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In the Name of God بسم الله

Women are lower than men

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ان الکرمکم عند الله اتقاکم

Indeed the greatest in the eyes of Allah is the most faithful one

He probably refering to the verse الرجال قوامون علی النسا. It's correct, but it's for leadership positions like family, country, etc. It's better to leave overal leadership of the family to man and house msnagement to women. I dont see any superiority or inferiority in this task management

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I was recently wondering why, in most human societies, women are judged for potential not achievement. A pretty young woman who has done nothing is considered a better potential wife than a hard-worki

As Quran reveals, any "superiority" is belief vs. non-belief. Ayat 3:55 for example.

My advice: ignore the jahil. You can’t argue with someone that dumb.

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On 8/11/2020 at 6:33 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Can I suggest that this is not as per "Manufactures Manual"?

Manufactures Manual says a man should have ONE wife - as per the creation Adam and Eve (God didn't make Adam and 4 Eves)  If a man is promiscuous and has many sexual partners and so produces many children he is not acting in accordance with the Manufactures Manual.  This is one of the reasons there is so many issues between men and women.  We do not come together as a monogamous partnership for life and so reap the horible consequenses.

You litterally just admitted that the prophets such as Abraham(عليه السلام), David(عليه السلام) in the bible who had multiple wives are not following Gods command

The reason why Adam(عليه السلام) had one wife was because this would litterally mean that we all have the same parents, meaning people will have a harder time justifying their discrimination against other peoples.

Also your bible never even says how many wives you should have only your churches do, now the quran on the other hand DOES say that you can ONLY have ONE wife if you cannot do justice between them.

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On 8/9/2020 at 3:31 AM, AdinAnikas said:

he also said that since our bibis didnt work, us women shouldnt either cuz we have to follow in their footsteps

The bibis (sa) also had sons and husbands like the Masoomeen (ams). Ask him  to become like them first, if he wishes to play the comparison game.

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It cannot be said that men are superior to women in an absolute sense or vice versa. Everyone is judged as an individual not on the basis of their gender. However, the male gender or jins is clearly superior to the female gender, the greatest proof of this is that the greatest creation of Allah - His Prophets عليهم السلام - were males. Even if you follow the valid opinion that there were some female prophets, they were few and far between as compared to the male Prophets. And since this is a Shi'ah forum, consider also that out of the 14 Ma'sumin of the Shi'ah, 13 are male and only 1 is female.

Consider also that only a male has the authority to be an Imam or Amir of the Muslims, only a male can lead the congregational Salat, only a male can call the Adhan, only a male can give the Khutbah, and many similar examples. This is not only due to the regulations of hijab, meaning it cannot only be boiled down to this issue, I believe it is because the male gender is in fact superior to the female gender.

Now because men have more power they also have more responsibility. A woman's responsibility and path to salvation is very simple. If she is married the purpose of her life is basically to serve her husband. She need only fulfill the obligatory acts of Islam like the Maktubat. Her service to her husband is superior to her engaging in Nawafil acts of worship. As long as she is doing her Maktubat and her husband is happy with her, then Allah is happy with her. Therefore, a woman who serves her husband faithfully but doesn't have much knowledge of Islam or engage in supererogatory worship is superior to a woman who is constantly praying, fasting, making pilgrimages, reading the Quran, acquiring knowledge, making dhikr, tasbihat, reciting Salawat, etc., but who is negligent of her domestic duties as a wife and mother. 

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Consider also that only a male has the authority to be an Imam or Amir of the Muslims, only a male can lead the congregational Salat, only a male can call the Adhan, only a male can give the Khutbah, and many similar examples.

Salam it's about men & women relation but in shia Islam a woman can do whole of these action just for a group of women even a woman can be marja for other women 

 

consider also that out of the 14 Ma'sumin of the Shi'ah, 13 are male and only 1 is female.

this is a wrong comparison & doesn't  prove your point that also other pious women mentioned  in holy Quran like lady Maryam (sa) & her mother & Asiah the wife of pharaoh  & mother of prophet Musa (عليه السلام) .

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's about men & women relation but in shia Islam a woman can do whole of these action just for a group of women even a woman can be marja for other women 

this is a wrong comparison & doesn't  prove your point that also other pious women mentioned  in holy Quran like lady Maryam (sa) & her mother & Asiah the wife of pharaoh  & mother of prophet Musa (عليه السلام) .

This is news to me that in your madhhab a woman can give the khutbah and call the adhan. In my Madhhab, a woman can never give the khutbah or even sit on the minbar, nor can she ever call the adhan publicly.

Let me ask you, is Lady Maryam سلامٌ عليها superior to her son sayyidina Masih al-Ma'wud عليه السلام? And is Umme Musa سلام الله عليها superior to sayyidina Musa عليه السلام? So what was the point of mentioning this?

My argument is not that every individual male is superior to every individual female. That is obviously not the case. There may even be times and places where majority of pious people are women and majority of evil people are men. My point is that the male gender itself is superior to the female gender, which is why, for example, the institution of Risalah is a male institution, as Allah says: "ِWe sent not before you except men to whom We revealed..." (12:109)

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6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

ore you except men to whom We revealed..." (12:109)

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 O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. (13)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/49:13

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

They Ayah you quoted refers to superiority on an individual level. On an individual level, the most superior is the most righteous individual. But when I say the male gender is superior to the female gender, it is not on that individual level of superiority that I speak.

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Posted (edited)

On what level are men superior to women? Intellectually, concerning Iman or what?

In Shia Fiqh there are some scholars who confirm that women are equal to men in almost all terms:

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Ayatollah Ishāq Fayyādh has also tried to discuss a number of verses and traditions which have been used to defend the prohibition of women in assuming these roles. In relation to the verse in the Qur’ān: “Men are in charge of women”[11] he explains the following: “The superiority of man over women is limited to the family life, meaning when it comes to the family affairs men are considered to be the guardians (of women). However, when it comes to social life there is no difference between man and woman.”[12] Ishāq Fayyādh, by separating family life from general aspects of life, considers this verse restricted to the personal and family life and does not extend it to the social sphere.

Furthermore, Ayatollah Fayyādh in response to questions about the traditions which speak of women being deficient in intellect and religion says the following: “These traditions are not reliable and attributing them to the Prophet is not correct. In addition, these traditions cannot be supported or verified as they go against what has been observed and is essentially true. As it is clear and tangible that the intellect of women, in whichever field of society they have applied themselves, is no less than that of man’s. From the Qur’ān and the traditions it can be seen that this difference does not exist.”[13]

https://www.iqraonline.net/ayatollah-ishaq-fayyadh-and-the-role-of-women-in-society/

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In relation to the position of ijtihād for women, Ayatollah Jawādi Amulī has an opinion very similar to Ishāq Fayyādh. He says: “I recall one of the former jurisconsults explicitly and verbally say if such was to happen it would be an insult to the position (of ijtihād).”[7] In a critique of this Ayatollah Jawādi continues: “This statement is, from one angle, due to not understanding the human essence of a lady, and from another angle it is down to an oppressive understanding of women (perpetuated) by tyrannical regimes as no more than mere instinctive and economical objects. Thirdly, the prevention of women from being able to access and benefit from these lofty, intellectual and textual sciences (has also contributed to this negative attitude). And fourthly the fact that ladies themselves considered it not allowed for themselves to do so, in addition to a number of other well-known and not so well-known reasons.”[8] Ayatollah Jawādi recognises the neglect women have faced throughout history and the fact that their potential has been indifferently overlooked. In his belief, if attention was given to the lofty aspects of women, then reaching the stage of religious emulation would not have been out of their grasp.

https://www.iqraonline.net/ayatollah-ishaq-fayyadh-and-the-role-of-women-in-society/

Muslim men should be careful about considering themselves superior in intellect than other people. Today Chinese build the most advanced technologies, so can they be considered as intellectually superior to anyone else? The Islamic world on the contrary is alsmost behind every other civilization technologically, and Muslims depend on all parts of the world and even fight each other like there is no tomorrow.

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On 8/13/2020 at 3:21 AM, HusseinAbbas said:

Also your bible never even says how many wives you should have only your churches do, now the quran on the other hand DOES say that you can ONLY have ONE wife if you cannot do justice between them.

I'm sorry - I think I took this thread "off topic"

The Bible in Genesis is clear that God's intention is for a mogonomus life long marriage relationship between one man and one woman. Genesis chapter 2

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

You cannot be "united" with more than one person because it removes the idea of unity and equality.  You cannot become "One flesh" with more than one person.  If you do it causes tensions and hurts.

Jesus the Messiah affirmed this interpretation.  Matthew Chapter 19

“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

I see this as saying if you have more than one wife you are dividing, putting a wedge into, a relationship God has joined together.

Yes the prophets including Abraham, David and Solomon were not acting in accordance with God's plan and desire for people.  If you read the stories in the Old Testament you will see that it is the many wives that caused these godly people to have dysfunctional families and sometimes to move away from serving the One God.  The stories are included to show us the negative consequences of not following God's creation ordinance.

Hey guys - why insult your wife and women in general by using them as sex objects and wanting to marry more than one women or sleep around with prostitutes.  There is no reason why you should do this.  It is an excuse to satisfy the lusts of your flesh.  It is not a godly way to behave.

 

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23 hours ago, lover said:

On what level are men superior to women?

Okay back to topic!

This is an important question.  I don't think there is any argument that men and women are different.  We look different, we are physically different, we are emotionally different.  These differences make men better at somethings than women and women better at somethings than men.  It also means that men can do somethings that women can't and visa versa.  So we could say that in some areas men are superior to women and in some areas women are superior to men.

But there are other areas where there is opportunity to be equal.  We all, both men and women, have the same ability to know God and enter into a close intimate relationship with him.  As a consequence both men and women can share what they have learnt and experienced from this close loving relationship with God with other people (both men and women) in order to help draw them into a closer relationship with God.

Both men and women have the ability to study and learn and to pass what they discover to others.  Should we hinder girls from gaining an education or moving on to become teachers? - Of course not.  Each person who has studied is able to contribute and offer a unique perspective which everyone can process and benefit from thinking about.

Both men and women have the God given ability to care for others and show love and concern to those in need.  Both sexes should have the opportunity to be involved equally in the caring professions.

Each person, whether male of female, are valuable in God's sight.  His love and mercy - along with his justice - is shown equally to men and women.  God makes no distinction and he calls us to follow his example.

May God help us to love and respect the opposite sex so that we can live together in this world in harmony for the good of all.

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On 8/11/2020 at 8:18 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

We know that the Prophet {s} was troubled by some of his wives, and we have evidence of how he reacted in those cases. Leaving them for a while and separating from them is actually one of the things that he did.

Part of Qur'an an-Nisa 4:34 But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

This verse rases the question "when there are problems and tensions between a husband and wife how are we to deal with them?"

I wonder if the word "advise" is helpful here.  I think we should be talking about how to stop problems getting worse.

We must control our anger

  • One of Solomons proverbs says (Ecclesiastes 7:9) Be not quick in your spirit to become angry, for anger lodges in the bosom of fools.
  • and another (Proverbs 19:11) Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.
  • The injil says (Ephesians 4:26) Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

Talking and discussing the issue in a calm way. Recognising that there are two sides to every problem and I could be the one in the wrong always helps.

We must be willing to forgive

  • Ephesians 4:31-32 explains the importance of forgiveness "Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."
  • Proverbs 12:16 Fools show their annoyance at once, but the prudent overlook an insult.
  • Proverbs 19:11 A person’s wisdom yields patience; it is to one’s glory to overlook an offense.

Is our attitude to punish? - The impression I get from the verse in the Qur'an is there are degrees of punishment.  I would suggest that our attitude should be one of seeking to restore the relationship as soon as possible

  • 1 Peter 3:8-9 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Thanks for this opportunity to contribute.  May God grant us wisdom in our marrage realtionships.

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On 8/14/2020 at 2:45 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Yes the prophets including Abraham, David and Solomon were not acting in accordance with God's plan and desire for people.  If you read the stories in the Old Testament you will see that it is the many wives that caused these godly people to have dysfunctional families and sometimes to move away from serving the One God.  The stories are included to show us the negative consequences of not following God's creation ordinance.

Why did God give several wives to David then?

Quote

2 Samuel 12 (NIV)

12 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.

4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”

5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

And look at how God talks about David's wives. Doesn't seem very respectful.

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On 8/14/2020 at 3:08 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Okay back to topic!

This is an important question.  I don't think there is any argument that men and women are different.  We look different, we are physically different, we are emotionally different.  These differences make men better at somethings than women and women better at somethings than men.  It also means that men can do somethings that women can't and visa versa.  So we could say that in some areas men are superior to women and in some areas women are superior to men.

But there are other areas where there is opportunity to be equal.  We all, both men and women, have the same ability to know God and enter into a close intimate relationship with him.  As a consequence both men and women can share what they have learnt and experienced from this close loving relationship with God with other people (both men and women) in order to help draw them into a closer relationship with God.

Both men and women have the ability to study and learn and to pass what they discover to others.  Should we hinder girls from gaining an education or moving on to become teachers? - Of course not.  Each person who has studied is able to contribute and offer a unique perspective which everyone can process and benefit from thinking about.

Both men and women have the God given ability to care for others and show love and concern to those in need.  Both sexes should have the opportunity to be involved equally in the caring professions.

Each person, whether male of female, are valuable in God's sight.  His love and mercy - along with his justice - is shown equally to men and women.  God makes no distinction and he calls us to follow his example.

May God help us to love and respect the opposite sex so that we can live together in this world in harmony for the good of all.

I wouldn't sugar-coat your religion too much.

Quote

1 Timothy 2 (NIV)

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

Quote

 1 Corinthians 14 (NIV)

34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]

 

Quote

1 Timothy 2

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;b she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

Quote

Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

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On 8/13/2020 at 12:33 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

 

٦ ـ محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن محبوب ، عن مالك بن عطية ، عن سليمان بن خالد ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه‌السلام أن قوما أتوا رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله فقالوا يا رسول الله إنا رأينا أناسا يسجد بعضهم لبعض فقال رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله لو أمرت أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها.

الحديث السادس : صحيح.

Here you go, from al-Kafi. Authentic according to al-Majlisi.

so it means that the hadeeth is authentic which is sad to me actually

and by the way thank you to everyone whos still giving in points and keeping the topic alive, its extremely helpful

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1 hour ago, AdinAnikas said:

so it means that the hadeeth is authentic which is sad to me actually

and by the way thank you to everyone whos still giving in points and keeping the topic alive, its extremely helpful

It’s hypothetical. It says ‘If I was to command someone to prostrate to anyone (but Allah), then I would command a woman to prostrate to her husband.’

Obviously that doesn’t mean women actually do have to prostrate to them, or that it should be taken literally. Often the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would speak in hyperbolic language to emphasise the importance of something (for example the severity of certain sins). In this case, it is showing respect to your husband. However, there are also narrations on men showing respect to their wives, so it’s not a one-way street. Most famously ‘the best of you is the one who is best to his wives’.

Note that I’m not saying men and women are ‘equal’ in a marriage according to Islam, but it’s certainly not as your uncle describes it.

If women are so inconsequential, why is paradise at the feet of the mother, and not the father?

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On 8/14/2020 at 4:40 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

And look at how God talks about David's wives. Doesn't seem very respectful.

This is exactly the illustration of what I am saying.

God punishes David because he committed adultery with Bathsheba.  The consequence was his first son by her died.  His bad example rubbed off to his sons and eventually the consequence that Nathen predicts comes true when David's son Absalom rises up against him and rapes David's wives in broad daylight on the palace roof.

2 Samuel 16 22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he slept with his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.

Not a nice story - but it shows clearly some of the negative consequences of going against God's best plan for families and marriage.

BTW  It is interesting that the passage you quote with Nathan's story is alluded to in the Qur'an and helps us to understand an interesting verse.  Qur'an sura 38 Saad

23  Indeed this, my brother, has ninety-nine ewes, and I have one ewe; so he said, 'Entrust her to me,' and he overpowered me in speech."

24  [David] said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe [in addition] to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down bowing [in prostration] and turned in repentance [to Allah].

See Zebur – Psalm 51 for David’s prayer of repentance

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm+51&version=NIV

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8/14/2020 at 10:45 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

I wouldn't sugar-coat your religion too much.

Thanks for joining the discussion

I'm interested that you think I'm sugar-coating my religion.  I haven't mentioned any verse from the Bible, I have just looked at Men and Women from a logical perspective (of course it is coloured by my understanding of God) and drawn some conclusions.  Do you think that the conclusions I have drawn are wrong?  Do you disagree with my perspective of men and women?  If so why and what are the grounds for it?

The verses you mention are addressing a different question (worship in a particular church setting) and I agree they have been misused by Christians in the pass to oppress women.  But that doesn't take away from the overall metanarrative of the Bible which gives men and women equality and respect.  If you go on and read further in Ephesians 5 you will see that the husband is expected to be willing to love his wife to the point of death:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

A wife who has a husband who loves her like this will willingly submit because of the depth of love and understanding between them.

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On 8/15/2020 at 6:36 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

God punishes David because he committed adultery with Bathsheba

You reject the most important fundamental theology in the gospel which is infallibility which I have clearly proven. And you arrogantly deny, I suggest you stop playing it “safe” because the verses that give will you a good slap are between our hands. 

On 8/14/2020 at 2:45 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Chapter 19

“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Fabricated by Pauline authors. Mathew 5:17 is sufficient for my argument, don’t need use other traditions as authority over it.

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@Dave follower of The Way 

15And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel." (Genesis 3:15)

On 8/14/2020 at 4:45 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

No law says that. 

On 8/14/2020 at 4:45 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Rubbish by Paul as usual. 

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@Dave follower of The Way

You didn’t respond to the point about God giving David multiple wives. Why would he do that if it wasn’t something He approved of?

You seem to be trying to imply that David was punished for going against God’s plan for marriage, which is a bit misleading in the context of this discussion. David was punished for adultery, not polygamy. God gave David those wives, and this is mentioned at the same time as giving David other blessings.

With regards to the verses about women in the Bible, the point isn’t whether it is in the context of worship in a church or not, but the logic used to justify these rules.

Quote

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Paul is clearly indicating that women are inferior to men due to Eve being formed second, and her being responsible for being deceived by Satan, and hence for the Fall.

Quote

1 Corinthians 14 (NIV) 

34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]

No logic is given here as far as I can tell, but perhaps you could explain why it should be disgraceful for a woman to speak in Church? Do any Churches even follow this rule?

Quote

Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Here an analogy is drawn between the relationship between a man and his wife, and Christ and his church. And women are told to submit themselves to their husbands as they do their Lord, which means total submission.

The problem I have with your presentation of your understanding of the relationship the sexes is that nowhere so you mention any of this, even though the question is on what level are men superior to women. Rather, you seem to want to give the impression that in Christianity men and women are ‘different but equal’, which is clearly not the case, at least according to the teachings of Paul.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/14/2020 at 3:45 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I'm sorry - I think I took this thread "off topic"

Yes, this is the last I will speak of this because I need to clarify some points.

Quote

The Bible in Genesis is clear that God's intention is for a mogonomus life long marriage relationship between one man and one woman. Genesis chapter 2

 

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

 

You cannot be "united" with more than one person because it removes the idea of unity and equality.  You cannot become "One flesh" with more than one person.  If you do it causes tensions and hurts.

Thats not necessarly true, you can be united if you do justice between them and I have seen realife examples.

This verse is also ambigious, it seems to talk in general which is the language everyone uses "a man and his wife" this is typical because most people cannot do justice between multiple wives.

The word united here means that the man and woman made a contract(marriage) they united with this contract, multiple wives does not mean there is no unity, you can have a marriage with multiple wives.

Even in your bible it says that Jesus(عليه السلام) and his diciples are one, does this mean that this verse is a contradiction because he has multiple diciples?  Ofcourse not, they are united in their mission. You can have unity with multiple people wether it is mission or marriage.

If everyone is on beard then it will work out, that is why these marriages in islam are not recommended except if everyone is clearly on board with it.

Quote

Jesus the Messiah affirmed this interpretation.  Matthew Chapter 19

 

“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

 

I see this as saying if you have more than one wife you are dividing, putting a wedge into, a relationship God has joined together.

 

Yes the prophets including Abraham, David and Solomon were not acting in accordance with God's plan and desire for people.  If you read the stories in the Old Testament you will see that it is the many wives that caused these godly people to have dysfunctional families and sometimes to move away from serving the One God.  The stories are included to show us the negative consequences of not following God's laws.

One of the reasons why I cannot accept the bible is with the depiction of the prophets(عليه السلام) and many times the bible accuses women of being evil like eve when she is responsible for the original sin, which explains why they would make the wives cause the problems, but again prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had multiple wives, the immams (عليه السلام) had multiple wives and it worked out well, they managed to satisfy the needs of their wives and treat them with dignity and respect, as a matter of fact I even heard of this story of a woman who accepted her husband to have a second wife because she was infertile and the relationship worked wonders, I have also seen many examples in africa where the population of women is more then men and one sollution was to marry multiple women so the women can have husbands, every day the husband would visit a wife and treat her well, the only reason this is so taboo is because of the femenist movment where they dispise this sort of stuff.

 

 

Also making polygamy a big no no has caused a lot of people to have multiple mistresses, which is wrong, that is why Allah(stw) has a solution, do it throught marriage and not in a secret relationship.

 

And yes you make the argument that it may cause divisions, but so can the same problems arise in a monogomus relationship where the wife might be jealous of how much a guy talks to his mother or freind, this by no means is a good argument to abolish marriages with one or multiple wives.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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On 8/13/2020 at 3:54 AM, Cherub786 said:

This is news to me that in your madhhab a woman can give the khutbah and call the adhan. In my Madhhab, a woman can never give the khutbah or even sit on the minbar, nor can she ever call the adhan publicly.

 

I remeber going to a sunni school in canada and the women would do the adhan and give khutbas to a female audience, the men would do the same for a male audience.

 

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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@Dave follower of The Way made a good point here, if we want to talk about polygamy in islam vs what the bible says and the treatment of women in the bible, please open other threads, this thread subject is unrelated to what we are speaking right now.

The subject is specifically about if women are inferior to men in islam.

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1 hour ago, HusseinAbbas said:

I remeber going to a sunni school in canada and the women would do the adhan and give khutbas to a female audience, the men would do the same for a male audience.

 

What's the name of the school? Is it associated with ISNA?

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9 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

The school is in montreal called JMC

Jeunes musulmant canadien(Young canadian muslims)

Quebec isn't a good place for Muslims to live. It's extremely racist and Islamophobic. The rest of Canada is much better and ideal.

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7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Quebec isn't a good place for Muslims to live. It's extremely racist and Islamophobic. The rest of Canada is much better and ideal.

Ok but this has nothing to do with the muslim school I was in, my muslim school was full of arabs and some quebecois who's parents converted to islam.

 

Also what you said is partislly true Quebec has a lot racist people but from my general experience I have never experienced racism, except when some quebecois looked at me cold as if I am some stranger, but another quebecois guy told me that quebecois are just like this so I doubt it is racism unless I try to stretch it.

Also you suggest to me to move out, I am living in poverty right now and I am waiting for my diploma, unless I get a job that pays well, I am not quitting quebec and it's misersble rainy weather(montreal ofcourse) some farmer from quebec told me it was always sunny and rained time to time.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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6 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Ok but this has nothing to do with the muslim school I was in, my muslim school was full of arabs and some quebecois who's parents converted to islam.

Also what you said is partislly true Quebec has a lot racist people but from my general experience I have never experienced racism, except when some quebecois looked at me cold as if I am some stranger, but another quebecois guy told me that quebecois are just like this so I doubt it is racism unless I try to stretch it.

Also you suggest to me to move out, I am living in poverty right now and I am waiting for my diploma, unless I get a job that pays well, I am not quitting quebec and it's misersble rainy weather(montreal ofcourse) some farmer from quebec told me it was always sunny and rained time to time.

The thing you have to understand about Sunni Arabs is that vast majority of them follow a modernist version of Islam. Even al-Azhar university, which used to be a traditionalist Sunni bastion, became a modernist institution during the time of Muhammad Ali Pasha. The major religious currents among the Arabs are modernist, especially Muslim Brotherhood and the various political trends that are affiliated with it or are its offshoots. Unlike the situation of Sunni Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, where the modernist tendency, associated with Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and the Aligarh school, failed to become the strongest influence among Muslims in the religious sphere. Most Arab regimes are not only secular, but being authoritarian they imposed a State approved version of Islam that is highly modernist, and this approach to Islam has been carried over to the West by Arab immigrants from the Levant and North Africa

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4 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The thing you have to understand about Sunni Arabs is that vast majority of them follow a modernist version of Islam. Even al-Azhar university, which used to be a traditionalist Sunni bastion, became a modernist institution during the time of Muhammad Ali Pasha. The major religious currents among the Arabs are modernist, especially Muslim Brotherhood and the various political trends that are affiliated with it or are its offshoots. Unlike the situation of Sunni Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, where the modernist tendency, associated with Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and the Aligarh school, failed to become the strongest influence among Muslims in the religious sphere. Most Arab regimes are not only secular, but being authoritarian they imposed a State approved version of Islam that is highly modernist, and this approach to Islam has been carried over to the West by Arab immigrants from the Levant and North Africa

 

You will have to prove that JMC specifically adheres to this type of Islam.

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On 8/15/2020 at 2:55 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

The problem I have with your presentation of your understanding of the relationship the sexes is that nowhere so you mention any of this, even though the question is on what level are men superior to women. Rather, you seem to want to give the impression that in Christianity men and women are ‘different but equal’, which is clearly not the case, at least according to the teachings of Paul.

 

On 8/16/2020 at 3:47 PM, HusseinAbbas said:

The subject is specifically about if women are inferior to men in islam.

Okay I brough a Christian perspective when the OP was about Islam (sorry)

I agree that in Christian theology there is a challenge about the position of women, but I think overall in God's eyes (and that's what matters) he made us equal but different.

Paul makes a comment about the community of believers in Colossians chapter 3

11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Okay, I agree it doesn't mention men and women but the thrust of the verse is that everyone can have an intimate inseparable relationship with Jesus the Messiah whoever they are.  The way this works out in prctice shows the differences between men and women but not degrees of superiority.

If we look at Islam there are some great verses in the Qur'an where believing men and believing women are put on an equal level - no superiority at all.

  • Qur'an sura al-Ahzab 33:35 Indeed, the Muslim men Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.
  • Qur'an sura at-Tawbah 9:71  The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
But I don't see that in the way Mosques are run; how the worship space is laid out; how my Muslim men friends treat their wives and how some 'Muslim' countries have rules about women's engagement with society.
Maybe someone could explain this to me as I have no authority nor am I in a position to comment on Islam and Islamic practice.
Thank you.
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On 8/14/2020 at 6:55 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Qur'an an-Nisa 4:34 But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], leave them.

I suggest you work on your research. 

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2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

But I don't see that in the way Mosques are run;

I’ve seen a lot contrary to what your claiming. Now if we want to point fingers then the upper hand would be us. 
1. Not only Arabs are Muslims 

2. Women literally host many things in the mosques for women more than men... 

men on the other hand is Friday prayers all (men and women) are present and also in other special occasions. 

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

how my Muslim men friends treat their wives

You have no friends. That comment says it all.

Their is not a single Lebanese nor Jordanian, nor Palestinian nor Tunisian nor Turk, nor Iraqi (trinitarian; thank God their is barely any and the nostorians are the bread winners) nor european nor American or in any nation a trinitarian young girl dresses the way the are expected to, according to the Talmudic modest options. 

Every single one of them dress like loose women and claim it to be “classy” and were the cross and quote biblical quotes.

wait it gets even better, in instagram she quotes a biblical quote and next minute a full half naked photos of herself and sometimes wearing lingerie. 

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

how the worship space is laid out;

Women at the back and men at the front. That’s called modesty and lowering ones gaze during worship.

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

some 'Muslim' countries

Why bother mentioning them if you don’t consider them to be Muslim....

Edited by THREE1THREE
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