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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ali2196

Imams of ahlul bayt alive and can hear.

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4 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

At any rate, I believe the deceased can not hear anything from this world.

Can the spirit hear yes. Your spirit is separated from the body once you die but it’s lying next to the body. So they can hear the footsteps. Many videos have been given to you yet your not giving them a look. It shows that you are here to win. 

now who is the imam of fatimah if she died angry with Abu baker? (Giving you this question since you want to win) 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

If you invoke them, they do not hear your supplication; and if they heard, they would not respond to you.

(Surah 35:14)

Surah Al-Zukhruf 43:86

Those whom they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE WITNESS TO THE TRUTH and who know [for whom to intercede].

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Just now, THREE1THREE said:

Can the spirit hear yes. Your spirit is separated from the body once you die but it’s lying next to the body. So they can hear the footsteps. Many videos have been given to you yet your not giving them a look. It shows that you are here to win. 

What happens to the Spirit/Soul when you die? It doesn't lie next to the body, it is taken up to another realm.

Let me ask you something, when you fall asleep, can you hear or are you aware of what is happening around your physical body?

Well, sleep is the twin sister of death, the only difference is in sleep your soul returns to the body and you reawaken, but in death, your soul is permanently cut off from your body. To believe you can hear things happening around your corpse or your grave after you die is utter rubbish.

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4 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

now who is the imam of fatimah if she died angry with Abu baker? (Giving you this question since you want to win) 

Totally off topic

Quote

Those whom they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE WITNESS TO THE TRUTH and who know [for whom to intercede].

Again, this is off topic. We are discussing the mas'alah of Sima al-Mawta (whether the deceased can hear or not). How did you suddenly flip that to intercession?

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18 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Again, the Quran is quite clear the deceased are unable to hear.

Surah Fatir, Verse 22:
وَمَا يَسْتَوِي الْأَحْيَاءُ وَلَا الْأَمْوَاتُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُسْمِعُ مَن يَشَاءُ وَمَا أَنتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَّن فِي الْقُبُورِ

Neither are the living and the dead alike. Surely Allah makes whom He pleases hear, and you cannot make those hear who are in the graves.
(English - Shakir)

21 hours ago, Mariam17 said:

Do not suppose those who were slain in the way of Allah
to be dead;
rather they are living
and provided for near their Lord, exulting

in what Allah has given them out of His grace, and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them
from [those left] behind them that they will have no fear,
nor will they grieve. They rejoice in Allah’s blessing and grace,
and that Allah does not waste the reward of the faithful.”

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 154:
وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَن يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تَشْعُرُونَ

And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

 

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54 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

We are discussing the mas'alah of Sima al-Mawta (whether the deceased can hear or not). How did you suddenly flip that to intercession?

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

and if they heard, they would not respond to you.

(Surah 35:14)



 

 

58 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

What happens to the Spirit/Soul when you die? It doesn't lie next to the body, it is taken up to another realm.

Their is a veil between us and them before they head over to a completely different realm. The deceased person can see his body when he first dies before he enters the punishment of the grave. Plus the Quran is clear those who die in the way of Allah are not dead. 

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9 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Their is a veil between us and them before they head over to a completely different realm. The deceased person can see his body when he first dies before he enters the punishment of the grave. Plus the Quran is clear those who die in the way of Allah are not dead. 

The difference between you and I is that you say there is a phase in which the soul of the departed can see his body, and then the soul is taken to a different realm, but I believe that death itself means the Angel of Death extracts the soul from the body and at that very moment takes it to another realm. Therefore, there is no such intermediate phase between death and the taking up the soul as you have described. I invite you first to substantiate you claim of such an intermediate phase, I can easily prove my belief if you wish.

Next you have written that those who die are not dead (LOL)

Let me repeat that:

"Those who die are not dead"

That doesn't even make sense. This is what we call مُهْمَل in Arabic

Edited by Cherub786

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15 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

but I believe that death itself means the Angel of Death extracts the soul from the body and at that very moment takes it to another realm.

That realm is where the veil between us and him, the deceased person can see his body and us via his spirit still hovering(best way to describe it) then after that(once the burial is done) he is taken to the realm of punishment of the grave were he is being purified(in that phase he can only hear us)  once the body and spirit is purified (assuming his a good bloke) he then goes to the realm of barzakh where he experiences the good stuff in it which is paradise like. 

Now the person ,according to our traditions, can leave the realm of barzakh and enter a another realm where he is waiting upon his grave for visitors to come.  

18 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

That doesn't even make sense. This is what we call مُهْمَل in Arabic

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 154:
وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَن يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تَشْعُرُونَ

And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

 

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6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Punishment of the Grave, here grave does not mean the burial plot where the corpse is placed, it refers to another dimension different from our time and space where the soul is placed, and depending on its condition, either punished or experiences delights. So here Qabr refers to Alam al-Barzakh and not the literal burial plot. This is a matter of mushahidah that the burial plots contain nothing but bones and dust.

Bring the proof from the quran and  your hadith  books to support your view

 Word “Qabr” (grave) and “Barzakh” (barrier) are not synonyms.

 Barzakh means barrier it is the time period between the death and day of resurrection.

 Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back.23:99

In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected. No. It is but a word that he speaks. and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised.23:100

 Death is nothing else but separation of the soul from the body. So immediately after separation soul speaks that send me back.

 The soul speaks here without lungs, throat, tongue and lips.

 Qabr is the place of resting after the death till the day of resurrection.

 From the (earth) did We create you, and into it shall We return you, and from it shall We bring you out once again.20:55

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8 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

To believe you can hear things happening around your corpse or your grave after you die is utter rubbish.

Again coming to the conclusion without even looking at the verses of Quran. What looks "utter rubbish" to you is here:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 77:
فَعَقَرُوا النَّاقَةَ وَعَتَوْا عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِمْ وَقَالُوا يَا صَالِحُ ائْتِنَا بِمَا تَعِدُنَا إِن كُنتَ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

So they slew the she-camel and revolted against their Lord's commandment, and they said: O Salih! bring us what you threatened us with, if you are one of the apostles.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 78:
فَأَخَذَتْهُمُ الرَّجْفَةُ فَأَصْبَحُوا فِي دَارِهِمْ جَاثِمِينَ

Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 79:
فَتَوَلَّىٰ عَنْهُمْ وَقَالَ يَا قَوْمِ لَقَدْ أَبْلَغْتُكُمْ رِسَالَةَ رَبِّي وَنَصَحْتُ لَكُمْ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تُحِبُّونَ النَّاصِحِينَ

Then he turned away from them and said: O my people I did certainly deliver to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice, but you do not love those who give good advice.
(English - Shakir)

The "Mukhatab" of Prophet Saleh (عليه السلام) were the souls of those who died in that punishment. But ohhh, You might say the Prophet Saleh was unaware that deceased ones cannot hear.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Again coming to the conclusion without even looking at the verses of Quran. What looks "utter rubbish" to you is here:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 77:
فَعَقَرُوا النَّاقَةَ وَعَتَوْا عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِمْ وَقَالُوا يَا صَالِحُ ائْتِنَا بِمَا تَعِدُنَا إِن كُنتَ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

So they slew the she-camel and revolted against their Lord's commandment, and they said: O Salih! bring us what you threatened us with, if you are one of the apostles.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 78:
فَأَخَذَتْهُمُ الرَّجْفَةُ فَأَصْبَحُوا فِي دَارِهِمْ جَاثِمِينَ

Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 79:
فَتَوَلَّىٰ عَنْهُمْ وَقَالَ يَا قَوْمِ لَقَدْ أَبْلَغْتُكُمْ رِسَالَةَ رَبِّي وَنَصَحْتُ لَكُمْ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تُحِبُّونَ النَّاصِحِينَ

Then he turned away from them and said: O my people I did certainly deliver to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice, but you do not love those who give good advice.
(English - Shakir)

The "Mukhatab" of Prophet Saleh (عليه السلام) were the souls of those who died in that punishment. But ohhh, You might say the Prophet Saleh was unaware that deceased ones cannot hear.

Addressing someone with words does not necessarily mean they are present or can hear you. For example, we often recite the following Surah in our prayers:

قُلْ يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلْكَـٰفِرُونَ

Say "O Disbelievers"

And it is evident that while we are addressing them directly, they cannot hear us, nor are they present. There are also many instances in Arabic literature and poetry (as well as the literature and poetry of most other languages) where Nida is used but it is known that the mukhatab is neither present nor able to hear.

Having said that, many of the Tafasir for the Ayah you have quoted explain that verses 78 and 79 are not describing a chronological sequence, meaning, Saleh عليه السلام was addressing them before the punishment seized them, as is indicated by the words "then he turned away from them":

يقول تعالـى ذكره: فأدبر صالـح عنهم حين استعجلوه العذاب وعقروا ناقة الله خارجاً عن أرضهم من بـين أظهرهم 

(Tafsir Ibn Jarir 7:79)

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34 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Addressing someone with words does not necessarily mean they are present or can hear you.

 

34 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

many of the Tafasir for the Ayah you have quoted explain that verses 78 and 79 are not describing a chronological sequence,

The alphabet of فا in the word of فتولى which denotes an order. i.e. after their destruction, he turned towards them and spoke in such words.

But let me give you another example:

Surah Az-Zukhruf, Verse 45:
وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رُّسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِن دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ

And ask those of Our apostles whom We sent before you: Did We ever appoint gods to be worshipped besides the Beneficent Allah?
(English - Shakir)

Now you would better remind God what He is advising to His Apostle here. How can Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) speak to the dead? Or/And how can he establish communication with the souls of Prophets? 

Checkmate again!!

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

The alphabet of فا in the word of فتولى which denotes an order.

Incorrect. The particle ف is a connective particle but it does not necessarily denote an order of chronological sequence (and there are too many examples of this in the Quran itself which you should be aware of)

Quote

But let me give you another example:

Surah Az-Zukhruf, Verse 45:
وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رُّسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِن دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ

And ask those of Our apostles whom We sent before you: Did We ever appoint gods to be worshipped besides the Beneficent Allah?
(English - Shakir)

Now you would better remind God what He is advising to His Apostle here. How can Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) speak to the dead? Or/And how can he establish communication with the souls of Prophets? 

Checkmate again!!

Imam Jalal ud-Din as-Suyuti رحمة الله عليه has answered your argument in Tafsir al-Jalalayn:

{ وَسْئلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رُّسُلِنَآ أَجَعَلْنَا مِن دُونِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ } أي غيره { ءَالِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ } قيل هو على ظاهره بأن جمع له الرسل ليلة الإِسراء، وقيل المراد: أمم مِن أيِّ أهل الكتابين، ولم يسأل على واحد من القولين لأنّ المراد من الأمر بالسؤال التقرير لمشركي قريش أنه لم يأت رسول من الله ولا كتاب بعبادة غير الله.

And ask those of Our messengers whom We sent before you Did We ever appoint besides the Compassionate One that is to say any other than Him gods to be worshipped? It is said that this is to be understood literally in other words that God gathered for him all the messengers on the Night of the Journey; but it is also said that this meant that he should ask any communities belonging to either of the two Peoples of the Scripture. According to one of the two opinions he never asked anyone since the point of this command to ask is to affirm to the idolaters of Quraysh that no messenger or scripture ever came from God with the command to worship any other than God.

And if you argue that this is a Sunni tafsir, then let me quote a Twelver Shi'i tafsir for you:

{ واسئل من أرسلنا من قبلك من رسلنا } معناه سل مؤمني أهل الكتاب الذين أرسلنا إليهم الرسل هل جاءتهم الرسل إلا بالتوحيد وهو قول أكثر المفسّرين

So at-Tabarsi in Majma al-Bayan has explained that the meaning of this Ayah is to ask the people of the Book to whom the Apostles were sent whether the apostles came to them with anything except Tawhid, and this is the statement of the majority of exegetes

It seems all your checkmates are nothing but false alarms!

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6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Incorrect. The particle ف is a connective particle but it does not necessarily denote an order of chronological sequence

Who is going to decide that it is or it is not denoting an order? So I am giving you reference of an Arabic Corpus:

Quote

Verse (7:79), Word 1 - Quranic Grammar

The first word of verse (7:79) is divided into 2 morphological segments. A resumption particle and verb. The connective particle fa is usually translated as "then" or "so" and is used to indicate a sequence of events. The form V perfect verb (فعل ماض) is third person masculine singular. 

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(7:79:1)

 

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

And if you argue that this is a Sunni tafsir, then let me quote a Twelver Shi'i tafsir for you:

You don't need to tell me anything about shi'i tafseer specially. I know that very well. If you believe that this verse is connected to the event of "Isra", you will be in a trouble again because I guess your ideology about "Isra" is that it is not physical.

The second option "ask from the people of book" doesn't make any sense while the verse itself is commanding to "ask those of our Apostles". We have many ahadith mentioning that this verse is related to the event of "Isra" where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did asked this question from previous Prophets.

Now, you perhaps would insist that ف does not necessary denote an order in that verse specifically because there are examples in Quran where it does denote an order and I can prove you that from those specific verses where you will agree that ف is indicating an order.  

At the moment, I am just presenting before you another case similar to the case of Prophet Saleh (عليه السلام):

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 90:
وَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ لَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتُمْ شُعَيْبًا إِنَّكُمْ إِذًا لَّخَاسِرُونَ

And the chiefs of those who disbelieved from among his people said: If you follow Shu'aib, you shall then most surely be losers
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 91:
فَأَخَذَتْهُمُ الرَّجْفَةُ فَأَصْبَحُوا فِي دَارِهِمْ جَاثِمِينَ

Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 92:
الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا شُعَيْبًا كَأَن لَّمْ يَغْنَوْا فِيهَا الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا شُعَيْبًا كَانُوا هُمُ الْخَاسِرِينَ

Those who called Shu'aib a liar were as though they had never dwelt therein; those who called Shu'aib a liar, they were the losers.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 93:
فَتَوَلَّىٰ عَنْهُمْ وَقَالَ يَا قَوْمِ لَقَدْ أَبْلَغْتُكُمْ رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّي وَنَصَحْتُ لَكُمْ فَكَيْفَ آسَىٰ عَلَىٰ قَوْمٍ كَافِرِينَ

So he turned away from them and said: O my people! certainly I delivered to you the messages of my Lord and I gave you good advice; how shall I then be sorry for an unbelieving people?
(English - Shakir)

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

It seems all your checkmates are nothing but false alarms!

:) It seems to me you are struggling to get rid of those alarms!! So checkmate is still in place.

 

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45 minutes ago, Cool said:

Who is going to decide that it is or it is not denoting an order?

The content of the Verse itself implies that Nabi Saleh عليه السلام was addressing them before the divine wrath overtook them. Furthermore, the Exegete al-Qurtubi has explained convincingly this point:

{ فَتَوَلَّىٰ عَنْهُمْ } أي عند اليأس منهم. { وَقَالَ يَاقَوْمِ لَقَدْ أَبْلَغْتُكُمْ رِسَالَةَ رَبِّي وَنَصَحْتُ لَكُمْ } يحتمل أنه قال ذلك قبل موتهم. ويحتمل أنه قاله بعد موتهم ك " قوله عليه السلام لِقَتْلَى بَدْر: «هل وجدتم ما وعد ربكم حقاً» فقيل: أتكلم هؤلاء الجِيَف؟ فقال: «ما أنتم بأسمَع منهم ولكنهم لا يقدرون على الجواب» " والأوّل أظهر. يدل عليه { وَلَكِن لاَّ تُحِبُّونَ ٱلنَّاصِحِينَ } أي لم تقبلوا نُصْحِي

To paraphrase, he wrote that this statement of Nabi Saleh عليه السلام was said before their deaths, but he also mentioned the other opinion that he addressed them with these words after their destruction. But then he says the first position is the correct one, using as evidence the content of the statement "but you do not love the Advisers" meaning you do not accept my advice. This is a plain indication that Nabi Saleh عليه السلام was addressing them while they were alive.

Therefore, in order to reconcile the content of the Ayah with the particle ف, it has to be accepted that ف is not for denoting chronological order.

Again, even if I accept, for the sake of argument, that Nabi Saleh عليه السلام addressed them after their deaths, as I already explained, addressing the deceased does not prove the deceased can actually hear that address, because there are examples in the Quran and in literature in general where the deceased or the absent are addressed and it is understood that they cannot hear. This is especially true in the genre of lamentation, and the statement of Nabi Saleh عليه السلام is a classic example of a lamentation.

Quote

The connective particle fa is usually translated as "then" or "so" and is used to indicate a sequence of events.

The key word is "usually", indicating that this is not always the case

Quote

You don't need to tell me anything about shi'i tafseer specially. I know that very well. If you believe that this verse is connected to the event of "Isra", you will be in a trouble again because I guess your ideology about "Isra" is that it is not physical.

I did not say that the Verse is connected to the event of Isra, but I mentioned it as one of the opinions of the Exegetes, including your Twelver Shi'ah exegetes. Another opinion (held by both Sunni and Shi'ah exegetes) is that the people of the Book who are attributed to the Apostles sent to them are meant to be asked and not the Apostles directly.

The event of Isra wal-Mi'raj being physical or spiritual makes no difference to this discussion, it is immaterial (no pun intended)

It is not required for the Isra wal-Mi'raj to be physical in order for the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to ask this question and speak to the ancient Apostles who preceded him.

Quote

The second option "ask from the people of book" doesn't make any sense while the verse itself is commanding to "ask those of our Apostles".

If it doesn't make sense then why did Tabarsi say it? Are you greater than Tabarsi? Should I take his view as representing your madhhab, or you, a random, anonymous person on the internet?

Quote

We have many ahadith mentioning that this verse is related to the event of "Isra" where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did asked this question from previous Prophets.

That is fine. I acknowledge it as a valid interpretation. The point is, we are discussing whether or not the deceased are able to hear us in this world. The proof you are presenting does not relate to this world, but to the event of the Isra and Mi'raj, which did not occur in this realm. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم met the various Prophets during his Mi'raj, his ascension into the Heavens. He spoke to them there. They heard him there. They did not hear him from this world.

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I respect cherubs opinions and interpretation but are there any other Sunni brothers/sister that are willing to show there views? I’m sure mufti menk has millions of followers. where are they why arnt any of them commenting? I want to see cherub vs a mufti menk follower ahah

Edited by Ali2196

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24 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Therefore, in order to reconcile the content of the Ayah with the particle ف, it has to be accepted that ف is not for denoting chronological order.

:hahaha:

Why it has to be accepted? While the statement you quoted contain another evidence:

27 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

ويحتمل أنه قاله بعد موتهم ك " قوله عليه السلام لِقَتْلَى بَدْر: «هل وجدتم ما وعد ربكم حقاً» » "

And while your sheikh himself is giving you two possible interpretations. 

31 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

But then he says the first position is the correct one

There is no problem in second position either specially when "fa" is there which denotes order. So should I quote verses containing "fa" denoting the order? I think you know that.

36 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

as I already explained, addressing the deceased does not prove the deceased can actually hear that address, because there are examples in the Quran and in literature in general where the deceased or the absent are addressed and it is understood that they cannot hear. This is especially true in the genre of lamentation, and the statement of Nabi Saleh عليه السلام is a classic example of a lamentation.

So the salutations given in Quran for various Prophets are mere words which gone unheard? 

The Holy Qur’an says:

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ نُوحٍ فِي الْعَالَمِينَ

1. Peace be upon Nuh, in the Universe.  (37:79)

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ

2. Peace be upon Ibrahim. (37:109)

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ وَهَارُونَ

3. Peace be upon Musa and Harun. (37:120)

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ إِلْ يَاسِينَ

4. Peace be upon Aal Yasin. (37:130)

سَلَامٌ عَلَى الْمُرْسَلِينَ

5. Peace be upon the Messengers. (37:181)

42 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The key word is "usually", indicating that this is not always the case

lol, the key word is not how it is translated "usually", key words are how it is used.and that part was underlined:

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Verse (7:79), Word 1 - Quranic Grammar

The first word of verse (7:79) is divided into 2 morphological segments. A resumption particle and verb. The connective particle fa is usually translated as "then" or "so" and is used to indicate a sequence of events. The form V perfect verb (فعل ماض) is third person masculine singular. 

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(7:79:1)

 

45 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

it doesn't make sense then why did Tabarsi say it? Are you greater than Tabarsi?

:) Imams are greater than him as I told you that we have ahadith with us.

47 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The event of Isra wal-Mi'raj being physical or spiritual makes no difference to this discussion, it is immaterial (no pun intended)

As long as you don't believe it physical, it would make no difference. So I suggest this is another point which must be discussed, in a new thread. So at the moment you're trapped in "fa" and you're not getting rid of it :D. And the sslutation mentioned in Quran, which you believe cannot reach to Apostles. 

Checkmate is still in place.

 

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On 8/15/2020 at 1:16 AM, Cherub786 said:

That is precisely my position. What are we arguing about?

As I clarified in my previous post, I never actually said it is a spiritual realm. Whether Paradise is a spiritual realm or a physical realm, I never commented on that. What I did say is that the life of the martyr is a spiritual life, meaning his Spirit is present in Paradise, not his earthly, corporal body. The earthly, corporal body is buried in a grave in this dunya, after which it decomposes and nothing is left of it except dust and bones.

The life of the Prophets and martyrs is ruhani, barzakhi, jannati, ukhrawi

it is not jismani, dunyawi or hissi

That is all I am saying.

 Having acknowledged you do not know in which realm Barzakh Paradise exists, Physical or Spiritual , then how do you even determine martyrs is Ruhani a spiritual life? 

Moreover, you have been asserting >The earthly, corporal body is buried in a grave in this dunya, after which it decomposes and nothing is left of it except dust and bones< Although I accept this view of decomposition of the body becoming dust over a period of time, but reject the notion that a the dead cannot be given another vessel (Body) to inhabit, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) addresses this in verse 36:78

And applies comparisons to Us, having forgotten his origin, and says: "Who can put life into decayed bones?" [36:78] 

Also in the verses that are being discussed, it is clearly mentioned that martyrs are alive after death  it cannot be interpreted as immortality of their name and cause, although life after death is different from the life of the world. If we accept life after death for the martyrs, we would have to accept life for all the other people as well.  But the difference of martyrs to other people is that the martyrs are sustained by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in a elevated stage specifically for the Shaheeds  they will  receive sustenance from the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

It must be said: All the people are also alive after death and they are transferred to a realm called Barzakh and they continue their life there. few narration from Imam Ja'far (عليه السلام)

Abu Walad says: I asked Imam Ja’far Sadiq (as): “May I be your ransom, it is narrated that after death the souls of the believers will be placed in the gizzard of green coloured birds. And they will circulate around the throne of Almighty.” 

He replied:

“No, it is not so. The believer is more exalted that his soul should be placed in the gizzard of fowls. On the contrary, the souls of believers will be in bodies like the bodies of this world.

Yunus says: I was with Imam Ja’far Sadiq (عليه السلام) when he asked:

“What do people say about the souls of believers?”

I said: “They say that they would be placed in crops of green birds, in the lanterns hanging below the Arsh.”

He said:

Glory be to Allah! A believer is more respectable than that his soul should be placed in crop of birds. O Yunus, when the death of a believer approaches, the Holy Prophet (S), Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain (عليه السلام) and the proximate angels of the Almighty Allah appear to him and when the Almighty Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) captures his soul, He places it in a body, which is like the worldly body. Thus he eats and drinks. When the fresh soul enters it, they recognise him in the same form as he was having in the world.

Abu Basir has narrated from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (عليه السلام) that he said:

“Souls of believers live in form of bodies between the trees of Paradise. They introduce and speak to each other. When a new soul enters, they remark to each other: Leave him/her; he just escaped a great terror. After that they ask him: How is so-and-so person? If he replies: He is alive. They hope for his salvation and if he says that he is dead, they say: He has gone into perdition.

Though you will reject the narration, which is fine, then you are required to establish you view point from the Quran, that the Ruh is Ruhani and not Jismani?

 

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6 hours ago, power said:

 Having acknowledged you do not know in which realm Barzakh Paradise exists, Physical or Spiritual , then how do you even determine martyrs is Ruhani a spiritual life? 

you are required to establish you view point from the Quran, that the Ruh is Ruhani and not Jismani?

This division between physical and spiritual realm is speculative. We simply do not know the full reality of the Afterlife and Paradise. I am not commenting on the nature of the realm in which the souls of the Martyrs are taken, but I am commenting on the fact that the souls of the martyrs are not alive with their earthly, corporal bodies, they are not alive in our world.

You asked a very strange question which is to prove that the Ruh is Ruhani and not Jismani. The word Ruhani is derived from Ruh, therefore, a life of the Ruh without a Jism is necessarily a purely Ruhani life.

Having said that, we believe that the spirits of the martyrs are alive in Paradise, and that they are carried in the bellies of green birds. Note, this does not mean the Spirit of the Martyrs is incarnated into the body of a green bird, it means their spirits are carried in the belly of a green bird which acts as a vehicle or vessel, similar to how we may sit inside and travel inside a vehicle (car, ship, plane, train, etc.)

As for the affairs of the grave, I believe the world of barzakh is a parallel grave where the spirit of the deceased is given a parallel body, not the earthly corporal body of this world which evidently decays and decomposes into nothing but bones and dust. The soul is granted a parallel body in the Barzakh through which it is either punished or experience of delight.

So I return to my original point which is that the Martyrs are unable to hear us, because they no longer exist in our dimension. It is futile to call upon them or speak to the deceased, for they cannot hear anything whatsoever from our world

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On 8/15/2020 at 2:36 PM, Cherub786 said:

Acting like a Trinitarian? What are you talking about?

It doesn't matter who is in your favor, the whole world can be in your favor. The fact remains the deceased cannot hear, end of story.

إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا۟ دُعَآءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا۟ مَا ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟ لَكُمْ

If you invoke them, they do not hear your supplication; and if they heard, they would not respond to you.

(Surah 35:14)

This is what I found in Tafsir Quran by Ibn Kathir, on the verse quoted above.

 

The gods of the Idolators do not even own a Qitmir.

If you invoke them, they hear not your call; means, `the gods upon whom you call instead of Allah, do not hear your supplication, because they are inanimate and have no soul in them.'

and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it to you.

means, `they are not able to do any of the things that you ask them for.'

 

And now you are conjecturing, the dead can't hear?

 

 

Edited by justAnothermuslim

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52 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Why do you send Salam to the Prophet in Salah?

The Angels convey our greetings and prayers of peace and blessings upon the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. Angels have the capability to move between the realms, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم cannot hear us directly. Nor is he present in his grave in Madinat al-Munawwarah, he has departed this world and no longer has any connection to it.

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Salams, 

The Hadith where the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) addressed the dead of disbelievers in the battle of Badr three days after their death: "When he halted at the edge of the well, he addressed the corpses of the Quraish infidels by their names and their fathers' names, "O so-and-so, son of so-and-so and O so-and-so, son of so-and-so! Would it have pleased you if you had obeyed Allah and His Apostle? We have found true what our Lord promised us. Have you too found true what your Lord promised you? " 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You are speaking to bodies that have no souls!" Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, you do not hear, what I say better than they do" .
Ibn Taymiyah was asked whether the dead person hears his visitor. He replied: "Yes, globally" and he mentioned the above evidence.
The Hadith reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim that "The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) told Muslims to greet the dwellers of graves and he said: 'Say: peace be upon you all, O inhabitants of the graves, among the believers and the Muslims. Verily we will, Allah willing, be united with you'" .

Any thoughts?

Edited by ShiaofAli12

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9 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The Angels convey our greetings and prayers of peace and blessings upon the Prophet

So, technically he does still hear us. The angels are conveying messages to him :) 

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Just now, Mohammad313Ali said:

So, technically he does still hear us. The angels are conveying messages to him :) 

No. In this world, we also convey salam to each other through mediums. So if I met you, and when you were leaving I said to you "convey my salam to your father". Then you went home and met your father, and told him "Cherub sends salam upon you". Now did you father hear me? No. Your father didn't hear my voice. Your father was only informed that I sent salam upon him via yourself, you acted as the medium conveying my salam to him. In the same way, the Angels convey our Salat and Salam upon the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

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Just now, Cherub786 said:

No. In this world, we also convey salam to each other through mediums. So if I met you, and when you were leaving I said to you "convey my salam to your father". Then you went home and met your father, and told him "Cherub sends salam upon you". Now did you father hear me? No. Your father didn't hear my voice. Your father was only informed that I sent salam upon him via yourself, you acted as the medium conveying my salam to him. In the same way, the Angels convey our Salat and Salam upon the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

Yes, the Prophet (S) hears our messages that are conveyed by angels. The way in which he receives them, or if he hears us directly like someone would face to face is arbitrary, as long as he receives my message that is enough. 

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7 minutes ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Salams, 

The Hadith where the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) addressed the dead of disbelievers in the battle of Badr three days after their death: "When he halted at the edge of the well, he addressed the corpses of the Quraish infidels by their names and their fathers' names, "O so-and-so, son of so-and-so and O so-and-so, son of so-and-so! Would it have pleased you if you had obeyed Allah and His Apostle? We have found true what our Lord promised us. Have you too found true what your Lord promised you? " 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You are speaking to bodies that have no souls!" Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, you do not hear, what I say better than they do" .
Ibn Taymiyah was asked whether the dead person hears his visitor. He replied: "Yes, globally" and he mentioned the above evidence.
The Hadith reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim that "The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) told Muslims to greet the dwellers of graves and he said: 'Say: peace be upon you all, O inhabitants of the graves, among the believers and the Muslims. Verily we will, Allah willing, be united with you'" .

Any thoughts?

Ibn Taymiyah was wrong in this mas'alah. If you understand the Urdu language, I encourage you to listen to an entire series of lectures on this subject of Sima al-Mawta by Maulana Yunus Numani رحمة الله عليه

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRhvWGN7muw

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3 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Yes, the Prophet (S) hears our messages that are conveyed by angels. The way in which he receives them, or if he hears us directly like someone would face to face is arbitrary, as long as he receives my message that is enough. 

Again, we are not disputing if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم receives the greeting, we are disputing whether he hears it, meaning does he hear our voice conveying Salam to him? The answer is no. Allah clearly says in the Holy Quran "You cannot make the deceased hear"

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

Again, we are not disputing if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم receives the greeting, we are disputing whether he hears it, meaning does he hear our voice conveying Salam to him? The answer is no. Allah clearly says in the Holy Quran "You cannot make the deceased hear"

Not all Shias believe that the Prophet or Ahlulbayt can literally hear you as you speak, however, there are ways in which a person can supplicate a Dua and through that Dua send a Salam to an Imam or to the Prophet in which the angels would convey it to them. Likewise when we visit our deceased family members we pray for them and ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to convey our Salam to them, I believe that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is aware of every word I say and think. 

 

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Just now, Mohammad313Ali said:

Not all Shias believe that the Prophet or Ahlulbayt can literally hear you

Okay, so what is your own position on this issue?

If you agree with me in essence and principle, then well and good.

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2 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Okay, so what is your own position on this issue?

If you agree with me in essence and principle, then well and good.

I don’t go against the Quran and Ahlulbayt when it comes to my position on issues. However, I also implement the intellect and the historical significance of an event to reach a complete and fortified conclusion - if any position goes against the Quran it is instantly null. 

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On 8/17/2020 at 10:29 PM, justAnothermuslim said:

And now you are conjecturing, the dead can't hear?

إِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلْمَوْتَىٰ وَلَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلصُّمَّ ٱلدُّعَآءَ إِذَا وَلَّوْا۟ مُدْبِرِينَ

فَإِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلْمَوْتَىٰ وَلَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلصُّمَّ ٱلدُّعَآءَ إِذَا وَلَّوْا۟ مُدْبِرِينَ

وَمَآ أَنتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَّن فِى ٱلْقُبُورِ

وَمَنْ أَضَلُّ مِمَّن يَدْعُوا۟ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّـهِ مَن لَّا يَسْتَجِيبُ لَهُۥٓ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ ٱلْقِيَـٰمَةِ وَهُمْ عَن دُعَآئِهِمْ غَـٰفِلُونَ

إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا۟ دُعَآءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا۟ مَا ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟ لَكُمْ ۖ وَيَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَـٰمَةِ يَكْفُرُونَ بِشِرْكِكُمْ

5 Ayaat from Holy Quran which make it clear the deceased cannot hear

Edited by Cherub786

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Ali Bin Ibrahim, from Muhammad Bin Isa Bin Ubeyd who said, ‘It was so that I and Ibn Fazzal were
seated when Yunus came over and he said,
‘I went over to Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (عليه السلام) and I said to him, ‘May I be sacrificed
for you! The people are frequently (speaking) regarding the pillar (of light)’. So
he (عليه السلام) said to me: ‘O Yunus! What do you see it as? Do you see it as a pillar of iron
raised for your companions?’ I said, ‘I do not know’. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘But, it is an Angel
allocated with every city. Allah Raises the deeds of that city with him’.

Majlisi said Sahih Mirat Ul Uqool v4 page 268

But one might say this hadith isn't clear. Ok.

Chapter 29 – The deeds are presented to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Imams  (See how Allamah Kulayni named this chapter. it might kill some Salafized shias among us LOL)

Al-Kafi volume 1 THE BOOK OF DIVINE AUTHORITY (Part-2) page 37 out of 48

Hadith#3
Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Usman Bin Isa, from Sama’at,
(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام), said, ‘I heard him saying: ‘What is
the matter with you all, upsetting Rasool-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?’ So the man said, ‘How are we
upsetting him?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘But, are you not knowing that your deeds are
presented to him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
? So when he sees your deeds wherein is disobedience,
that upsets him. So do not upset Rasool-Allah and (instead) cheer him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
up’

Majlisi said Hasan Muawthaq Mirat Ul Uqool volume 3 page 5

Hadith#6

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al Washha who said,
‘I heard Al-Rezaasws saying: ‘The deeds get presented to Rasool-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), its
righteous ones and its immoral ones.

Majlisi said Sahih Mirat Ul Uqool volume 3 page 6

Now one might say, where does this hadith say Deeds are raised to Imams (عليه السلام)?

Hadith#1
Ali Bin Muhammad and Muhammad Bin Al Hassan, from Sahl Bin Ziyad, from Muhammad Bin Al
Hassan Bin Shamoun, from Abdullah Bin Abdul Rahman, from Abdullah Bin Al Qasim, from Sama’at,
(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws having said: ‘For Allahazwj Blessed and
High there are two (types of) Knowledges – a Knowledge Heazwj Manifested upon the
Angels and Hisazwj Prophetsas and Hisazwj Rasoolsas. So whatever was Manifested
upon Hisazwj Angels, and Hisazwj Rasoolsas, and Hisazwj Prophetsas, weasws know it;
and a Knowledge Heazwj is exclusive with it. So whenever Allahazwj begins regarding
something from it, Heazwj Teaches usasws that and it is displayed upon the Imamsasws
who were before us.

Chain:2 Ali Bin Muhammad and Muhammad Bin Al Hassan, from Sahl Bin Ziyad, from Musa Bin Al Qasim and
Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Al Amraky Bin Ali, altogether

Sahih By Second Chain Majlisi Mirat Ul Uqool volume v3 p108

Hadith#4

Abu Ali Al Ashary, from Muhammad Bin Abdul Jabbar, from Muhammad Bin Ismail, from Ali Bin Al
Nu’man, from Suweyd Al Qalla’a, from Abu Ayoub, from Abu Baseer,
(It has been narrated) from Abu Ja’farasws having said: ‘For Allahazwj Mighty and
Majestic there are two (types of) Knowledges – a Knowledge which no one knows
except Himazwj, and a Knowledge which Heazwj Taught Hisazwj Angels, and Hisazwj
Rasool. So whatever Heazwj Taught Hisazwj Angels and Hisazwj Rasools, so weasws
know it

Sahih Majlisi Mirat Ul Uqool v3 page 109 

Imam said they know everything what that was revealed by Allah to his angels and Prophets (عليه السلام). Thus if deeds are presented to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), deeds should also be presented to AIma in order for verification of words of AIma (عليه السلام).

Knowledge of Imams (عليه السلام). They know what is in the skies and what is on the earth:

Chapter name: The Imamsasws know the knowledge of whatever has
happened, and whatever will be happening, and it is so that nothing
is hidden from themasws, may the Salawat of Allahazwj be upon
them 
 (May Allah bless Allamah Kulayni, what a superb name for the chapter :hahaha:)

‘I heard Abu Ja’far asws saying, and in his asws presence were people from his asws
companions: ‘I asws am astounded from a group of people who are befriending us asws
and making us asws to be their Imams asws, and are describing that obedience to us asws
is a necessity upon them just like the obedience to Rasool-Allah saww, then they are
breaking their own arguments and are debating against themselves due to their
weak hearts, so they are being deficient in ourasws rights, and they are (then) faulting
that upon the ones whom Allah azwj has Granted the substantiation of the right of
our asws recognition, and the submission to our asws orders.

Are you viewing that Allah azwj Blessed and High would Necessitate the obedience to
His azwj Guardians asws upon Hisazwj servants, then He azwj would Hide the news of the
skies and the earth
and cut-off the Mine of the Knowledge from themasws, regarding
what is referred to themasws from what wherein is the straightness of their Religion?

Majlisi said Sahih Mirat Ul Uqool volume 3 page 131

 

And i think asking for madad, ect all is from among deeds of people. and Angels raise everything to Aima (عليه السلام).

Now, we will discuss whether Imams can hear us or not directly in some other thread!

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

إِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلْمَوْتَىٰ وَلَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلصُّمَّ ٱلدُّعَآءَ إِذَا وَلَّوْا۟ مُدْبِرِينَ

فَإِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلْمَوْتَىٰ وَلَا تُسْمِعُ ٱلصُّمَّ ٱلدُّعَآءَ إِذَا وَلَّوْا۟ مُدْبِرِينَ

وَمَآ أَنتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَّن فِى ٱلْقُبُورِ

وَمَنْ أَضَلُّ مِمَّن يَدْعُوا۟ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّـهِ مَن لَّا يَسْتَجِيبُ لَهُۥٓ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ ٱلْقِيَـٰمَةِ وَهُمْ عَن دُعَآئِهِمْ غَـٰفِلُونَ

إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا۟ دُعَآءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا۟ مَا ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟ لَكُمْ ۖ وَيَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَـٰمَةِ يَكْفُرُونَ بِشِرْكِكُمْ

5 Ayaat from Holy Quran which make it clear the deceased cannot hear

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has always kept a huge difference between Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Aima (عليه السلام) and other people.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) truly demonstrates everywhere that he is above all and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is dependent of Allah in each and every sense but that doesn't negate the authority, merits and virtues Allah has given to him.

Quran 30:50

 So observe the effects of the mercy of Allah - how He gives life to the earth after its lifelessness. Indeed, that [same one] will give life to the dead, and He is over all things competent.

Can you use this verse to deny what Isa (عليه السلام) said regarding his authority to raise the dead and create in Quran? If thats so then you truly don't understand Quran.

Because Only Allah and Rasikhuna fil ilm knows the interpretation of Quran Kareem. So we refer to them. And all the authority given to Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn't contradicts these verses because it has been given by Allah, but they (عليه السلام) depend upon Allah for everything, when it comes to independent authority, Allah in Quran has said many things regarding that like i gave example of giving life after death but tha can't be used to deny Isa (عليه السلام) used to raise dead to life.

 

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Can you use this verse to deny what Isa (عليه السلام) said regarding his authority to raise the dead

The dead can never return to this world as per muhkam Ayaat of the Quran:

وَحَرَٰمٌ عَلَىٰ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَـٰهَآ أَنَّهُمْ لَا يَرْجِعُونَ

ٱللَّـهُ يَتَوَفَّى ٱلْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَٱلَّتِى لَمْ تَمُتْ فِى مَنَامِهَا ۖ فَيُمْسِكُ ٱلَّتِى قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا ٱلْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ ٱلْأُخْرَىٰٓ إِلَىٰٓ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى

حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا جَآءَ أَحَدَهُمُ ٱلْمَوْتُ قَالَ رَبِّ ٱرْجِعُونِ ﴿٩٩﴾ لَعَلِّىٓ أَعْمَلُ صَـٰلِحًا فِيمَا تَرَكْتُ ۚ كَلَّآ ۚ إِنَّهَا كَلِمَةٌ هُوَ قَآئِلُهَا ۖ وَمِن وَرَآئِهِم بَرْزَخٌ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ

It is impossible for anyone to come back from the dead into this world, once the decree of death has been made against them and the Angel of Death has fully extracted their soul

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