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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why aren’t the Imams mentioned like Prophets are in the Qur’an?

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  • Veteran Member

:salam:

Why aren’t they mentioned in the same way? Not necessarily their names but even their characteristics.

This is especially considering some of our ulema considered them to be better than prophets.

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34 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Why aren’t they mentioned in the same way? Not necessarily their names but even their characteristics.

This is especially considering some of our ulema considered them to be better than prophets.

Don’t judge the Quran from the ulema. Judge the ulema from the Quran. Allah made this book as guidance for mankind—not for a select few individuals.

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3 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Why aren’t they mentioned in the same way? Not necessarily their names but even their characteristics

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Hajj, Verse 78:
وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving as is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 55:
إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 43:
وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 155:
وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُم بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الْخَوْفِ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِّنَ الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَنفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ

And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 156:
الَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُم مُّصِيبَةٌ قَالُوا إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

Who, when a misfortune befalls them, say: Surely we are Allah's and to Him we shall surely return.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 157:
أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ صَلَوَاتٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُهْتَدُونَ

Those are they on whom are blessings and mercy from their Lord, and those are the followers of the right course.
(English - Shakir)

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 119:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ

O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61:
فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ

But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 46:
وَبَيْنَهُمَا حِجَابٌ وَعَلَى الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالٌ يَعْرِفُونَ كُلًّا بِسِيمَاهُمْ وَنَادَوْا أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ أَن سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمْ لَمْ يَدْخُلُوهَا وَهُمْ يَطْمَعُونَ

And between the two there shall be a veil, and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks, and they shall call out to the dwellers of the garden: Peace be on you; they shall not have yet entered it, though they hope.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 18:
شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 21:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْفُرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ وَيَقْتُلُونَ النَّبِيِّينَ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ وَيَقْتُلُونَ الَّذِينَ يَأْمُرُونَ بِالْقِسْطِ مِنَ النَّاسِ فَبَشِّرْهُم بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

Surely (as for) those who disbelieve in the communications of Allah and slay the prophets unjustly and slay those among men who enjoin justice, announce to them a painful chastisement.
(English - Shakir)

Surah At-Tahrim, Verse 4:
إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ

If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.
(English - Shakir)

I can keep posting verses after verses, just to show you that they are indeed mentioned in the same way. 

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 59:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 33:
وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
(English - Shakir)

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The Imams are not mentioned by names because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knew if he did than people would try to change the Quran.

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  • Development Team
Quote

when Imam Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (ع) was asked about this question, he replied that, “It is the same case with the daily prayer, the zakat, and hajj: Allah has mentioned only their general rules in the Qur`an but has not elucidated the details. It was the Prophet (ص) who expressed the precise method of carrying out such duties and their related details. In the same vein, regarding the question of succession, the Prophet (ص) himself specified the names of ‘Ali and his household (ع) as his successors and so there was no need for their names to have been expressed in the Qur`an itself.

https://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason/question-36-names-imams-quran

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11 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

The Imams are not mentioned by names because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knew if he did than people would try to change the Quran.

Is that your only answer? Lol

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Posted (edited)

Salam, you posted Brothers /Sisters are good and if we read them with hadith we can see they refer to Ahlulbayt. But it is not mentioning them as much as the prophets or in a similar way. Like it is not saying it in the way it mentioned Luqman’s advice to his son or the amount of times it mentioned Moses (عليه السلام). So can we say Ahlulbayt have higher rank than prophets like ulema say? Do Imams really have Wilayah al Takweeniya where they have authority over all atoms of universe?

Edited by Ejaz
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This is only really an issue if you believe the Imams are at the centre of the universe, and that you are damned to Hell if you don’t believe in them. Then you probably need to justify why they aren’t mentioned in the Qur’an. Otherwise, it’s not that big a deal. The Qur’an doesn’t mention previous prophets proving their authority by quoting previous scriptures. The Qur’an mostly talks about the past and the present, not the future, and it was up to the Prophet to announce who the community was supposed to follow after his death. Most Sunnis would have you believe that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left no instructions, and just left it for people to figure out. That’s probably why others try to make the case that Abu Bakr was designated as successor, but I think they are also shooting themselves in the foot with they argument because if you’d start comparing the evidence for succession between Imam Ali and Abu Bakr, there is only gonna to be one winner.

I know people want certainty by having it in black and white in the Qur’an that we should follow Imam Ali (عليه السلام), but making certainty easy isn’t Allah’s sunna. What kind of certainty do you think anyone in the 600 or so years between `Isa (عليه السلام) and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had?

Alhamdulillah the Qur’an contains everything you need for salvation, and the themes of the Qur’an go against the Sunni narrative, and hint in the direction of what the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made explicit, to follow his Ahlulbayt.

But I repeat, it’s very hard for those who exaggerate the status of the Imams to justify why they aren’t explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an, since allegedly they were the main actors from the beginning of creation, and some narrations even say that Imam Ali helped every Prophet. So then why does Allah not mention any of this? Where is the Muhammadan light in the Qur’an? Where is the intercession through the Ahlulbayt in the Qur’an? And I mean explicitly, not through some external interpretation.

This is why you get this narrations about how we only have a third of the Qur’an left, because the companions removed all the verses mentioning the Ahlulbayt, and other such nonsense. It’s because this issue has always been a thorn in the side of the ghulat. Or the other approach they used is to read the Ahlulbayt into everything, to the point where the Qur’an makes absolutely no sense unless your are reading it with this tafsir. There is literally not a single statement that can be taken at face value.

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  • Veteran Member
10 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

This is only really an issue if you believe the Imams are at the centre of the universe, and that you are damned to Hell if you don’t believe in them. Then you probably need to justify why they aren’t mentioned in the Qur’an. Otherwise, it’s not that big a deal. The Qur’an doesn’t mention previous prophets proving their authority by quoting previous scriptures. The Qur’an mostly talks about the past and the present, not the future, and it was up to the Prophet to announce who the community was supposed to follow after his death. Most Sunnis would have you believe that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left no instructions, and just left it for people to figure out. That’s probably why others try to make the case that Abu Bakr was designated as successor, but I think they are also shooting themselves in the foot with they argument because if you’d start comparing the evidence for succession between Imam Ali and Abu Bakr, there is only gonna to be one winner.

I know people want certainty by having it in black and white in the Qur’an that we should follow Imam Ali (عليه السلام), but making certainty easy isn’t Allah’s sunna. What kind of certainty do you think anyone in the 600 or so years between `Isa (عليه السلام) and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had?

Alhamdulillah the Qur’an contains everything you need for salvation, and the themes of the Qur’an go against the Sunni narrative, and hint in the direction of what the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made explicit, to follow his Ahlulbayt.

But I repeat, it’s very hard for those who exaggerate the status of the Imams to justify why they aren’t explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an, since allegedly they were the main actors from the beginning of creation, and some narrations even say that Imam Ali helped every Prophet. So then why does Allah not mention any of this? Where is the Muhammadan light in the Qur’an? Where is the intercession through the Ahlulbayt in the Qur’an? And I mean explicitly, not through some external interpretation.

This is why you get this narrations about how we only have a third of the Qur’an left, because the companions removed all the verses mentioning the Ahlulbayt, and other such nonsense. It’s because this issue has always been a thorn in the side of the ghulat. Or the other approach they used is to read the Ahlulbayt into everything, to the point where the Qur’an makes absolutely no sense unless your are reading it with this tafsir. There is literally not a single statement that can be taken at face value.

You don’t believe that Imamate is part of Usul al Din?

Or that Hadith al Kisa is true (where Allah created everything for the sake of Ahlulbayt)?

If so, how much of our tradition are we to throw out? Won’t we become just like Sunnis?

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2 hours ago, Ejaz said:

You don’t believe that Imamate is part of Usul al Din?

Usul al Din is a man made concept. The Imams never taught that. But I’m not negating that Imamah is extremely important. Anything the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tells us to do is important, and we can’t follow the Prophet properly without the Imams anyway.

But I don’t believe in the more exaggerated claims about them.

2 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Or that Hadith al Kisa is true (where Allah created everything for the sake of Ahlulbayt)?

This long version of Hadith al Kisa is blatantly fabricated. I believe in the short version.

You see, again, if the Imams have been so central to creation since the beginning then you need to come up with a convincing explanation for why they or their cosmic role aren’t in the Qur’an. The most convincing one at that point would probably be they the Qur’an has been tampered with.

2 hours ago, Ejaz said:

If so, how much of our tradition are we to throw out? Won’t we become just like Sunnis?

I don’t know why we always need to compare ourselves to the Sunnis. This is very unhealthy because it leads to being more concerned with being ‘anti-Sunni’ then Shia.

But to answer the question, I think we should seriously rethink anything that can be authentically traced to the Imams or fit into the Qur’anic paradigm. Something is seriously wrong when you constantly find yourself having to come up with elaborate explanations to reconcile your beliefs with the Qur’an. I don’t believe this will lead us to be like the Sunnis. There will still be differences of course.

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46 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Salaam Brother @Mahdavist,

Any thoughts on the topic / Brother Haydar’s comments?

Walaikum as salam brother

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best what He chooses to reveal as a verse and what He chooses to present as a sunnah.

The Qur'an describes in Surah Najm how the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) does not speak out of his own desire, but rather through revelation. 

The Qur'an also instructs us several times to obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to obey His prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Therefore a sunnah or a narration of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is hujjah upon us in the same manner as the Qur'an is. To separate the two, and to look only towards the Qur'an or only towards the sunnah for guidance is in contradiction to both the Qur'an and hadith (such as hadith al thaqalayn).

I prefer not to speculate on why the Qur'an is revealed the way it is and why some things are mentioned several times while others are mentioned fewer times. One can fall into qiyaas if they start counting instances where hajj and sawm (fasting) were mentioned vs other acts of worship, or why one prophet (or even non prophets) were mentioned more than others. 

From the companions only Zaid has been mentioned by name, yet neither the shi'a nor the sunnis derived from this that he is the successor of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), despite being his adopted son.

In short, I can't claim to know why some things were transmitted as hadith and not revealed as ayaat, but if I have narrations of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) instructing me to follow a certain path then God forbid that I reject them. 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/11/2020 at 9:31 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

This long version of Hadith al Kisa is blatantly fabricated. I believe in the short version.

You see, again, if the Imams have been so central to creation since the beginning then you need to come up with a convincing explanation for why they or their cosmic role aren’t in the Qur’an. The most convincing one at that point would probably be they the Qur’an has been tampered with.

I don’t know if hadith e Kisa is fabricated, and I haven’t read into it. But then if so much of our tradition is fabricated (all the hadiths exalting the imams beyond the prophets, them being the first nurs to be created etc.) wouldn’t that give credibility to the Sunni position who claim our hadiths were fabricated by Kufans who killed Imam Husayn (عليه السلام)?

Couldn’t we just say that things such as the nūr of Rasulullah and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is esoteric knowledge (and perhaps not needed for one’s salvation)? Kanat Eleyoun, a YouTube channel, claims to delve into this knowledge (I don’t know if you’ve investigated this channel), though they don’t give references from hadith.

 

Edited by Ejaz
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1 hour ago, Ejaz said:

I don’t know if hadith e Kisa is fabricated, and I haven’t read into it. But then if so much of our tradition is fabricated (all the hadiths exalting the imams beyond the prophets, them being the first nurs to be created etc.) wouldn’t that give credibility to the Sunni position who claim our hadiths were fabricated by Kufans who killed Imam Husayn (عليه السلام)?

No, because we aren’t talking about something that is established in our sources that we suspect is fabricated. This is a much later invention. Read this thread for more:

If you do a search you’ll be able to find other threads as well.

 

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12 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

No, because we aren’t talking about something that is established in our sources that we suspect is fabricated. This is a much later invention. Read this thread for more:

If you do a search you’ll be able to find other threads as well.

 

Hadith-e-Kisa

https://www.duas.org/hadis-e-kisa.htm

fyi

Quote

Presumably, the first person that has narrated this hadith without a chain of narrators is Shaykh Tarihih (11 century A.H) in his book “Al-Muntakhab”. Shaykh Abbas Qummi says in this regard: “The hadith Kisa that is widely read and spoken of amongst people is different from what is mentioned in hadith collections. Apparently, this hadith is only narrated in Al-Muntakhab.”[18]

Something that is widely practiced, is usually not preserved in short book. 

Quote

Despite some issues about the chain of narrators and the text of this hadith, some of the meanings mentioned in it are in accord with the other ahadith and Quranic verses.

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa10521

I am  a layman, do not have the Knowledge of Hadith sciences. Or Ilam Rajal etc..(Not Qualified in this area) 

However, I do possess some average intellect and could look at things and come to some sort of conclusion in non fiqhi area. Me reciting Hadith-e-Kisa when the Concept and Context is not against the Qur'an is not making me hell bound. 

What I understand is that non Shia have had the government and the state and the administration- They were free to record and practice- This Notion that if it was not in a book or practiced and acknowledged universally is not part of the Religion - Is Non- Shia "Thing". They should Only follow  ALL that was recorded or practiced- Since there is not reason for any thing to be written/practiced under duress/threat of life. 

We the Shia's nor our Imam(عليه السلام) or the scholars had the opportunity to Openly publish or Practice ALL. There were time of ease but even at that time only the basic things were introduced etc..

Another thing is that the Sayeds have had practices which have been going on for centuries and one of this the Recitation of Hadith-e- Kisa in their homes on Thursdays. Things that are widely practiced are usually not preserved in case of  a danger of loosing literature even in the case sometimes widely practiced or known Hadiths are written with out a chain because at that time the author knows that ALL agree. Imagine a were to write a book and mention The Hadith of Ghadir ( Mawla) or the Gate to the city of knowledge - I would not care to write references or chain of narrators as these are Well known and Well established Hadith of MY TIME. Now 1000 years from know ALL literature is lost due to whatever reason. Someone finds my book - But there is no reference nor any chain to these two hadiths. Or I did not mention Imam Ali(عليه السلام) is with the Truth and Truth is with Imam Ali(عليه السلام) - So does that mean it was not important or did not mention Dua a Kumayl its recited on Thursdays - I know that this practice will be preserved so I did not include in the short book - 1000 years form now practice still goes on but there is no reference in my book - that means its an innovation> ?

Some have different criteria /standard that is why we have some tradition used by some scholars and not by others. 

At the end of the day, I would not actively negate something only based on its not in a book or if the chain had an issue(Subjective ) there are other things like Content ....

From a Silo perspective of a Only Chain - is not a prudent way to looking at things. Which is usually done by Internet entities to weaken stuff. 

I would recite Hadith-e- Kisa every Thursdays I Think Dua Kymayl is a recent practice in our centers. I would do both. 

Layman

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Nobody said you were hell-bound for reciting it. If you want to recite a piece of fairly harmless religious fiction, then that’s your business. The problem is when people start trying to prove their beliefs from it.

As for your argument, you do realise that you could apply this to any widely practiced ritual or well-known text, right?

So let’s say someone makes something up in the 1500s, it becomes popular among the Shia but the original source is forgotten, and then in the 1800s someone writes a book stating that this is a well-known practice. According to your logic, unless we can prove it was made up, we’d have to assume it originated with the Imams, and that the reason we have no proof for it is because of taqiyya, oppression, our books being lost, etc. You can justify anything this way, as indeed people do.

The argument about it being too well-known to write down is ridiculous though. That doesn’t happen. Well-known things get written down a lot, and get mentioned a lot. And especially with something like this, a scholar would see it as a blessing and an honour to write it down in his book and quote a chain of narration to himself.

As for oppression, etc. First of all, if we were capable of preserving texts about cursing the Sahaba and tahrif of the Qur’an, I’m pretty sure this wouldn’t have been a problem. Second of all, Shias had a great deal of freedom during the Buyid period.

To be honest, I think the biggest argument against what you are saying is that Abbas al-Qummi didn’t include this in mafatih al-jinnan. He wasn’t exactly that strict when it came to chains of narrations, so if it was that famous you would expect it to be included.

Basically your way of thinking starts off by assuming everything that is currently believed or practiced must be correct, and then you look for justifications to counter any evidence to the contrary. I don’t think this is how you should approach religion or history.

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Reports of the Ahlul Kisa is present in Sunni books. 
 

Quote

 

Book 031, Number 5955:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)

This is the report & there are many others. What I wonder is that when Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) came, did he asked permission from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to enter into the cloak or Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) just grabbed him and taken him into the cloak without any dialogue? There has to be some dialogues between them specially, each one of them must have offered salam to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), then must have asked for the permission to enter into the cloak. 

When the event is correctly mentioned, there has to be some dialogues. Alhamdolillah, hadith e kisa is present and is preserved in our records and being recited regularly in our majalis. 

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  • Haji 2003 changed the title to Why aren’t the Imams mentioned like Prophets are in the Qur’an?
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12 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Reports of the Ahlul Kisa is present in Sunni books. 
 

This is the report & there are many others. What I wonder is that when Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) came, did he asked permission from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to enter into the cloak or Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) just grabbed him and taken him into the cloak without any dialogue? There has to be some dialogues between them specially, each one of them must have offered salam to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), then must have asked for the permission to enter into the cloak. 

When the event is correctly mentioned, there has to be some dialogues. Alhamdolillah, hadith e kisa is present and is preserved in our records and being recited regularly in our majalis. 

The fabricated long hadith al-Kisa has a completely different context. It takes place in the house of Fatima (عليه السلام), and she brings the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) a cloak to cover him because he is feeling weak/sick.

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Posted (edited)

Surely, there must be some hint and a criteria by virtue of which Abu Hanifa, Hanbal, Chafee and Maliki were/are called the "four Imams" with the power of creation of the "four madhahib" 300 years after the Prophet? After that, what about the Ibn Taymiya, Abdul Wahaab, and other "reformers". At least we do not find nor believe in such power of creation of a new religion nor any room or the audacity for "improvement" upon the Prophet's religion. Especially after the verse of "perfection of deen" in the Quran. We only believe in the continuation of the same, no "revivals", no experiments, no newer/better/purer. While people are churning out newer and updated versions even today. So I suggest it is only logical that any research into this should start from there.

 

Edited by The Green Knight
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The guided Imams are chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as mentioned in Quran at the link given  below:

There is no concept of a caliph / leader / successor in quran chosen by the people for the guidance of nation / ummah.

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I believe through logic and understanding in the sense of theology, that if Allah mentioned their names then it might lead us to not seek knowledge. The Qu'ran makes us intelligent and reveals us things we do not know and commands us to seek knowledge. If every single detail of who, what and where in sense of a timeline then what would be the point of a test or even to seek knowledge? Qur'an gives us the final message of our religion being completed at ghadeer, . After this its up to us according to hadiths and historical accounts to find out what our roles as Muslims are, in the sense of leadership. I believe they are mentioned everywhere as those with knowledge of the book and those in authority .

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21 hours ago, مجتبى ابن إيمان said:

I believe through logic and understanding in the sense of theology, that if Allah mentioned their names then it might lead us to not seek knowledge. The Qu'ran makes us intelligent and reveals us things we do not know and commands us to seek knowledge. If every single detail of who, what and where in sense of a timeline then what would be the point of a test or even to seek knowledge? Qur'an gives us the final message of our religion being completed at ghadeer, . After this its up to us according to hadiths and historical accounts to find out what our roles as Muslims are, in the sense of leadership. I believe they are mentioned everywhere as those with knowledge of the book and those in authority .

Still, if they are greater than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Imam Ali (عليه السلام) being his nafs in the event of Mubahila, don’t you think they’d be mentioned more?
I see why explicit names could be problematic (people changing their names, tampering with the Quran etc.), but there isn’t a storyline for the Imams in the same way there are story lines for al Khidr, or many many story lines for Musa (عليه السلام). Instead what we have to do is read into certain verses like Brother @Haydar Husayn mentioned.

But at the end of the day, Wallahu A’lam

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On 8/14/2020 at 5:30 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

The fabricated long hadith al-Kisa has a completely different context. It takes place in the house of Fatima (عليه السلام), and she brings the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) a cloak to cover him because he is feeling weak/sick.

Why do you think these hadiths were fabricated (assuming it was), was it by Ghulat?

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On 8/9/2020 at 7:19 PM, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Why aren’t they mentioned in the same way? Not necessarily their names but even their characteristics.

This is especially considering some of our ulema considered them to be better than prophets.

Because People omitted all the ayahs or either parts of ayahs, that had names of Imams along with their virtues. 

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4 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Dang, we have a pro tahreef person. So do you take Allah’s promise in the Quran in vain?

Which promise? And where it is?

And Which Imam (عليه السلام) Said that verse means there can be no deletion in Quran?

Which Imam (عليه السلام) interpreted that verse like your scholors?

If Imam didn't do it, then how can you use your own Tafseer to reject 100s of authentic narrations that point to deletion?

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Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

I will take the word of our Lord who sent this down. Any narration that says otherwise is as good as the word of Donald Trump for me. 

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Guest Pschological Warfare

You may cal this mental gymnastics normally its referred to as Knowledge/Wisdom/Intellectual/rational search and looking at the Concepts and understanding the entire picture(Fundamental Analysis)  not technical analysis/ 

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Commentaries here

https://quran.al-islam.org/

&

https://almizan.org/

(6. The Concept of "al-Qur'an an-Natiq"

"Al-Qur'an an-natiq" means the "speaking Qur'an." This is a famous title given to the Shi'a Imams to describe their proximity to the Qur'an; they are the custodians of the Qur'anic message and its interpretation; they are the embodiment of the Qur'anic values and its ideals. This concept is based on the various sayings of the Prophet in which the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt are shown to never separate from one another.

The famous hadith of thaqalayn says:

"I am leaving two precious things behind among you: the Book of Allah and my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall not separate from one another until they come to me at the fountain of Kawthar (on the Day of Resurrection)."13

In another hadith, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet, quotes him as follows:

"'Ali is with the Qur'an and the Qur'an is with 'Ali; they shall never separate from one another until they reach to me at the Fountain (on the day of Resurrection)."14

Abu Sa'id al-Khudari reports that one day we were sitting waiting for the Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) to come out. He came to us while we saw that the strap of his shoe was broken; he gave it to 'Ali to repair. Then he said,

"One of you will wage war for the interpretation (ta'wil) of the Qur'an just as I waged war for its revelation (tanzil)."

Abu Bakr said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No." Then 'Umar said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No, but the one who is repairing the shoe."15

Imam 'Ali himself said, "Ask me before you lose me, for by the One who split the grain and created the soul, if you ask me as to which verse was revealed at night time or at day time, whether it is of Meccan or Medinite [era], during journey (of the Prophet) or while in Medina, whether it is abrogator or abrogated, whether it is clear or allegorical, and whether you need its interpretation or context of its revelation-I shall inform you about it."16

It is based on these facts supported by the Sunni sources that the Shi'as use the title "al-Qur'anu 'n-Natiq" for their Imams. As we saw above, Imam 'Ali himself claims to have the true and inner meanings of the Qur'anic verses. This claim and belief has been there from the earliest days of Shi'ism. So it is incorrect to place the beginning of this concept in the latter period by saying that "the belief that the Imams were the 'speaking (al-natiq) Qur'an,' who knew the esoteric interpretation of the Book, most probably began during al-Baqir's time."17)

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/knowledge-ahlul-bayt#6-concept-al-quran-natiq

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Salam,

I believe Tawhid, Nubuwwah and Imamah are individual struggles to hold on to. If we say Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is our Wali, what will be our responsibilities in order to accept Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as our Wali.  So we struggle and seek knowledge through every possible ways to understand and submit to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as Wali.  Some read Qur'an, books, pray at night for years, fast, travel, think...  Then only we can conclude for ourselves, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is our Wali.  We hope Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) accept our endeavors or struggles to make His as Wali.

If we say Muhammad is our Wali.  We also put efforts and we practice what Rasulullah has taught us, we read historical evidences, we struggle so that we understand and accept that Muhammad Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is in reality is our Wali.

The approach that  all Muslims who believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Muhammad and Quran should be the same when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) say...

Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
(English - Shakir)

If a person who believes that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Vali upon our own self, so will be the Prophet and Imam Ali.

Struggles with sincerity are needed to understand and make Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasulullah and those who keep up prayers (Imam Ali) as our Vali.

If after the wafat of Rasul, the first 3 Quresh Leaders and many so called companions didn't accept Ali as their Vali , how do we expect many current common people who are bombarded with misinformation will understand and follow.

Qur'an is very clear...we show sincere struggle, we will get the result.

وَالَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا فِينَا لَنَهْدِيَنَّهُمْ سُبُلَنَا ۚ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمَعَ الْمُحْسِنِينَ {69}

[Shakir 29:69] And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good.

Then we will see and meet the real Imams.

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10 hours ago, 786:) said:

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

I will take the word of our Lord who sent this down. Any narration that says otherwise is as good as the word of Donald Trump for me. 

Opposing  "Classical Scholors" now?

Well thats great.

Prove that this verse means you can't delete anything from Quran.

Show comments of Masoom (عليه السلام) on this ayah where they said it means nothing can be added or deleted from Quran. Else it's Tafseer bir raye and tafseer bir raye is nothing but Haram and kufr.

And you do this to reject 100s of authentic narrations?

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19 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Opposing  "Classical Scholors"

Majlisi said that he gathered the weak and strong narrations of the Ahlulbayt so that whatever pertains to their authentic tradition would not be lost, the idea of tahreef Al-Quran not only goes against the promise of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is also against the consensus of scholars. You taking a couple hadiths and trying to build this deviant narrative are the one who is not only opposing scholars, but the Quran as well.

Yes there are different Qiraat when it comes to the conjugation of the verses, however, to say a verse is completely omitted is an astounding claim, for example Imam Ali verified the Quran we have today when Othman presented it to him - the only difference is that Imam Ali introduced a Quran with foot notes and his Quran was chronological instead of it being from the biggest Surah to the smallest. 

 

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