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In the Name of God بسم الله

Popular Shia Sheikh says that Imam Ali(as) is equal to the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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12 minutes ago, Cool said:

Just like Imam Hussain served Imam Hassan (عليه السلام). So what's the problem here?

Imam Hassan is superior to Imam Hussein brother.

 

 

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It's just Modarresi being Modarresi. This Sunni Defense channel are doing a whole series on him, which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. This is the full video: Around the 1

He said the truth. Let me elaborate his message although I haven't seen the video. And I would like to build my argument on the basis of just one verse of Qur'an: Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he is a slave of Muhammad (S).   and this isn’t fake humility and nor is it a slave to the mere “function” of prophethood as prophethood (nubbuwat and risalat) in

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

Actually, you cannot digest it. I  know some people have "saghat qulobokuma" but you certainly have "saghat digestive system".

:hahaha:

You are right, I cannot digest ghulluw.

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9 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

and similary Masoomeen (عليه السلام) also said we are created from the Noor of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), do they become equal to Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

 

Thank you, now you see how that argument doesn’t make any sense?

10 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

if this is the case then rest of the prophets (عليه السلام) become equal to RasoolAllah (saws)?

 

Yes, all prophet’s and messengers were equal in their cause for spreading the divine message(s) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) what differentiates them is the greatness of responsibility placed upon them.

11 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

Imam (عليه السلام) replied, i was present outside (out of respect) because My Grandmother Lady Fatima (sa) was present inside. 

 

We should learn from the great reverence our Imams and to those who were superior to them in status and in relation.

12 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

and Lady Fatima (sa) has a title of Umm e Abeeha. (Mother of her father).

The mother of her father i.e in care and nurture 

12 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

now? does she become superior to RasoolAllah (saws)?

No  :furious:

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5 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Imam Hassan is superior to Imam Hussein brother.

 

 

Superior in relationship between them. Otherwise Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said they both are "syeda shababe ahlul jannah". 

Or do you think Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) is superior syed than Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in that hadith?

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, 786:) said:

right, I cannot digest ghulluw.

At the moment your digestive system is denying to accept the truth. That's why "saghat digestive system". 

Edited by Cool
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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Imam Hassan is superior to Imam Hussein brother.

 

 

Summary of one lengthy Hadees from al-Qatra: Jabar Jafi said to Imam Mohammad Baqir (asws):


‘Thanks to Allah Who bestowed us Ne’mat of your Marifat, and understanding of your Faza’il, and ability of your obedience, and love of your lovers, and animosity to your enemies.’


 Imam (s.a.) said: 


“O Jabar! Do you know what is Marifat? First, Marifat is Testification of Tauheed, second Marifat of al-Ma’ani, then third Marifat of Abwaab, fourth Marifat of Imam, then fifth Marifat of Arkaan, then sixth Marifat of Naqaba, then seventh is saying of Allah: 

“(O My Habeeb saws) Say: If the sea were ink for the Words of my Rabb, the sea would surely be consumed before the Words of My Rabb are finished, even if We bring the like of that (sea) to add thereto.” (Kahf 109) 

 

And if all the trees on the earth become pens, and the sea ink with seven more seas to add, the Words of Allah would not finish, surely Allah is Mighty Wise.” (Luqman 27) 

 

O Jabar! Testification of Tauheed means Marifat of Allah that He is Qadeem & Ghaib, sight and wisdom can not get (see) Him but He knows (sees) sight and wisdom, and He is Lateef and Khabeer, His Batin is Ghaib as He defined His Self. And Marifat of Ma’ani means that only we (s.a.a.) are Meanings and Expresser of His Power (Qudrat), He separated us from His Noor-e-Zaat, and gave us authority over the affairs of servants, so we do whatever we wish with His permission, and whatever we wish Allah wishes the same, and whatever is our intention Allah’s intention is the same, and Allah Azza wa Jalla sent us down on this earth, and made us Mustafa among His servants, and made us Hujjat on His cities. So who denied anything and rejected, certainly he turned his face away from Allah, and hated His Ism (Name), and denied His Ayaat and His Anbiya andRasool…………

 

Jabar said: ‘Our companions (Shias) are very few. Ya Ibne Rasool Allah (asws)! I think that there might be hundred or two hundred in the whole city, and between thousand to two thousand on the whole earth, rather my estimate is more that hundred thousand all around the earth.

 Imam Baqir (asws) said:

“O Jabar! Your estimate is wrong and your opinion is faulty, those people are Muqassireen, and they are not your (Shia brothers).” 


Jabar said: 


‘Ya Ibne Rasool Allah (asws)! Who are Muqassireen?’ 


Imam (s.a.) said: “Those who fall short of Marifat of Imams (asws) and Marifat of Amr and Rooh, which Allah has made obligatory on them.”…………

Jabar said: ‘Ya Syyedi 
Soalallaho Aalaika! Then the majority of Shias is Muqassireen. Which companions I know, they don’t seem to be like that.’ Mawla (asws) said:

“I know better, call them 
tomorrow.” When they came Imam (s.a.) asked: “Do they testify that Allah does whatever He pleases, and commands whatever He wishes, and no one is there to stop His Order, and no one can reject His Decision, and no one is there to question Him what He does, and creations are answerable to Him.” 

They all testified that it is True. Jabar said: ‘Alhamdo Lillah, they are having wisdom, and Marifat, and intelligence.’ Imam (s.a.) said: “Don’t hurry, you do not know. Ask them: Do we (asws) have Qudrat (Power) that Ali bin Hussain (asws) can become his son Mohammad Baqir (asws), and Mohammad Baqir (asws) can become him?”


They all became stationary and silent. Jabar said to those people: 

“Don’t you love your Imam (asws)?’ 

They started staring silently with doubt. Imam (asws) said: 


“O Jabar! Didn’t I tell you that leave them on their condition.” Then Imam (asws) said: “What has happened to you, why you don’t speak?” 

 

They started looking each other’s face, then said: ‘Ya Ibne Rasool Allah (asws)! We do not have the knowledge, you can teach us.’ 


Imam Zainul Abideen (asws) asked those people while looking towards Imam Baqir (asws): “Who is he?”


 They replied: ‘Your son.’ Then asked: “Who am I?” They replied: ‘Ali bin al-Hussain (asws).’


 Imam (asws) said one Word, then Mohammad (asws) became his father Ali (asws), and Ali (asws) became his son Mohammad (asws).

 Imam Zainul Abideen (asws) said:

“Why you are astonished at the Qudrat of Allah? I am Mohammad (asws) and Mohammad (asws) is I.”

 


And Imam Mohammad Baqir (asww) said:

“O people! Why you are astonished at the Amr of Allah? I am Ali (asws) and Ali ((عليه السلام).) is I,

 

we all are One and from one Noor, and our Arwah (Spirits) are from Amr of Allah, our first is Mohammad (asws), and our middle is Mohammad (asws) as well, and our last is Mohammad (saws) as well, and we all are Mohammad (saws).” 

 

When those people heard this, they all put their heads in Sajdah, and said: ‘We believe in your Walayat with heart and openly, and testify your Faza’il and Attributes.’ 

 

Imam Zainul Abideen (asws) said:

 

“O people! Raise your heads. Now you are Arif, successful, wise, and completely reached ones (in Marifat). Now do not tell any Muqassir with weak faith whatever you have seen from me and Mohammad Baqir (asws), because then they will say bad things to you and belie you.” 


They promised and left with perfect guidance.

 

(al Qatra, V 1, P 328)

 

before anyone starts loosing thier minds, the sajdah was to Allah (عزّ وجلّ). just similarly the magicians of fir'awn said 

 

And the magicians fell down in Sajdah saying, ‘We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa!’ [20:70]

Edited by randomly curious
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Just now, Cool said:

At the moment your digestive system was denying to accept the truth. That's why "saghat digestive system". 

truth of what? Truth is you are biased towards certain personalities and cannot see things objectively. I can give you clear cut example to expose your bias but you will jump around like a fish out of water to deflect as you did above.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

We should learn from the great reverence our Imams and to those who were superior to them in status and in relation.

this has nothing to do with superiority LOL.

 

read the Narration I've posted above.

 

and Rasool-Allah (saws) too used to stand out of respect for Lady Fatima (sa). now? does she become superior?

16 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The mother of her father i.e in care and nurture 

this is what sunnis belive and not shias.

 

that was said so people can recognize her status.

or would you believe RasoolAllah (saws) used to stand out of respect for Lady Fatima (sa) just because she was his daughter like the sunnis do?

Edited by randomly curious
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18 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Yes, all prophet’s and messengers were equal in their cause for spreading the divine message(s) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) what differentiates them is the greatness of responsibility placed upon them.

 

here we are talking about status.

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6 minutes ago, 786:) said:

truth of what? Truth is you are biased towards certain personalities and cannot see things objectively. I can give you clear cut example to expose your bias but you will jump around like a fish out of water to deflect as you did above.

Clear cut example??? That Imams are slaves of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)!!!

I would have no objection on that too. But it appears that you understand them slaves literally. So get back to Quran and read Ayah e Mawaddat as well as Ayah e Tathir please. Then read the following verse:

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 43:
وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

 

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Allah is also Maula. Are allah and Ali maula at the same level?

As per your writing, I can understand that for you Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is of lower status because you have used small letter for Him & capital for Ali (عليه السلام).

:hahaha:

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

As per your writing, I can understand that for you Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is of lower status because you have used small letter for Him & capital for Ali (عليه السلام).

:hahaha:

lol you probably loved that. Stuff like that would get a loud Naray Haidery.

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5 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Are you a literal slave of Imam Ali or a metaphorical slave?

 

You never answered my question, in what status Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) took Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to mubahila? 

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61:
فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ

We can understand abna'ana & nisa'ana. What was the status of Imam Ali? 

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

You never answered my question, in what status Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) took Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to mubahila? 

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61:
فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ

We can understand abna'ana & nisa'ana. What was the status of Imam Ali? 

Look up I did. Your turn. Are you a literal slave of Ali or a metaphorical?

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Himself. So with that logic, Imam Ali is also a Prophet? Aishah is also Imam Ali's wife? This is just gymnastics.

Is this the answer? Why Prophet took Imam Ali (عليه السلام) with him and in what status if not the "anfusana"?

 

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Because Imam Ali is also Prophet Muhammad. They are the same. No difference. Imam Ali married his own daughter Fatimah who also is the wife of the Holy Prophet and vice versa.

if this is the case, then you have to take imams as hand of Allah, tongue of Allah, eyes of Allah, ears of Allah, literally

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41 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

Now do not tell any Muqassir with weak faith whatever you have seen from me and Mohammad Baqir (asws), because then they will say bad things to you and belie you.” 

Not everyone can digest merits of Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام) and we should not tell everything to everyone including here on SC. People belie a hadith just because their low level of Ma'refat and small brain cannot comprehend it. 

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3 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

if this is the case, then you have to take imams as hand of Allah, tongue of Allah, eyes of Allah, ears of Allah, literally

Absolutely. Otherwise I would be a muqassir.

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7 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

@786:)

SubhanAllah. Your poor adab and immaturity only strengthens my beliefs, and the patience employed by those who speak with you only invigorates it. I have no problem telling you this because it is impossible to fake adab, and if you genuinely sought it you would naturally be led to Shia Islam

Let me guess, @randomly curious has the best adab according to you.

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5 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Let me guess, @randomly curious has the best adab according to you.

Brother I'm not picking on this thread in particular, but a lot of your posts. Disagree with us and argue against us until you pass out, but everything you say will be rejected if you don't present it in an empathetic and sincere way.

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4 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

Brother I'm not picking on this thread in particular, but a lot of your posts. Disagree with us and argue against us until you pass out, but everything you say will be rejected if you don't present it in an empathetic and sincere way.

Hmm no..You simply feel that way since I am opposing your views. You would not have called me out if I was on the same side of the fence as you. If you were a fair individual you would call out others for their adab--or lack thereof as well. 

Anyways, I appreciate your constructive criticism. It would've held more weight had you called out those whom you agreed with as well.

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3 hours ago, 786:) said:

Hmm no..You simply feel that way since I am opposing your views. You would not have called me out if I was on the same side of the fence as you. If you were a fair individual you would call out others for their adab--or lack thereof as well. 

Anyways, I appreciate your constructive criticism. It would've held more weight had you called out those whom you agreed with as well.

You are the fourth or fifth person I've complained about/asked to mellow out, you being the only Sunni. An example of someone who I don't see eye to eye with 100% of the time yet is professional and polite is iCenozoic, and every Christian I've seen here really. If you don't believe me you can comb through my posts and ask the mods for my report log (I give permission). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a rowdy rough outlaw who's barged into a house of diplomatic congressmen, but you take it farther than most people. I only complain when I think the person is being especially out there

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8 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't see this as a particularly scandalous or problematic claim

Well to me it is absolutely shocking and disturbing that any Muslim can believe there is an equal to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم

Of course, I believe it is impossible for any non-prophet to be equal, let alone superior, to any Prophet. The smallest of the Prophets is superior to the greatest non-Prophet in rank. Notice that when Allah Most High mentions the four categories upon which He has bestowed favor, the first category is that of the Prophets, followed by the Siddiqin, then the Martyrs, then the Pious (Surah 4:69). That right there plainly indicates that the Prophets are the most superior creation of Allah Most High, and that the smallest Prophet is superior to the greatest Siddiq non-Prophet

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6 hours ago, 786:) said:

Random? Sure pal. So be with the great majority of Muslims who consider Ali to be the giver of life/death/sustenance.:discussion:

 How could you possibly be any more out to lunch? This isn't true of the majority of Shias nor Muslims more generally. Then you have the gall to say this:

3 hours ago, 786:) said:

Hmm no..You simply feel that way since I am opposing your views. You would not have called me out if I was on the same side of the fence as you. If you were a fair individual you would call out others for their adab--or lack thereof as well. 

Embarrassing. You're consistently the worst-mannered user on SC. You actively provoke people with conjectural anecdotal arguments about the quality of the Shia community in properly practicing their deen. You're even worse than eThErEaL in this regard. Instead you could be taking the time to speak your peace and promote what you believe to be the truth of the matter. As Mahdavist said, by showing people what is foreign to the teachings of Rasulullah (s) and the Imams (a). All other comments and quips are totally unnecessary.

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4 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

 How could you possibly be any more out to lunch? This isn't true of the majority of Shias nor Muslims more generally. Then you have the gall to say this:

Embarrassing. You're consistently the worst-mannered user on SC. You actively provoke people with conjectural anecdotal arguments about the quality of the Shia community in properly practicing their deen. You're even worse than eThErEaL in this regard. Instead you could be taking the time to speak your peace and promote what you believe to be the truth of the matter. As Mahdavist said, by showing people what is foreign to the teachings of Rasulullah (s) and the Imams (a). All other comments and quips are totally unnecessary.

I am just more bitter to you because I differ with your views. Its human instinct. There are more vile and provocative individuals on here, but since they are closer to you in aqaid, their actions sit better off with you. If you had read the comments from another thread of the individual whom I was responding to, you would see his constant attacks on me to provoke me. Also the idea that I mocked was an idea passed off by him.

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27 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I am just more bitter to you because I differ with your views. Its human instinct. There are more vile and provocative individuals on here, but since they are closer to you in aqaid, their actions sit better off with you. If you had read the comments from another thread of the individual whom I was responding to, you would see his constant attacks on me to provoke me. Also the idea that I mocked was an idea passed off by him.

It doesn't matter if you differ with another persons views, you still have to show respect, conduct yourself in the best possible way.  No one is going to listen to you if you are bad mannered. If you're going to make a point, do so whilst being respectful.

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32 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I am just more bitter to you because I differ with your views. Its human instinct.

No, I just hate anecdotal arguments. Like your recent posts regarding the extent to which Shias are celebrating certain days. 

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Well to me it is absolutely shocking and disturbing that any Muslim can believe there is an equal to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم

The outcome of minimal vetting on who sits on the mimbar.

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18 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

shall we say, 'dubious' narration, which supposedly has Allah telling the Prophet that he wouldn't have created the heavens but for his sake, and wouldn't have created him if not for Ali, and then gives his interpretation about this is because it was Ali's job to carry the torch. But the narration continues, and if it wasn't for Fatima, I wouldn't have created you both. So how does that fit into his narrative? Doesn't matter, as long as it helped get a 'naray haidari' out of the audience.

fyi - to you it may be "dubious" for whatever reason. 

Hadith Kisa ( Hadith of the cloak) 

"The event of revelation of this verse as reported by Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari, one of the most reliable companions of the Holy Prophet has been mentioned in "Awalim al Ulum" by Shaykh Abdullah bin Nurullah Al-Bahrayni and is reproduced here:-.....

Quote

.....Thereupon The Almighty and the Glorious Allah said: "O My angels and the dwellers of the heavens, verily I have not created the indeclinable sky, the levelled earth, the bright moon, the resplendent sun, the rotating cosmic system, the flowing seas, and the sailing ship, but for the sake of and in the love of the five souls lying underneath the blanket."

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 33:33]  https://quran.al-islam.org/

Now using intellect- If I were to open a Hawza ilmia and bring the top five Jurists to teach. I will say, If it were not for these five I would not have created this Hawza.  If it were not for the current Imam(عليه السلام) or the Imam Mahdi according to non shia' present or to be born is not a point of consider here. - the fact that End of the world will not come till the Imam(عليه السلام) - means your and the everyones live is due to him(عليه السلام). This might require little perspective or you might call it mental gymnastics. 

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