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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imams of ahlul bayt alive and can hear.

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Posted (edited)

If u really wanna know guys just watch this vid linked below of “Can the dead hear us?” by Sayid Ammar Nakshawani. 
 

Also remember (3:169-172):

“Do not suppose those who were slain in the way of Allah
to be dead;
rather they are living
and provided for near their Lord, exulting
in what Allah has given them out of His grace, and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them
from [those left] behind them that they will have no fear,
nor will they grieve. They rejoice in Allah’s blessing and grace,
and that Allah does not waste the reward of the faithful.”

 

What brother @Cherub786 quotes from the Quran is correct. However, this doesn’t contradict with our belief because those quotations are in references to the deaf blind and dumb and who will not be able to hear when they are dead. Not only that, these Ayah mentioned by the brother are also in reference to those “dead” spiritually in the real world and how they cannot hear us guiding them because they ignorant, again “deaf, blind and dumb”. Being deaf and blind when mentioned in the Quran is not always literal. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn’t hate disabled people. It is symbolic.

 

All the Imams were slain in the way of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so the ayah that I mentioned above applies.

 

Any who just watch the vid because the sayid addresses all this and it will be a time saver in the long run :) 

 

Edited by Mariam17
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@Cherub786 Rasool Allah [saww] addressing the Kuffar who were killed in the battle of Badr Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: “The Messenger of Allah spoke to the People (buried) in the Well saying: “Have

@Cherub786 so you’re just going to disagree with every comment and not reply to the sufficient evidences we provided. Kind of ironic how we’re talking about the “deaf, [and] blind”.

Obviously not. Obviously yes. Is this really a mainstream thing to do? I don’t think this is haram or shirk, but probably useless. It also doesn’t really make any sense for people who be

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Mariam17 said:

What brother @Cherub786 quotes from the Quran is correct. However, this doesn’t contradict with our belief because those quotations are in references to the deaf blind and dumb and who will not be able to hear when they are dead. Not only that, these Ayah mentioned by the brother are also in reference to those “dead” spiritually in the real world and how they cannot hear us guiding them because they ignorant, again “deaf, blind and dumb”. Being deaf and blind when mentioned in the Quran is not always literal. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn’t hate disabled people. It is symbolic.

It is true that the Verses I quoted are referring to people who are spiritually dead and deaf, but Allah is comparing them to those who are literally dead and deaf in the sense that they cannot hear. Now if those who are literally dead and deaf can hear, then the comparison would be erroneous.

We all agree that those who are literally deaf cannot hear. Now examine this Verse carefully: "you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating"

If the deaf cannot hear then the dead also cannot hear, because Allah has put them in the same category in the sense that we are unable to make either of them hear us.

If those who are literally dead can hear us, why does Allah compare the spiritually dead to the literal dead in the sense that both cannot hear (the spiritually dead can hear physically but they cannot hear spiritually). So to summarize, the spiritually dead cannot hear spiritually and the literal dead cannot hear literally, which is why the spiritual dead are called "dead" figuratively.

We both agree the spiritual dead cannot hear spiritually, but why are you believing the literal dead can hear literally? It makes no sense

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

We both agree the spiritual dead cannot hear spiritually, but why are you believing the literal dead can hear literally? It makes no sense

Salam brother. That’s because the Quran states so in the ayah I mentioned above.

 

41 minutes ago, Mariam17 said:

“Do not suppose those who were slain in the way of Allah
to be dead;
rather they are living
and provided for near their Lord, exulting
in what Allah has given them out of His grace, and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them
from [those left] behind them that they will have no fear,
nor will they grieve. They rejoice in Allah’s blessing and grace,
and that Allah does not waste the reward of the faithful.”

Your argument is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compares the deaf blind and dumb to the literal dead, therefore the dead just like the ignorant cannot hear. What about the this ayah that compares the literally dead people who are faithful to the actual living. Surely when you are alive you can hear. Regardless of what sect you belong to brother I advice you watch the vid I linked because it addresses all your points with evidence.

Edited by Mariam17
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16 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Salat and Salam upon the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم means you are asking Allah to bless and grant peace to the soul of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. His soul is not in this world, it is in another dimension.

Someone being alive in a grave doesn't make sense. Graves are for the deceased, to bury their corpses. If someone is alive in the grave, you should immediately exhume them from the grave or they will suffocate.

 

Lol someone being in the grave sure doesn’t make sense.......does sleeping in a cave for 100 of years in Quran make sense? 

just like earlier you believe Isra Miraj was spiritual so God created a spiritual horse with wings just to take the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to heaven?? If it’s spiritual why NOT just float up? Why use a vessel to go further?

I see you maybe the fringe spuedo Sufi who are the minority in Pakistan you sure ain’t the majority barelwi especially with your thoughts.

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6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

We all agree that those who are literally deaf cannot hear. Now examine this Verse carefully: "you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating"

Before you draw any conclusion based on ignorance, why not you first search the Quran to find what is that deafness Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is pointing at? 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 171:
وَمَثَلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا كَمَثَلِ الَّذِي يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لَا يَسْمَعُ إِلَّا دُعَاءً وَنِدَاءً صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
(English - Shakir)

So the spiritual dead or deaf actually can hear. But their hearing is just limited to sound (call & cry) and they are unable to get to the message of meaning.

7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

If the deaf cannot hear then the dead also cannot hear, because Allah has put them in the same category in the sense that we are unable to make either of them hear us.

:) Poor logic again. Deaf can hear but unable to understand or get to the message or meaning.

 

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@Cherub786 so you’re just going to disagree with every comment and not reply to the sufficient evidences we provided. Kind of ironic how we’re talking about the “deaf, [and] blind”.

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9 hours ago, Guest Chuck said:

Lol someone being in the grave sure doesn’t make sense.......does sleeping in a cave for 100 of years in Quran make sense? 

just like earlier you believe Isra Miraj was spiritual so God created a spiritual horse with wings just to take the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to heaven?? If it’s spiritual why NOT just float up? Why use a vessel to go further?

I see you maybe the fringe spuedo Sufi who are the minority in Pakistan you sure ain’t the majority barelwi especially with your thoughts.

The reality of Ashab al-Kahf is something most Muslims don't understand. The Quran actually says "do you think the companions of the cave and inscription were a strange thing from Our Signs?", it's a rhetorical question meaning the entire episode of Ashab al-Kahf as Allah describes in Quran is not actually supernatural or paranormal. They are described as sleeping in an esoteric sense, but in our observation, if we saw them, we would not think they were sleeping:

وَتَحْسَبُهُمْ أَيْقَاظًا وَهُمْ رُقُودٌ

And you would think them awake, while they were asleep (18:18)

Now if they were literally sleeping, why would we think they were awake if we were to see them. This is the major clue which vast majority of Muslims just skip over and fail to grasp.

Btw, where is the Buraq ever described as a horse with wings? You asked why, if it was a spiritual ascension, was there a need for a vessel. Before I answer, ask yourself why, when we die, our spirits are raised up by Angels:

 

الْمَيِّتُ تَحْضُرُهُ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ فَإِذَا كَانَ الرَّجُلُ صَالِحًا قَالُوا ‏:‏ اخْرُجِي أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الطَّيِّبَةُ كَانَتْ فِي الْجَسَدِ الطَّيِّبِ اخْرُجِي حَمِيدَةً وَأَبْشِرِي بِرَوْحٍ وَرَيْحَانٍ وَرَبٍّ غَيْرِ غَضْبَانَ فَلاَ يَزَالُ يُقَالُ لَهَا ذَلِكَ حَتَّى تَخْرُجَ ثُمَّ يُعْرَجُ بِهَا إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَيُفْتَحُ لَهَا فَيُقَالُ ‏:‏ مَنْ هَذَا فَيَقُولُونَ ‏:‏ فُلاَنٌ ‏.‏ فَيُقَالُ ‏:‏ مَرْحَبًا بِالنَّفْسِ الطَّيِّبَةِ، كَانَتْ فِي الْجَسَدِ الطَّيِّبِ ادْخُلِي حَمِيدَةً، وَأَبْشِرِي بِرَوْحٍ وَرَيْحَانٍ وَرَبٍّ غَيْرِ غَضْبَانَ ‏.‏ فَلاَ يَزَالُ يُقَالُ لَهَا ذَلِكَ حَتَّى يُنْتَهَى بِهَا إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الَّتِي فِيهَا اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ

Angels come to the dying person, and if the man was righteous, they say: ‘Come out, O good soul that was in a good body, come out praiseworthy and receive glad tidings of mercy and fragrance and a Lord Who is not angry.’ And this is repeated until it comes out, then it is taken up to heaven, and it is opened for it, and it is asked: ‘Who is this?’ They say: ‘So-and-so.’ It is said: ‘Welcome to the good soul that was in a good body. Enter praiseworthy and receive the glad tidings of mercy and fragrance and a Lord Who is not angry.’ And this is repeated until it is brought to the heaven above which is Allah. (Sunan Ibn Maja #4262)

So in Islamic doctrine, human souls or spirits do not just float up to Heaven by themselves, they require an Angel or an Angelic vessel to ascend. But let me turn the tables on you, you seem to believe the Prophet's Mi'raj was corporal with his Earthly body, how can a corporal, earthly body ascend through the Seven Heavens and survive? Where is the oxygen? How can it withstand the speed that would be required? There are so many problems you will have to deal with.

Of course I'm not a Barelawi, but my thoughts aren't fringe either.

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4 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

And you would think them awake, while they were asleep (18:18)

Now if they were literally sleeping, why would we think they were awake if we were to see them. This is the major clue which vast majority of Muslims just skip over and fail to grasp.

Salam brother. Wasn’t it that their eyes were open as it is scientifically proven if they were shut after all that time they would be blind. Correct me if I’m wrong.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Mariam17 said:

Salam brother. Wasn’t it that their eyes were open as it is scientifically proven if they were shut after all that time they would be blind. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Wa alaikum as-salaam

I haven't read in the Quran or even Hadith that they were sleeping with their eyes were open.

Edited by Cherub786
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4 hours ago, Cool said:

Before you draw any conclusion based on ignorance, why not you first search the Quran to find what is that deafness Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is pointing at? 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 171:
وَمَثَلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا كَمَثَلِ الَّذِي يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لَا يَسْمَعُ إِلَّا دُعَاءً وَنِدَاءً صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
(English - Shakir)

So the spiritual dead or deaf actually can hear. But their hearing is just limited to sound (call & cry) and they are unable to get to the message of meaning.

:) Poor logic again. Deaf can hear but unable to understand or get to the message or meaning.

 

You failed to grasp my argument, or intentionally misrepresented it. I know very well that the spiritually deaf can literally hear, but the reason they are termed "deaf" is because they cannot spiritually hear, just like the literal deaf cannot literally hear. Let me break it down for you

Spiritually deaf cannot hear spiritually

Literal deaf cannot hear literally

Likewise, the Quran says that the spiritually dead cannot hear. That means they cannot hear spiritually. Why are they called "dead", comparing them to the literal dead? Obviously because the literal dead cannot hear literally, otherwise the comparison is void. Let me break it down for you:

Spiritually dead cannot hear spiritually

Literal dead cannot hear literally

Now our debate is on the last point "literal dead cannot hear literally". You're side is arguing that the literal dead can hear literally, but that belief simply voids the comparison between the spiritual dead and the literal dead. It's not rocket science, it's a very simple concept, don't know why you can't understand.

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22 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Wa alaikum as-salaam

I haven't read in the Quran or even Hadith that they were sleeping with their eyes were open.

Insha’Allah someone can see this and provide evidence. I was led to believe this because of this article.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sadaffarooqi.com/2012/12/08/surah-al-kahf-the-curious-case-of-the-bohemian-boys/amp/

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11 hours ago, Mariam17 said:

Salam brother. That’s because the Quran states so in the ayah I mentioned above. Your argument is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compares the deaf blind and dumb to the literal dead, therefore the dead just like the ignorant cannot hear. What about the this ayah that compares the literally dead people who are faithful to the actual living. Surely when you are alive you can hear. Regardless of what sect you belong to brother I advice you watch the vid I linked because it addresses all your points with evidence.

The life of the martyrs is a spiritual life, as I've already explained several times. Answer this, if the martyrs are alive physically in this world with a corporal existence, why are their widows allowed to remarry? A woman who is married to a living Muslim man is not allowed to marry another man until her husband dies. Likewise, why is the estate of a martyr distributed among his heirs? The estate of a living person cannot be distributed and inherited from until after he dies.

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2 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Spiritually deaf cannot hear spiritually

Literal deaf cannot hear literally

Likewise, the Quran says that the spiritually dead cannot hear. That means they cannot hear spiritually. Why are they called "dead", comparing them to the literal dead? Obviously because the literal dead cannot hear literally, otherwise the comparison is void. Let me break it down for you:

Spiritually dead cannot hear spiritually

Literal dead cannot hear literally

Now our debate is on the last point "literal dead cannot hear literally". You're side is arguing that the literal dead can hear literally, but that belief simply voids the comparison between the spiritual dead and the literal dead. It's not rocket science, it's a very simple concept, don't know why you can't understand

I understand your argument by the same applies then here which I said before that has been u addressed.

 

11 hours ago, Mariam17 said:

Your argument is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compares the deaf blind and dumb to the literal dead, therefore the dead just like the ignorant cannot hear. What about the this ayah that compares the literally dead people who are faithful to the actual living. Surely when you are alive you can hear. Regardless of what sect you belong to brother I advice you watch the vid I linked because it addresses all your points with evidence.

 

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

The life of the martyrs is a spiritual life, as I've already explained several times. Answer this, if the martyrs are alive physically in this world with a corporal existence, why are their widows allowed to remarry? A woman who is married to a living Muslim man is not allowed to marry another man until her husband dies. Likewise, why is the estate of a martyr distributed among his heirs? The estate of a living person cannot be distributed and inherited from until after he dies.

Yes brother but I’m not saying a person who is a martyr is literally alive the same way you are saying the “deaf, dumb and blind” are not literally dead. What I’m saying is the same as you:

 

6 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Why are they called "dead", comparing them to the literal dead? Obviously because the literal dead cannot hear literally

Literally just replace the statement above and instead of “dead” but “alive” and “cannot hear” with “hear” and our structure of argument is the same. 

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8 minutes ago, Mariam17 said:

Insha’Allah someone can see this and provide evidence. I was led to believe this because of this article.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sadaffarooqi.com/2012/12/08/surah-al-kahf-the-curious-case-of-the-bohemian-boys/amp/

I’m actually done :hahaha: how are you brother @Cherub786 disagreeing with me when I haven’t even made an argument.

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1 minute ago, Mariam17 said:

Yes brother but I’m not saying a person who is a martyr is literally alive the same way you are saying the “deaf, dumb and blind” are not literally dead. What I’m saying is the same as you:

 

Literally just replace the statement above and instead of “dead” but “alive” and “cannot hear” with “hear” and our structure of argument is the same. 

Are we discussing if the martyrs can hear literally or spiritually? You seem to forget that. You're line of argument is that the martyrs are compared to the literal living, but how does it follow they can therefore literally hear like the literal living? You can say they hear spiritually, but as we've already agreed, hearing spiritually doesn't mean hearing sounds and voices, it means you hear the Truth through the inner faculty of hearing.

However, our dispute is whether the martyrs can literally hear, or more accurately, can they literally hear what is happening in this world, when they are no longer present in this world? That is the controversy which we are discussing, please don't throw in red herrings and confuse the issue.

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13 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

However, our dispute is whether the martyrs can literally hear, or more accurately, can they literally hear what is happening in this world, when they are no longer present in this world?

I believe they can hear literally when you visit their grave. Look brother non of this is going to make sense to you if you don’t see where I’m coming from and that is extracting my evidences based on the video I linked. Why can’t you just watch it if you have no fear of it contradicting your argument.

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Disagree all you want I’m just requesting you to watch a video that is based on evidence so you can gain an insight into our viewpoint. But if you want to remain stubborn that’s up to you.

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3 minutes ago, Mariam17 said:

I believe they can hear literally when you visit their grave. Look brother non of this is going to make sense to you if you don’t see where I’m coming from and that is extracting my evidences based on the video I linked. Why can’t you just watch it if you have no fear of it contradicting your argument.

Pardon me, I don't have time to watch such a lengthy video, I'm also at work and unable to. Maybe when I get some time. But why don't you summarize the proofs for your doctrine from that video and I will respond to that quicker. You can also see my website on this section

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Posted (edited)
On 8/13/2020 at 10:35 PM, Cherub786 said:

Perception of their life is a distinct matter from explaining what kind of life they enjoy. You have confused the two matters by imagining that when I say the martyrs are spiritually alive in Paradise I am perceiving their life (which the Quran declares impossible), whereas I am not perceiving their life but explaining what kind of life they have. Please understand this important distinction.

Secondly, I am not saying the Martyrs are alive in a physical or spiritual realm, I am saying they are alive in Paradise with a spiritual life, meaning their spirits are present in Paradise, and I am rejecting the notion that the Martyrs are alive with their original, earthly bodies or that they are alive in our Earthly realm (this dunya).

Now that I have made this clarification, I can, if you life, prove my thesis that the Martyrs are not alive in this world but they are alive in Paradise with their spirits. If you do not dispute this, then well and good, but if you dispute this, I shall proceed to prove my thesis ان شاء الله

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made it clear they are alive, this is not my contention, furthermore, it is evident from the verses the martyrs are residing in paradise, therefore they are not  connected to this duniya  Now, the question I am asking how do you know it a spiritual realm? The verses in question dose imply its a spiritual realm or even a physical realm, but somehow you have deduced from the verse its a spiritual realm, how did you concluded or decipher an conception that is not present in the verses? 

Please articulate concisely from the verses its spiritual dominion. 

And do not reckon those who are killed in the Way of Allah as dead; nay, they are alive and are provided sustenance in the presence of their Lord.

And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not Perceive 

Edited by power
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55 minutes ago, power said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made it clear they are alive, this is not my contention, furthermore, it is evident from the verses the martyrs are residing in paradise, therefore they are not  connected to this duniya

That is precisely my position. What are we arguing about?

Quote

Now, the question I am asking how do you know it a spiritual realm? The verses in question dose imply its a spiritual realm or even a physical realm, but somehow you have deduced from the verse its a spiritual realm, how did you concluded or decipher an conception that is not present in the verses? 

As I clarified in my previous post, I never actually said it is a spiritual realm. Whether Paradise is a spiritual realm or a physical realm, I never commented on that. What I did say is that the life of the martyr is a spiritual life, meaning his Spirit is present in Paradise, not his earthly, corporal body. The earthly, corporal body is buried in a grave in this dunya, after which it decomposes and nothing is left of it except dust and bones.

The life of the Prophets and martyrs is ruhani, barzakhi, jannati, ukhrawi

it is not jismani, dunyawi or hissi

That is all I am saying.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Let me break it down for you

Spiritually deaf cannot hear spiritually

Literal deaf cannot hear literally

Likewise, the Quran says that the spiritually dead cannot hear. That means they cannot hear spiritually. Why are they called "dead", comparing them to the literal dead? Obviously because the literal dead cannot hear literally, otherwise the comparison is void. Let me break it down for you:

Spiritually dead cannot hear spiritually

Literal dead cannot hear literally

Now our debate is on the last point "literal dead cannot hear literally". You're side is arguing that the literal dead can hear literally, but that belief simply voids the comparison between the spiritual dead and the literal dead. It's not rocket science, it's a very simple concept, don't know why you can't understand.

That's surprising:

Here is how your arguments is flawed. You said:

1. Spiritual dead cannot hear spiritually.

2. Literal dead cannot hear literally.

3. Therefore both are equal (that's why compared by God)

Here is what we're saying Alternately:

1. Literally alive can hear literally & spiritually.

2. Spiritual alive can hear spiritually as well as literally. 

3. Therefore both are equal (that's why we are prohibited to call them & think them as literally dead).

Now you have no option left but to accept our stance.

Checkmate!

Edited by Cool
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Surah As-Sajda, Verse 18:
أَفَمَن كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَن كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَّا يَسْتَوُونَ

Is he then who is a believer like him who is a transgressor? They are not equal.
(English - Shakir)

 

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On 8/11/2020 at 10:41 AM, Cherub786 said:

The Holy Quran very emphatically teaches that the deceased are unable to hear us. Death is the permanent disconnection of the soul from the earthen body, and permanent disconnection from this dimension. The deceased are absolutely unaware of what is happening in this world. The cemetery is merely a place to respectfully bury the bones of the deceased, otherwise their souls are not present inside the niche of the grave. The souls of the deceased are in another dimension, depending on their goodness or evil, either in Illiyyin or Sijjin. It is irrational to believe that dried bones and dust in the grave can hear us. As long as Muslims hold on to such irrational, illogical and absurd doctrines they will never be taken seriously and remain easy prey for militant atheists.

Then what is punished in in the grave ? dried bones & dust ?

Who is used to sit in the grave? Dried bones & dust in the grave?

To whom  the two angels asking the questions in the grave? Dried bones and dust in the grave?

Who replies  to the questions of  the two angels in the grave? Dried bones and dust in the grave?

 Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

Once the Prophet () went through the grave-yards of Medina and heard the voices of two humans who were being tortured in their graves. Sahih Al Bukhari Hadith no:6055

 Narrated Al-Bara' bin 'Azib :

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "When a faithful believer is made to sit in his grave, then (the angels) come to him and he testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. And that corresponds to Allah's statement: Allah will keep firm those who believe with the word that stands firm . . . (14.27).  Sahih al Bukhari Hadith no:1369

 Anas b. Malik reported Allah's Apostle () having said:

When the servant is placed in his grave, his companions retrace their steps, and he hears the noise of their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and say to him: What you have to say about this person (the Prophet)? If he is a believer, he would say: I bear testimony to the fact that he is a servant of Allah and His Messenger. Then it would be said to him: Look to your seat in the Hellfire, for Allah has substituted (the seat of yours) with a seat in Paradise. Allah's Messenger () said: He would be shown both the seats. Qatada said: It was mentioned to us that his grave (the grave of a believer) expands to seventy cubits and is full with verdure until the Day when they would be resurrected.

 Sahih Muslim Hadith no:2870a

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1 minute ago, elite said:

Then what is punished in in the grave ? dried bones & dust ?

Who is used to sit in the grave? Dried bones & dust in the grave?

To whom  the two angels asking the questions in the grave? Dried bones and dust in the grave?

Who replies  to the questions of  the two angels in the grave? Dried bones and dust in the grave?

 Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

Once the Prophet () went through the grave-yards of Medina and heard the voices of two humans who were being tortured in their graves. Sahih Al Bukhari Hadith no:6055

 Narrated Al-Bara' bin 'Azib :

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "When a faithful believer is made to sit in his grave, then (the angels) come to him and he testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. And that corresponds to Allah's statement: Allah will keep firm those who believe with the word that stands firm . . . (14.27).  Sahih al Bukhari Hadith no:1369

 Anas b. Malik reported Allah's Apostle () having said:

When the servant is placed in his grave, his companions retrace their steps, and he hears the noise of their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and say to him: What you have to say about this person (the Prophet)? If he is a believer, he would say: I bear testimony to the fact that he is a servant of Allah and His Messenger. Then it would be said to him: Look to your seat in the Hellfire, for Allah has substituted (the seat of yours) with a seat in Paradise. Allah's Messenger () said: He would be shown both the seats. Qatada said: It was mentioned to us that his grave (the grave of a believer) expands to seventy cubits and is full with verdure until the Day when they would be resurrected.

 Sahih Muslim Hadith no:2870a

Punishment of the Grave, here grave does not mean the burial plot where the corpse is placed, it refers to another dimension different from our time and space where the soul is placed, and depending on its condition, either punished or experiences delights. So here Qabr refers to Alam al-Barzakh and not the literal burial plot. This is a matter of mushahidah that the burial plots contain nothing but bones and dust.

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55 minutes ago, Cool said:

That's surprising:

Here is how your arguments is flawed. You said:

1. Spiritual dead cannot hear spiritually.

2. Literal dead cannot hear literally.

3. Therefore both are equal (that's why compared by God)

Here is what we're saying Alternately:

1. Literally alive can hear literally & spiritually.

2. Spiritual alive can hear spiritually as well as literally. 

3. Therefore both are equal (that's why we are prohibited to call them & think them as literally dead).

Now you have no option left but to accept our stance.

Checkmate!

When two things are compared it does not necessarily mean they are equal, it usually means they are similar. There is a distinct difference between similar and identical/equal. Therefore your entire argument is void. Let me demonstrate:

1. Literally deaf cannot hear literally

2. So according to you spiritually deaf cannot hear literally too, because they are equal?

My friend, I encourage you to study basic, basic logic, in fact, study basic common sense.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

If the deaf cannot hear then the dead also cannot hear, because Allah has put them in the same category in the sense that we are unable to make either of them hear us.

They are dead spiritually. You scholars (non-salafi/wahabi) agree that the dead can hear us. And your hadith literature proves that aswell. Their are many quranic verses that supper intercession so those verses show that the ones that talk about intercession in negative manner has a context. One it’s about the arrogant, two it’s about the pagans. 

Edited by THREE1THREE
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2 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

When two things are compared it does not necessarily mean they are equal, it usually means they are similar.

Lol, let me quote your words so kindly remind this to yourself:

21 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

but Allah is comparing them to those who are literally dead and deaf in the sense that they cannot hear. Now if those who are literally dead and deaf can hear, then the comparison would be erroneous.

 

Allah 

5 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

1. Literally deaf cannot hear literally

2. So according to you spiritually deaf cannot hear literally too, because they are equal?

lol, You're still beating the drum. Allah has not compare any to literal deaf. 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 171:
وَمَثَلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا كَمَثَلِ الَّذِي يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لَا يَسْمَعُ إِلَّا دُعَاءً وَنِدَاءً صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
(English - Shakir)

Better to accept your arguments were flawed or at least don't defend them.

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14 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Qabr refers to Alam al-Barzakh

No, no one enters Alam al-Barzakh until they have been purified or they will go into hellfire in barzakh if the purification of the grave wasn’t enough. Allah created another body for you when you are being purified in the squeezing of the grave. 
 

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23 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

They are dead spiritually. You scholars (non-salafi/wahabi) agree that the dead can hear us. And your hadith literature proves that aswell. Their are many quranic verses that supper intercession so those verses show that the ones that talk about intercession in negative manner has a context. One it’s about the arrogant, two it’s about the pagans. 

How do you know who my scholars are?

I quoted the Hadith narrated by Umm al-Mu'minin A'ishah سلام الله عليها where she denied that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم addressed the pagan corpses that were thrown in the well of Badr and said "they hear me", rather, she explained, what he actually said was "now they know that what I used to say is the Truth", then she quoted two Verses from the holy Quran which clearly state that you cannot make the deceased hear.

So the Holy Quran is clear that the deceased are unable to hear.

Those mainstream Sunnis who say the deceased can hear mean they can hear in a very limited sense, like they can hear the footsteps in the cemetery leaving after the burial and they can hear the greeting of salam when someone greets them upon entering the cemetery. None of them teach that they can hear everything from the grave.

At any rate, I believe the deceased can not hear anything from this world. I've already answered the Hadith about the sound of shoes in the cemetery. Incidentally, there is another Hadith which says it is forbidden to wear footwear in the cemetery, we are actually suppose to walk barefoot when visiting the graves, so that is another problem with the Hadith about the deceased hearing the sound of shoes in the grave. Again, the Quran is quite clear the deceased are unable to hear. Science and rationality also teach us that once your dead your faculty of hearing is no longer functioning. And the deceased begin to rot in the grave, their corpses decay until nothing but the skeleton is left. How can a skeleton hear? A skeleton doesn't have ears, it doesn't have an ear drum, it doesn't have nerves, it doesn't have a brain...and according to Islam, it doesn't have a soul, it is dead, lifeless, end of story.

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

Those mainstream Sunnis who say the deceased can hear mean they can hear in a very limited sense

Buddy stop acting like a Trinitarian and give the video a look. Your Bukhari is In my favour and so are your 4 imams. If your gonna continue that way then your no different to @Leslie P

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4 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Buddy stop acting like a Trinitarian and give the video a look. Your Bukhari is In my favour and so are your 4 imams. If your gonna continue that way then your no different to @Leslie P

Acting like a Trinitarian? What are you talking about?

It doesn't matter who is in your favor, the whole world can be in your favor. The fact remains the deceased cannot hear, end of story.

إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا۟ دُعَآءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا۟ مَا ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟ لَكُمْ

If you invoke them, they do not hear your supplication; and if they heard, they would not respond to you.

(Surah 35:14)

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