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In the Name of God بسم الله

Women are lower than men

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salam everyone

one of my family members said that a man is way more superior than a woman according to islam since he is allowed to marry 4 times and he said that it is also mentioned somewhere that after Allah a woman could prostrate to her husband, he also said that men have better brains and that a woman's brain is in her ankles. I started the discussion by saying that we're equal in our own ways as in we get the balance and sometimes i think women have it more but he was like no ur wrong cuz ur lower no matter what, ur physique is lower, u pray less than us(periods), ur iq is lower and u cant do what men do and after marriage ur husband is the main deal

obviously this pissed me off and hes the kinda person who wont even listen to what u have to say.

if someone could bring out all the points on this and women in islam in general and also hadeeths or quranic verses reagrding it id be very thankful

he also said that since our bibis didnt work, us women shouldnt either cuz we have to follow in their footsteps and i said that the world is changing etc but he didnt listen, could someone give me valid counter points

i really need ur help cuz i hate it when men talk like that:worried::ranting:

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I was recently wondering why, in most human societies, women are judged for potential not achievement. A pretty young woman who has done nothing is considered a better potential wife than a hard-worki

As Quran reveals, any "superiority" is belief vs. non-belief. Ayat 3:55 for example.

My advice: ignore the jahil. You can’t argue with someone that dumb.

  • Veteran Member

Salam,

Without really giving my personal opinion on the subject, all the points that this person brought up are pretty dumb.

- why is being allowed to marry four times a sign of superiority?

- a woman is not allowed to prostrate to her husband (there is a hadith that IF prostration was allowed to other than Allah it would be for a wife to her husband, I'm not sure of the reliability of that narration)

- if men have better brains, in what sense exactly? In the Muslim world don't women tend to be a lot more educated than men?

- in terms of physic, that is also not necessarily true, a woman who trains can surpass a man who doesn't, even in terms of raw strength if the man's lifestyle is too bad that is reflected in his health. But aside from strength this is obviously a complete generalisation.

- what he is refering to after marriage?

There is no doubt that men have authority over their wives in many areas so that isn't much point arguing that point. But as for the rest none of them are particularly good point.

Coming from someone who generally holds the same position as your relative, a better way to out your position across is to go online and makes loads of sarcastic anti-women comments then quickly retreat and sit back and laugh.

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@notme  ln the background l have "Story in the Public Square" on. The interviewee is Hillary Friedman, sociologist, who has written Here She ls, a perspective on pageants. [l remember Bert Parks]. ln the interview, she said that bathing suits was the success element for the pageant in the 1920s.

She also said the modern feminist movement began outside the Miss America in 1968 because it gave them a high profile platform. Their primary 'complaint' was judging women by the way they looked. 

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:hahaha: I stopped reading when I heard 

14 hours ago, AdinAnikas said:

that after Allah a woman could prostrate to her husband

I’m sorry habibty I only bow down to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I don’t even know where to approach such an ignorant mindset of certain boys, not men.
 

I’ll come back later to read the rest and reply more in depth because I’m a little busy at the moment.

Ma salam sis.

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12 hours ago, AdinAnikas said:

he is allowed to marry 4 times and [...] he also said that men have better brains and that a woman's brain is in her ankles.

The reason why men is allowed to have 4 wives is because their brain is often located in the endowment they have between their legs.

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Guest Pschological Warfare

In a general sense, any Charge/Claim against Islam based on person(s) personal understanding is not valid. what Islam is and what some may understand to be are two different Realities. 

Before we look at anything form Islam's perspective. Specially dealing with Male and female( man and women). Try thinking in terms of Nature, to get a proper understanding, environment/society/current "view" is not a standard to use for judgement. 

For starters- The whole thing( Universe/earth/elements) is an Eco System. Is Air superior to Water? ( They are part of the Eco system and have their respective function(s) and importance. 

Similarly, Male and female are part of an Eco System - Nature Directive- Procreate. ( if you don't agree, you are arguing against facts and Nature not Islam).

Male and female complement each other - you can't procreate with out that- You need Two people or ( Male and female Direct/indirect participation). So, both are equally important. 

However, female as Nature intended it to be for ( Manufactures Manual) are limited to the off springs they can produce. Male can have 100's if not 1000' ( with multiple partners). You may not like this disparity but this is a Natural Fact. So, the things are not about our like or dislike - its what is Natural ( Manufacture intended to be). 

In general Male are physical strong compared to females ( Exceptions/and outliers don't make a norm). Based on natural abilities there are certain tasks which are for males and others for females. The best Option/the best person to perform the task in a optimal manner. Can the other do it, Yes- not optimal and does not produce optimal results. You will never employ a person to perform a task in a business who can do it but disregard the preferred person. the most qualified is the best for the task. 

Females can carry and produce offsprings male can't . Should this be a inferiority issue? 

Instead of looking at this from a Silo perspective- If one looks at the male and female relationship and function from a holistic/30 degree view All which may look like  disparity will fall in place, as things/function are interconnected and the net result is optimal for both. In silo view any thing could be made to look like some injustice is been done. If there is a lack of something/right it is well compensated in other things to keep the Natural balance. However, clever people can focus on the negative of one thing/rule/right and manipulate the people- its common tactic - very vocal and determined campaign can be waged to demonize any things-

May Layman understanding of things - As we know female/Women are the most important to a good generation- they nurture and raise the next generation. To change the way of the people - you need to change the way their women think an you will get the desired results. Hence- the outsiders laser like focus on Women in Islam. 

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Hi There!  Can I have an imput from a 'Christian' perspective?  I know the 'Christian' church diesn't have a very good track record on this one (It would seem from the first post that Islam doesn't either!)

I would like to go back to the creation story.  We can learn a lot about God's perspective on Men and Women from this account.  It is God's perspective that is important isn't it?  There seem to be two accounts of the one creation event in Genesis.

Genesis chapter 1:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

The creation of human beings in God's likeness required God to make both male and female.  This gives both men and women an equality and a complimentarity.  Both genders reflect something of God but it is only when they are looked at together (and I would suggest with equal respect) that we get the full rounded image of God that he wanted to display through his creation of human beings.

Genesis chapter 2:

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

The first time God says that something isn't good is when he looks at the male loneliness.  The male is incomplete with out the female.  The rest of creation is unable to supply the longing in a person's heart for a relationship with another human.

Verse 20 implies that the woman is there as a helper for the man.  Men and women are interdependant - there is no idea of one being better than the other.

A lot happened after the creation event which has damaged the equality and mutual respect, love and understanding that should be seen between Men and Women, but that doesn't take away the high position both men and women have together as God originally intened and as followers of God we should seek to live out in our realtionships.

There's lots more to say but this post is already too long!

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10 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hi There!  Can I have an imput from a 'Christian' perspective

Salam brother, thank you for your insightful information.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/9/2020 at 11:28 PM, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

However, female as Nature intended it to be for ( Manufactures Manual) are limited to the off springs they can produce. Male can have 100's if not 1000' ( with multiple partners). You may not like this disparity but this is a Natural Fact. So, the things are not about our like or dislike - its what is Natural ( Manufacture intended to be)

Can I suggest that this is not as per "Manufactures Manual"?

Manufactures Manual says a man should have ONE wife - as per the creation Adam and Eve (God didn't make Adam and 4 Eves)  If a man is promiscuous and has many sexual partners and so produces many children he is not acting in accordance with the Manufactures Manual.  This is one of the reasons there is so many issues between men and women.  We do not come together as a monogamous partnership for life and so reap the horible consequenses.

Edited by Dave follower of The Way
spelling!
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Posted (edited)

I mean we just have to look at Islamic history. Our beloved Imams (عليه السلام) and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) married more than once for either necessity, for alliance reasons etc. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was married to Khadijah (عليه السلام) solely and after she died he married more than once in order to unify the Muslims or help widows etc. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) married widows and even an old woman just to keep their reputation in tact due to the patriarchal Arabian society back then. Last time I checked a lot (not all) men when engaging in polygamy nowadays desire young virgin women. Likewise, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was married solely to Fatima (عليه السلام). When she died and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) knew war was approaching only then did he engage in polygamy.

I’m not against polygamy because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) states it in the Quran, but people are forgetting the context and making it some fetish. 

Edited by Mariam17
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On 8/8/2020 at 5:19 PM, Ali_Hussain said:

- a woman is not allowed to prostrate to her husband (there is a hadith that IF prostration was allowed to other than Allah it would be for a wife to her husband, I'm not sure of the reliability of that narration)

I have heard this hadith before also. Here is the hadith. It is from Sunan Ibn Dawud. 

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/95

Obviously, unless there is another source for this, there are alot of hadith in this collection that are problematic. Now, one thing is that this hadith does have an Isnad(chain of transmitters), but I am not an expert in this area, so if some brothers want to examine the Isnad and judge based on that. If someone can make a strong case that it is authentic, then we will have to deal with it. Until that point, I will reserve judgement on its authenticity. 

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On 8/11/2020 at 7:07 AM, Abu Hadi said:

I have heard this hadith before also. Here is the hadith. It is from Sunan Ibn Dawud. 

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/95

Obviously, unless there is another source for this, there are alot of hadith in this collection that are problematic. Now, one thing is that this hadith does have an Isnad(chain of transmitters), but I am not an expert in this area, so if some brothers want to examine the Isnad and judge based on that. If someone can make a strong case that it is authentic, then we will have to deal with it. Until that point, I will reserve judgement on its authenticity. 

It is also narrated in some form by Ibn Maja and Ahmad bin Hanbal, both authenticated by al-Albani

https://islamqa.info/amp/ar/answers/223712

We have a few roots to similar narrations as well, there are two in Basa'ir al-Darajat

محمد بن الحسن الصفار في (بصائر الدرجات) عن أحمد بن موسى عن الحسن بن موسى الخشاب عن علي بن حسان عن عبد الرحمن بن كثير عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يوما قاعدا في أصحابه إذ مر به بعير فجاء حتى ضرب بجرانه الأرض ورغا فقال رجل: يا رسول الله أسجد لك هذا البعير فنحن أحق أن نفعل؟ قال فقال لا بل اسجدوا لله ثم قال لو أمرت أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها الحديث.


سعد بن عبد الله في (بصائر الدرجات) عن الحسن بن موسى الخشاب مثله إلى قوله فقال لا بل اسجدوا لله إن هذا الجمل يشكو أربابه ثم ذكر قصة الجمل ثم قال وذكر أبو بصير أن عمر قال أنت تقول ذلك؟ فقال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) لو أمرت أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها الحديث. ورواه الكليني والصدوق كما يأتي في النكاح في حديث حسن عشرة المرأة مع زوجها.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1220_وسائل-الشيعة-الإسلامية-الحر-العاملي-ج-٤/الصفحة_374#top

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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

Islam is a patriarchal religion there is no need to beat around the bush, however, that does not mean women cannot reach a position of taqwa equal to or higher then their fellow counterparts. 

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Islam owes its very survival during its nascent phase to the ingenuity and sacrifices of a woman (salamun alayha).

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A man can't give life. Woman give life. How come someone of a higher position can come from someone of a lower position, if what your family members said is true, which is not.

Woman are not lower than men, in fact the opposite could be more correct, if the women would truly see themselves and their potential. Namely mothers of servants of Allah, the future supporters of our imam.

Unfortunately those women are very few to find.

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On 8/11/2020 at 8:21 PM, AkhiraisReal said:

A man can't give life. Woman give life. How come someone of a higher position can come from someone of a lower position, if what your family members said is true, which is not.

Woman are not lower than men, in fact the opposite could be more correct, if the women would truly see themselves and their potential. Namely mothers of servants of Allah, the future supporters of our imam.

Unfortunately those women are very few to find.

true and he also said that our thinking and processing ability is way lower than theirs

On 8/11/2020 at 5:18 PM, Ali_Hussain said:

It is also narrated in some form by Ibn Maja and Ahmad bin Hanbal, both authenticated by al-Albani

https://islamqa.info/amp/ar/answers/223712

We have a few roots to similar narrations as well, there are two in Basa'ir al-Darajat

محمد بن الحسن الصفار في (بصائر الدرجات) عن أحمد بن موسى عن الحسن بن موسى الخشاب عن علي بن حسان عن عبد الرحمن بن كثير عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يوما قاعدا في أصحابه إذ مر به بعير فجاء حتى ضرب بجرانه الأرض ورغا فقال رجل: يا رسول الله أسجد لك هذا البعير فنحن أحق أن نفعل؟ قال فقال لا بل اسجدوا لله ثم قال لو أمرت أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها الحديث.


سعد بن عبد الله في (بصائر الدرجات) عن الحسن بن موسى الخشاب مثله إلى قوله فقال لا بل اسجدوا لله إن هذا الجمل يشكو أربابه ثم ذكر قصة الجمل ثم قال وذكر أبو بصير أن عمر قال أنت تقول ذلك؟ فقال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) لو أمرت أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها الحديث. ورواه الكليني والصدوق كما يأتي في النكاح في حديث حسن عشرة المرأة مع زوجها.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1220_وسائل-الشيعة-الإسلامية-الحر-العاملي-ج-٤/الصفحة_374#top

i cant read this so does it mean that the hadeeth is authentic?

On 8/8/2020 at 5:29 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

My advice: ignore the jahil. You can’t argue with someone that dumb.

yea it was just a one time argument and im not gonna bring this up ever again cuz its very frustrating, on top of that when i make valid comparisons of the situation, he says that these things cant be compared

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On 8/12/2020 at 1:28 PM, AdinAnikas said:

i cant read this so does it mean that the hadeeth is authentic?

I'm not sure if it has a reliable chain of narration in our books, but it is quoted in books of fiqh to show that prostration is only allowed to Allah. So whilst it does show that the wife owes a lot of respect to her husband, it doesn't say what your relative is claiming.

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Just now, Ali_Hussain said:

I'm not sure if it has a reliable chain of narration in our books, but it is quoted in books of fiqh to show that prostration is only allowed to Allah. So whilst it does show that the wife owes a lot of respect to her husband, it doesn't say what your relative is claiming.

ohh thank god i thought it was saying that prostration could be done to your husband after God

so theres no authentic chain of hadeeth for the prostration to ur husband hadeeth right?

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30 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

of course not

Okay. Just making sure if he was a Sunni and had this view. 

Why does he want to torture you with the claims that you are inferior because you are a female? That is not polite. Islam asks of people to do good deeds. 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, AdinAnikas said:

ohh thank god i thought it was saying that prostration could be done to your husband after God

so theres no authentic chain of hadeeth for the prostration to ur husband hadeeth right?

That hadith doesn't even exist, your relative must have misheard the one we are talking about.

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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On 8/11/2020 at 1:07 PM, Abu Hadi said:

I have heard this hadith before also. Here is the hadith. It is from Sunan Ibn Dawud. 

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/95

Obviously, unless there is another source for this, there are alot of hadith in this collection that are problematic. Now, one thing is that this hadith does have an Isnad(chain of transmitters), but I am not an expert in this area, so if some brothers want to examine the Isnad and judge based on that. If someone can make a strong case that it is authentic, then we will have to deal with it. Until that point, I will reserve judgement on its authenticity. 

 

٦ ـ محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن محبوب ، عن مالك بن عطية ، عن سليمان بن خالد ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه‌السلام أن قوما أتوا رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله فقالوا يا رسول الله إنا رأينا أناسا يسجد بعضهم لبعض فقال رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله لو أمرت أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها.

الحديث السادس : صحيح.

Here you go, from al-Kafi. Authentic according to al-Majlisi.

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