided to remove him from this place of trial. So He drew him towards Himself with honour. Allah may shower His blessing on him, and his progeny.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-descrive#allah-chooses-his-prophets

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, crashproof said:

Well, personally i think that the reason that the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is superior to Imam Ali(عليه السلام) isn’t just because he’s a prophet and Ali isn’t, i think there are various merits the Prophet had that made him superior to Imam Ali.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he is a slave of Muhammad (S).  

and this isn’t fake humility and nor is it a slave to the mere “function” of prophethood as prophethood (nubbuwat and risalat) in the 12ver theology is lesser than Imammat!.
 

So Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is basically making the point that he is not equal to Muhammad (S) in any capacity whatsoever!

Kindly note: In twelve theology Imamat is of a higher function than the function of nubuwat and risalat, and in 12ver theology Prophet (S) is not only a Prophet, and not only a Messenger, but also an Imam.

Edited by eThErEaL
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

@786:) where are you getting this notion of being 'slaves' of the prophet from? 

Surely ubudiyyah is only to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

Wait!!!  You never heard of that narration where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) declares himself as a slave to the Prophet (S)? it is so commonly mentioned (in Shia centers I mean).
 

You know a common Islamic name is AbdurRasul?  Right???  Like one of my uncle’s name was Abdul Rasul.  

unless you are wahabi. 
 

@Mahdavist.   I thought you knew better.  Honestly. 

Edited by eThErEaL
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Kindly note: In twelve theology Imamat is of a higher function than the function of nubuwat and risalat, and in 12ver theology Prophet (S) is not only a Prophet, and not only a Messenger, but also an Imam.

Salam only prophet Muhammad (pbu) & prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) were Imam that prophet Muhammad (pbu) had superiority to all prophets (عليه السلام) but also he said his relation between him & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is like relation of prophet Musa (عليه السلام) toward prophet Harun (عليه السلام) except that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is not a prophet that prophet Harun (عليه السلام) was successor of prophet Musa(عليه السلام) that  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was just  an Imam but prophet Muhammad (pbu) was both Imam & prophet that also prophet Muhammad (pbu) said that he is Sayed (master) of prophets (Awlia) & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is Sayed (master) of successors (Awsia) .

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 “Whosoever I am his Master, Ali is his Master, too.”

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/32859/Muhammad-S-Master-of-Prophets

Position in Shi'a Beliefs

According to the Shi'a school of thought, Muhammad (s) was a prophet and messenger, and he was the seal of the Prophets (Khatam al-Nabiyyin), with no prophet after him. The Prophet (s) was one of the five Prophets of Great Stature and brought a noble religion to humanity from God. The Prophet (s) is the first of 14 Infallibles (a). He was infallible not only in receiving and delivering the revelation, but in all aspects of his life. Many miracles have been reported from the Prophet (s), the greatest among which was the Qur'an. (see: The Prophet's miracles)

Quote

The most beloved servants before God are those who are the most beneficial to the servants of God

 Payandeh. Nahj al-fasaha, p. 163, Hadith No.86

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Prophet_Muhammad_(s)#Successor_of_the_Prophet_.28s.29

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, crashproof said:

The video

Popular Sheikh Mahdi Modarresi stated that Imam Ali shares every single one of the virtues and attributes of the Holy Prophet. He then moves on to say that this makes Ali equal to The Prophet in every way.

Im a shia, but please tell me that this is ridiculous. We don’t believe that Ali is equal to the Prophet at all right? 

Salam

actually you might've mis-understood him.

If he mean equal in status then Nauzobillah thats not correct

But he would've mean Ismah , Knowledge etc and thats what you can except as a shia from a shia scholor. Unless its proved that he's deviant.

No one would dare to say Status of ALi (عليه السلام) is equal to that of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Wait!!!  You never heard of that narration where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) declares himself as a slave to the Prophet (S)? it is so commonly mentioned (in Shia centers I mean).
 

You know a common Islamic name is AbdurRasul?  Right???  Like one of my uncle’s name was Abdul Rasul.  

unless you are wahabi. 
 

@Mahdavist.   I thought you knew better.  Honestly. 

I know such names are common brother, but what is common among muslimeen is not always legit.

Anyhow brother @786:) has shared his reference. Thanks for the information brother.

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8 hours ago, 786:) said:

It is narrated in Al-Kafi that someone asked Imam Ali (as): “Are you a messenger?” Imam Ali (عليه السلام) replied “Woe on you, I am one among many slaves of Muhammad (saw)”.

فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَ فَنَبِيٌّ أَنْتَ فَقَالَ وَيْلَكَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدٌ مِنْ عَبِيدِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص‏

source: https://www.al-islam.org/articles/what-ghuluw-seyyid-mohsen-rizvi

You can also circle back to the verse of the Quran 33:6. I don’t think slave in the same sense as slave of Allah.

@AmirioTheMuzzy could you kindly share what you disagreed with here?

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9 hours ago, 786:) said:

It is narrated in Al-Kafi that someone asked Imam Ali (as): “Are you a messenger?” Imam Ali (عليه السلام) replied “Woe on you, I am one among many slaves of Muhammad (saw)”.

فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَ فَنَبِيٌّ أَنْتَ فَقَالَ وَيْلَكَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدٌ مِنْ عَبِيدِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص‏

source: https://www.al-islam.org/articles/what-ghuluw-seyyid-mohsen-rizvi

He is indeed an Abd of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in the sense that he obeyed him with heart & soul throughout his life time. And this is the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 80:
مَّن يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا

Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.
(English - Shakir)

But he (Imam Ali (عليه السلام)) is "Nafse Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)" as per 3:61 which none of you can deny. 

I am "abdun min abeede Amiril Momineen (عليه السلام)".

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

@AmirioTheMuzzy could you kindly share what you disagreed with here?

The source is very correct, so I will remove my disagree. But the context of you using it is wrong, as you said. We must not conflate obedience 'servitude' to Rasulullah (s) with submission to God. We submit in the sense of 'worship' to only the Creator. But, by obeying the Messenger (s) and Vicegerents (a), we are obeying God. In this way, someone can equally say they are slaves to the Imams (a). There are undoubtedly such hadith, so I'm not sure why you singled out ones pertaining to being a slave of Rasulallah (s).

Basically, this doesn't answer the question on whether the Prophet (s) is superior to the Imams (a) in status, merits, authority, etc.

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Kindly note: In twelve theology Imamat is of a higher function than the function of nubuwat and risalat, and in 12ver theology Prophet (S) is not only a Prophet, and not only a Messenger, but also an Imam.

This is partially true, but there are differences of opinion within 12er theology on this issue.

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1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

This is partially true, but there are differences of opinion within 12er theology on this issue.

There is also a position in 12er thought where the Imams are below all the anbiya.

There is also a position where they are above all the prophets except the Ulil Azm whom are greater than the Imams.

The most dominant 12er position is that Imams are lower than Rasoolallah, but higher than all the remaining Prophets.

This position introduced by Moderrasi is news to me. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, 786:) said:

There is also a position in 12er thought where the Imams are below all the anbiya.

There is also a position where they are above all the prophets except the Ulil Azm whom are greater than the Imams.

The most dominant 12er position is that Imams are lower than Rasoolallah, but higher than all the remaining Prophets.

This position introduced by Moderrasi is news to me. 

Yes, these are the stances. Completely agreed. Edit: aside from Modaressi's stance obviously, which is completely unheard of.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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After ghadeer, it has been very clear that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is our mowla just like Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is our mowla. No question of superiority or inferiority at all. We have to obey our mowla. To assume one is superior mowla itself is absurd and would damage the foundation of the concept of wilayah. 

There is a "had e adab" in place only which gives the impression of superiority or inferiority. For me, the question itself is absurd because all 12 Imams represents Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

It is famous in Sunni texts, that our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have tasted two types of martyrdom, one is by poison (as Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was poisoned) other is by sword (as Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) martyred through it). It is that very "minniyat" of Hasnain (عليه السلام) that scholars of ahlul sunnah have concluded their martyrdom as the martyrdom of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

I can share the lecture of Allama Tahir ul Qadri on that subject. 

Unfortunately, I am disappointed with the understanding of majority of people here that they cannot come even close to "hussaino minni", how can they understand "wa ana min hussain"!!! That's what I am thinking.

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

To assume one is superior mowla itself is absurd and would damage the foundation of the concept of wilayah. 

I find this to be a poor construct to denounce the superiority of the Holy Prophet. So Allah is not superior to Imam Ali either? He is the first order of Wilayah.

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Just now, 786:) said:

find this to be a poor construct to denounce the superiority of the Holy Prophet. 

You keep trying to say that prophet is superior to his nafs. For me, this is absurd.

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It is only absurd because you have taken it out of context. This is all metaphorical and not literal. You can’t criticize the Salafis for their literalist view when you do the same thing when it favors your views.

You will call your child your nafs as well. This does not mean you are the same entity in the eyes of Allah.

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After the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the Quran and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are the holiest.

In Hadith al Thaqalayn it says one is grater than the other. The Quran is greater than Ahlulbayt, but who is with the Quran?

عَلِیٌّ مَعَ الحَقِّ وَالقُرآنِ وَ القُرآنُ مَعَ عَلِیٍّ وَ لَن یَفتَرِقَا حَتّٰی یَرِدَا عَلَيَّ الحَوضِ

‘Ali is with the truth and the Quran and the Quran is with Ali and the two will not separate from each other until they meet me at the Pond.’

Rabi al-Abraar, vol. 1 p. 828

Simple.

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50 minutes ago, 786:) said:

So Allah is not superior to Imam Ali either? He is the first order of Wilayah

"Had e Adab", that's what I already mentioned. 

In obediece, one who obeyed Imam, has obeyed Prophet & has obeyed Allah.

The only job of a slave is to obey his master. Not to find out who is superior or who is inferior. 

I am wondering why you're getting outside the folds of touheed while discussing the wilayah?

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Superiority rank

1. The Prophet (S)

2. Imam Ali 

3. Fatima 

4. Hassan 

5. Hussein 

6. The 9 Imams from the Progeny of Imam Hussein

7. Ulil Azam 

The reason why the Imams are believed to be superior to Ulil Azam is because when Prophet Isa comes he will pray behind Imam Mehdi, hence he is the one with the greater risalat. As for the other Imams they are the inheritors of the Prophets and they have the final message that was perfected by the Holy Prophet (S) they, however, can never exceed the Prophet in what he has ordained through Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

The brothers here are playing a game of semantics and twisting and turning certain words to fit their own obtuse pejorative. 

Ali ((عليه السلام)) will always be the servant of Rasulallah and will always be the subordinate to him, please do not out of ignorance give a position to any of the Awliyah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that has not been rightfully given to them. 

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19 minutes ago, Cool said:

The only job of a slave is to obey his master. Not to find out who is superior or who is inferior. 

Do you also say this to the endless zakireen who spend their entire lectures trying to prove Imam Ali’s superiority over the other Prophets? Or this conjecture only used when one tries to rank personalities you have sectarian obligations towards?

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I hope the more sane members of the forum are now able to understand why some of us where highly critical of Mahdi Moderasi's position that "95% of Shi'a narrations are authentic" because this is the natural conclusion of that kind of approach. You can just accept anything and everything that you want, and that 5% is always handy when you want to reject any narration that goes against your beliefs. Although a lot more than 5% of narrations go against MM's beliefs.

Over the years quite a few knowledgeable members were quick to defend him, where are these valiant defenders of orthodoxy now? Some of them claimed to know him personally, so they must have known what he was about, yet they still defended him, that is what is wrong in our madhhab today, there is no accountability.

 

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11 hours ago, 786:) said:

There is also a position in 12er thought where the Imams are below all the anbiya.

There is also a position where they are above all the prophets except the Ulil Azm whom are greater than the Imams.

The most dominant 12er position is that Imams are lower than Rasoolallah, but higher than all the remaining Prophets.

This position introduced by Moderrasi is news to me. 

In general I never understood why this question was relevant keeping in mind that the ambiya and aimmah all brought the same message and guidance.

The question of superiority only becomes relevant if there is an opposition/contradiction/split, whereas the ambiya and the aimmah are all part of one line of guidance.

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

The question of superiority only becomes relevant if there is an opposition/contradiction/split, whereas the ambiya and the aimmah are all part of one line of guidance.

I think this is exactly the case.

Those who are posting ranks of superiority would one day face questions like that the quality of wilayah is getting inferior generation after generation. And the most inferior of all is the Imam of our time (ajtf) na'uzobillah. 

There is no concept of "ulil azm" in Imams. They all are sabireen, sadiqeen, tahireen etc equally. It is only the "had e adab" which gives the status of "syed ushshuhada" to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), otherwise they all are shaheed and we are no one to judge which one is superior shaheed and which is inferior.

 

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