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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imams of ahlul bayt alive and can hear.

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8 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

If tawassul is a bid’a and there is no instruction from the imams to do it, why are so many of our ulema supporting it? Why are only wahhabis opposed to it?

I don’t mean to direct this towards you in particular, because it’s very common. But essentially this is how these debates always end. The weight of evidence is clearly on one side of the argument, but this is the trump card that gets used as a last resort. But in that case, we might as well have started there.

In terms of answering the question, I don’t think it’s that relevant what the Wahhabis do or say. Like any other group, they will be right about some things and wrong about others. It doesn’t make any sense to oppose them on everything just for the sake of it. We need to evaluate the evidence for ourselves and come to our own conclusions.

As for the scholars, I can only speculate, but partly I would say a lot of it has to do with the culture they are raised in, and the traditions that have developed in Shi’ism, as I mentioned in another post.

Additionally, it’s well know that the Qur’an hasn’t had much importance placed on it in the Hawza. That’s why tafsir isn’t as highly valued as fiqh, and why so many Shia scholars have such terrible tajweed. Now, if you mainly focus on the narrations, sure, you can make some case for a lot of these beliefs, even if it’s still not that strong. But when you use the Qur’an as a filter, they just fall apart. That’s why such torturous interpretations of Qur’anic verses need to be applied, because the obvious meaning completely contradicts what we are supposed to believe.

By the way, Kamal al-Haydari also talks about how scholars have put narrations before the Qur’an, and how the narrations are filled with all kinds of fabrications. Unfortunately he applied that primarily to fiqh, and by and large seems to defend the same anti-Qur’anic exaggerated beliefs as everyone else, like wilayah takwiniya. It’s very odd, but I guess that’s the power of culture and tradition.

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@Cherub786 Rasool Allah [saww] addressing the Kuffar who were killed in the battle of Badr Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: “The Messenger of Allah spoke to the People (buried) in the Well saying: “Have

@Cherub786 so you’re just going to disagree with every comment and not reply to the sufficient evidences we provided. Kind of ironic how we’re talking about the “deaf, [and] blind”.

Obviously not. Obviously yes. Is this really a mainstream thing to do? I don’t think this is haram or shirk, but probably useless. It also doesn’t really make any sense for people who be

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2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

By the way, Kamal al-Haydari also talks about how scholars have put narrations before the Qur’an, and how the narrations are filled with all kinds of fabrications.

Are you referring to this ?

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15 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Have you considered the other verses of Quran that say Allah choses to whom He reveals the unseen verses? 

I don’t deny revelation, so of course Allah gave the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) some knowledge of the unseen, as the Qur’an states, and that knowledge was passed on to the Imams (عليه السلام). But I don’t believe they have access to it on tap. In fact, the Qur’an makes clear that at times the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has to wait to obtain knowledge of some things.

15 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

if the prophet can know about future events and past events before his time, then wouldn’t he be able to have the Knowledge of the secrets of heaven and earth of what Allah choses to reveal to him. 

No, why would that be? Just because some knowledge is shared with you, it doesn’t mean all the knowledge is.

There is also a very simple way of checking that the Imams didn’t have all this knowledge people claim, outside of religious knowledge. Why aren’t our books filled with it then? Why did some misguided Shias have to resort to fabricating stories showing this alleged knowledge, which from our perspective now seem embarrassing. Why even know are we busy circulating fabricated stories of golden books, and narrations they are studied by modern scientists?

Its because the remit of the Imams was religion, and that’s what they talked about. Not chemistry or astrophysics.

And by the way, unlike the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), many Imams loves during the Islamic Golden Age, so it’s not like there weren’t plenty of non-religious matters they could have commented on. But as it is, where are all the narrations containing this knowledge? And if they weren’t talking about this knowledge, then what was the point of possessing it?

15 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

JazakAllah khayran.

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2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

don’t deny revelation, so of course Allah gave the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) some knowledge of the unseen, as the Qur’an states, and that knowledge was passed on to the Imams (عليه السلام).

You admitted before that imams ((عليه السلام)) have knowledge of the world but not exactly everything but enough to satisfy. 
 

do you accept some the things that are mentioned in Nahjul balagha ? For example about the peacock or about universe how it’s within us. 

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51 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

If tawassul is a bid’a and there is no instruction from the imams to do it, why are so many of our ulema supporting it? Why are only wahhabis opposed to it?

Surah no 12. Prophet Yusuf's brother asking their father Prophet Yaqub to pray for their forgiveness. Verse 97,98

They said, "O our father, ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners.

He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

What do you think of the fact that the Qur’an contains countless supplications and none of them are through anyone other than Allah?

It is fair to day tawasul is not shirk, and that it has been shown in the previous scripture. The Du’a are mention here for our benefit. When we are making intercession we are asking Allah but someone is doing do it on our behalf. 
 

 

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23 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

You admitted before that imams ((عليه السلام)) have knowledge of the world but not exactly everything but enough to satisfy. 

What do you’d mean by enough to satisfy?

23 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

do you accept some the things that are mentioned in Nahjul balagha ? For example about the peacock or about universe how it’s within us. 

Of course I accept many things in Nahjul Balagha. As for what you’ve mentioned, you’d have to go into more detail before I could answer.

20 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Which books are you referring to exactly? 
 

Our main books of hadith, like al-Kafi, etc.

14 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Didn’t say all but some which keeps a person satisfied. 

Again, I’m not sure what this means. If you mean they had enough knowledge to answer any question that could be asked of them, then no, I don’t believe that.

4 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

It is fair to day tawasul is not shirk, and that it has been shown in the previous scripture. The Du’a are mention here for our benefit. When we are making intercession we are asking Allah but someone is doing do it on our behalf. 

I didn’t say what you describe is shirk. But I would like your opinion on why Allah gave so many duas and all of them involve addressing Allah directly. So if this is the example set forth by Allah in the Qur’an, are we really going to say we have a better way of doing it?

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2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Of course I accept many things in Nahjul Balagha. As for what you’ve mentioned, you’d have to go into more detail before I could answer.

 

what do you think about this knowledge. 

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16 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So if this is the example set forth by Allah in the Qur’an, are we really going to say we have a better way of doing it?


no, why didn’t the brothers of yosef not ask directly to Allah to forgive them instead seeking their father to ask. The crime doesn’t matter.  Now the way I’ve addressed tawasul is not shirk and that those who die go to the realm of barzakh. Like i said before an angel would carry out that task of sending the request to the interceders. So if the imams ((عليه السلام)) are alive in the realm of barzakh than they can receive our requests via angels. 
 

haven’t you heard narrations after some battles the prophet or imam Ali would ask the one who is killed a question ? 

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37 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:


no, why didn’t the brothers of yosef not ask directly to Allah to forgive them instead seeking their father to ask. The crime doesn’t matter.  

If I slander you can I just ask Allah to forgive me, or do I have to ask you?

But nobody denies that Prophets and Imams have a high station with Allah, and having them pray for you would be a great blessing. Having said that, the only times people seem to ask Prophets in the Qur’an is when they’ve personally wronged those Prophets. Added to which those Prophets were living with them, whereas they aren’t living with us, and we have no proven means of communicating with them other than sending salaam.

By the way, is this really was about getting as close as possible to Allah through someone else, then people would only ask the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for intercession, since he is the best of creation. So why then do people ask for example Sayyida Masuma in Qum, or even Imam Ali for that matter?

37 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Now the way I’ve addressed tawasul is not shirk and that those who die go to the realm of barzakh. Like i said before an angel would carry out that task of sending the request to the interceders. So if the imams ((عليه السلام)) are alive in the realm of barzakh than they can receive our requests via angels. 
 

And as I’ve said this isn’t proven. The only thing that is proven is that they are informed of salaams. If it was more than that, then why would the narrations specify salaams? That would seem a bit odd.

37 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

haven’t you heard narrations after some battles the prophet or imam Ali would ask the one who is killed a question ? 

The only instance I know of is the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after the battle of Badr, and that may just be a one off miracle of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). To my knowledge we don’t have any instances of him talking to his loved ones who had just been killed. And we know the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was deeply pained when those he loved died. For example, Sayyida Khadija (عليه السلام). There are reports he would cry if even reminded of her. That doesn’t seem as likely if he could still have conversations with her whenever he wanted.

 

Again, I’ll go back to my main point. There is no direct evidence. What you have are set of beliefs that have evolved over time, in response to a number of factors (culture, other sects such as Sufis, other religions, etc), and now people are scratching around for evidence to justify this. It’s funny that when they comes to something people disagree with like tatbir, they can see it clearly, but not in cases like this. Considering you spend so much time debating Christians I would have thought you would be good at noticing when people are trying to ‘explain away’ certain texts, while twisting others to suit their doctrines. If you step outside of ‘orthodoxy’ for a second and just look at this from as close to an objective position as possible, I believe you will see all this stuff barely hangs together.

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1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

If I slander you can I just ask Allah to forgive me, or do I have to ask you?

Different case. 

 

2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

them other than sending salaam.

That is sufficient enough. Now how is that Salam conveyed to the prophet? He is not all-hearing. 

 

3 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

To my knowledge we don’t have any instances of him talking to his loved ones who had just been killed.

When the mother of imam Ali died the prophet talked to her by telling her the Answers of the angels questions. 
 

 

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20 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Different case. 

How so? Generally if someone wrongs you do they not have to ask you to forgive them?

20 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

That is sufficient enough. Now how is that Salam conveyed to the prophet? He is not all-hearing. 

Of course he’s not all hearing. But you need to explain why the hadiths specify that the angels convey salaams, if in reality they conveyed all speech directed at the Prophet. Why would the hadiths be needlessly specific?

20 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

When the mother of imam Ali died the prophet talked to her by telling her the Answers of the angels questions. 

I’m not doubting this, but what is the source?

And notice that in all these cases the speech is by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and it takes place just after the people went into their graves. Do you think the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was having conversations with Abu Talib, Hamza, Khadija, Zayd, etc, after they died?

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9 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

There is no proof for that.

Surah Al-Hajj, Verse 78:
وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving as is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!
(English - Shakir)

This is where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is addressing the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

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2 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

@Haydar Husayn if you don’t mind have a look at this 9 minute video by kamal al-haydari on the hadith “Ask me ask me before you lose me” 

 

It’s all about how you want to understand that hadith. Notice that in some versions only the Qur’an and Sunnah are mentioned, and that’s how I would interpret it generally. He could tell them anything about religion until the Day of Judgment, because he knew the signs of it (and there is a narration where is asked about that day, and he doesn’t say when it is, but just gives the signs for it that the Prophet gave). But it’s clear he couldn’t have meant he knew literally anything, because if he had known that, then his battles with Muawiya would have gone differently, unless you think he deliberately didn’t win.

With regards to the other Imams, there are narrations they mention them looking things up in the hooks of their forefathers. Was that just an act?

I’ll also add that al-Haydari’s point about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) not knowing the unseen, because he was taught it is very weak. If someone tells you something, then you know it. The fact that it was taught to you is irrelevant. This is just some attempt as getting round the obvious problem of saying that the Imams knew the unseen, which sounds like ghuluw. But in practical terms what he is saying is that they do know the unseen.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Surah Al-Hajj, Verse 78:
وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving as is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!
(English - Shakir)

This is where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is addressing the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

I like how you say that as if it’s the most obvious thing in the world. As far as I can tell most Shia mufassirs haven’t interpreted it like that. So far I’ve only seen narrations of that type in tafsir al-Qumi, which contains lots of strange interpretations, but that’s it (although I admit I only had a quick look).

Do you have any strong reason for believing this is the best interpretation? Because it certainly doesn’t seem to be a natural interpretation of the text.

يا أيها الذين آمنوا اركعوا واسجدوا واعبدوا ربكم وافعلوا الخير لعلكم تفلحون

O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and worship your Lord and do good - that you may succeed.

وجاهدوا في الله حق جهاده هو اجتباكم وما جعل عليكم في الدين من حرج ملة أبيكم إبراهيم هو سماكم المسلمين من قبل وفي هذا ليكون الرسول شهيدا عليكم وتكونوا شهداء على الناس فأقيموا الصلاة وآتوا الزكاة واعتصموا بالله هو مولاكم فنعم المولى ونعم النصير

And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah . He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper.

 

Sounds like Allah is taking to the Muslims, as is normally the case when Allah says ‘O you who have believed’.

 

But anyway, nobody who takes the mainstream interpretation, that this is referring to the Muslims, believes dead Muslims can hear what is going on now, or they Muslims who are alive know everything that is going on in the world. Or for that matter that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) knew everything that was going on in the world (he didn’t even know everything that was going on in his community).

So even if we say that this is referring to the Imams, how does that prove they can hear us and see us from where they are? And if they can, what is the point of the hadith that say our salaams are conveyed to them. Seems a bit redundant...

So your interpretation seems to raise more questions that it answers. But in any case I’m looking forward to you proving that the interpretation you have given is the strongest one.

Why is the evidence you guys bring always so weak? Even I could make a better case than this.

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4 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

 

what do you think about this knowledge. 

You’ve got to be kidding me... That is a ridiculous leap to make. Assuming this can even be authentically traced to Imam Ali (عليه السلام), these are lines of poetry (it’s from the Diwan of Ali ibn Abi Talib, not Nahj al-Balagha)! So this could mean absolutely anything, and there is absolutely no reason to connect it with chemical elements in the universe, which by the way wouldn’t even be correct, since our bodies don’t actually contains all the elements in the universe. Apparently only about 40 elements have been found in the human body.

You know, if the Imam wanted to display cosmic knowledge, there were easier ways of doing it than making some obscure reference in a couple of lines of poetry. Like maybe explaining how germs work or something...

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@Cool

Since I want to be fair I’ll admit I’ve just come across an authentic hadith from al-Kafi with the meaning you gave, although as I said above I don’t agree with your interpretation of it:

4 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن ابن أذينة، عن بريد العجلي قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: قول الله تبارك وتعالى: " وكذلك جعلناكم أمة وسطا لتكونوا شهداء على الناس ويكون الرسول عليكم شهيدا " قال: نحن الأمة الوسط ونحنشهداء الله تبارك وتعالى على خلقه، وحججه في أرضه، قلت: قوله تعالى: " يا أيها الذين آمنوا اركعوا واسجدوا واعبدوا ربكم وافعلوا الخير لعلكم تفلحون * وجاهدوا في الله حق جهاده هو اجتباكم [1] " قال: إيانا عنى ونحن المجتبون، ولم يجعل الله تباركوتعالى في الدين " من حرج " فالحرج أشد من الضيق " ملة أبيكم إبراهيم " إيانا عنى خاصة و " سماكم المسلمين " الله سمانا المسلمين " من قبل " فيالكتب التي مضت " وفي هذا " القرآن " ليكون الرسول عليكم شهيدا [2] وتكونوا شهداء على الناس " فرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله الشهيد علينا بما بلغنا عن الله تبارك وتعالى، ونحن الشهداء علىالناس، فمن صدق يوم القيامة صدقناه ومن كذب كذبناه.

 

It seems like a lot of research could be done into this ayah and other similar ones, but since there is an authentic narration I’m not going to argue against it. However, just as I said before I still don’t get how this shows the Imams (عليه السلام) can hear everything, anymore than the other interpretation would show that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) hears everything.

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For me, yes they can hear. It is Wajib to do salam back to someone. So every day when we say Salam to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in prayer, does he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) do Salam back or not?

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Salam,

There are reasons to why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give us physical and spiritual parts.  Physical is limited to our current situation,  to observe  and witness, and  to undergo for several years.  Spiritual is to observe and witness beyond the limits of physical realm.  We  as humans are given heart that serve as communication tool to world beyond physical realm.

We says shahadat:

I bear witness to the Tawhid of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Prophethood of Muhammad (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Are we deprived the communication to them?

Then we witness Ali(عليه السلام) is Waliullah...our Ulil Amr and again we are deprived of communication with them?  From those have authority on us!

In physical world, we use these words...hear, talk, voice...  But, the spiritual communication is difficult to describe.  When we say Salam to the Prophet, it not the words that go to the Prophet.  The whole of our existence goes to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), we are with him and the Prophet will reply...He is with us.  That is why Salam to the Prophet and Family is part of salah, and a compulsory one.

Salah is a spiritual communication to put in place that we are with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Allahswt is with us.  Part of Salah, we are with the Prophet and Family  and they are with us.  We are also parts of all the Prophets and Mukminin, and they are part of us.

We are one, and this is how we communicate.  If one of us gets hurt in the Middle East,  we feel that too. If our Imam was oppressed in Karbala, we feel that too.  This is how we communicate.  This is spiritual communication.

When we are in trouble  because of our belief,  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), our Prophet and Imams feel that too.  Our physical wordings...such as seeking help or tawassul is just physical expression, but the message through our heart already reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and our Ulil Amr, because our communication with them is not physical.

The expression of Love to Ahlulbayt...is a communication and this communication is a two way and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is The Grand Witness of this communication.  When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sees the Ahlulbayt and see us with them, then we are safe even though we are all physically very much apart with everybody.

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2 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

For me, yes they can hear. It is Wajib to do salam back to someone. So every day when we say Salam to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in prayer, does he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) do Salam back or not?

That’s correct if prophet Muhammad can hear us say Salams and he reply back in sha Allah. Question was why do they make fun of us if we say ahlul bayt can hear and reply back to Salams yet mufti menk mentioned in the video that prophet can do why can’t his family?

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8 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

because if he had known that, then his battles with Muawiya would have gone differently, unless you think he deliberately didn’t win.

Allah reveals to him whatever He wants to from get go, so when we ask questions most of the time they are answered unless they are irrelevant for example I remember once their was a debate with an imam and  the Jewish asked him a set of questions and one of them was did Moses speak Aramaic or Hebrew to Allah? The imam replied, only Allah knows.

 

8 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

But in practical terms what he is saying is that they do know the unseen.

No they don’t they have to seek it from somewhere, ultimately the knower of the unseen is Allah and He choses to reveal some to whomever He wants. In theory it wouldn’t be shirk. 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

How so? Generally if someone wrongs you do they not have to ask you to forgive them?

When someone steals he has wronged the other person but when the person who stole realises he committed a grave sin he seeks forgiveness from Allah. Let’s bring it a further ahead, let’s say someone was a thief for most part of his life then he found the light and sought forgiveness from Allah, does he have to go to everyone he had wronged ? (I’m sure he won’t remember all of them) 

10 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

It’s all about how you want to understand that hadith. Notice that in some versions only the Qur’an and Sunnah are mentioned, and that’s how I would interpret it

But many are not. 

 

10 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Do you think the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was having conversations with Abu Talib, Hamza, Khadija, Zayd, etc, after they died?

He had a convo with the kaffirs whom he killed. The sameway imam Ali did. 
 

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At times like this one should take a step back and ask themselves: 

We have supplications throughout the Qur'an and we have supplications from the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so there are plenty of examples of how prophets and aimmah used to supplicate as well as which supplications they transmitted and taught to their followers.

Keeping all this in mind, why are we fighting tooth and nail and trying to find anything that might remotely (after being reinterpreted, reworded, mixed and matched in the most roundabout and indirect ways) support a method of supplication which is the opposite of what has been taught/transmitted/narrated/revealed?

Has it not just become a case of being called out on a trend that crept into some of our communities, and instead of admitting that it differs greatly from what we have actually received in the Qur'an and in hadith, there is a stubborn insistence of trying to still justify it? 

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2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

At times like this one should take a step back and ask themselves: 

We have supplications throughout the Qur'an and we have supplications from the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so there are plenty of examples of how prophets and aimmah used to supplicate as well as which supplications they transmitted and taught to their followers.

Keeping all this in mind, why are we fighting tooth and nail and trying to find anything that might remotely (after being reinterpreted, reworded, mixed and matched in the most roundabout and indirect ways) support a method of supplication which is the opposite of what has been taught/transmitted/narrated/revealed?

Has it not just become a case of being called out on a trend that crept into some of our communities, and instead of admitting that it differs greatly from what we have actually received in the Qur'an and in hadith, there is a stubborn insistence of trying to still justify it? 

The problem is the scholars endorse these practices and beliefs, or at best stay quiet on them. This encourages others to feel confident that they are correct, no matter how far-fetched the arguments are (after all these same arguments are often made by scholars). If the scholars were against this stuff, at least 90% of the people defending it would be against it too.

By the way, this is why we have often seen on ShiaChat intelligent members who start off with common-sense views on these matters, but once it dawns on them that the scholars are on the opposite side of the argument to them (sometimes radically so), they tend to soften their position, if not change it completely. This seems especially true of those with a strong desire to identify with ‘orthodoxy’.

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7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

However, just as I said before I still don’t get how this shows the Imams (عليه السلام) can hear everything, anymore than the other interpretation would show that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) hears everything.

Salam, 

Thank you for accepting the meanings of verse I have shared and thank you for making my job easy by quoting authentic hadith from Al-Kafi.

I am not taking the help of hadith at the moment, I will try to prove that this is indeed the true meaning of that verse from other verses of Quran.

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 124:
وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
(English - Shakir)

Here Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was asking for the continuation of divine covenant in his offspring. And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is affarming that His covenant doesn't include the zalimeen. Means that the covenant will continue in the offspring of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in those who're Aadil (Just). 

Now come back to the verse 22:78, specifically to phrases:

ملة أبيكم إبراهيم 

هو اجتباكم 

Do you think you're the descendent of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)? Do you think that you're a chosen one? And if your answer is yes, do you think you are not zalim (unjust) in any point of your lifetime? Who can dare to answer yes to all these 3 questions except the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)! 

Now come to another phrase of 22:78:

10 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

ليكون الرسول شهيدا عليكم وتكونوا شهداء على الناس

Do you think you have been given the honor of witnessing whole people? Are you a witness over me and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a witness over you? No you're not, you cannot be the witness because you are not the bearer of divine covenant (Imamate). 

Next question, what makes someone witness? The one who either saw or even hear the acts of anyone? What could possibly make one witness over nass (people) if he neither listened nor watched any single act of people? 

I am not advocating that the witness must possess the divine traits of all hearing & all watching. I am just saying that the ones who are made witness by All-Watching (Al-Sami) & All- Hearing (Al-Baseer) God, can hear & see anything by & through the approval of God Almighty. 

So yes, I do believe that our deeds are presented before our Imam (عليه السلام) & before our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) too for they are the witness over us. 

Now another phrase of 22:78:

10 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّ

Wa'tasemu Billah, what is the difference between this & "wa'tasemu be hablillah" (3:103)? Why it is said for a group to "hold on to Allah" while to other "hold on to the rope of Allah"? Why the one who rejects the taghut & accepts the truth clings on to "urwatul wuthqa"? It is quite clear that the group of people to whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is addressing, are His chosen ones and the bearers of divine covenant. And this group itself is the "hablillah" & "urwatul wuthqa". While the other group was directed to follow & hold onto them (the chosen ones, the bearers of divine covenant).

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 105:
وَقُلِ اعْمَلُوا فَسَيَرَى اللَّهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَسَتُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ

And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Apostle and the believers; and you shall be brought back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, then He will inform you of what you did.
(English - Shakir)

I hope I am clear now. 

Wassalam.

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Posted (edited)

@Haydar Husayn Salaam what about going to Karbala and visiting shrines and praying in the shrines toward the graves? or writing a letter to Imam and throwing it in the river after mixing it with some flour (if you are shia you know what I’m talking about lol).
Is all of that haram / shirk?

Edited by Ejaz
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2 hours ago, Ejaz said:

@Haydar Husayn Salaam what about going to Karbala and visiting shrines

Obviously not.

2 hours ago, Ejaz said:

and praying in the shrines toward the graves?

Obviously yes. Is this really a mainstream thing to do?

2 hours ago, Ejaz said:

or writing a letter to Imam and throwing it in the river after mixing it with some flour (if you are shia you know what I’m talking about lol).
Is all of that haram / shirk?

I don’t think this is haram or shirk, but probably useless. It also doesn’t really make any sense for people who believe that the Imam (عليه السلام) can see/hear you anyway. Why write a letter if you think you can ask him directly?

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