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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

In short you're claiming the narrations are fabricated because the aimmah (عليه السلام) would not say that all sustenance is from Allah and all creation is from Allah?

Incredible. 

brother, everyone can see that you've become desperate and you're  just typing whatever randomly popping up in your head.

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Brother, it’s impossible to win an argument with the ghulat. They don’t conform to the same standards of evidence or respect for rationality that you do. Their methodology is simple: if they like the

Started a new thread for this since I am baffled and the other thread is going in different directions. @randomly curious stated that ghuluw is only calling Imams as God. Everything else is game on. W

There is no one matched to him. He is the first and the last. So only he is eternal.

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13 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

really?:hahaha: all you're willing for is readers someHow become decieved by you. there are 5 verses i posted which says Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is best of the providers.

 

wait, lt me use your skills upon you.

 

Do you not know that Allah, for Him is the Kingdom of the skies and the earth? And there is none for you from besides Allah, from a Guardian nor a Helper[2:107]

 

 

But rather, your Guardian is Allah, and His Rasool, and those who are believing, those who are establishing the Salat and are giving the Zakat while they are performing Ruku [5:55]

 

let me ask you now. what conclusion will you come out with? 

 

there are no Guardian beside Allah (عزّ وجلّ) for you?

 

or will you keep both the verses in front then decide there are Guardians besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ)

 

or will you (Nauzubillah) say its being contradictory?

@Mahdavist rather you haven't:mod:

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Lol. @randomly curious has spammed this thread with copy and pastes of dodgy narrations, and what's worse, the formatting makes the thread almost impossible to read now.

For the benefit of others:

Quote

 

It has been narrated to us by Muhammad Bin Isa, from Ali Bin Al-Hakam, from Muhammad Bin Al-Fazeyl, from Zareys Al-Wabishy, who has said:
Jabir reports that I said to Abu Ja’farasws, ‘May I be sacrificed for you, the words of the knowledgeable one:

‘I will come to you with it before your glance returns to you’.

He (the narrator) said,

‘He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Jabir, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Made His Magnificent Name to be 
upon seventy-three Letters. There used to be with him (Asif Bin Barkhiya) the knowledge of one of these letters. The Earth contracted between him and the throne of Bilquis, until the two met (and heas grabbed the throne), and then it reverted to as it was before, whereas with us, from the Magnificent Name of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), are seventy-two Letters, and one Letter regarding the knowledge of the unseen is hidden with Him (عزّ وجلّ).

Basaair Al Darajaat – P 4 Ch 12 H 6

I Had read in a Narration which states, whenever Asif bin Barkhiya willed, the earth used to fold itself for him. 

 

محمد بن يحيى وغيره ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن علي بن الحكم ، عن محمد بن الفضيل قال أخبرني شريس الوابشي ، عن جابر ، عن أبي جعفر عليه‌السلام قال إن اسم الله الأعظم على ثلاثة وسبعين حرفا وإنما كان عند آصف منها حرف واحد فتكلم به فخسف بالأرض ما بينه وبين سرير بلقيس حتى تناول السرير بيده ثم عادت الأرض كما كانت أسرع من طرفة عين ونحن عندنا من الاسم الأعظم اثنان وسبعون حرفا وحرف واحد عند الله تعالى استأثر به في علم الغيب عنده ولا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله العلي العظيم.

Weak for a few reasons. Apart from an unknown narrator, an a problematic primary narrator, Shaykh Tusi says that Muhammad ibn Fudail has been accused of ghuluw. Majlisi also grades this hadith as majhool, which seems generous.

Quote

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al Husayn Bin Saeed and Muhammad Bin Khalid, 
from Zakariyya Bin Imran Al Qummy, from Haroun Bin Al Jahm, ‘From a man from the companions of Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام), his name was not preserved, who said, ‘I heard Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) saying:

‘Isa Bin Maryam (عليه السلام) was Given two letters. He used to work with these two; and Musa (عليه السلام) was Given four letters, and Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was Given eight letter, and Nuh (عليه السلام) was given fifteen letters, and Adam (عليه السلام) was Given twenty five letters, and that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Gathered all of it for Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), and that the Magnificent Name of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) are seventy three letters. Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was Given seventy-two letters, and one letter was Veiled from him"

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 11

محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن الحسين بن سعيد ومحمد بن خالد ، عن زكريا بن عمران القمي ، عن هارون بن الجهم ، عن رجل من أصحاب أبي عبد الله عليه‌السلام لم أحفظ اسمه قال سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه‌السلام يقول إن عيسى ابن مريم عليه‌السلام أعطي حرفين كان يعمل بهما وأعطي موسى أربعة أحرف وأعطي إبراهيم ثمانية أحرف وأعطي نوح خمسة عشر حرفا وأعطي آدم خمسة وعشرين حرفا وإن الله تعالى جمع ذلك كله لمحمد صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله وإن اسم الله الأعظم ثلاثة وسبعون حرفا أعطي محمد صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله اثنين وسبعين حرفا وحجب عنه حرف واحد.

Weak (obviously).

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Mahdavist let me post few more verses and let me simply ask you few questions.

 

will you only believe in these verses and derive a belief that there is no Guardian Except Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

 

 

Indeed! The sincere Religion is for the Sake of Allah, and those who are taking guardians from besides Allah (say), ‘We do not worship them except they draw us closer to Allah’. Surely, Allah will Decide between them regarding what they were differing in. Surely, Allah does not Guide one who is an ungrateful liar [39:3]

 

Do you not know that Allah, for Him is the Kingdom of the skies and the earth? And there is none for you from besides Allah, from a Guardian nor a Helper[2:107]

 

 

Say: ‘Shall I take other than Allah as a Guardian (and) He is the originator of the skies and the earth, and He Feeds and is not fed?’ Say, ‘I have been Commanded that I should be the first one to submit, and you should not become from the associators’ [6:14]

 

 

And warn with it those who fear that they would be Gathering to their Lord. There isn’t for them a Guardian from besides Him nor an interceder, that they may be fearing [6:51]

 


They are swearing by Allah that they did not say it, and they have said the word of Kufr, and they committed Kufr after their Islam and they planned with what they could not attain; and they hated except if Allah and His Rasool was to Enrich them from His Grace. So if they were to repent, it would be better for them, and if they turn back, Allah would Punish them with a painful Punishment in the world and the Hereafter; and there isn’t for them in the earth from a guardian, nor a helper [9:74]

 


Surely, Allah, for Him is the Kingdom of the skies and the earth. He Causes to live and Causes to die, and there isn’t for you, from besides Allah, neither a guardian nor a helper [9:116]

 

or will you keep this verse in front too then derive a belief that there are Guardians beside Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

 

 

But rather, your Guardian is Allah, and His Rasool, and those who are believing, those who are establishing the Salat and are giving the Zakat while they are performing Ruku [5:55]

 

and obviously you won't call it a contradiction. there are only two options for you. and you Have to choose one of them.

 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Lol. @randomly curious has spammed this thread with copy and pastes of dodgy narrations, and what's worse, the formatting makes the thread almost impossible to read now.

For the benefit of others:

محمد بن يحيى وغيره ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن علي بن الحكم ، عن محمد بن الفضيل قال أخبرني شريس الوابشي ، عن جابر ، عن أبي جعفر عليه‌السلام قال إن اسم الله الأعظم على ثلاثة وسبعين حرفا وإنما كان عند آصف منها حرف واحد فتكلم به فخسف بالأرض ما بينه وبين سرير بلقيس حتى تناول السرير بيده ثم عادت الأرض كما كانت أسرع من طرفة عين ونحن عندنا من الاسم الأعظم اثنان وسبعون حرفا وحرف واحد عند الله تعالى استأثر به في علم الغيب عنده ولا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله العلي العظيم.

Weak for a few reasons. Apart from an unknown narrator, an a problematic primary narrator, Shaykh Tusi says that Muhammad ibn Fudail has been accused of ghuluw. Majlisi also grades this hadith as majhool, which seems generous.

محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن الحسين بن سعيد ومحمد بن خالد ، عن زكريا بن عمران القمي ، عن هارون بن الجهم ، عن رجل من أصحاب أبي عبد الله عليه‌السلام لم أحفظ اسمه قال سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه‌السلام يقول إن عيسى ابن مريم عليه‌السلام أعطي حرفين كان يعمل بهما وأعطي موسى أربعة أحرف وأعطي إبراهيم ثمانية أحرف وأعطي نوح خمسة عشر حرفا وأعطي آدم خمسة وعشرين حرفا وإن الله تعالى جمع ذلك كله لمحمد صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله وإن اسم الله الأعظم ثلاثة وسبعون حرفا أعطي محمد صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله اثنين وسبعين حرفا وحجب عنه حرف واحد.

Weak (obviously).

 

 

Lol there is not one but at least 10 Narrations in basaair al darajaat. from many other Aimmah (عليه السلام) and narrators from thier time. and there are many similar Narrations which state the same in al kaafi too. and at least I've read over 15-17 Narrations with my very own eyes. who know how many are actually present in the books.

 

and of course they all are authentic.

 

but if you're still facing hesitation, then brother Mahdavist has already made a criteria for people like you.

 

Many Narrations=Mutawatir Narration.

 

i am sure you won't reject the criteria made by our brother. i am certain that for once you'll reject the authentic Narrations. but you will never reject anything coming from brother Mahdavist.

 

your deviating skills won't work while you people are discussing with me.

 

and why are you here? someone will conquer you in fishing reactions. please go and concentrate upon that.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, randomly curious said:

Let us come to the part of providing sustenance.


Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly states in the the Holy Qur'an, that He is Kahirur raaziqeen [best of the providers]

 

Isa the son of Maryam said: ‘O Allah, our Lord! Send down upon us food from the sky so it would happen to be a festival for us for our former ones and our latter ones, and a Sign from you, and Grace us, and You are the best of the Providers [5:114]

 


And those who emigrate in the Way of Allah, then are killed or they die, Allah would Sustain them with a goodly sustenance. And surely Allah, He is the Best of the sustainers [22:58]

 


Or are you asking them for a tribute? But, the tribute of your Lord is better, and He is the best of the providers [23:72]

 


Say: ‘Surely my Lord Extends the sustenance for one He so Desires to from His servants, and He Straitens for him. And whatever you spend from anything, He will Replace it, and He is the best of the Sustainers [34:39]

 


And when they see trade, or sport, they break (the Salat) to (go) to it, and they leave you standing. Say: ‘Whatever is in the Presence of Allah is better than the sport and the trade, and Allah is the best of the sustainers [62:11]

 


Similarly Allah (عزّ وجلّ) states that He is Ahsanal Khaliqeen.[best of the creators]

Here we present a Hadith from Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (عليه السلام), when Abu Hanifa objected to him for thanking Rasool-Allah (saws) along with Allah (عزّ وجلّ) after eating food. 


It is written in Kanzul Fawaid by Karajaki that once Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (عليه السلام) was eating food with Abu Hanifa and after finishing, Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (عليه السلام) expressed gratitude like this: 

 

 

“I thank Allah (عزّ وجلّ) who is the Sustainer of all worlds, O Allah (عزّ وجلّ) this was a blessing from You
as well as from Your Prophet (saws)

 

 

Upon hearing this Abu Hanifa said: “O Abu AbdAllah (عليه السلام)! You have include ‘someone else’ along with Allah (عزّ وجلّ).”

 

Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (عليه السلام) replied:

 

 “Be Careful! Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Says in His Book

 

(9:59): “If only they 
had been content with what Allah and His Messenger had gave them, and had said, "Sufficient unto us is Allah! Allah and His Messenger
will soon give us out of their Kindness:

 


And at another place Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Says

 


 (9:74): “……And they only stayed in opposition because Allah and His Messenger enriched them out of His grace…..;.

 

After listening to these Verses from Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (عليه السلام), Abu Hanifa said: 

 


“By Allah (عزّ وجلّ)! It seems I have never read or heard someone reciting these Verses of the Holy Quran before.” 

 

Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said:

 


“No, it’s not like this! You have not only heard these Verses before but also have read them. However, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Says for you and people like you


(47:24): “Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?” 

 

and Says 

 

(83:14): “Nay, but that which they have earned is rust upon their hearts.

 

 

(this Hadeeth Had an arabic Reference. I wasn't able to post it. i will attach a screenshot at the end)

 


It has been narrated to us by Muhammad Bin Abdul Jabbar, from Al-Hassan Bin Al-Hassan Al-Lu’lui, from Ahmad Bin Al-Hassan Al-Maysami, from Saleh, from Abu Hamza who said:

 

 

"I was in the presence of Ali Bin Al-Husayn (عليه السلام), and there were sparrows on the wall, across from the courtyard.


 He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Abu Hamza, do you know what they are saying? They are saying that there is a time for them in which they ask with their strength. 

 

O Abu Hamza, do not sleep before sunrise, for I dislike that for you. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Divides in that time the sustenance of the servants, and on Our hands, it is carried out."

 

[Source: Basaair Al Darajaat, Vol. 7, Chapter. 14, Hadees. 9]


All narrators are trustworthy, except for 'Saleh' whose specifics are not known

 


Narrated Muhammad bin Isa, from Yunus bin Abd al-Rahman, from some companions from Abi Abdillah Imam Sadiq (as):

 

"Nothing comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) unless its beginning from the Prophet (saww) then Amir al-Mumineen (عليه السلام) and then one by one and our last one is not more knowledgeable than our first."


[Source: Basaair al-Darajat, Pg. 116]

 

 

Ahmad bin Hawtha al-Bahili narrated from Ibraheem bin Iss~haq an-Nahawandi from Abdullah bin Hammad al-Ansari from Abdullah bin Bukayr from Hamran bin Ayun that Abu Jafar al-Baqir (عليه السلام) had said:

 

 

"As if I see your religion agitating in its blood and then no one will restore it as it has been before except a man from us Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).


He will give you two gifts a year and two livelihoods/sustenance a month.


You will be granted with wisdom at his time until a woman can judge with the Book of Allah and the Sunna of the Prophet (s) in her house."

 

[Source: Al-Ghayba - An-Numani, Chapter. 13, Hadees. 30]

 

 


Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Qasim ibn Yahya from his grandfather al-Hassan ibn Rashid from ibn Bukayr who has said the following:

 

"Once we were with Abu Abd Allah Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام), and the Imam (عليه السلام) gave us food, after eating we raised our hands and said, "All praise belongs to Allah." Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) then said, "O Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), this is from You and from Muhammad (saww), Your messenger, O Lord, all praise belongs to you, O Allah, send blessings upon Muhammad and his family (عليه السلام)."

 


[Source: al-Kafi, Vol. 6, Pg. 296]

 

 


Imam Moosa Kazim (عليه السلام) said that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) food was placed in front of Him used to say,

 

 "With the name of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), This is from the favor/grace of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and blessing of the Prophet (saww) and progeny of the Prophet (عليه السلام). O'Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), like you made us full (with food), make every believing man and women full. And bless our food, our drink, our bodies and our wealth."

 

[Source: Mustadrak al-Wasael, Vol. 16, Pg. 278]

Screenshot_2020-08-07-23-02-30-10.jpg

@Mahdavist if you agree with my 2nd option, then you'll have to accept all these verses and Narrations.

 

verses, obviously you'll accept them

 

Narrations, why? because they are being Compatible with the verses of the Holy Qur'an.

and because Imam Saadiq (عليه السلام) said this,

 

H 33344 – And from Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Abdullah Bin Muhammad, from Ali Ibn Al Hakam, from Aban Bin Usman, from Abdullah Bin Abu Ya’four who said that it was narrated to him from Al Husayn Bin Abu Al A’la, who was present with Ibn Abu Ya’four in this gathering, says:

‘I asked Abu Abd Allah (عليه السلام) about the differences in Hadith, narrated from one whom we trust and from those whom we do not trust’.

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘If a Hadith is referred to you and you find a witness for it from the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) or from the statements of the Messenger of Allah (saws), then its authentic, otherwise give it back to the one who brought it’.

 

(Wasail ul Shia, H. 33344)

 

and if you choose the first option, then i have no cure for it.

 

and if you come up with a third option, that will only be a opinion with no basis.

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23 hours ago, 786:) said:

The question is not whether or not Allah can create another Entity like him or not.

Allah isn't an 'entity', angels are entities. Calling Allah an entity would be Shirk. 

The notion of the Absolute creating another Absolute is contradiction of terms. If there are two Absolutes, then they are logically not-absolutes and rather conditioned by the Absolute. It doesn't matter what ratio you 'draw', it will always be governed by the Absolute - as-Samad, so to speak. 

This also brings to mind Surah 21:22, which is not a comment on Allah making more Allah, but a comment on the nature of polytheism. 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Haydar Husayn what’s was your conclusion of our deleted debate on the Arians?

mine is a bit complex. 
1. no prophet or imam is all hearing

2. No imam or prophet is omnipresent 

3. every imam and prophet depends on Allah for knowledge, if they know everything wouldn’t the difference be that they had seek it from someone while Allah knew everything before anything was to be known besides the fact that He grants the knowledge of that which is unknown to man to whomever He wishes? 

4. If someone’s compassion for example  is like that of Allah’s compassion wouldn’t that not be shirk since Dawud used Allah’s judgement of the Judgement Day on earth ? (Allah’s justice). 

5. no imam or prophet is omnipotent naturally as humans there is a limit to our power although we will be granted the power of Be-and-it-is in paradise 

6. no human is eternal since the possibility of death still exists and it is out of God’s mercy we live for ever and ever.

someone has mentioned a hadith of were an Atheist had an question, which he asked if Allah is omnipotent can He create another Allah ? The imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) replied that he can create a thousand of Allah’s but Allah will remain being creator while the others are created. 
 

now Arians that believe Jesus is a god the difference between him and God is that he is created. Btw the Arians can easily be refuted. 

Mark 13:32

32“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.”

That’s just one example. 

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8 hours ago, randomly curious said:

Lol, not only the authentic Hadeeth, it contradicts the Holy Qur'an too.

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly says He Has enumerated All things in a clarifying Imam (عليه السلام).


Surely, We Revive the dead, and We Write down whatever they send forward and their impacts, and We have Enumerated all things in a clarifying Imam [36:12]


And Ali Bin Ibrahim said, 

Regarding His Words:

 and We have Enumerated all things in a clarifying Imam [36:12],

You bring up a very good, solid point here actually. 

I think it relates to the Nur al-Muhammadi, or the 'Eternal Imam', the first created essence by God, the lesser Light, that manifests as all the Nabis, Rasools and Imams in history. This thing is also mentioned in the Ayat where it says that there is never a time that God hasn't had a messenger on earth.

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7 hours ago, randomly curious said:

or will you keep this verse in front too then derive a belief that there are Guardians beside Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

We know that there are guardians because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has specifically defined them in the Qur'an. Indeed it isn't a contradiction, rather it comes from the fact that wilayah has several meanings and levels in the arabic language so the fact that in some verses Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has kept this attribute solely for Himself and in others He has specified the wilayah of the prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) over the believers is no issue.

When it comes to the attributes of creation and of sustenance however, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not designated this attribute to others. Therefore your rejection of a hadith that states that creation and sustenance come always from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), is in fact baseless.

If you believe that there is a Creator other than Allah and a Sustainer other than Allah then name them. 

If not, then your whole basis of rejecting the narrations becomes false. 

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7 hours ago, randomly curious said:

and of course they all are authentic.

How can you attribute authenticity to them when you don't even know the narrators? 

7 hours ago, randomly curious said:

but if you're still facing hesitation, then brother Mahdavist has already made a criteria for people like you.

 

Many Narrations=Mutawatir Narration

The very definition of tawatur is the multiplicity of chains for a narration. I don't need to make a criteria of a definition that already exists. 

Besides it doesn't help much to have multiple narrations if they're coming from weak narrators.

 

 

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7 hours ago, randomly curious said:

Narrations, why? because they are being Compatible with the verses of the Holy Qur'an.

and because Imam Saadiq (عليه السلام) said this,

 

H 33344 – And from Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Abdullah Bin Muhammad, from Ali Ibn Al Hakam, from Aban Bin Usman, from Abdullah Bin Abu Ya’four who said that it was narrated to him from Al Husayn Bin Abu Al A’la, who was present with Ibn Abu Ya’four in this gathering, says:

‘I asked Abu Abd Allah (عليه السلام) about the differences in Hadith, narrated from one whom we trust and from those whom we do not trust’.

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘If a Hadith is referred to you and you find a witness for it from the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) or from the statements of the Messenger of Allah (saws), then its authentic, otherwise give it back to the one who brought it’.

 

(Wasail ul Shia, H. 33344)

Good in that case you can refer back to the narrations I posted earlier on from Bihaar al Anwaar and retract your accusation that they are fabricated since each of them can be supported by verses of the Qur'an. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

When it comes to the attributes of creation and of sustenance however, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not designated this attribute to others. Therefore your rejection of a hadith that states that creation and sustenance come always from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), is in fact baseless.

If you believe that there is a Creator other than Allah and a Sustainer other than Allah then name them. 

If not, then your whole basis of rejecting the narrations becomes false. 

obviously you had no option to escape that's the reason you chose this option.

 

ok, this means you've kept Ayat e wilayat in front before deriving a belief. this means you will believe in the verses which says, there are no Guardian besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ). but later you also believe in the verses which says there are two more Guardian besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ). this means this is your final belief in this concept.because you did keet each and everything in front right? you didn't go with the quantity right?

 

you will have to apply the same criteria here too. so even here, you cannot emphasis by saying, if a verse says, there are no Creators and providers besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ) so i will only believe in that verse.

 

 because many other verses even says Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is best of the providers. and many verses Even says, that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is best of the creators. 2 verses even says Eesaa (عليه السلام) created the bird (there are creators besides Allah basically) (عزّ وجلّ).

 

why did Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says O eesaa you created?

 

why is eesaa (عليه السلام) a creator bedside Allah (عزّ وجلّ) ?

 

and i already said, as for Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has said he is "best of the creators",

 

the tafseer said, because eesaa (عليه السلام) created a bird with his permission. and because the calf of samiryy was created by (I don't remember the name which Imam mentioned) with the halp of magic.

 

similarly Allah (عزّ وجلّ) also says He is best of the providers. and I've posted 5 verses regarding that.

 

and if you'll try to use your skills once again,

 

let me prove your concept wrong real quick.

 

here Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly says that eeaaa (عليه السلام) created the bird.

 


When Allah will Say: ‘O Isa son of Maryam! Remember My Favour upon you and upon your mother, when I Strengthened you with the Holy Spirit. You spoke to the people in the cradle and when of old age, and when I Taught you the Book and the Wisdom, and the Torah and the Evangel; and when you created from the clay like the form of the bird with My Permission, and you blew into it, so it became a bird by My Permission; and you cured the blind and the leper by My Permission; and when you extracted the dead by My Permission, and when I Refrained the Children of Israel from you when you came to them with the clear proofs, so those who committed Kufr from them said, ‘Surely this is nothing but clear sorcery!’ [5:110]

 

and in this verse Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says he is the creator of All things.

 

Say: ‘Who is the Lord of the skies and the earth?’ Say: ‘Allah’. Say: ‘So (why) are you taking guardians from besides Him who neither control for themselves any benefit nor harm?’ Say: ‘Are they equal, the blind and the seeing one? Or is it equal, the darkness and the light? Or are they making associates to be for Allah who created like He Created, so the creation was confusing upon them?’ Say: ‘Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme’ [13:16]

 

is this contradiction? of course not.

 

even if eesaa (عليه السلام) created that bird, but it was the act of Allah (عزّ وجلّ).

and Mawla (عليه السلام) explained this concept that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says angel of death gives death. then Allah (عزّ وجلّ) even says He (عزّ وجلّ) givies death.

 

but here, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) refers to thier act as his act.

 

and the verse which you posted, it's meaning is in a litral way. because even eesaa (عليه السلام) created "by taking from Allah" thats the reason if Aimmah (عزّ وجلّ) create and provide, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) refers to thier acts as his acts.

 

and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is the only Creator and the only provider in a literal sense despite the fact there are many creators and providers besides him

"creating and providing after taking it from Allah"

Edited by randomly curious
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Good in that case you can refer back to the narrations I posted earlier on from Bihaar al Anwaar and retract your accusation that they are fabricated since each of them can be supported by verses of the Qur'an. 

ok, if i bring a fabricated Narration which says only Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is your wali. will you accept it? despite it's being Compatible with so many verses of the Holy Qur'an? :hahaha:

or will you throw it by seeing the contradiction with Ayat e wilayat?

 

you don't need to act that childesh bro. it's too late now to twist. I've exposed your concept of twisting in my previous posts.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

We know that there are guardians because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has specifically defined them in the Qur'an. Indeed it isn't a contradiction, rather it comes from the fact that wilayah has several meanings and levels in the arabic language so the fact that in some verses Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has kept this attribute solely for Himself and in others He has specified the wilayah of the prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) over the believers is no issue.

 i forgot to quote this earlier.

 

by the way, this is just tafseer according to your own will which is kufr according to the Narrations. and I've warned you already in the previous threads saying not to do tafseer by your own will.

 

if you got a Narration to support your statement, bring it further

and yeah, obviously you won't claim that you recieved a revelation exactly before writing this crap.

 

and just to eliminate your manmade baseless claim,

 

Masoomeen (عليه السلام) Have said in many Narrations, 

 

our wilayat is the wilayat of Allah (عزّ وجلّ).

 

and even the kids belonging to shia madhab are aware about Masoomeen (عليه السلام) Having wilayat e takweeni. they have thier wilayat upon each and every single atom in the universe. and obviously they are Hujjah upon each and every creation of Allah (عزّ وجلّ). whoever that be. Masoomeen (عليه السلام) are Wali (Guardian)  upon them.

 

and I've aslso proved that Masoomeen (عليه السلام) are Handeling affairs of the creation too. and angels are working under the commands of Masoomeen (عليه السلام).

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, randomly curious said:

ok, this means you've kept Ayat e wilayat in front before deriving a belief. this means you will believe in the verses which says, there are no Guardian besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ). but later you also believe in the verses which says there are two more Guardian besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ). this means this is your final belief in this concept.because you did keet each and everything in front right? you didn't go with the quantity right?

Correct

4 hours ago, randomly curious said:

you will have to apply the same criteria here too. so even here, you cannot emphasis by saying, if a verse says, there are no Creators and providers besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ) so i will only believe in that verse.

Correct again, the issue is not on my side. It is you who has rejected the narrations of the aimmah because they stated that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the creator. 

So why do you reject then when you know that there are verses supporting them in the Qur'an? 

4 hours ago, randomly curious said:

who made this rule? your mujtahid?:hahaha: 

 

there are many sermons in Nahj al Balagha without the chain. so do you accept them or not?

 

To answer your question about nahjul balagha, you should know that in itself it is not a primary source of hadeeth. Rather sharif al radhi has compiled sermons from different sources, many of them sunni sources in fact. So I certainly don't blindly accept any and everu sermon, it needs to be evaluated just like any other hadith.

1 hour ago, randomly curious said:

 

 

by the way, this is just tafseer according to your own will which is kufr according to the Narrations. and I've warned you already in the previous threads saying not to do tafseer by your own will.

It isn't tafseer. It's simply a fact of the arabic language that wilayah is a vast term with different levels and meanings. When you grow up and get married even you will become a wali over your wife and kids. 

And as you know, it's a fact that there are verses where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has defined wilayah for Himself and verses where he has defined wilayah for the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام).

To suggest that this is tafseer shows an ignorance on your part of what tafseer is.

 

 

At the end of the day I think enough time has been wasted on circular discussions.

The narrations from the aimmah (عليه السلام) are present for those who want to refer to them. If you want to attribute falsehood to them, for the strange reason that you think the aimmah didn't believe Allah to be the only creator and the only provider of sustenance, then it's your own risk.

As salaamu alaikum

 

Edited by Mahdavist
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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Correct again, the issue is not on my side. It is you who has rejected the narrations of the aimmah because they stated that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the creator. 

So why do you reject then when you know that there are verses supporting them in the Qur'an? 

 

i explained this already about how your Narrations being contradictory but you're deliberately somehow try to tackle it.:hahaha:

let me quote it, so if it slipped from your sight, you can read it this time.

and please, if even you agree with the criteria of that brother when he says "a Hadeeth is not authentic untill and unless you hear it a million times" 

then i apologise. I won't be able to quote it a million times..

5 hours ago, randomly curious said:

 

ok, this means you've kept Ayat e wilayat in front before deriving a belief. this means you will believe in the verses which says, there are no Guardian besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ). but later you also believe in the verses which says there are two more Guardian besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ). this means this is your final belief in this concept.because you did keet each and everything in front right? you didn't go with the quantity right?

 

you will have to apply the same criteria here too. so even here, you cannot emphasis by saying, if a verse says, there are no Creators and providers besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ) so i will only believe in that verse.

 

 because many other verses even says Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is best of the providers. and many verses Even says, that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is best of the creators. 2 verses even says Eesaa (عليه السلام) created the bird (there are creators besides Allah basically) (عزّ وجلّ).

 

why did Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says O eesaa you created?

 

why is eesaa (عليه السلام) a creator bedside Allah (عزّ وجلّ) ?

 

and i already said, as for Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has said he is "best of the creators",

 

the tafseer said, because eesaa (عليه السلام) created a bird with his permission. and because the calf of samiryy was created by (I don't remember the name which Imam mentioned) with the halp of magic.

 

similarly Allah (عزّ وجلّ) also says He is best of the providers. and I've posted 5 verses regarding that.

 

and if you'll try to use your skills once again,

 

let me prove your concept wrong real quick.

 

here Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly says that eeaaa (عليه السلام) created the bird.

 


When Allah will Say: ‘O Isa son of Maryam! Remember My Favour upon you and upon your mother, when I Strengthened you with the Holy Spirit. You spoke to the people in the cradle and when of old age, and when I Taught you the Book and the Wisdom, and the Torah and the Evangel; and when you created from the clay like the form of the bird with My Permission, and you blew into it, so it became a bird by My Permission; and you cured the blind and the leper by My Permission; and when you extracted the dead by My Permission, and when I Refrained the Children of Israel from you when you came to them with the clear proofs, so those who committed Kufr from them said, ‘Surely this is nothing but clear sorcery!’ [5:110]

 

and in this verse Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says he is the creator of All things.

 

Say: ‘Who is the Lord of the skies and the earth?’ Say: ‘Allah’. Say: ‘So (why) are you taking guardians from besides Him who neither control for themselves any benefit nor harm?’ Say: ‘Are they equal, the blind and the seeing one? Or is it equal, the darkness and the light? Or are they making associates to be for Allah who created like He Created, so the creation was confusing upon them?’ Say: ‘Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme’ [13:16]

 

is this contradiction? of course not.

 

even if eesaa (عليه السلام) created that bird, but it was the act of Allah (عزّ وجلّ).

and Mawla (عليه السلام) explained this concept that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says angel of death gives death. then Allah (عزّ وجلّ) even says He (عزّ وجلّ) givies death.

 

but here, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) refers to thier act as his act.

 

and the verse which you posted, it's meaning is in a litral way. because even eesaa (عليه السلام) created "by taking from Allah" thats the reason if Aimmah (عزّ وجلّ) create and provide, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) refers to thier acts as his acts.

 

and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is the only Creator and the only provider in a literal sense despite the fact there are many creators and providers besides him

"creating and providing after taking it from Allah"

 

 

34 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

To answer your question about nahjul balagha, you should know that in itself it is not a primary source of hadeeth. Rather sharif al radhi has compiled sermons from different sources, many of them sunni sources in fact. So I certainly don't blindly accept any and everu sermon, it needs to be evaluated just like any other hadith.

let us forget about this and let us keep it asid. I don't want the topic to be diverted somewhere else.

 

34 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

It isn't tafseer. It's simply a fact of the arabic language that wilayah is a vast term with different levels and meanings. When you grow up and get married even you will become a wali over your wife and kids. 

And as you know, it's a fact that there are verses where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has defined wilayah for Himself and verses where he has defined wilayah for the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام).

To suggest that this is tafseer shows an ignorance on your part of what tafseer is.

Lol. thats the difference. as i already said Masoomeen (عليه السلام) Have wilayat on each and every atom which exists. the only individual Masoomeen (عليه السلام) don't have thier wilayat upon is Allah (عزّ وجلّ).

 

and as for someone being wali upon thier wife and kids, that wilayat will be extremely limited. only upon few people that too who share a blood relation with that someone. and Masoomeen (عليه السلام) Have wilayat e takwini as mentioned above.

 

Lol bro. you're comments are so amusing. that's what i am trying to explain you. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) first says there are no walis besides him. then Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says there are two more walis besides him.

 

in a verse Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says eesaa (عليه السلام) created a bird. in other verses he (عزّ وجلّ) says that he is the creator of all things.

 

in a verse Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says, Angel of death gives us death. in a verse Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says He gives death.

 

now, similarly as the verse you quoted in which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) said, he is the only Creator and only provider. but in other verses he also says he ia best of the creators and best of the providers.

 

thats what i am trying to explain you.

 

we have to keep each and everything in front then derive a belief and then vouch Narrations.

 

and you cannot pick few random Narration and say it is Compatible with the Holy Qur'an. but the fact emerges you didn't kept each and every verse in front. all you did i was took a verse and somehow tried to deviate the readers

 

and again, as far as wilayat is concerned,

 

Masoomeen (عليه السلام) already said our wilayat is wilayat of Allah (عزّ وجلّ).

 

and if you'd still insist on your claims, id like to ask this to you once again.

 

 

ok, if i bring a fabricated Narration which says only Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is your wali. will you accept it? despite it's being Compatible with so many verses of the Holy Qur'an? :hahaha:

or will you throw it by seeing the contradiction with Ayat e wilayat?

 

you don't need to act that childesh bro. it's too late now to twist. I've exposed your concept of twisting in my previous posts.

 

(i wasn't able to quote this so i just copy pasted it).

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

At the end of the day I think enough time has been wasted on circular discussions.

The narrations from the aimmah (عليه السلام) are present for those who want to refer to them. If you want to attribute falsehood to them, for the strange reason that you think the aimmah didn't believe Allah to be the only creator and the only provider of sustenance, then it's your own risk.

As salaamu alaikum

keep trying to deviate the readers bro. :hahaha:

 

but don't forget the fact that you're living in 2020 and not attempting to do a campaign in a village amongst few people whom you'd say day is night and night is day and they will blindly accept it and rely upon you.

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Seems like a good place to bring in some quotes from an old thread of mine: 

Shaykh Mufeed on ghuluw:

Quote

The adherents of the doctrine of delegation (al-Mufawwidah) are a group of extremists who are distinguished from the others by their peculiar claim that though the Imams are created, originated beings, and not eternal, yet they ascribe to them creation and sustaining. Also, they maintained that Allah, the Exalted, created them and ceased to create, delegating to them the creation of the world and what lay therein.

[...]

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imams are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imams are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abu Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess.

For those who don't have very good reading comprehension he is saying that if you believe that the Imams "are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power" then you are a ghali. And he says that while essentially almost accusing Shaykh Saduq of taqsir!

Shaykh Tusi in his tafsir of the Qur'an says:

Quote

The intended meaning of creation (in this verse) is taqdir (ordainment) apart from ihdath (generation). It is said in the explanation that he made from clay as the shape of a bat, and blew thereon and so it became a bird. And the meaning of “I blow thereon”, meaning: I blow the soul (ar-ruh) in it, and it is a subtle body like the wind. And it is other than the life (al-hayat), for the body is only made alive by what Allah does in it of life, for bodies – all of them – are alike, Allah makes to live from them whatever He wills. And he only conditioned his saying of “and it shall become a bird by the permission of Allah” and did not condition his saying of “I will create for you out of clay as though it were the form of a bird” with mention of the permission of Allah so that he might remind by the mention of the permission (al-idhn) that it is from the act of Allah apart from `Isa. But as to the formation and the blowing, then it was his (`Isa’s) act, for it is not of what enters under the determined (maqdur) of qadr. But the transformation of the inanimate body into a living creature is not like that, for no one is able to do that apart from Him. And his saying “and I will bring the dead to life by the permission of Allah” is on a figurative sense in adjoining it to himself, while its reality is that he would pray to Allah to revive the dead, so Allah would revive them and they would live by His permission.

(Tafsir at-tibyan)

 

So Allah gave life to the bird, not `Isa (عليه السلام). As a friend pointed out to me recently, do the ghulat think that Musa (عليه السلام) was physically manipulating the water molecules when the sea was parted?

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Posted (edited)

@Mahdavist your buddies have came to defend your stance and to join you in deviating the readers.. waiting for @786:) to participate too.

 

@Haydar Husayn bring Narrations and not some Nonsensical opinions by a fallible. and the opinions which you posted are itself contradictory with the Holy verses of the Holy Qur'an. if you want to know how, give some trouble to youself and read the previous pages.

 

and by the way, if someone's having a bad day, please do read these worthless opinions:hahaha:

 

edit:

 

and if you both are here just to give hearts to each other, please do inform me so i may leave this thread asap.

Edited by randomly curious
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2 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

What is the debate even about now?

@randomly curious

you should see it yourself brother. 

our brother @Mahdavist can fit an entire series of debate into a single debate with his twisting skills.

 

and when we post something related to the thread, our brother @Mahdavist loses his mind and starts deleting everthing which he finds hard to consume.

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47 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

 bring Narrations and not some Nonsensical opinions by a fallible. and the opinions which you posted are itself contradictory with the Holy verses of the Holy Qur'an. if you want to know how, give some trouble to youself and read the previous pages.

Those fallibles preserved the religion for us, so have a bit of respect.

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Simple answer, The 12 Imams and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) don't know the knowledge of the unseen unless Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has told them through an angel or the knowledge has been passed down.

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9 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Simple answer, The 12 Imams and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) don't know the knowledge of the unseen unless Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has told them through an angel or the knowledge has been passed down.

You would think it would be simple...

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Those fallibles preserved the religion for us, so have a bit of respect.

those very fallibles could've quoted Narrations instead of giving opinions without fearing Allah (عزّ وجلّ). 

even they knew they don't have any references from the Holy Qur'an or the Narrations which are compatible with the Holy Qur'an.

 

similarly even you're very well aware that there's no option to win this, so why not start doing personals attacks on the members who've proved thier points by bringing the verses from the Holy Qur'an and proved the Narrations you brought as fabrications.

 

let me see what you got next.

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32 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

@786:) i see you didn't respond yesterday.

are you satisfied enough that the name i mentioned was not Asif raza alvi?

but rather that was a usooli guy who presents fatwas and opinions of your mujtahids (like you people do) and he even wears a turban too.

Have not had a chance to read everything. Nonetheless, Usoolis are only bound by the fiqh of mujtahids—not in the matters of aqeedah. I have not watched the video, but if Ali Raza Rizvi believes in Tafweed then I wholeheartedly disagree with him.

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8 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

those very flalibles could've quoted Narrations instead of giving opinions without fearing Allah (عزّ وجلّ). 

even they knew they don't have any references from the Holy Qur'an or the Narrations which are compatible with the Holy Qur'an.

 

similarly even you're very well aware that there's no option to win this, so why not start doing personals attacks on the members who've proved thier points by bringing the verses from the Holy Qur'an and proved the Narrations you brought as fabrications.

 

let me see what you got next.

Do you accept there are clear contradictions in Bihar ul Anwar or Al Kafi? If so, what is your method to validate the authentic side?

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Do you accept there are clear contradictions in Bihar ul Anwar or Al Kafi? If so, what is your method to validate the authentic side?

I don't say these all books are 100% error free.

 

the rules are made simple by the Masoomeen (عليه السلام),

if contradictory with the Holy Qur'an, throw it on the wall. if compatible with the Holy Qur'an and the statements of RasoolAllah (saws) then its authentic.

 

and i would avoid answering similar questions like these further.

 

if you want to know what i accept and what i reject, go and read this thread 

 

"giving proper References"

 

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