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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why aren’t the Imams mentioned like Prophets are in the Qur’an?

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20 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Tafseer bir raye and tafseer bir raye is nothing but Haram and kufr.

Isn’t that what you’re doing lol

20 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Opposing  "Classical Scholors"

Quote

The completeness of Qur’an is so indisputable among Shi’a that the greatest scholar of Shi’a in Hadith, Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn al-Husayn Ibn Babwayh, known as "Shaykh Saduq”(309/919-381/991), wrote:

"Our belief is that the Qur’an which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn). 

And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."

Shi’i reference: Shi’ite Creed (al-I’tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, p77.

It should be noted that Shaykh Saduq (رضي الله عنه) is the greatest scholar of Hadith among the Imami Shi’a and was given the name of Shaykh al-Muhaddithin (i.e., the most eminent of the scholars of Hadith). And since he wrote the above in a book with the name of "The beliefs of the Imami Shi’a,”it is quite impossible that there could be any authentic Hadith in contrary to it.

It is noteworthy that Shaykh Saduq lived at the time of minor occultation of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) and he was one of the earliest Shi’a scholars. He had the honor that he was born with the prayer of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).

 

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1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

the idea of tahreef Al-Quran not only goes against the promise of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

See. Again same posts.

 

1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

it is also against the consensus of scholars.

Bro where and when did you make this ijma?

What about Ali Bin Ibrahim Qummi, Majlisis, Hur Amili, Sheikh Mufeed, and so on...

Quoting Sadooq isn't enough and claim of sadooq has no basis.

Prove from any authentic hadith that Quran is preserved between two covers.

Plus when did i do tafseer bir raye?

Who are the people quoting verse of promise of protection then deriving aqeedah that it means there can be no tehreef. From which authentic hadith of imams, it comes from? 

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1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Imam Ali verified the Quran we have today when Othman presented it to him

Ref?

1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

- the only difference is that Imam Ali introduced a Quran with foot notes and his Quran was chronological instead of it being from the biggest Surah to the smallest

Reference?

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10 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Quoting Sadooq isn't enough and claim of sadooq has no basis.

Sudooq is more an authority above

11 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Ali Bin Ibrahim Qummi, Majlisis, Hur Amili, Sheikh Mufeed

 

11 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Bro where and when did you make this ijma?

The mainstream Shia/Sunni belief/consensus is that the Quran is preserved bro

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

See. Again same posts.

 

Bro where and when did you make this ijma?

What about Ali Bin Ibrahim Qummi, Majlisis, Hur Amili, Sheikh Mufeed, and so on...

Quoting Sadooq isn't enough and claim of sadooq has no basis.

Prove from any authentic hadith that Quran is preserved between two covers.

Plus when did i do tafseer bir raye?

Who are the people quoting verse of promise of protection then deriving aqeedah that it means there can be no tehreef. From which authentic hadith of imams, it comes from? 

I don't think that al-Hurr al-'Amili believed in tahrif, he may have changed his opinion, but he wrote a book against it, in it he says the Qur'an  that we have is the same that descended on the Prophet (s)

http://www.hodaalquran.com/rbook.php?id=1020&mn=1

وكل ذلك يقتضي أن يكون ما بأيدينا من القرآن هو نفس القرآن الذي نزل على الرسول الأعظم (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم)، وعرفه أمير المؤمنين وسائر الأئمّة والصحابة والمسلمون أجمعون.

If you look at the chapter headings he lists a load of major scholars who rejected tahrif, shaykh Mufid is one of them

http://www.hodaalquran.com/bookindex.php?id=32&s=7bb3b50e6807cf74126782760cebce4e&mn=1

 

Screenshot_20200817-044848_Chrome.jpg

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

I don't think that al-Hurr al-'Amili believed in tahrif, he may have changed his opinion, but he wrote a book against it, in it he says the Qur'an  that we have is the same that descended on the Prophet (s)

http://www.hodaalquran.com/rbook.php?id=1020&mn=1

وكل ذلك يقتضي أن يكون ما بأيدينا من القرآن هو نفس القرآن الذي نزل على الرسول الأعظم (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم)، وعرفه أمير المؤمنين وسائر الأئمّة والصحابة والمسلمون أجمعون.

If you look at the chapter headings he lists a load of major scholars who rejected tahrif, shaykh Mufid is one of them

http://www.hodaalquran.com/bookindex.php?id=32&s=7bb3b50e6807cf74126782760cebce4e&mn=1

 

Screenshot_20200817-044848_Chrome.jpg

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أقول: هذه الأحاديث و أمثالها دالة على أن النص على الأئمة عليهم السّلام و كذا التصريح بأسمائهم و قد تواترت الأخبار بأن القرآن نقص منه كثير و سقط منه آيات لما تكتب، و بعضهم يحمل تلك الأخبار، على أن ما نقص و سقط كان تأويلا نزل مع التنزيل، و بعضهم على أنه وحي لا قرآن، و على كل حال فهو حجة في النص و تلك الأخبار متواترة من طريق العامة و الخاصة

[I say: These narrations and their likes are evidence that the textual appointment of the Imams (عليه السلام) in addition to their names (were present), and the narrations have reached mass transmission (Tawatur) in declaring that much was lost from the Qur’an and that verses from it were dropped without being written. Some consider these reports to be referring to explanations that descended alongside the revelation while some consider it as revelation but not a part of the Qur’an. Either-way, the text is valid proof and those narrations are mass transmitted by the general Muslims and the Shia.]

Source: Ithbat-ul-Hudat 2/206


وقد تواترت الروايات بأنه لم يجمع القرآن كله الا الأئمة عليهم السلام وان من أدعى انه جمعه كله فهو كاذب. وورد النص الصحيح بأن القرآن الذي نزل على محمد صلى الله عليه واله كان سبعة عشر ألف آية. والموجود الان نحو الثلث باعتبار العدد. ويحتمل كون تلك الآيات أطول من الآيات الموجودة ويكون الموجود منه هو العشر او اقل وتواتر النص بأن المهدي عليه السلام اذا خرج يخرج القرآن بتمامه فينفر أكثر الناس منه ولا يقبله الا القليل. فكيف يقال : ان جميع المحرمات قد فصلت لنا في هذا القرآن الموجود ليمكن الحكم باباحة ما ليس فيه وهذا لا يتم الا على طريقة العامة وهذا الاستدلال لا يليق صدوره عن أحد من العقلاء فضلا عن الفضلاء

[The narrations mentioning that the entire Qur’an was only collected by the Imams (عليه السلام) have reached mass transmission (Tawatur) and that whoever claims to have collected it has lied. The authentic text has also reached us that the Qur’an revealed to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was seventeen thousand verses whereas the one available today is only a third of this number. It is possible that those (missing) verses are longer than the ones present and so what’s available could be a tenth or less from the actual size. It’s also been mass transmitted that the Mahdi (عليه السلام) when he emerges, shall bring out the complete Qur’an but the people will be repulsed by it while only a minority accept it. How then could it be said: “All prohibited foods have been specified for us in this present Qur’an and so everything not mentioned therein is lawful.” This can only be correct according to the methodology of the mainstream Muslims (Sunnies) but this can’t be considered as binding proof to any sane person let alone a virtuous one.]

Source: Al-Fawa’id al-Tusiyyah pg.483-484.

And there are some others as well. If he was to reject Tehreef, would he call narrations "Mutawatir"?

Read More here 

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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4 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

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أقول: هذه الأحاديث و أمثالها دالة على أن النص على الأئمة عليهم السّلام و كذا التصريح بأسمائهم و قد تواترت الأخبار بأن القرآن نقص منه كثير و سقط منه آيات لما تكتب، و بعضهم يحمل تلك الأخبار، على أن ما نقص و سقط كان تأويلا نزل مع التنزيل، و بعضهم على أنه وحي لا قرآن، و على كل حال فهو حجة في النص و تلك الأخبار متواترة من طريق العامة و الخاصة

[I say: These narrations and their likes are evidence that the textual appointment of the Imams (عليه السلام) in addition to their names (were present), and the narrations have reached mass transmission (Tawatur) in declaring that much was lost from the Qur’an and that verses from it were dropped without being written. Some consider these reports to be referring to explanations that descended alongside the revelation while some consider it as revelation but not a part of the Qur’an. Either-way, the text is valid proof and those narrations are mass transmitted by the general Muslims and the Shia.]

Source: Ithbat-ul-Hudat 2/206


وقد تواترت الروايات بأنه لم يجمع القرآن كله الا الأئمة عليهم السلام وان من أدعى انه جمعه كله فهو كاذب. وورد النص الصحيح بأن القرآن الذي نزل على محمد صلى الله عليه واله كان سبعة عشر ألف آية. والموجود الان نحو الثلث باعتبار العدد. ويحتمل كون تلك الآيات أطول من الآيات الموجودة ويكون الموجود منه هو العشر او اقل وتواتر النص بأن المهدي عليه السلام اذا خرج يخرج القرآن بتمامه فينفر أكثر الناس منه ولا يقبله الا القليل. فكيف يقال : ان جميع المحرمات قد فصلت لنا في هذا القرآن الموجود ليمكن الحكم باباحة ما ليس فيه وهذا لا يتم الا على طريقة العامة وهذا الاستدلال لا يليق صدوره عن أحد من العقلاء فضلا عن الفضلاء

[The narrations mentioning that the entire Qur’an was only collected by the Imams (عليه السلام) have reached mass transmission (Tawatur) and that whoever claims to have collected it has lied. The authentic text has also reached us that the Qur’an revealed to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was seventeen thousand verses whereas the one available today is only a third of this number. It is possible that those (missing) verses are longer than the ones present and so what’s available could be a tenth or less from the actual size. It’s also been mass transmitted that the Mahdi (عليه السلام) when he emerges, shall bring out the complete Qur’an but the people will be repulsed by it while only a minority accept it. How then could it be said: “All prohibited foods have been specified for us in this present Qur’an and so everything not mentioned therein is lawful.” This can only be correct according to the methodology of the mainstream Muslims (Sunnies) but this can’t be considered as binding proof to any sane person let alone a virtuous one.]

Source: Al-Fawa’id al-Tusiyyah pg.483-484.

And there are some others as well. If he was to reject Tehreef, would he call narrations "Mutawatir"?

Read More here 

These narrations from Majlisi are weak

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Quote

Any one who believes that there has been an addition, omission or
interpolation in the Qur'an is indeed misguided, and if he persists in that
belief, he commits a sin by dishonouring the word of Allah.

Scholars of both Sunni and Shia schools have written about the change
having occurred. They have been critically studied and their errors have
been made manifest. 

Asgharali M M Jaffer

Quran affirms this and this verse is explained not through a mere Hadith, but the action of Imam Ali when he accepted the Quran of Othman, if you don't consider the significance of this event as satisfactory and the position of Sudooq in regards to this matter, then you are taking the position of an Akhbari, because you are demanding a clear cut Hadith or Quranic verse which suits your own ego or criteria. This is a matter of consensus and one of our most esteemed classical scholar who was decades before Majlisi attests to this, even then your A'hadith are weak. 

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As a Layman, Not getting into Technical discussion. In terms of Qur'an.

FADAK, Battle of Jamal. Siffin, and KARBALA is my proof that Whatever was suppose to be left for us is with us. If something was missing and was altered in terms of us not getting the Fundamental of Faith and Islamic Concepts. The Divinely Assigned Protectors/Guardians would have ensured it was protected and passed on. 

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7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

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أقول: هذه الأحاديث و أمثالها دالة على أن النص على الأئمة عليهم السّلام و كذا التصريح بأسمائهم و قد تواترت الأخبار بأن القرآن نقص منه كثير و سقط منه آيات لما تكتب، و بعضهم يحمل تلك الأخبار، على أن ما نقص و سقط كان تأويلا نزل مع التنزيل، و بعضهم على أنه وحي لا قرآن، و على كل حال فهو حجة في النص و تلك الأخبار متواترة من طريق العامة و الخاصة

[I say: These narrations and their likes are evidence that the textual appointment of the Imams (عليه السلام) in addition to their names (were present), and the narrations have reached mass transmission (Tawatur) in declaring that much was lost from the Qur’an and that verses from it were dropped without being written. Some consider these reports to be referring to explanations that descended alongside the revelation while some consider it as revelation but not a part of the Qur’an. Either-way, the text is valid proof and those narrations are mass transmitted by the general Muslims and the Shia.]

Source: Ithbat-ul-Hudat 2/206


وقد تواترت الروايات بأنه لم يجمع القرآن كله الا الأئمة عليهم السلام وان من أدعى انه جمعه كله فهو كاذب. وورد النص الصحيح بأن القرآن الذي نزل على محمد صلى الله عليه واله كان سبعة عشر ألف آية. والموجود الان نحو الثلث باعتبار العدد. ويحتمل كون تلك الآيات أطول من الآيات الموجودة ويكون الموجود منه هو العشر او اقل وتواتر النص بأن المهدي عليه السلام اذا خرج يخرج القرآن بتمامه فينفر أكثر الناس منه ولا يقبله الا القليل. فكيف يقال : ان جميع المحرمات قد فصلت لنا في هذا القرآن الموجود ليمكن الحكم باباحة ما ليس فيه وهذا لا يتم الا على طريقة العامة وهذا الاستدلال لا يليق صدوره عن أحد من العقلاء فضلا عن الفضلاء

[The narrations mentioning that the entire Qur’an was only collected by the Imams (عليه السلام) have reached mass transmission (Tawatur) and that whoever claims to have collected it has lied. The authentic text has also reached us that the Qur’an revealed to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was seventeen thousand verses whereas the one available today is only a third of this number. It is possible that those (missing) verses are longer than the ones present and so what’s available could be a tenth or less from the actual size. It’s also been mass transmitted that the Mahdi (عليه السلام) when he emerges, shall bring out the complete Qur’an but the people will be repulsed by it while only a minority accept it. How then could it be said: “All prohibited foods have been specified for us in this present Qur’an and so everything not mentioned therein is lawful.” This can only be correct according to the methodology of the mainstream Muslims (Sunnies) but this can’t be considered as binding proof to any sane person let alone a virtuous one.]

Source: Al-Fawa’id al-Tusiyyah pg.483-484.

And there are some others as well. If he was to reject Tehreef, would he call narrations "Mutawatir"?

Read More here 

Yes I've seen that before, I guess it would come down to which book he wrote last, people can change their opinions.

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