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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imams of ahlul bayt alive and can hear.

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18 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Do you know even basic Arabic my friend? هو as a pronoun can never have اصحاب as its ضمير

Look dear, if it is really that difficult for you to translate following simple sentence:

و من جملة الشيعة اصحاب يونس بن عبد الرحمن القمى زعم

please take the help of Google translate. Earlier you translated it as:

10 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

From among the Shi'ah are the companions of Yunus bin Abdur Rahman al-Qummi. He (Yunus) claimed..."

 

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@Cherub786 Rasool Allah [saww] addressing the Kuffar who were killed in the battle of Badr Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: “The Messenger of Allah spoke to the People (buried) in the Well saying: “Have

@Cherub786 so you’re just going to disagree with every comment and not reply to the sufficient evidences we provided. Kind of ironic how we’re talking about the “deaf, [and] blind”.

Obviously not. Obviously yes. Is this really a mainstream thing to do? I don’t think this is haram or shirk, but probably useless. It also doesn’t really make any sense for people who be

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Look dear, if it is really that difficult for you to translate following simple sentence:

و من جملة الشيعة اصحاب يونس بن عبد الرحمن القمى زعم

please take the help of Google translate. Earlier you translated it as:

If you don't trust my translation and are disputing it, what do you say about professional, published English translations of this sentence (like I posted previously) where it is clearly translated to mean Yunus himself (singular) claimed Allah is carried by the Angels and the Throne.

You are getting desperate and in the process making yourself look foolish by claiming that the singular pronoun هو can be applied to a group of people. I just don't know how I can take you seriously after such a major blunder. Why not just admit your mistake and move on? Why do you let pride prevent you from admitting you made a huge blunder in basic Arabic?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Now let me translate this sentence from the original quote I cited about the Yunusiyah from al-Milal wan-Nihal:

وهو من مشبهة الشيعة

And he (Yunus) was from the Mushabbihah of the Shi'ah

 

25 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

You are getting desperate and in the process making yourself look foolish by claiming that the singular pronoun هو can be applied to a group of people

No I am neither desperate nor I am foolish. The first quoted sentence in Arabic language gives the impression that the writer was unaware of who Yunus actually was. 

He was not مشبهة but was a شيعة، clear cut shia, he is among the people of consensus. Was a companion of Imam Al Kazim (عليه السلام) & Imam Ali Al Ridha (عليه السلام)

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12 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

No I am neither desperate nor I am foolish. The first quoted sentence in Arabic language gives the impression that the writer was unaware of who Yunus actually was. 

He was not مشبهة but was a شيعة، clear cut shia, he was among the people of consensus. 

Mushabbihah and Shi'ah are not mutually exclusive. The worst mushabbihah, historically, were Shi'ites. For example, one of your major Shi'ite theologians, Hisham ibn al-Hakam, believed: "Allah is a body with dimensions, he has height, breadth and depth (thickness), and all of these are equal (of equal height, breadth and depth)." Another one of your Shi'ite theologians was Hisham bin Salim al-Jawaliqi, he believed: "what he worshipped is in the form of a man, but without being flesh and blood, that his deity is a diffused white light. He claimed that his deity has five senses and has hands, feet, eyes, ears, nose, mouth. He claimed that his upper half is hollow and the lower half is solid, and that his object of worship has black hair, being made of black light, whereas the rest is white light." And a third of your Shi'ite theologians was Dawud al-Jawaribi, he believed: "his deity is a body in the form of a human with flesh and blood and said his upper half is hollow and lower half is solid. That he has curly hair. However he claimed it is a body unlike the bodies and flesh unlike the fleshes and blood unlike the bloods. He said, 'Pardon me for the beard and private parts, but ask me about anything else.'"

These are the worst examples of anthropotheism, and they were taught by major Shi'ite theologians.

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

Mushabbihah and Shi'ah are not mutually exclusive.

Now you brought a new claim for further embarrassing yourself. 

13 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

These are the worst examples of anthropotheism, and they were taught by major Shi'ite theologians.

What was taught by the Imams of Shia?

Right now I have you with me who believe that his god can be carried. 

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

As for your Imams, they were actually Sunni.

Indeed, who else can represent Sunnah if not the Imams of Ahlul Bayt. And so do we too. We are the true sunnis, 

On the other hand, you are just  punni.

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6 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

When did I say I believe that?

 

On 8/19/2020 at 3:07 PM, Cherub786 said:

I said Angels carry the Throne.

And you believe Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is literally sitting upon throne. Throne is carried by Angels. So whether you say or not that your God is carried, it doesn't matter. The above is the end result of such a belief that Allah is literally sitting upon throne. This belief itself is condemned by a majority of Ahlul Sunnah Scholars.

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9 minutes ago, Cool said:

And you believe Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is literally sitting upon throne. Throne is carried by Angels. So whether you say or not that your God is carried, it doesn't matter. The above is the end result of such a belief that Allah is literally sitting upon throne. This belief itself is condemned by a majority of Ahlul Sunnah Scholars.

Yes I said the Angels carry the Throne, I never said the Angels carry Allah, or that the Throne carries Allah.

And btw, I don't necessarily disagree with Yunus al-Qummi's belief that the Angels carry Allah though He is stronger than them. By emphasizing the caveat "He is stronger than them", Yunus al-Qummi actually saved himself from a serious misguidance. Apparently, his belief was that the Angels carry Allah as a means of demonstrating Allah's Glory and Honor, but that does not necessitate that Allah needs to be carried, or that He is weaker than the Angels. Carrying someone can be for two reasons: 1. they are too weak and require being carried, 2. it is a symbolic act of respect and devotion. Obviously, Yunus al-Qummi believed the latter. Therefore, his belief is not kufr according to me. I simply do not say what he said because we have no proof of it from our Creed.

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On 8/18/2020 at 6:20 AM, Cherub786 said:

This division between physical and spiritual realm is speculative. We simply do not know the full reality of the Afterlife and Paradise. I am not commenting on the nature of the realm in which the souls of the Martyrs are taken, but I am commenting on the fact that the souls of the martyrs are not alive with their earthly, corporal bodies, they are not alive in our world.

You asked a very strange question which is to prove that the Ruh is Ruhani and not Jismani. The word Ruhani is derived from Ruh, therefore, a life of the Ruh without a Jism is necessarily a purely Ruhani life.

Having said that, we believe that the spirits of the martyrs are alive in Paradise, and that they are carried in the bellies of green birds. Note, this does not mean the Spirit of the Martyrs is incarnated into the body of a green bird, it means their spirits are carried in the belly of a green bird which acts as a vehicle or vessel, similar to how we may sit inside and travel inside a vehicle (car, ship, plane, train, etc.)

As for the affairs of the grave, I believe the world of barzakh is a parallel grave where the spirit of the deceased is given a parallel body, not the earthly corporal body of this world which evidently decays and decomposes into nothing but bones and dust. The soul is granted a parallel body in the Barzakh through which it is either punished or experience of delight.

So I return to my original point which is that the Martyrs are unable to hear us, because they no longer exist in our dimension. It is futile to call upon them or speak to the deceased, for they cannot hear anything whatsoever from our world

 You haven't advanced to anything new from the Quranic perspective? This notion of yours that: Earthly corporal body of this world which evidently decays and decomposes into nothing. Though its true in normal circumstances in normal deaths, but is it the same for martyrs?  

There is a view  from amongst  Ahlus sunnah wal Jamaa, which diagree with your view.  We find proof from the authentic Sunnah that the bodies of the Prophets do not decompose.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Verily, Allah has forbidden the Earth to consume the bodies of the Prophets.” (Sunan Abî Dâwûd (1047), Sunan al-Nasâ’î (1374), and Sunan Ibn Mâjah (1636).)

The Selected Pious Ones

Az-Zarqânî (rahimahullah) has also mentioned numerous other claims that have been made regarding bodies that do not decompose, including those of the scholars who practice according to their knowledge, those who call the prayer on a voluntary basis, those who memorize the Qur’ân and act upon its teachings, those who die of plague while exhibiting forbearance, and others.

However,the crux of my view point is: How do you "Conclude the its a spiritual life and not material life? Which verse alludes to its a spiritual life in relation to Martyers in Paradise? If you can provide a verse I will concede.

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3 minutes ago, power said:

 You haven't advanced to anything new from the Quranic perspective? This notion of yours that: Earthly corporal body of this world which evidently decays and decomposes into nothing. Though its true in normal circumstances in normal deaths, but is it the same for martyrs?

Yes, it is the same for everyone. If you say martyrs are an exception to the natural process of decomposition of the corpse, you have to prove it. And if it could be proven that the corpse of the martyr does not decompose like the corpses of other deceased humans, then we should expect a mass conversion to Islam around the world.

Quote

There is a view  from amongst  Ahlus sunnah wal Jamaa, which diagree with your view.  We find proof from the authentic Sunnah that the bodies of the Prophets do not decompose.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Verily, Allah has forbidden the Earth to consume the bodies of the Prophets.” (Sunan Abî Dâwûd (1047), Sunan al-Nasâ’î (1374), and Sunan Ibn Mâjah (1636).)

You claim this is authentic, but it is a weak Hadith. Here is what a truly authentic Hadith says:

كُلُّ ابْنِ آدَمَ يَأْكُلُهُ التُّرَابُ إِلَّا عَجْبَ الذَّنَبِ مِنْهُ خُلِقَ وَفِيهِ يُرَكَّبُ

Translation: “All of the son of man is consumed by dust except the tailbone (coccyx) from which he was created and from which he shall be re-assembled [on the Day of Ressurection].” (Sahih Muslim)

It can also be translated "every son of Adam", meaning there is no exception to this natural phenomenon.

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Az-Zarqânî (rahimahullah) has also mentioned numerous other claims that have been made regarding bodies that do not decompose, including those of the scholars who practice according to their knowledge, those who call the prayer on a voluntary basis, those who memorize the Qur’ân and act upon its teachings, those who die of plague while exhibiting forbearance, and others.

Total rubbish, not even worth the paper it was written on.

Quote

However,the crux of my view point is: How do you "Conclude the its a spiritual life and not material life? Which verse alludes to its a spiritual life in relation to Martyers in Paradise? If you can provide a verse I will concede.

It's immaterial (pardon the pun) whether the martyrs enjoy a spiritual life or a material life in the Afterlife. My point is their lives have no connection to this world, and their earthly, corporal bodies are not alive, they are buried in graves where they gradually decompose into nothing but bones and dust.

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10 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Yes I said the Angels carry the Throne, I never said the Angels carry Allah, or that the Throne carries Allah.

You're a liar you know. Here is what is written on your website:

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So I believe that Allah Most High occupies the Throne, it is filled with His Glory, and His Presence dwells there. He is settled upon it, and it may be said that He is sitting upon it. 

http://www.salvationfromhell.com/?m=1

About rest of your comment about Yunus Al-Qummi, I don't want to further embarrass you as you are already embarrassed. 

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Guest Chuck
On 8/14/2020 at 8:37 PM, Cherub786 said:

The reality of Ashab al-Kahf is something most Muslims don't understand. The Quran actually says "do you think the companions of the cave and inscription were a strange thing from Our Signs?", it's a rhetorical question meaning the entire episode of Ashab al-Kahf as Allah describes in Quran is not actually supernatural or paranormal. They are described as sleeping in an esoteric sense, but in our observation, if we saw them, we would not think they were sleeping:

وَتَحْسَبُهُمْ أَيْقَاظًا وَهُمْ رُقُودٌ

And you would think them awake, while they were asleep (18:18)

Now if they were literally sleeping, why would we think they were awake if we were to see them. This is the major clue which vast majority of Muslims just skip over and fail to grasp.

Btw, where is the Buraq ever described as a horse with wings? You asked why, if it was a spiritual ascension, was there a need for a vessel. Before I answer, ask yourself why, when we die, our spirits are raised up by Angels:

 

الْمَيِّتُ تَحْضُرُهُ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ فَإِذَا كَانَ الرَّجُلُ صَالِحًا قَالُوا ‏:‏ اخْرُجِي أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الطَّيِّبَةُ كَانَتْ فِي الْجَسَدِ الطَّيِّبِ اخْرُجِي حَمِيدَةً وَأَبْشِرِي بِرَوْحٍ وَرَيْحَانٍ وَرَبٍّ غَيْرِ غَضْبَانَ فَلاَ يَزَالُ يُقَالُ لَهَا ذَلِكَ حَتَّى تَخْرُجَ ثُمَّ يُعْرَجُ بِهَا إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَيُفْتَحُ لَهَا فَيُقَالُ ‏:‏ مَنْ هَذَا فَيَقُولُونَ ‏:‏ فُلاَنٌ ‏.‏ فَيُقَالُ ‏:‏ مَرْحَبًا بِالنَّفْسِ الطَّيِّبَةِ، كَانَتْ فِي الْجَسَدِ الطَّيِّبِ ادْخُلِي حَمِيدَةً، وَأَبْشِرِي بِرَوْحٍ وَرَيْحَانٍ وَرَبٍّ غَيْرِ غَضْبَانَ ‏.‏ فَلاَ يَزَالُ يُقَالُ لَهَا ذَلِكَ حَتَّى يُنْتَهَى بِهَا إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الَّتِي فِيهَا اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ

Angels come to the dying person, and if the man was righteous, they say: ‘Come out, O good soul that was in a good body, come out praiseworthy and receive glad tidings of mercy and fragrance and a Lord Who is not angry.’ And this is repeated until it comes out, then it is taken up to heaven, and it is opened for it, and it is asked: ‘Who is this?’ They say: ‘So-and-so.’ It is said: ‘Welcome to the good soul that was in a good body. Enter praiseworthy and receive the glad tidings of mercy and fragrance and a Lord Who is not angry.’ And this is repeated until it is brought to the heaven above which is Allah. (Sunan Ibn Maja #4262)

So in Islamic doctrine, human souls or spirits do not just float up to Heaven by themselves, they require an Angel or an Angelic vessel to ascend. But let me turn the tables on you, you seem to believe the Prophet's Mi'raj was corporal with his Earthly body, how can a corporal, earthly body ascend through the Seven Heavens and survive? Where is the oxygen? How can it withstand the speed that would be required? There are so many problems you will have to deal with.

Of course I'm not a Barelawi, but my thoughts aren't fringe either.

Most Muslims don’t understand BUT you do, lol.

well if we need angels that take us up as “vessels”........what was the buraq there for? If prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was on a spiritual journey what’s the significance of buraq?

As for your question how can a corporal body ascend to heaven?

I will post a Quranic verse for you to ponder over......17:1) Holy is He Who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque (in Makkah) to the farther Mosque (in Jerusalem) whose surroundings We have blessed that We might show him some of Our Signs.1 Indeed He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

so can you show me the SPIRITUAL journey?

As far as I can gather “Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) carried His servant”............are you ADDING spiritual because somehow it doesn’t make sense to you being raised up in a corporal body? Miracles are from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), could Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) used His miracle here? Or are you just adamant that you are right because it doesn’t make sense?

Even your theory on prophet Isa as is laughable at best to be honest, miracles must not happen in your mind unless it can be explained.

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These tendencies existed in the past. Al-Mufīd died in the year 413/1022.

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Al-Mufīd goes on to deal with the miracles attributed to ‘Alī.

During the course of his presentation of the miracles, he takes great pains to argue against the rationalist tendency present in society, which denied miracles.

Page: Xi

Kitāb al-Irshād was written by al-Mufīd 

https://www.shia-maktab.info/index.php/en/library/books/english?format=raw&task=download&fid=93

SOME OF THE MIRACLES OF THE Commander of the Faithful on Page 214.

Miracles which are associated with the Holy Imam(عليه السلام) are nothing out of a comfort zone of the people f they had read some of the Qur'an and the miracles in it. 

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ {1}

[Shakir 17:1] Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
[Pickthal 17:1] Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.
[Yusufali 17:1] Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

As you see above, people believe in a god who prides himself (Glorified is HE) in taking his servant of a "spiritual' journey. Meaning they doubt their god has the  ability to what the Qur'an actually states. 

This is one of the reason(s) Allah(عزّ وجلّ) gave the ability to the Holy Imams(عليه السلام) so they(people) understand if these servants of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) can raise the dead, what about their lord. 

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14 hours ago, Guest Chuck said:

well if we need angels that take us up as “vessels”........what was the buraq there for? If prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was on a spiritual journey what’s the significance of buraq?

The Buraq is another celestial vessel that carried both the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and Angel Gabriel during the Mi’raj. I suspect it was also a means of honoring the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

14 hours ago, Guest Chuck said:

As for your question how can a corporal body ascend to heaven?

I will post a Quranic verse for you to ponder over......17:1) Holy is He Who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque (in Makkah) to the farther Mosque (in Jerusalem) whose surroundings We have blessed that We might show him some of Our Signs.1 Indeed He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

so can you show me the SPIRITUAL journey?

As far as I can gather “Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) carried His servant”............are you ADDING spiritual because somehow it doesn’t make sense to you being raised up in a corporal body? Miracles are from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), could Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) used His miracle here? Or are you just adamant that you are right because it doesn’t make sense?

If you examine 17:1 carefully, notice it says:

سُبۡحٰنَ الَّذِیۡۤ اَسۡرٰی بِعَبۡدِہٖ لَیۡلًا

Isra by definition is a journey that happens at night. So why did Allah mention Lail? Isn’t it redundant?

The only logical answer I can think of to this problem is that Lail is mentioned to indicate that this was a vision/dream of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

So compare 17:1 with 6:60 where Lail clearly indicates sleep:

وَ ہُوَ الَّذِیۡ یَتَوَفّٰٮکُمۡ بِالَّیۡلِ

He it is Who take you by night

Take” means the taking of the soul while you sleep, it doesn’t mean taking of you in your corporal body. That is why Lail is mentioned in 17:1 as a hint that it was during sleep at night, a vision, and not a corporal journey.

A Hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari has the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم saying that he was taken on Isra while he was in a state midway between sleep and wakefulness. Another Hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari has the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم narrating the incident of Mi’raj as a dream. In the context of that Hadith, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was sitting with his Companions رضى الله عنهم after Fajr and as per usual asked them if any of them saw a dream last night. When none of them answered in the affirmative, he then relayed his own dream, describing the Mi’raj.

As for it being impossible that a human ascend into the Heavens in his corporal body, read 17:93

Also, read 17:60 which describes the Isra as a Ru’yah (vision). Don’t just read 17:1, read the entire chapter especially these other verses I’ve cited.

Edited by Cherub786
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3 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Isra by definition is a journey that happens at night. So why did Allah mention Lail? Isn’t it redundant?

The only logical answer I can think of to this problem is that Lail is mentioned to indicate that this was a vision/dream of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

Hmmm, redundant!!! 

Lets see this first:

فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطْعٍ مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ 

11:81

فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطْعٍ مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ 

15:65

If Isra by definition means journey by night, why night is mentioned in these two verses? 

As per your logic فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطْعٍ would be sufficient. So here Allah must be commanding His prophets to depart with his family/followers in part of dream?

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4 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

As for it being impossible that a human ascend into the Heavens in his corporal body, read 17:93

You don't look into Quran to see the exceptions. The following verse breakdown your this argument of impossibility:

يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَن تَنفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانفُذُوا لَا تَنفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ

55:33

Look at "illa besultan", so it is certainly possible for a human to ascend into the heavens in his corporal body, by the permission & authority of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 

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28 minutes ago, Cool said:

Hmmm, redundant!!! 

Lets see this first:

فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطْعٍ مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ 

11:81

فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطْعٍ مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ 

15:65

If Isra by definition means journey by night, why night is mentioned in these two verses? 

As per your logic فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطْعٍ would be sufficient. So here Allah must be commanding His prophets to depart with his family/followers in part of dream?

In the examples you quoted it is not redundant because the Verses are saying that he and his family were to depart not in the night generally, but in a specific portion of the night. That is why your idea that the Verse should then read:

فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطْعٍ

doesn’t make sense, because قطع means “part”. If we take out Lail from the Ayah it reads “So set out with your family in a night-journey in a part...” part of what?

But in 17:1, it seems redundant to say “Holy is He Who took His servant on a night journey by night”

The solution to this apparent redundancy is this “Holy is He Who took His servant on a night journey as a night dream”

6:60 is the example of Lail connoting a night dream

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29 minutes ago, Cool said:

You don't look into Quran to see the exceptions. The following verse breakdown your this argument of impossibility:

يَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَن تَنفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانفُذُوا لَا تَنفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ

55:33

Look at "illa besultan", so it is certainly possible for a human to ascend into the heavens in his corporal body, by the permission & authority of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

55:33 does not explicitly attest to the possibility of humans and jinns ascending beyond the zones of the Heavens. The Verse only means to say that humans and jinns would not be able to do this without Sultan, that is, Allah’s authority.

Only if the Ayah affirmed Sultan for humans and jinns to do this could you then argue that the possibility is affirmed. But reread the Ayah, it is quite evident that Sultan has not been granted.

Let me give you an example to illustrate. Suppose I told my sons "You cannot open my special safe containing many hidden treasures without the key which only I possess"

In this sentence, possibility for my sons to open the special safe has not been affirmed. Only if they had possession of the key could it be affirmed, but in this sentence I did not actually say I would give them the key.

Likewise in 55:33 Allah did not actually say He would give Sultan to humans and jinns to ascend beyond the boundaries of the Heavens.

Edited by Cherub786
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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

In the examples you quoted it is not redundant because the Verses are saying that he and his family were to depart not in the night generally, but in a specific portion of the night.

When "isra" (night journey) can be used with a specific part of night, it can also be used for one whole night.

 

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

But in 17:1, it seems redundant to say “Holy is He Who took His servant on a night journey by night”

It does make sense even if we consider your definition of "isra". 

As per our understanding the word "isra" in 17:1 means "to take, to made to go".

Quote

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ {1}

[Shakir 17:1] Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.


[Pickthal 17:1] Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.


[Yusufali 17:1] Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

And here is what Quran Arabic Corpus mentions:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=17&verse=1

Sahih International: Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-haram to al-Masjid al- Aq§a, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

55:33 does not explicitly attest to the possibility of humans and jinns ascending beyond the zones of the Heavens

So you don't believe you Lord is "Al-Qadir"? You are doubting on the divine capacity & claiming the impossibility of human to ascend to heavens even if God wills so? 

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10 hours ago, Cool said:

When "isra" (night journey) can be used with a specific part of night, it can also be used for one whole night.

Like I said, using night journey along with night in the general sense is redundancy. “I went on a night journey during the night” I hope you can see how that is redundant. But if I said “I went on a night journey during a specific part of the night” or “I went on a night journey after midnight” it isn’t redundant because the second clause of the sentence is qualifying and explaining the first.

11 hours ago, Cool said:

As per our understanding the word "isra" in 17:1 means "to take, to made to go".

Research more deeply into the actual meaning of the word, don’t just quote imperfect English translations of the Quran. You need to consult actual linguistic authorities and dictionaries, for example, the Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic Usage:

435.png.6330710ecbf84bd1d7e69bd1d66e225b.png

Consult any accredited linguistic authority in the Arabic language, I guarantee you the meaning of Isra is a journey that happens at night.

11 hours ago, Cool said:

So you don't believe you Lord is "Al-Qadir"? You are doubting on the divine capacity & claiming the impossibility of human to ascend to heavens even if God wills so? 

This is not a question of God’s power and ability, but a question of human power and ability. Humans don’t have the power and ability to ascend through the Seven Heavens in their corporal, earthly bodies. This isn’t simply a scientific fact, it is stated in the Quran itself (17:93). Therefore, if it is a question of Allah’s will, then we know that it is Allah’s will that humans have this fundamental limitation. That is because the laws which govern the cosmos are divine laws instituted by Allah Himself, reflecting His will.

Furthermore, you are making a specific claim that Allah willed for the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to ascend into Heaven with his corporal, earthly body, that too based on your faulty interpretation of 17:1 which I’ve already pointed out.

Read the very same chapter, go to verse 93, what does it say:

اَوۡ یَکُوۡنَ لَکَ بَیۡتٌ مِّنۡ زُخۡرُفٍ اَوۡ تَرۡقٰی فِی السَّمَآءِ ؕ وَ لَنۡ نُّؤۡمِنَ لِرُقِیِّکَ حَتّٰی تُنَزِّلَ عَلَیۡنَا کِتٰبًا نَّقۡرَؤُہٗ ؕ قُلۡ سُبۡحَانَ رَبِّیۡ ہَلۡ کُنۡتُ اِلَّا بَشَرًا رَّسُوۡلًا

Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.’

The Meccan polytheists challenged the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم with many challenges, among them was that he ascend into Heaven. In response, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was not directed to say “I already ascended into Heaven during my Mi’raj”. This indicates that it was understood, among both the Muslims and Meccan polytheists that the Prophet’s Mi’raj was not him bodily ascending into Heaven, but a vision and a spiritual ascension. Therefore, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was directed to answer “I am only a bashar” in response to the ridiculous challenges posed to him, indicating that it is impossible for a bashar, a mortal human, to ascend into Heaven in his corporal body.

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I guarantee you the meaning of Isra is a journey that happens at night.

And I guarantee you it also means means something other than night journey too. Here is the clear evidence.

فَأَسْرِ بِعِبَادِي لَيْلًا إِنَّكُم مُّتَّبَعُونَ

44:23

Same word, same root, different meaning and "layl" is also there. 

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

This is not a question of God’s power and ability, but a question of human power and ability. Humans don’t have the power and ability to ascend through the Seven Heavens in their corporal, earthly bodies. This isn’t simply a scientific fact, it is stated in the Quran itself (17:93). Therefore, if it is a question of Allah’s will, then we know that it is Allah’s will that humans have this fundamental limitation. That is because the laws which govern the cosmos are divine laws instituted by Allah Himself, reflecting His will.

Do humans have the capacity to give a virgin birth? Can they make the dead alive? 

Now I am leaving upon readers to get the idea & you are set free to apply the above logic & deny each & every miracle.

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21 minutes ago, Cool said:

Do humans have the capacity to give a virgin birth? Can they make the dead alive? 

Now I am leaving upon readers to get the idea & you are set free to apply the above logic & deny each & every miracle.

As for virgin birth, it is certainly possible but extremely rare, such that it was a Sign in favor of Virgin Mary and Jesus عليهما السلام

As we speak, amazing research is being done on the possibility of parthenogenesis in humans.

As for the dead coming back to life in this world, the Quran also says this is impossible, but it is possible and has happened that those who were in the throes of death were revived to life.

At the end of the day, we have to read the Quran and learn what is possible and impossible for humans. The Quran in 17:93 makes it explicit that it is impossible for mortal humans to ascend into the Heavens in their corporal bodies.

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6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

As for virgin birth, it is certainly possible but extremely rare

So it is possible for a woman to get pregnant without being injected the sperms by any mean? A woman can reproduce asexually like Comodo Dragons do in certain conditions?

So there could be other females out of billions who might have given a virgin births? Means Marry & Jesus are not the miracles of God, as it is natural tendency in humans to reproduce asexually? 

I see it as your denial to accept the fact the humans naturally, cannot reproduce asexually. And it is perhaps a denial to accept the miracles of God in the form of Lady Marry (عليه السلام) & Jesus (عليه السلام)

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

As for the dead coming back to life in this world, the Quran also says this is impossible, but it is possible and has happened that those who were in the throes of death were revived to life.

The same highlighted logic can be applied on "isra". It may be impossible naturally but it is made possible for Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as mentioned in 17:1 and as further given exception in the verse 55:33 ( إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ)

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The Quran in 17:93 makes it explicit that it is impossible for mortal humans to ascend into the Heavens in their corporal bodies.

Where it says it is impossible for humans to ascend to heavens? 

أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِنْ زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَىٰ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَنْ نُؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّىٰ تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَقْرَؤُهُ ۗ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنْتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَسُولًا {93}

Please show me in Arabic text, the EXPLICIT words mentioning the impossibility? 

 

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

So it is possible for a woman to get pregnant without being injected the sperms by any mean?

Yes I believe it is. Read about parthenogenesis.

2 minutes ago, Cool said:

Means Marry & Jesus are not the miracles of God

What is a “miracle”?

Notice the word “miracle” never occurs in the Quran. The Quran uses the word Sign. And Sign isn’t used only for paranormal activity, but also that which is normal and natural

وَ جَعَلۡنَا الَّیۡلَ وَ النَّہَارَ اٰیَتَیۡنِ

And We have made the night and the day two Signs (17:12)

The virgin birth of Jesus Christ على نبينا وعليه الصلاة والسلام was a divine Sign. It was certainly a paranormal, unusual and extraordinary thing, but not necessarily supernatural. Even if it was supernatural, we believe it because it is taught in the holy Quran.

7 minutes ago, Cool said:

The same highlighted logic can be applied on "isra". It may be impossible naturally but it is made possible for Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as mentioned in 17:1 and as further given exception in the verse 55:33 ( إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ)

I’ve already answered and explained 17:1 and 55:33.

17:93 is speaking first and foremost about the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. Therefore, you cannot interpret 17:1 in a way that contradicts 17:93, they must be interpreted so that they are reconciled, as there can be no contradiction in the Quran. 17:93 is the muhkam Ayah on this subject, whereas 17:1 is mutashabih, meaning it can be interpreted in multiple ways, so it must be interpreted in a way as to be in accord with the muhkamat. That is the methodology of the Quran as laid down in 3:7

9 minutes ago, Cool said:

Where it says it is impossible for humans to ascend to heavens? 

أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِنْ زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَىٰ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَنْ نُؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّىٰ تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَقْرَؤُهُ ۗ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنْتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَسُولًا {93}

Please show me in Arabic text, the EXPLICIT words mentioning the impossibility? 

Hal Kuntu Illa Basharar Rasula “am I not but a mortal human messenger?” in answer to the challenge to Tarqa fis-Samaa “ascend into Heaven”.

It plainly means the Prophet cannot ascend into Heaven because he is a mortal human. What is your contrary interpretation of this very straightforward Ayah?

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5 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Yes I believe it is. Read about parthenogenesis.

Well, its better if you read science specifically parthenogenesis as well as cloning to know asexual human reproduction is not possible naturally.

7 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Hal Kuntu Illa Basharar Rasula “am I not but a mortal human messenger?” in answer to the challenge to Tarqa fis-Samaa “ascend into Heaven”.

Is this you call EXPLICIT?

Infact, there were a series of challenges start from verse 90. 

By "Basharar Rasula" it doesn't mean humans cannot ascend to heavens. Human sit in space shuttle & go into space often.

This statement is not a negation, it rather means I can only do that by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & not on your request.

وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَن يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ

So the first challenge:

وَقَالُوا لَنْ نُؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّىٰ تَفْجُرَ لَنَا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ يَنْبُوعًا {90}

[Shakir 17:90] And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.

It is not impossible for a Prophet to do that. In fact Prophet Musa did that by striking his عصا on Earth and 12 fountains gush forth. Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can certainly do that too upon the divine command.

On the other hand, 55:33 clearly states the possibility of ascension  ( إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ). And divine authorization & protocol is mentioned in 17:1 

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night

He just not authorized the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but He take him with complete protocol.  

 

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Guest Ibn arabi

Well what about Idris as? Didn’t the angel of death take His soul in the 4th heaven where incidentally prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saw Him?

He travelled with an angel in His corporeal body without any “vessel”.

I await your answer bro.

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12 hours ago, Guest Ibn arabi said:

Well what about Idris as? Didn’t the angel of death take His soul in the 4th heaven where incidentally prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saw Him?

He travelled with an angel in His corporeal body without any “vessel”.

I await your answer bro.

This story is from the Israeliyyat, it’s not established as a Hadith Marfu of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

It may also be based on an imaginative tafsir of the Ayah by some creative storyteller:

وَّ رَفَعۡنٰہُ مَکَانًا عَلِیًّا

And We exalted him (Idris) to a lofty station (19:57)

The rafa spoken of here is the ascension of the soul and not the body.

The idea that sayyidina Idris عليه السلام was physically lifted to Heaven on the back of an Angel and then his soul was extracted from his body by Malak Azra’il عليه السلام at the Fourth Heaven is contrary to the teaching of the Quran, which says:

وَ لَکُمۡ فِی الۡاَرۡضِ مُسۡتَقَرٌّ وَّ مَتَاعٌ اِلٰی حِیۡنٍ

قَالَ فِیۡہَا تَحۡیَوۡنَ وَ فِیۡہَا تَمُوۡتُوۡنَ وَ مِنۡہَا تُخۡرَجُوۡنَ

And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time. He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.’ (7:24-25)

So humans are meant to die on the Earth, not in the fourth Heaven.

Ibn Atiyyah (d.546 H) mentions the view of a group of exegetes in his Tafsir:

فقال جماعة من العلماء هو رفع النبوءة والتشريف والمنزلة وهو في السماء كما سائر الأنبياء

A group from the Ulama say that he (Idris) was raised in Prophesy, nobility, and status, and that he is in Heaven like the rest of the Prophets.”

Idris%2Braised%2Bin%2BProphethood%2Band%2BStatus.%2BIn%2BHeaven%2Blike%2Brest%2Bof%2BProphets%2B%2528Tafsir%2BIbn%2BAtiyyah%2Bp.1232%2529.png

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17 hours ago, Cool said:

On the other hand, 55:33 clearly states the possibility of ascension  ( إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ).

No it doesn’t, and I’ve already explained it to you but you still don’t understand. Possibility can only be affirmed if Sultan was affirmed, but 55:33 doesn’t affirm Sultan.

There’s a difference between saying “you can only open the door if you have the key” (no affirmation of key being granted, hence no affirmation of possibility of opening the door)

and saying “you can open the door since you have the key” (affirmation of possession of key, therefore affirmation of possibility of opening the door)

55:33 mirrors the former sentence, not the latter.

17 hours ago, Cool said:

And divine authorization & protocol is mentioned in 17:1 

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night

He just not authorized the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but He take him with complete protocol. 

I assume 17:93 was revealed subsequent to 17:1. Do you object?

Now here’s the question: 17:93 is a response to the challenges from the pagans, among them is the challenge to ascend into Heaven. Why would the pagans make this challenge, and why would it be answered “am I not but a human messenger” if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم already physically ascended into Heaven?

And what is your answer to 17:60 which describes the Isra and Mi’raj as a “Ru’yah” vision?

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6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Possibility can only be affirmed if Sultan was affirmed, but 55:33 doesn’t affirm Sultan.

The question of "Sultan" becomes vain when 17:1 starts with "Subhan Allathi". It is God who is taking the claim of taking His servant to jouney qt night. Now whatever you are doubting at, is nothing but the qudrat of Almighty Lord. 

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I assume 17:93 was revealed subsequent to 17:1. Do you object?

Instead of assuming your whims, why don't you simply accept the truth? And truth is that God took him to Isra and truth is that:

 

وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَن يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Why would the pagans make this challenge, and why would it be answered “am I not but a human messenger” if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم already physically ascended into Heaven?

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

And what is your answer to 17:60 which describes the Isra and Mi’raj as a “Ru’yah” vision?

The dream or vision does not refer to mi-raj because it was neither a disheartening event nor a trial for his ummah. It was a highest honour and glory bestowed on His habib. The cursed tree also does not refer to zaqqam (Saffat: 62 to 65; Dukhan: 43 to 46 and Waqi-ah: 52) because hell and its contents are not cursed but are means made by Allah to punish the wicked. There is no authentic tradition to support that either the vision refers to the conquest of Makka (Fat-h: 27) or the battle of Badr (Anfal: 43). According to the Ahl ul Bayt it refers to the dream (monkeys sitting on the Holy Prophet's pulpit) which Allah showed to him about a tribe (Bani Umayyah) from among his followers who had destroyed the spirit of Islam after him; that was a time of trial for the true believers. The Holy Prophet saw in his dream that like those Jews who did not believe and were cursed by Dawud and Isa (Ma-idah: 78 and 79) his followers would also deviate from the right path. but would not be able to harm the true faith because his Ahl ul Bayt would be there to safeguard the religion of Allah from the mischief of the deviating monkeys. 

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On 10/2/2020 at 5:01 AM, Cherub786 said:

And what is your answer to 17:60 which describes the Isra and Mi’raj as a “Ru’yah” vision?

There are two types of visions

1.     Vision by eyes (ruya ayn) 2. Vision in dream (ruya manam)

In the tafseer of the verse 17:60  “said (Ibn Abbas) it was  the vision of  the eyes which was shown to the messenger of allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) with it in the night he was taken for night journey towards bait al-muqaddas .” . Sahih al Bukhari Hadith no:3888,6613,4716

قَالَ هِيَ رُؤْيَا عَيْنٍ، أُرِيَهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لَيْلَةَ أُسْرِيَ بِهِ إِلَى بَيْتِ الْمَقْدِسِ‏.

so according to your tafseer it was vision by eyes(not dream)

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