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Ghadeer Khumm, I want a Sunni to give a legit reason why Abu Bakr was the "1st" Caliph

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Hasan Ibn Farhan al Maliki said that the Hadith that is most Mutawatir on the earth is the Hadith of Ghadeer Khumm.

So I want a Sunni to give me a legit reason of why you believe Abu Bakr was the "1st" Caliph

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i found these sources online which says Narrations regarding ghadeer from sunni books. just posting this so our sunni brothers and sisters can have a look.

 

 


Tafseer Durr al-Mansoor, Vol. 6, Pg. 383 - Online Link

 

وَأخرج ابْن مرْدَوَيْه عَن ابْن مَسْعُود قَالَ: كُنَّا نَقْرَأ على عهد رَسُول الله صلى الله عَلَيْهِ وَسلم {يَا أَيهَا الرَّسُول بلغ مَا أنزل إِلَيْك من رَبك} أَن عليا مولى الْمُؤمنِينَ {وَإِن لم تفعل فَمَا بلغت رسَالَته وَالله يَعْصِمك من النَّاس}

 


From Ibn Masood who said, 

 

"We used to recite in the times of the Prophet (S) like this, {"O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to You from Your Lord"}, 'That Ali is the Mawla (leader/chief) of the believers', {"If You do not do it then You have not Conveyed His message and Allah will protect You from the people" }(5:67)

 

Asbaab al-Nuzul, al-Wahidi, Pg. 150 - Online Link

 

 

From Abi Saeed al-Khudri, who said,

 

"The verse 'O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to You from Your Lord' (5:67) was revealed on the Day of Ghadeer Khum in regards to Ali ibn Abi Talib"

 

Tafseer-e-Kabeer, Vol. 12, Pg. 49 - Online Link

 

 

Under the verse 5:67, It says:

 

Tenth: "This verse was revealed in the merit of Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). When this verse was revealed, Prophet Mohammad (saww) took the hand of Ali (عليه السلام) and said, 'WHOEVER I AM HIS MASTER, ALI IS HIS MASTER. O Allah! Love those who love him. Be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

 


Tafseer Gharaib al-Quran Wa Ragaib al-Furqan - al-Nesapoori, Vol. 2, Pg. 616 - Online Link

 

From Abi Saeed al-Khudri, who said,

 

This verse was revealed in the merit of Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). When this verse was revealed, Prophet Mohammad (saww) took the hand of Ali (عليه السلام) and said, 'WHOEVER I AM HIS MASTER, ALI IS HIS MASTER. O Allah! Love those who love him. Be hostile to those who are hostile to him."


Umar then said, "Congratulation to you to son of Abi Talib, You have become my Maula and the Maula of all the believers male and female".

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I am a hanafi Sunni. Let's say Ali (رضي الله عنه) was supposed to be the Caliph. I find no kufr in criticising the Sahaba, so lets say Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) did usurp the Caliphate and withhold the land that belonged to Fatima (رضي الله عنه). And Muawiya and his spawn did try to eradicate the Fatimids. What difference does it make now in 2020? I believe the Jafari and Zaidi madhabs are top notch madhabs (i especially like Jafari ijtihad). The Saudi bandits cant live forever and takfiris are a dying breed. How is drudging up the 150 years after our Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) left us helping us out today? Honest question and i come with an open mind because i want to have my views changed by a compelling argument.

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1 hour ago, Guest Sunni Delight said:

Honest question and i come with an open mind because i want to have my views changed by a compelling argument.

Yes this happened 1300 years ago, but this is something about Haqq and Batil. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Surat al Maidah, Ayah 67,

5_67.png

"O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people."

Now let's see what Sunni sources say this was reaveled so the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the successor after him.

Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67, v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali.

 Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of Atiyyah and Abu Sa’id al Khudri.

 Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authorities Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

 al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

 Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

 Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

 Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

 al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

 Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

and many more such as Ibn Mardawayh

Now we know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordered the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

 And it was part of the Prophets message, so believing that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the successor of Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is part of the religion not just an opinion.

And remember Hadith al Thaqalayn that I talked about in another one of my posted topics.

Let's look at some books that say that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves? ”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), ‘Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

ألَسْتُ أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم؟ قالوا بلى يارسول الله. قال: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه. اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه.

 Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
 Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
 Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
 al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
 Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
 Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
 Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
 Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
 Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
 al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
 Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
 Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
 Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
 Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
 al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
 Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
 Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
 Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
 al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn”(‘Ali), v2, p462
 Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
 al-Mirqat, v5, p568
 al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
 Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
 Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217

 

Here is more proof that the Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is part of the religion of Islam. The Quran says in Surat al Maidah, Ayah 3,

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."

Let's see look at some Sunni books that say this came down after Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was appointed by Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19
History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75
al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13
Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80
al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213
Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115
Nuzul al-Qur’an, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym narrated on the authority Abu Sa’id Khudri.

The religion of Islam was completed through the Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

Inshallah this will led you to the truth.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Guest Sunni Delight said:

I am a hanafi Sunni. Let's say Ali (رضي الله عنه) was supposed to be the Caliph. I find no kufr in criticising the Sahaba, so lets say Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) did usurp the Caliphate and withhold the land that belonged to Fatima (رضي الله عنه). And Muawiya and his spawn did try to eradicate the Fatimids. What difference does it make now in 2020? I believe the Jafari and Zaidi madhabs are top notch madhabs (i especially like Jafari ijtihad). The Saudi bandits cant live forever and takfiris are a dying breed. How is drudging up the 150 years after our Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) left us helping us out today? Honest question and i come with an open mind because i want to have my views changed by a compelling argument.

It may not help 'us', but it may help you. It also may help individual brothers and sisters. You have no idea how much...I wish you did.

In the famous hadith accepted universally by Muslim (Sunni and Shia) Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) said, 'Whoever dies without knowing the Imam (Caliph) of his time, dies the death of Jahiliyya(the time of ignorance that preceeded Islam)'

Do you want to die the death of Jahiliyya ? Probably not. So a better question would be that who is the "Imam of your time" for Sunnis ? It is not Abu Bakr, Umar, etc. They passed away along time ago. So who is it ? Erdogan, ibn Al Saud ? You even admitted it isn't. 

That is how it can help you. If you accept the Wilayat of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), then naturally you will accept the Wali of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), Imam Hassan Al Mujtaba((عليه السلام)), then his Wali, Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)), down the line till we get to the real Imam of Our Time, Al Qaim, Al Hujjat, the one whom Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) said that 'Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will not bring about end of this world until a man from my lineage rises to fill the world with Equity and Justice whereas before it had been filled with injustice and corruption'. If you accept him as your Imam, you will not die the death of Jahiliyya. Maybe you cannot save the world. At least you can save yourself from dying this kind of death. 

 

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@Abu Hadi

Quran and Ahlulbayt is not only the more authentic hadith but its simpler, we know who our Imams are, I don't know about the Sunnis with someone every 2 seconds saying they are the next Caliph

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22 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

@Abu Hadi

Quran and Ahlulbayt is not only the more authentic hadith but its simpler, we know who our Imams are, I don't know about the Sunnis with someone every 2 seconds saying they are the next Caliph

I would say on a positive note that the only thing that is keeping our Sunni brothers and sisters in confusion regarding the issue of Wilayat and Imamate is that the authentic hadith and seerat of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) is being deliberately kept from them by the so callled 'leaders' of Sunni Islam today. If they knew, even a little, about the lives and hadith of Imams like Imam Hassan((عليه السلام)), Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)), they would quickly realize that these are the true sucessors, Wali of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). There would not be a shred of doubt in their mind. It is a tragedy above all tragedies that this information is being kept from them. 

I would also add, for the Hanafi brother, maybe he doesn't know this, Abu Hanifa was the student of Imam Jafar Sadiq((عليه السلام)), the grandson of Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)). So who would you rather follow, the student or the teacher ? 

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Thanks for your answer. The Shia have hundreds of years of hadith science to prove Ali (رضي الله عنه) was the appointed caliph and the sunni have hundreds of hadith science to prove he wasnt. I know about the pen and paper, ghadr, two weighty things and many other SUNNI hadith which point to Ali's right on the caliphate. I also know about the "one gives alms whilst he bows" surah, the purification surah which are pretty clear about the Ahl-al-Bayt. Most sunni believe Ali is the Wali and a rightful Caliph of Islam and Successor (we care less about the order of his succession) and we love him probably more than anyone else apart from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). And yes we Sunni dont know diddly squat about Muawiya and Yazid. We Sunni just hear the word "sahaba" and we jump up with our AK47s ready to fight to the death. I GUARANTEE YOU that most sunni do not know that Aisha (رضي الله عنه) fought Ali in a battle. I've been threatened by mentioning that to a group of "brudders" once in London.

BUT i find it extremely troublesome that you have to rely on the memory of men, often compiled and edited centuries later for a really important issue like Imams. OR you have to really look at a surah in a certain way to pick out the bits about Imams (whereas Sunni scholars all say it isnt about Imams - not saying i agree with them). The surah about the "people of the cloak" - BLATANTLY talking about the Panjtan - the arabic changes from "you" (feminine plural) to "you" (masculine plural) - its blatantly talking about (MAFHH). You have to be an idiot to not see that. Sunni scholars that say its talking about the Wives of the Prophet are obviously incorrect. When Ali was in sujood and gave alms - that surah is blatantly about Ali. But the rest......i dunno man. Its too much mental gymnastics to connect a surah to the Imams issue.

My main point is: its happened. It was awful what happened in general. As a Sunni (and most sunnis in general that i know) if Ali was the first Caliph - Alhamdulillah! If Abu Bakr was the first caliph - Alhamdulilah!. It was Allah;s will that won in the end (as it always does). Did Uthman favour his relatives which led to the Ummayads reigning in terror? Probably maybe. But does it really matter now in 2020?

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Don't forget the Ayah of Wilayah,

5_55.png

"Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, who does Prayer and Zakat while they are bowing."

The following Ulema of Ahl’ul Sunnah have confirmed that the declaration of Ali’s wilayat followed this verse:

The following Ulema of Ahl’ul Sunnah have confirmed that the declaration of Ali’s wilayat followed this verse:

Tafseer Mazhari by Thanaullah Panee Pathee Volume 3 page 143

Tafseer Kabeer Volume 3 page 472 narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn Azib, and Muhammad Ibn Ali.

Tafseer Fathul Qadheer Volume 2 page 57 by Shaukhani

Tafseer Durre Manthur under the commentary of verse 5:67

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If you would like clarification or more detail on the Ayat of Wilayat (those who give alms while they are in ruku')  or Hadith Al Kisa, I'm sure there are many brothers here who can give you this info. There have been entire books written about these subjects. There is no mental gymnastics. The truth doesn't involve mental gymnastics. If something is the truth, it is obvious, otherwise Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wouldn't hold us accountable without giving us something that is clear and obvoius, because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Just. At the same time, you need to have the courage to pursue the truth, wherever it may be, and even if it makes you uncomfortable or goes against what your parents taught you. 

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30 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

 

In the famous hadith accepted universally by Muslim (Sunni and Shia) Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) said, 'Whoever dies without knowing the Imam (Caliph) of his time, dies the death of Jahiliyya(the time of ignorance that preceeded Islam)'

Do you want to die the death of Jahiliyya ? Probably not. So a better question would be that who is the "Imam of your time" for Sunnis ? It is not Abu Bakr, Umar, etc. They passed away along time ago. So who is it ? Erdogan, ibn Al Saud ? You even admitted it isn't. 

That is how it can help you. If you accept the Wilayat of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), then naturally you will accept the Wali of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), Imam Hassan Al Mujtaba((عليه السلام)), then his Wali, Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)), down the line till we get to the real Imam of Our Time, Al Qaim, Al Hujjat, the one whom Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) said that 'Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will not bring about end of this world until a man from my lineage rises to fill the world with Equity and Justice whereas before it had been filled with injustice and corruption'. If you accept him as your Imam, you will not die the death of Jahiliyya. Maybe you cannot save the world. At least you can save yourself from dying this kind of death. 

 

I am a beginner so i want to be educated. Just to be clear, i have to rely on the memories of men and the compilation of men and the editing of men to prevent dieing in a state of jahilliyah? I have to rely on men remembering that hadith, and that hadith to be compiled in a book and that book to be published, and then book to survive to to prevent such a death. No promise did Allah make about hadith, its truth, or its survival, As opposed to the Quran.

Dont get me wrong, i need hadith. I am so thankful for hadith. But why would such a MASSIVELY important issue - an issue that will potentially send me to hell - rely on hadith scholars - who often hated each other and called each other kafir? Why doesnt the Quran clearly tell me - a stupid and unlearned man - "you have to believe in the 12 imams". I am stupid and almost illiterate YET i pretty much understand all the big things to do or things to stay away from - just by reading my Quran. Why isnt this Imam issue jumping out at me if its so important?

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5 minutes ago, Sunni Delight said:

Did Uthman favour his relatives which led to the Ummayads reigning in terror? Probably maybe. But does it really matter now in 2020?

He was the one who gave the Umayyads power. It does matter in 2020. Why? It lead to the killing of Imam al Husayn (عليه السلام).

We see that Ziayrat Warith it says,

وَلَعَنَ ٱللَّهُ امَّةً سَمِعَتْ بِذٰلِكَ فَرَضِيَتْ بِهِ

"May Allah curse the people who heard of this (Oppression of Imam al Husayn and the Killing) and accepted it." 

So if Imam al Husayn were to be alive in 2020 and the Battle of Karbala happened again, who's side would you have been on, on the 10th of Muharam?

This is a Heaven and Hell choice.

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12 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Don't forget the Ayah of Wilayah,

5_55.png

"Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, who does Prayer and Zakat while they are bowing."

 

Thank you brother. Its ok, you dont need to mention Sunni scholars that agree with the intepretation, its obviously about Ali (رضي الله عنه), Most Sunnis already believe that Ali was our wali, most sunnis who deny this (which i strongly believe is a modern thing of the last 100 years) is because they are ignorant and the Saudis have been pumping money into mosques everywhere. Do you have any more surahs like this please?

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22 minutes ago, Sunni Delight said:

I am a beginner so i want to be educated. Just to be clear, i have to rely on the memories of men and the compilation of men and the editing of men to prevent dieing in a state of jahilliyah? I have to rely on men remembering that hadith, and that hadith to be compiled in a book and that book to be published, and then book to survive to to prevent such a death. No promise did Allah make about hadith, its truth, or its survival, As opposed to the Quran.

Dont get me wrong, i need hadith. I am so thankful for hadith. But why would such a MASSIVELY important issue - an issue that will potentially send me to hell - rely on hadith scholars - who often hated each other and called each other kafir? Why doesnt the Quran clearly tell me - a stupid and unlearned man - "you have to believe in the 12 imams". I am stupid and almost illiterate YET i pretty much understand all the big things to do or things to stay away from - just by reading my Quran. Why isnt this Imam issue jumping out at me if its so important?

You don't have to believe all hadith or even most hadith, but you have to believe the obvious hadith. The most obvious one is as follows. The Hadith related to the incident of Ghair Khum is considered Mutawattir by both Sunni and Shia Mufasireen. If you are not familiar with the term Mutawatir (a term used to grade hadith), it means basically that it was transmitted simultaneously by so many different narrators, in basically the same words, that it is impossible that it was forged or fabricated. Sunni and Shia agree that Ghadir Khum happened, and that Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) gave a Khutba(religious speech) in which he state 'Of whomever I am his Wali, Ali is his Wali'. This part of the speech was transmitted by more than 100 mufasereen in those word (if you want the exact words, in Arabic, not the translation, I included these on another thread that is recent so probably just look ^ for this). The only difference between muslims on this is the meaning of the word 'Wali' in this context. Again, we just created another thread about this ^. 

Also, the Ayat of Wiliayat. Without going into too many details here, because I don't want to overwhelm you, this Ayat is stating that Leadership is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and those who give Zakat WHILE they are in the state of Ruku. At the time this ayat was revealed, there was only one person who ever gave Zakat WHILE he was doing Ruku. That was Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). So the Ayat is saying your Leaders are ONLY Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), and Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). If you accept the Wilayat and Leadership of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), that's all you need to do(because as a Muslim, you already accept the leadership of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h)), since Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) himself was crystal clear about who the leader was after him, Imam Hassan((عليه السلام)) and Imam Hassan was crystal clear about who the leader was after him Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)), etc. No mental gymnastics, just accepting the obvious. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

He was the one who gave the Umayyads power. It does matter in 2020. Why? It lead to the killing of Imam al Husayn (عليه السلام).

We see that Ziayrat Warith it says,

وَلَعَنَ ٱللَّهُ امَّةً سَمِعَتْ بِذٰلِكَ فَرَضِيَتْ بِهِ

"May Allah curse the people who heard of this (Oppression of Imam al Husayn and the Killing) and accepted it." 

So if Imam al Husayn were to be alive in 2020 and the Battle of Karbala happened again, who's side would you have been on, on the 10th of Muharam?

This is a Heaven and Hell choice.

Hopefully Allah would give me the courage to stand by Husayn (رضي الله عنه). I dont care who the opposition was, the youngest under the Cloak in the Quran HAS to be my choice. But you do you see my method of deduction? Its in the Quran. Its indisputable. I MEAN NO OFFENSE BY THIS BUT HEAR ME OUT: i value the Ziayrat Warith as much as I value Sahih Bukhari when it comes to historical discussion about the Ahl-Al-Bayt and Sahaba. All hadith have value, but its useless in this discussion. Do you see what i mean? Hadith vs hadith vs hadith about the political situation at that time is pretty much useless 1300 years later. Maybe i am not making myself clear.

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3 hours ago, Guest Sunni Delight said:

What difference does it make now in 2020?

It's most relevant in 2020, more so than ever before. All the problems the muslims are facing today is due to usurping the rights of Ahlul bait. The disunity we see today, oppression from dictators within muslim world and domination/humiliation from outside (zionists, imperialists), are all from abandoning the Imams. Not to mention the Ahlul bait represent the authority of Allah, and the society developed by them would be immeasurably more advanced that what we have today. However, now, this will only occur after the return of Imam Mahdi. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Sunni Delight said:

Why doesnt the Quran clearly tell me - a stupid and unlearned man - "you have to believe in the 12 imams"

Because if it did say so and it said the names of the Imams we must follow than people, like Banu Ummayah, will try to take that piece of the Quran out. 

Edited by Ansur Shiat Ali
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7 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

You don't have to believe all hadith or even most hadith, but you have to believe the obvious hadith. The most obvious one is as follows. The Hadith related to the incident of Ghair Khum is considered Mutawattir by both Sunni and Shia Mufasireen. If you are not familiar with the term Mutawatir (a term used to grade hadith), it means basically that it was transmitted simultaneously by so many different narrators, in basically the same words, that it is impossible that it was forged or fabricated. Sunni and Shia agree that Ghadir Khum happened, and that Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) have a Khutba(religious speech) in which he state 'Of whomever I am his Wali, Ali is his Wali'. This part of the speech was transmitted by more than 100 mufasereen in those word (if you want the exact words, in Arabic, not the translation, I included these on another thread that is recent so probably just look ^ for this). The only difference between muslims on this is the meaning of the word 'Wali' in this context. Again, we just created another thread about this ^. 

Also, the Ayat of Wiliayat. Without going into too many details here, because I don't want to overwhelm you, this Ayat is stating that Leadership is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and those who give Zakat WHILE they are in the state of Ruku. At the time this ayat was revealed, there was only one person who ever gave Zakat WHILE he was doing Ruku. That was Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). So the Ayat is saying your Leaders are ONLY Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), and Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). If you accept the Wilayat and Leadership of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), that's all you need to do, since Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) himself was crystal clear about who the leader was after him, Imam Hassan((عليه السلام)) and Imam Hassan was crystal clear about who the leader was after him Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)), etc. No mental gymnastics, just accepting the obvious. 

 

Thank you for your post. As i have said in my above post, there is no disputing the surah concerning Ali. Dont worry, i understand mutawattir and basic hadith science. I think its indisputable that the hadith of the Pond is true beyond doubt. Again as i said, most sunnis i know believe Ali was the Wali. And history is clear that Ali was (eventually) the Leader of Islam/Caliph and most Sunnis acknowledge, accept and love that fact. Then Muwawiyah and co came along. My original question was those things happened for good or worse (for worse probably), but why is still so important to my islam today? I have to believe in the 12 Imams? Not 7. Not 5. I can get on board with that. I wish the 12 Imams were our leaders instead of the Umayyads. Does that make me Shia? Probably not.

OK here is the bit i might get banned for: i dont believe our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was infallible. Therefore i dont believe the 12 Imams are infallible. I've made another thread about this issue in this forum section.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Sunni Delight said:

Thank you for your post. As i have said in my above post, there is no disputing the surah concerning Ali. Dont worry, i understand mutawattir and basic hadith science. I think its indisputable that the hadith of the Pond is true beyond doubt. Again as i said, most sunnis i know believe Ali was the Wali. And history is clear that Ali was (eventually) the Leader of Islam/Caliph and most Sunnis acknowledge, accept and love that fact. Then Muwawiyah and co came along. My original question was those things happened for good or worse (for worse probably), but why is still so important to my islam today? I have to believe in the 12 Imams? Not 7. Not 5. I can get on board with that. I wish the 12 Imams were our leaders instead of the Umayyads. Does that make me Shia? Probably not.

OK here is the bit i might get banned for: i dont believe our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was infallible. Therefore i dont believe the 12 Imams are infallible. I've made another thread about this issue in this forum section.

If you accept Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) as your Imam, then you must accept the Imam that Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) himself stated is the Imam after him, i.e .Imam Hassan((عليه السلام))

If you accept Imam Hassan((عليه السلام)), next, next, next, next, etc. then you are Shia. Plain and simple

 

The 5, Zaidis, are the ones who said , 'The Imam is the one who rises with the sword'. So they took Zaid, son of Imam Zain Al Abedeen((عليه السلام)) as their Imam. Yet, Zaid(رضي الله عنه) recognized the Imamate of his brother, Imam Baqir((عليه السلام)), and never claimed to be the Imam, but he said he was only a Mujahid, and he asked his brother's permission to do jihad, again verifying that he recognized his brother was the Imam. His brother gave him the permission but told him he wouldn't be successful. Shia(twelvers) love and respect Zaid, son of Imam Zain Al Abedeen((عليه السلام)) and believe he died on Haqq. We also love and respect our Zaidi brothers and sisters. 

The Seven ' ers are a little more complicated. I will explain this if you wish. 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

If you accept Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) as your Imam, then you must accept the Imam that Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) himself stated is the Imam after him, i.e .Imam Hassan((عليه السلام))

If you accept Imam Hassan((عليه السلام)), next, next, next, next, etc. then you are Shia. Plain and simple

Exactly what he said. Because not only Ghadir Khumm matters, but also Hadith al Thaqalayn, Book of Allah and Ahlulbayt, they will never separate. 

Ahlulbayt just isn't Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but his sons and their sons. Don't forget their Truthful Mother Al Zahra.

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10 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

That talk about Ahlulbayt?

Yes please. Whats my point? Why do i want this? Is it to annoy you? Waste your time? I'll try to be clear brother. I love the Quran. I like reading it in English with lots of tafsir by different (ok yes Sunni scholars lol - you got me!), some tafsir seem ok, some are a bit weird (ibn Kathir) some really hate women lol (looking at you Mawdudi). some are pretty "woke" (Khan)

 

I am no Quran Scholar - i am not even an amateur - but what jumps out at me is TAWHEED. Everywhere i read its tawheed this, oneness of Allah that, I GET IT with the no partners. Its rammed down my throat almost every surah. Other things are rammed down my throat: the recognition of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), belief in the Last Day, Zakat (always with the Zakat - how rich does Allah think i am?). Angels are everywhere. The justice of Allah, the promises he makes. Its constant. Sawm/fasting  is less obvious as is Hajj, but its clear about it. Even though i am thick and stupid, i get it. I feel it. I see where the Big Guy upstairs is coming from. I'm onboard. But this Imam thing. I aint seeing it. I aint feeling it..But if what you are saying is true, i want to feel it, i HAVE to see it.

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13 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Because I it did say so and it said the names of the Imams we must follow than people, like Banu Ummayah, will try to take that piece of the Quran out. 

OK hold on a second.....are you saying the Quran i read,....is not the REAL Quran. I need to be clear about what you are saying. Also,if this IS what your saying, is your view representative of Twelvers?

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2 minutes ago, Sunni Delight said:

OK hold on a second.....are you saying the Quran i read,....is not the REAL Quran. I need to be clear about what you are saying. Also,if this IS what your saying, is your view representative of Twelvers?

No its the real Quran, I'm saying the reason Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) didn't mention the name in order for the Quran isn't changed by anyone.

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(33:33)

The first part talks about the wives, I'll talk about the important part.

33_33.png

"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household (Ahlulbayt), and to purify you with [extensive] purification."

Next verse I'll talk the important part,

42_23.png

"Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only Mawadah of my kinship."

What is Mawadah? Mawadah is to love and follow. Who? The Qurba/Kinship of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Sunni Delight said:

Do you see what i mean? Hadith vs hadith vs hadith about the political situation at that time is pretty much useless 1300 years later. Maybe i am not making myself clear.

Salalm , It's a common confusion that you can see between  both young generations of Sunni & Shia Muslims because past generations were following  anything  without questioning  that Sunni side is most firm about not learning & arguing about this matter because  young & wise  people  always find flaws in sunni fundamentals by learning & arguing about history of Islam because it shows that who were right in past & follow right way now & future belongs to which group that even we don't  want to learn about our past but it shaped our principals  that we are following it now & it will shape our future .

about Zakat you can see below thread.

Quote

The Future Belongs to the Shi‘ism

By: Dr. Isam al-Imad

Another promising piece of news comes from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Rahman Maghrawi, a Wahhabi author, who says, “I fear the spread of the Shi‘ism among the Western youths.”5
Yet another author, Majdi Muhammad ‘Ali Muhammad, reports the following: “A Sunni youth, overwhelmed by doubt and uncertainty, came to see me. He was bewildered by the Shi‘ah ideas that had been passed on to him…”6

http://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=13178

9 hours ago, Sunni Delight said:

I am no Quran Scholar - i am not even an amateur - but what jumps out at me is TAWHEED. Everywhere i read its tawheed this, oneness of Allah that, I GET IT with the no partners. Its rammed down my throat almost every surah. Other things are rammed down my throat: the recognition of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), belief in the Last Day, Zakat (always with the Zakat - how rich does Allah think i am?). Angels are everywhere. The justice of Allah, the promises he makes. Its constant. Sawm/fasting  is less obvious as is Hajj, but its clear about it. Even though i am thick and stupid, i get it. I feel it. I see where the Big Guy upstairs is coming from. I'm onboard. But this Imam thing. I aint seeing it. I aint feeling it..But if what you are saying is true, i want to feel it, i HAVE to see it.

 Shias have different viewpoint  about definition some matters like Zakat than Sunni viewpoint  anyway I recmmend  reading of " A Strife-free Dialogue (A Step towards Understanding) by Isam al-Imad " that although  it's written  for convincing  of Wahabists  about Shia Islam but it's also for any seeker of truth from Sunni & Shia world because his book based more on rationalism than hadiths  although  he was a wahabi  expert in field of hadith that had a great  project to write a book against  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Shia muslims but when he started his research for writing of his book when he collected all resources  from KSA  resources he find a rare book from a sunni writer about Shia Islam that many wahabi  writers were writing  books against it but original  book was banned by KSA but by his special access to banned books he could  read the book that by his unbiased analyzing  of book he find ot truth & converted to Shia Islam that until now wahabists  accuse him that he was a Zaidi because  of origin of his family but they can't  deny his high degree & position  in KSA  univrsities as a top notch specialist  in field of hadith from universities  of KSA.

Quote

This book aims to establish a suitable method of communication with Wahhabis to familiarize them with Shi‘ism, and to prepare a proper ground for their conversion to the school of thought of the Household of the Prophet, peace be upon them.

https://www.al-islam.org/strife-free-dialogue-step-towards-understanding-isam-al-imad

https://www.bookdepository.com/Step-Towards-Understanding-Dr-Isam-Al-Imad/9781542321143

https://www.ghbook.ir/index.php?option=com_dbook&task=viewbook&book_id=15867&Itemid=167&lang=fa

https://www.ghbook.ir/index.php?name=A Strife-free Dialogue (A Step towards Understanding)&option=com_dbook&task=readonline&book_id=15867&page=1&chkhashk=26D1286D5E&Itemid=218&lang=fa&tmpl=component

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33909312-a-step-towards-understanding

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Guest Sunni Delight said:

so lets say Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) did usurp the Caliphate and withhold the land that belonged to Fatima (رضي الله عنه)

 

13 hours ago, Guest Sunni Delight said:

What difference does it make now in 2020?

A big difference.

1. About Abu baker, 

Narrated ‘Aisha: (mother of believers) after the death Allah’s Apostle Fatimah the daughter of Allah’s apostle asked Abu Baker As-siddiq to giver her, her share of inheritance from what Allah’s apostle has left of the Fai (I.e booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu baker said to her, “Allah’s apostle said, ‘Our Property will not be inherited, whatever we(i.e Prophets) leave is sadaqa (to be used for charity).”

Fatimah, the daughter of Allah’s apostle got angry and stopped speaking to abu baker, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah’s apostle. 

Sunni references:

Sahih bukhari, v4, Book 53,No.325

abu baker claimed, “Allah’s apostle said, ‘Our Property will not be inherited, whatever we(i.e Prophets) leave is sadaqa (to be used for charity).”

now this contradicts the Quran

Surah Maryam Ayat no 2 to 6 Allah says,

“A mention of the mercy of your Lord to His servant Zakariyya. When he called upon his Lord in a low voice. He said, My Lord surely my bones are weakened and my head fares with hoariness and my Lord! I have never been unsuccessful in my prayer to Thee.

And surely I fear my cousins after me, and my wife is barren, therefore grant me from Thyself an heir. Who should inherit me and inherit from the children of Ya‘qub, and make him, my Lord, one in Whom Thou art well pleased.


O Zakariyya! Surely we give you good news of a boy whose name shall be Yahya; we have not made before anyone his equal.

He said, O my Lord! when shall I have a son, and my wife is barren, and I myself have reached extreme old age?

He said, So shall it be; your Lord says; It is easy to Me, and indeed I created you before when you were nothing. (19:7-9)

Abu Bakr has attributed a false saying to the prophet. Not only that but has made Fatima angry, the prophet had made it clear about the one who angers Fatima.

Allah’s apostle said, “Fatimah is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry” 

Sunni references:

Sahih bukhari, vol5, Book 57, No.61

the prophet (sawas) has told Fatima about a few events that will happen to her before they would happen but secretly. 

Narrated `Aisha: Once Fatima came walking and her gait resembled the gait of the Prophet (ﷺ) . The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Welcome, O my daughter!" Then he made her sit on his right or on his left side, and then he told her a secret and she started weeping. I asked her, "Why are you weeping?" He again told her a secret and she started laughing. I said, "I never saw happiness so near to sadness as I saw today." I asked her what the Prophet (ﷺ) had told her. She said, "I would never disclose the secret of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)." When the Prophet (ﷺ) died, I asked her about it. She replied. "The Prophet (ﷺ) said: 'Every year Gabriel used to revise the Qur'an with me once only, but this year he has done so twice. I think this portends my death, and you will be the first of my family to follow me.' So I started weeping. Then he said. 'Don't you like to be the chief of all the ladies of Paradise or the chief of the believing women? So I laughed for that."

Sunni references: Sahih Bukhari, book 61, hadith 129.

Sura al-Ahzab 33:57

Indeed those who torment Allah and His apostle are cursed by Allah in this world and the hereafter, He has prepared a humiliating punishment for them. 
 

You do math on this one. 

now about the caliphate, it does make a difference, the prophet before he had appointed imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) he has made it clear  long ago that Ali would be the caliph of every believer after him and also made that clear in an analogy aswell. Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) knew the Sunnah of the prophet very well like nobody else and also the interpretation of the Quran and the prophets life and has taught it to his children Hassan and Hussain which they passed one to their offspring.  Hence why the prophet says that the he is the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate...
 

The Messenger of Allah said: “ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is it’s Gate. So whoever  intends to enter the city and the wisdom, he should enter from its gate

Sunni references:

-sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp201,637

-al-mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp126,127,226

-Fadh’il al-sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal,v2 p635 tradition 1081


And hence why in ghadir khumm after appointing imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) as successor he then says, 

...I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (hussain) said to zaid: who are the members of his household? Aren’t his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the member of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: who are they? Thereupon he said: Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil and the offspring of Jafar and the offspring of Abbas. Hussain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: yes 

Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim 2408,Book 31, Hadith 5920

In another narrations,

Zaid ibn. thabit, he said: “The Messenger of Allah said: I am leaving with you two Caliphs, the book of Allah; the rope between the heavens and the earth and my offspring, my Ahlulbayt. They will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of kawther)”

[“The chain is hassan(reliable)”]

Sunni references:

Book: Musnad Ahmad Ibn hanbal, verified and commented(footnotes) by Hamza Ahmad al-zain, volume 16, page 28.

 

The Messenger of Allah said:”I am leaving with you two CALIPHS, Allah’s Book, a rope between the heavens and the earth and my offspring, my Ahlulbayt. They will

Not separate until they meet me at the pond (of kawther)”

[“the documentation is Sahih(authentic)”]

Sunni: references 

Book: Sahih of Al-jami’i Al Sagheer for the scholar Al-Albani, volume 1, page 482, Hadith number 2457.

if the prophet didn’t make clear who to go to for his teachings then every one can make excuses and fabrications not only that but go to the wrong gate to learn the interpretation of the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. So the prophet has made it clear to the people who to hold on to and who is his successor after him. 
 

Now the prophet (s) has already made it clear before ghadir khumm that imam Ali would be the caliph of every believer after him.

“The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: Your position to me is like that of Harun to Musa except that there will be no prophet after me, and that you are the caliph of every believer after me.

[“The chain of narrators is Hassan(reliable) and the narrators are trustworthy and they are the narrators of the two sheiks”]

Sunni references:

Book: Al-sunnah by Ibn Abi As’asim Al-shaibani (287AH). Investigated by Al-Albani. Page 560, Hadith 1188

 

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali:”Your position to me is like that of Harun and to musa except there will be no prophet after me, and that your are the Caliph of every believer after me.”

[“The chain of narrators is hassan(reliable) and the narrators are the narrators of the two sheiks”]

Sunni references:

Book: Al-Sunnah by Imam abi baker Ahmed ibn Abi A’asim(287AH). Investigated by Dr al-Jawabra, professor of Hadith at Imam Muhammad Ibn su’ood University, Al-sumai’y institution. Volume 2, page 799.

 

when the prophet appointed imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) 

16 hours ago, randomly curious said:

Tafseer-e-Kabeer, Vol. 12, Pg. 49 - Online Link

 

 

Under the verse 5:67, It says:

 

Tenth: "This verse was revealed in the merit of Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). When this verse was revealed, Prophet Mohammad (saww) took the hand of Ali (عليه السلام) and said, 'WHOEVER I AM HIS MASTER, ALI IS HIS MASTER. O Allah! Love those who love him. Be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

 


Tafseer Gharaib al-Quran Wa Ragaib al-Furqan - al-Nesapoori, Vol. 2, Pg. 616 - Online Link

 

From Abi Saeed al-Khudri, who said,

 

This verse was revealed in the merit of Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). When this verse was revealed, Prophet Mohammad (saww) took the hand of Ali (عليه السلام) and said, 'WHOEVER I AM HIS MASTER, ALI IS HIS MASTER. O Allah! Love those who love him. Be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

The three, Othman, Omar and Abu baker were present. and it’s recorded, 

After Ghadir Khumm Prophet Muhammad (s) asked everybody to give the oath of allegiance to ‘Ali  and congratulate him. Among those who gave him the oath were Umar,Abu baker and Othman. It is narrated that Umar and Abu baker said: “well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader(Mawla) of all believing men and women” 

Sunni references: 

1-Musnad Ahmad Ibn hanbal, v4, p281

2-Tasfir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp49-50

3-Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi,P.557

4-Habib al-Siyar, by Mir khand, v1, part3, p144

5-Tarikh, by Khatib al-baghdadi, v8, pp290, 596 from Abu hurayra

Again Abu baker transgressors because the prophet says. 
 

Narrated Abu huraira: 

Allah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: “whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah, and whoever obeys the ruler I appoint, obeys me, whoever disobeys him, disobeys me”

Sunni references:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 89, Hadith 251


The prophet did prophecies about future skirmishes which the prophet said to imam Ali,

al-Hakim recorded that Anas Ibn Malik narrated that the Holy Prophet said to ‘Ali:

“You shall inform my nation about the truth and what they dispute after me":

Sunni reference:

• al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112, who wrote this is an authentic Hadith according to the stipulation of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim). (This would mean that the chain of narrators are considered to be authentic as stipulated by Bukhari and Muslim)

 

an example of that, 

Ali ((عليه السلام).) declared in a long speech to the six-member Shura set up by Umar:

I implore you for the sake of Allah, is there anyone among you to whom the Messenger of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) said ‘You are the distributor of Paradise and Hell, except me?

They replied: No.

Sunni references:

• Al-Sawaiq al-Muhriqah p 75

 

When Imam ‘Ali, during the time of his caliphate and decades after the event of Ghadir, said to Anas bin Malik, the Companion of the Prophet (s): “Why don’t you stand up and testify what you heard from the Messenger of Allah on the day of Ghadir?” He answered, “O Amir al-Muminin! I have grown old and do not remember.”

 Thereupon ‘Ali  said: “May Allah mark you with a white spot (of leprosy) unconcealable with your turban, if you are intentionally withholding the truth.” And before Anas got up from his place he bore a large white spot on his face.”

sunni reference:

• Ibn Qutaybah al-Dinawari, Kitab al-Ma’arif, (Cairo, 1353 AH), p. 251

• Ahmad bin Hanbal, al-Musnad, vol. 1, p. 119

• Abu Nu‘aym al-’Isfahani ,Hilyat al-Awliya’, (Beirut, 1988), vol. 5, p. 27

• Nur al-Din al-Halabi al-Shafi’i, al-Sirah al-Halabiyya, vol. 3, p. 336

• Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-’Ummal, (Halab, 1969-84), vol. 13, p. 131

 

this is the reason why the prophet says, 

The prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: “Ali is the gate of repentance, whoever entered therein was a believer and whoever went out was an unbeliever.”

Sunni references:

al-Darqunti and by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami in al-sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, ch.9, section 2, p193

 

this why it matters in 2020 and in all past and future generations. 

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10 hours ago, Sunni Delight said:

r: i dont believe our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was infallible. Therefore i dont believe the 12 Imams are infallible

Surah 53:1-4 makes it clear the prophet is infallible and Surah 33:33 makes it clear the Ahlulbayt are infallible. read Surah 10:35  and ponder over it.

Say, "Are there of your 'partners' any who guides to the truth?" Say, " Allah guides to the truth. So is He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed or he who guides not unless he is guided? Then what is [wrong] with you - how do you judge?"

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If I give an answer from the ahadith, it won't be acceptable for the shias. There can be various answers for this, like-
Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) was the one the Prophet was most close to. The Quran also mentions his sincere company with the messenger of Allah as "thaani ithnaen". Also, it was Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) who fought the apostates after the prophet had left this world. Also, as prophethood isn't kingship which should be passed on to only the family of the prophet.
Just to be clear, that I love Ali (رضي الله عنه) and all the family members of the prophet, but Alhamdulillah it doesn't make me overlook facts.

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11 hours ago, Guest (a trial user) said:

If I give an answer from the ahadith, it won't be acceptable for the shias. There can be various answers for this, like-
Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) was the one the Prophet was most close to. The Quran also mentions his sincere company with the messenger of Allah as "thaani ithnaen". Also, it was Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) who fought the apostates after the prophet had left this world. Also, as prophethood isn't kingship which should be passed on to only the family of the prophet.
Just to be clear, that I love Ali (رضي الله عنه) and all the family members of the prophet, but Alhamdulillah it doesn't make me overlook facts.

Ok, we are not talking about "one of the closest to the Prophet." I am talking about THE closest to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Look at how many books talk about Ghadir Khumm

Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
 Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
 Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
 al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
 Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
 Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
 Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
 Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
 Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
 al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
 Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
 Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
 Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
 Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
 al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
 Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
 Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
 Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
 al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn”(‘Ali), v2, p462
 Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
 al-Mirqat, v5, p568
 al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
 Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
 Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217

Now did you follow Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or Abu Bakr 1st?

Not only do we favor Ahlulbayt because they were the family of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), we favor them because they were the most pious out of everyone else.

The Caliphate/Imamate and leadership of Ahlulbayt didn't happen just because they were the family of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), its because none of the Sahabis were better than them.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Guest (a trial user) said:

If I give an answer from the ahadith, it won't be acceptable for the shias. There can be various answers for this, like-
Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) was the one the Prophet was most close to. 

Yusufali 3:61] If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned in Qur'an that the Prophet and Ali as "ourselves", and that is how close Ali to the Prophet.

When the wafat of the Prophethood occured one of the "ourselves" left, but the one live on to be ignored for 25 years.

If Ali (عليه السلام) was elected by the people, they will see the similarities and continuation of pure Islam to rule the ummah because Ali is the similar self to the Prophet.

And if all 12 Imams were elected to rule, muslims today will have better situation to serve Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and getting His Mercy as one ummah, and NOT divided ummah and oppressed by syaitanic forces.

Edited by layman
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On 8/8/2020 at 9:15 AM, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Hasan Ibn Farhan al Maliki said that the Hadith that is most Mutawatir on the earth is the Hadith of Ghadeer Khumm.

So I want a Sunni to give me a legit reason of why you believe Abu Bakr was the "1st" Caliph

This is what is called a "loaded question".

But if you want to discuss the issue of the succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم I invite you to participate in my thread which is dedicated purely to this topic

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/9/2020 at 6:33 AM, Guest (a trial user) said:

If I give an answer from the ahadith, it won't be acceptable for the shias. There can be various answers for this, like-
Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) was the one the Prophet was most close to. The Quran also mentions his sincere company with the messenger of Allah as "thaani ithnaen". Also, it was Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) who fought the apostates after the prophet had left this world. Also, as prophethood isn't kingship which should be passed on to only the family of the prophet.
Just to be clear, that I love Ali (رضي الله عنه) and all the family members of the prophet, but Alhamdulillah it doesn't make me overlook facts.

It shouldn't be acceptable to any muslim. 

'Abu Bakr was the one the was most close to' - Wrong. 

This can be proven false by a few facts which are not in dispute amoung Shia/Sunni. First,

 - Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) was raised by Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and grew up in his house since he was a young child, Abu Bakr never even knew of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) till he was middle aged.

- Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) married his daughter Fatima((عليه السلام)) to Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). Abu Bakr proposed to Rasoulallah(p.b.u.) to marry Fatima((عليه السلام)), and he was refused. 

-thani ithnaen'. i.e. the second of the two. 

First of all is ‘Thani Ithnain’ (the second of the two), secondly, ‘Le Saahebehi’ (for his companion), thirdly, ‘Laa Tahzan Inallah Maana’ (grieve not, surely Allah is with us), fourthly, ‘Sakanatahu Alaihe’ (tranquility upon him). Below, we shall discuss each of these portions in detail. First of all, regarding: “The second of the two”, Ahlul Sunnat say that the second of the two is Abu Bakr who is the second person after the Messenger of Allah (S) who is nominated for the fulfillment of religious responsibility after the Holy Prophet (S).

The Imamites say that the second of the two denotes the Holy Prophet (S) himself and not Abu Bakr and there is no indication of conferment of religious authority in the verse. The Almighty is complaining about those people who are not helpful to his Prophet (S). They are such that either they avoid Jihad or flee from the battlefield, instead of sacrificing their life. Abu Bakr himself was one of those who had fled the battlefield. Or there were such people, who could not help the Prophet in the battles of Badr, Uhud, Khandaq and Hunayn and they left him and ran away. Then the meaning of “second of the two” and the “third of the three” is “one of the two” and “one of the three.” Here the “second of the two” is that same “one of the two” who was one of the two people in the cave and who was comforting the other.

Apparently, this comforting one was the Holy Prophet (S) and not Abu Bakr. This portion of the verse in no way proves the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and it has no relation to Caliphate or rulership. Although there is no cure for religious obstinacy.

Second: ‘Le Saahebehi’ (for his companion): Ahlul Sunnat say that ‘Le Saahebehi’ (for his companion) has proved the companionship of Abu Bakr. The Imamites do not deny the companionship of Abu Bakr, but they say that companionship on its own is not something that deserves to be praised, if there is absence of belief or faith. Only that companion of the Holy Prophet (S) is deserving of honor, who has faith; and mere companionship is of no use.

What is the use of such a companion, who is denounced in the words of Allah? As Allah mentions about those companions who avoided Jihad or who were the first to flee the battle, leaving the Holy Prophet (S) in danger. Apparently, this verse does not even mention those characteristics of companionship that are generally accepted by the people. Here, companion means one who was with the Holy Prophet (S) in the cave, that is Abu Bakr. This is the apparent meaning of that companion. Apart from this, the Arabic word of Sahab is not a word whose use is limited to special people. It can be used for ordinary people also, as mentioned in Surah Yusuf:

From https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/verse-cave

 - Also, it was Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) who fought the apostates after the prophet had left this world

I'm kind of surprised at this one. Who was the one who fled the battlfield at Uhud ? Abu Bakr. Who was the one who stayed and defended Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) at Uhud ? Imam Ali((عليه السلام))

Who was the one who disobeyed Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) when he said 'Dispatch with the Army of Usama, Make haste and dispatch with the Army of Usama, May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) destroy anyone who does not dispatch with the Army of Usama' ? Abu Bakr. Who obeyed Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) in this case by staying behind, because Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) asked him to stay behind ? Imam Ali((عليه السلام))

Who fought and defeated Amr ibn Al Wud at Khandak and defeated him, and Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) said 'All of Iman (Imam Ali) is fighting all of Kufr(Amr)' ? Imam Ali. Who was the Angel Gibrael taking about when he said 'There is no Shabab (Faithful Youth) other than Imam Ali((عليه السلام)), there is no Sword except Dhul Fiqar' ? 

Who participated in every battle against the Kufar and never retreated or disobeyed the Prophet ? Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). 

Who did Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) give the battle flag of Islam to and said, 'I am giving this flag to one whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves and he loves Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and he never retreats until he gains victory over the enemy' ? Imam Ali on the day of the Battle of Khaybar. 

I could keep going on and on with this. If you want to compare Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) and Abu Bakr and exclude Shia sources completely and , and exclude the hadith of Ghadeer completely, only go with Facts which are mutually agreed upon by all muslims, there is still no comparison. The facts I have given above are not in dispute, (and this is only a small sample of those facts) yet still some of our brothers are happy that Abu Bakr was chosen as the sucessor or Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and not Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). As Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) said in Nahjul Balagha 'There is enough light for those who wish to see'. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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