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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Started a new thread for this since I am baffled and the other thread is going in different directions. [someone] stated that ghuluw is only calling Imams as God. Everything else is game on. What is everyone's thoughts on this. I find this to be shirk in itself. Of course he presented a narration to support this. But this narration is in clear violation of the Quran. We read Surah Ikhlas several times a day in which Allah says, there is nothing like him. Yet, this brother says Imams can be just like Allah, but it is only ghuluw to call them Allah.

Is this a fringe opinion or is this a widespread belief? Please pitch in.

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On 8/6/2020 at 2:55 PM, 786:) said:

Started a new thread for this since I am baffled and the other thread is going in different directions. [someone] stated that ghuluw is only calling Imams as God. Everything else is game on. What is everyone's thoughts on this. I find this to be shirk in itself. Of course he presented a narration to support this. But this narration is in clear violation of the Quran. We read Surah Ikhlas several times a day in which Allah says, there is nothing like him. Yet, this brother says Imams can be just like Allah, but it is only ghuluw to call them Allah.

Is this a fringe opinion or is this a widespread belief? Please pitch in.

I think it’s fairly mainstream amongst those that think about these things. In a sense you are almost forced into this position if you believe in calling on the Imams and wilayah al-takwiniya. Otherwise you would need to call that ghuluw, which would be very problematic for those that hold those beliefs.

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@786:) and don't you find recognition of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) in this? that he (عزّ وجلّ) is able upon all things to that extent that he is able to create another one like him.

and if you still insist by saying he (عزّ وجلّ) is unmatched, so how can his creation resemble him?

then your question itself will become void.

because for resembling him (عزّ وجلّ) you will need someone who is eternal like him.

and as many as "Allah" he (عزّ وجلّ) will create, as Mawla (عليه السلام) said in that Hadeeth,only He Himself will remain the creator and the rest will be called His creation.

I think you’re missing the point. The question is not whether or not Allah can create another Entity like him or not. He is all potent. That is one of his attributes. This discussion is around him sharing his attributes with his creation. Allah is all knowing—he has knowledge of all. Prophet Muhammad is simply knowing. He does not have knowledge of all and this is highlighted in the Quran by crystal clear verses. Allah is all hearing. Prophet Muhammad is not. Allah is Omni present. Prophet Muhammad is not. If the Prophet was all hearing or Omni present, would Allah have to point out to the Prophet to watch out for the munafiqeen around him. He would simply hear all their conversations and know himself. Right? 
 

Allah condemns the Christians for making Isa godlike. We have to use the context of Isa and apply it elsewhere as well as the Quran is the guide til the end. We can’t apply godlike characteristics to Prophet Muhammad or Imam Ali regardless of however many Hadith there are that support this ghuluw. Hadith are to be thrown against the wall if they go against the Quran. Simple.

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who is Eesa (عليه السلام) compared to Masoomeen (عليه السلام)? the drop amongst the drop which fell from the noor of Masoomeen (عليه السلام) when they lifted thier head up after they came out from the 20 seas of Noor created by thier own noor while they were doing tasbeeh of Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

No point in discussing with you. You bring narrations that go against the Quran to prove your narrative and then dismiss Isa as some average joe. Basically the Prophet was just bringing Christianity 2.0 according to you. Remove Isa and insert Imams. How does your mind even accept that after reading the Quran? Maybe you haven’t and just read selected verses for your benefit. Allah knows best. 

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I have noticed one thing, Shias with ghuluw leanings often lean on Narrations for their points. This is found in Nusehris too. They use the same books 12ers use. They are not well versed in the Quran and usually have no relationship with it as they cannot paint their narrative with it.

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On 8/6/2020 at 9:34 PM, HusseinAbbas said:

I have a question for you, do you beleive Allah(stw) knowlege to be infinite?

yes or no.

According to the worthless narration he believes in, Allah only has knowledge upto 73 letters. Whatever that means. 

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yes definitely. and i feel you might ask, if Allah (عزّ وجلّ)'s knowledge has no beginning, so how come his knowledge consists of 73 letters,

well, knowledge of the unseen is eternal too. if Allah (عزّ وجلّ)  can put the Unseen in a single letter, than what he cannot do?

Infinite knowlege =/= quantative knowlege 

it's simple logic

73 =/= infinity

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a kafi, basaair al darajat, bihar al anwaar are filled with this Narrations and similar like this in the chalters regarding the knowledge of Masoomeen (عليه السلام)

You believe the countless tahreef narrations in there too?

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Masoomeen (عليه السلام) can know whatever they desire from the unseen. and in al kafi its clearly mentioned that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) didn't grant them the 73rd letter to demonstrate the difference between creator and the creation.

Oh really? So why did the Prophet have to wait for wahi for Aisha's innocence? Why could he just not dip into the knowledge of the unseen? Or was this just part of the act as you claim?

 

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Masoomeen (عليه السلام) can know whatever they desire from the unseen. and in al kafi its clearly mentioned that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) didn't grant them the 73rd letter to demonstrate the difference between creator and the creation.

How does that make 73 = infinity???

Wether the masoomen(عليه السلام) can know whatever they want is another subject, they are still limited and they can't fit the infinite knowlege of Allah(stw) into their limited being.

 

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i already gave you an example for this. why didn't the Holy Prophe (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) destroy every opponent present at khaybar with his spiritual power? why did he had to wait for 40 days? he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has the power to split the moon into two , but cant destroy few opponents?

Hate to disappoint you, but who said the Prophet could destroy every opponent? Allah tested the Prophet with hardship as well. I think you believe the fairytales off the mimbar. Marvel: Arabia edition.

The miracles of the Prophet were powered by Allah and not of the Prophets own will.

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when did i say that the knowledge of Masoomeen (عليه السلام) is infinite? 

i only said that they aren't all knowing because they've been taught.

 

but never forget, they can take as much as knowledge of the unseen they desire. because they've got the keys to it.

 

and just to clarify, in this context knowledge of the unseen means this.

 

The Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Great, the Most High [13:9]

 

Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘My father narrated to me, from Sa’ad Bin Abdullah, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Al Hassan Bin Ali Bin Fazaal, from Sa’albat Bin Maymoun, from one of our companions, 

 


(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic

 

[13:9] The Knower of the unseen and the seen, so he (عليه السلام) said: ‘The 
unseen – what has not happened yet; and the seen – what has already happened’.

 

ref-

 

ssمعاني اآلخبار: 146 /1.

I've never said that you said that, I was talking about how can your earlier statement make 73 = infinity.

The fact that the masomeen(عليه السلام) can have the key to knowlege does not mean that Allah(stw) knowlege is 73, these are 2 unrelated things.

This was my claim, that Allah(stw) knowlege is infinite not a limited number such as 73.

If I remeber correctly the number 72 is an arabic term to mean a lot of things, the nunber 73 could be that they are reffering to the fact that Allah(stw) knowlege is diffirent ie it is infinite this number does not nesessarly have to be taken litterally.

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Surah Al-Zukhruf 43:86

Those whom they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE WITNESS TO THE TRUTH and who know [for whom to intercede].

 

The verse "Allah only intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." 

Sunni reference: 

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663 

 

Ja'far Ibn Abi Talib narrated: When the Messenger of Allah noticed that a blessing from Allah was to descent, he told Safiyya (one of his wives): "Call for me! Call for me!" Safiyya said: "Call who, O the Messenger of Allah?" He said: "Call for me my Ahlul-Bayt who are Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain." Thus we sent for them and they came to him. Then the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) spread his cloak over them, and raised his hand (toward sky) saying: "O Allah! These are my family (Aalee), so bless Muhammad and the family (Aal) of Muhammad." And Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, revealed: "Allah only intends to keep off from you all uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a thorough purification (Quran, the last sentence of Verse 33:33)". 

Sunni references:

* al-Mustadrak by al-Hakim, Chapter of "Understanding (the virtues) of Companions, v3, p148. The author then wrote: "This tradition is authentic (Sahih) based on the criteria of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim)."

* Talkhis of al-Mustadrak, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p148

* Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v3, p33 

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:salam:

:bismillah:

1 hour ago, 786:) said:

The question is not whether or not Allah can create another Entity like him or not.

42_11.png

He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made you and the cattle in pairs and has multiplied you by His creation. There is certainly nothing like Him. He is All-hearing and All-aware.

Ash-shura Verse 11

The answer is no. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not created. So If he created another "god", than there is a difference. This "god" is created while Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not created.

This is nothing like Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and there will never be anything like Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

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do you agree that the knowledge of the unseen Has no end? you will right? even the momineen will be immortal in paradise.

Something that has no end does not necessarly mean it is infinite, it means that it is going towards infinity, big diffirence there.

It had a begening so not really infinite.

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Ok instead of getting stuck in circular discussions I suggest we look directly at what has been said by the aimmah (عليه السلام) themselves as reported in none other than Bihaar al Anwaar which our dear brother regularly likes to refer to.

 

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Two companions of Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) came to him and said, “Mufazzal Ibn ‘Umar says that you –the Ahlul Bayt– define the servants’ sustenance.” Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) stated, “By Allah that no one defines the servants’ sustenance except Allah. I once could not provide my family’s provisions and got upset. I thought about it until I could provide food for my family, then I became relaxed. May Allah curse Abul Khattab who attributes lies to us.” The two companions said, “Should we curse Abul Khattab and avoid him?” Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied, “Yes.” So his companions did so and said, “Allah and His Messenger (S) hate Abul Khattab too

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p.301.

 

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Zararah says, “I told Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).), ‘One of the children of Abdullah Ibn Sanan believes in tafwidh (devolving).’ Imam ((عليه السلام).) asked, ‘What is tafwidh?’ I said, ‘They believe that the Exalted Allah created Muhammad (S) and Ali ((عليه السلام).), then devolved the world issues to them. Now they create, give sustenance, and give death and life.’ Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) stated, ‘He is Allah’s enemy and lies. If you saw him, recite this verse:

أَمْ جَعَلُوا لِلَّهِ شُرَکاءَ خَلَقُوا کَخَلْقِهِ فَتَشابَهَ الْخَلْقُ عَلَيْهِمْ قُلِ اللَّهُ خالِقُ کُلِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ وَ هُوَ الْواحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ

‘Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: "Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible."

Zararah says, ‘When I recited the verse for that person it was as if there was stone in his mouth (He could not defend his belief anymore).’

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 343.

 

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Abu Hashim says, “I asked Imam Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) about the ghulat and mufawiddah. Imam ((عليه السلام).) stated, ‘The ghulat are infidels and the mufawiddah are polytheists. Anyone who interacts with and accompanies them, has food or drink with them, marries them, trusts them, confirms their speech, or helps them even by saying a single word, will go out of guardianship of Allah, His Messenger (S) and the Ahlul Bayt.’”

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 273.

 

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Abdur Rahman Ibn Kathir says, “Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) told his companions, ‘May Allah curse Mughayrat Ibn Sa’id and the Jew woman, who visited him and learned magic and odd things from him. Mugayrah attributed lies to my father, so the Almighty Allah took his belief from hims. Some other people attributed lies to me. Allah will make them taste the heat of iron.’

By Allah, we are only His servants; He created and selected us. We have no power to bring advantage or disadvantage for ourselves. If the Almighty has Mercy on us, it is from He and if He punishes us, it is because of our own deeds.’

By Allah that we have no argument against Allah! We cannot free ourselves from the Fire. We die like other people and will be placed inside a grave. Then we will be resurrected and reckoned about our deeds in the Hereafter. Woe be to them! May Allah curse them! They upset Him. They upset Messenger of Allah (S), Amiral Mu’minin ((عليه السلام).), Fatimah (s.a.), Hasan ((عليه السلام).), Husayn ((عليه السلام).), Ali Ibn Husayn ((عليه السلام).), and Muhammad Ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).) in their graves. I am the son of Prophet Muhammad (S). You see that I am fearful of Allah’s wrath in my bed, while they sleep comfortably in their beds. I beg Allah and weep from His fear, but they are asleep. I am frightened of Allah’s punishment in mountains and deserts. I take refuge to Allah from this stupid man (Abul Khattab). May Allah curse him!’”

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 289.

 

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Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) stated, “Be careful that the qulat do not lead your youth astray! The qulat are the worst creatures of Allah, because they belittle Allah’s greatness and consider divinity for His servants.”

By Allah that qulat are worse than the Jews, the Christians, and the infidels. If they come to us, we do not accept to see them, but we will accept a muqassir.” The Imam ((عليه السلام).) was then asked, “O son of Messenger of Allah! What is the reason?” Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) replied, “Because a ghali is used to abandoning prayer, fasting, Zakat, and Hajj and cannot leave his habit. A muqassir, however, will practice his obligatory deeds when he finds out his fault

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 265

 

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Imam Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) said in his prayers, “O Lord! I take refuge in You for changing the states and abilities. Wa la hawla wa la quwwata illa bik (And there is no power except from You) O Lord! I take refuge in You and hate the people who lie about us. O Lord! I take refuge in You from the people who say things about us that we do not say.”

O Allah! Creation is done by You and You grant sustenance. I worship You and ask help from You. You are the Creator of us and our fathers; from the first one to the last one. O Allah! Divinity is for You and does not deserve anyone else. I curse the Christians who belittle Your magnitude and the people who attribute greatness to Your other servants. O Lord! We are your creatures and servants, not owners of our advantage and disadvantage, nor our life and death. We avoid anyone who thinks we are his Lord or supposes that the servants’ creation or sustenance is in our hands, just like the avoidance of Jesus from the Christians.”

O Lord! We have not invited them to this belief, so do not scold us for what they say and save us from such invalid qualities. Perish them from the earth; if they remain on the earth they will lead Your servants astray and make them infidels

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 343.

 

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Abu Basir Says, “I told Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).), ‘People say some things about you.’ Imam ((عليه السلام).) asked, ‘What do they say?’ I said, ‘They say that you know the number of rain drops, stars, trees’ leaves, sands, and the weight of seas’ water and deserts’ soil.’ Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) raised his head to the sky and stated, ‘Subhana Allah! Subhana Allah! (Glory be to Allah!) By Allah not! Only Allah knows these things.’”

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 394.

 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward Sheikh Ibrahim al Amini for summarizing these narrations in his work on Imamah: https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-imams-ibrahim-amini

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even the momineen will be immortal in paradise.

Its because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given them eternal life. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) didn't keep his promise than he could kill them when ever he feels like it.

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6 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Ok instead of getting stuck in circular discussions I suggest we look directly at what has been said by the aimmah (عليه السلام) themselves as reported in none other than Bihaar al Anwaar which our dear brother regularly likes to refer to.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p.301.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 343.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 273.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 289.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 265

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 343.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 394.

 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward Sheikh Ibrahim al Amini for summarizing these narrations in his work on Imamah: https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-imams-ibrahim-amini

One unrelated thing im uncertain of, the unseen does have a begining? 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Ok instead of getting stuck in circular discussions I suggest we look directly at what has been said by the aimmah (عليه السلام) themselves as reported in none other than Bihaar al Anwaar which our dear brother regularly likes to refer to.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p.301.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 343.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 273.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 289.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 265

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 343.

 

Biharul Anwar, Vol 25, p. 394.

 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward Sheikh Ibrahim al Amini for summarizing these narrations in his work on Imamah: https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-imams-ibrahim-amini

I am not a fan of Bihar due to some of its narrations, but it is refreshing to see these narrations that comply with the Quran. Subhan'Allah. I fear this may simply be written off as taqiyya however.

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

According to the worthless narration he believes in, Allah only has knowledge upto 73 letters. Whatever that means. 

Salams,

I'm not sure where i read this (bad memory), is that there are three types of knowledge, knowledge that has been given to us, like your ordinary humans, 2nd type is knowledge that is only given to the Prophets and Imams (maybe this is where 73 comes from) and finally the third type is the knowledge only with God (Gods infinte Knowledge). So maybe that 73 is only the 2nd type of knowledge that God has only been give to the Prophets and Imams.

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38 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

One unrelated thing im uncertain of, the unseen does have a begining? 

Yes. Think of it this way, I have 5 senses, Say I haven't tasted a lemon but I know what it tastes like because I have friends who told me its sour. Does this knowledge have a beginning? Yes. It this unseen/unknown knowledge came to me when my friends told me that the lemon is sour.

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there are many fabricated Narrations similar to this

Many narrations = mutawatir hadith. 

As for it being fabricated, we will wait for your proof :)

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contradictory with other authentic Narrations. throw it on the wall now.

If it contradicts the Qur'an it is thrown. 

As for contradicting authentic narrations, I will wait to see your evidence that shows other narrations to be stronger than this one.

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and didn't you people yourslef claimed? 90% of bihar al anwaar being spurious? now picking up random Narrations from it?:D

Since you were quoting from Bihaar I am sure you won't have any issues with these narrations.

Alhamdulillah with these narrations the aimmah (عليه السلام) have clarified what can and can't be attributed to them. They have also clarified the status of those who attribute such things to them. 

Those who want to follow the aimmah will follow them. Those who want to reject their instructions will reject them. At least the guidelines are clear. 

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3 hours ago, 786:) said:

Allah condemns the Christians for making Isa godlike

Christians make jesus godlike because of his miracles and knowledge then once they are refuted they start misinterpreting words and the Jews called Ezra the son of God because of his knowledge. 

 

3 hours ago, 786:) said:

Allah is all hearing. Prophet Muhammad is not. Allah is Omni present. Prophet Muhammad is not. If the Prophet was all hearing or Omni present, would Allah have to point out to the Prophet to watch out for the munafiqeen around him. He would simply hear all their conversations and know himself. Right? 

Question, who carries the Arsh, and moves the clouds? 

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4 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

 

Sslafi answer: Huge angels whos bodies extend the entire samawat carry the arsh.

The angels carry the Arsh and angels move the clouds. Angels have different tasks, one of the angels has been designated by God to carry out the requests of man convey them to the interceder.  

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40 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

The angels carry the Arsh and angels move the clouds. Angels have different tasks, one of the angels has been designated by God to carry out the requests of man convey them to the interceder.  

no but sallafis take this litterally as in angels bigger then the universe carry a chair which Allah(stw) physically sits on, Godforbid

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You have seen the narrations of our aimmah (عليه السلام) that I posted but decided that they were fabricated (without evidence)

You then brought forward some other narrations and decided that they were authentic. 

And yet you have no methodology to distinguish the authentic narration from the fabrication.

In any case it is sufficient for us that the aimmah (عليه السلام) have described ghuluw and the status of the ghulat. Those who still insist on following this may do as they wish, the rest of us will follow the guidelines of our aimmah (عليه السلام) inshaAllah. 

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28 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

You have seen the narrations of our aimmah (عليه السلام) that I posted but decided that they were fabricated (without evidence)

You then brought forward some other narrations and decided that they were authentic. 

And yet you have no methodology to distinguish the authentic narration from the fabrication.

In any case it is sufficient for us that the aimmah (عليه السلام) have described ghuluw and the status of the ghulat. Those who still insist on following this may do as they wish, the rest of us will follow the guidelines of our aimmah (عليه السلام) inshaAllah. 

Brother, it’s impossible to win an argument with the ghulat. They don’t conform to the same standards of evidence or respect for rationality that you do. Their methodology is simple: if they like the sound of it, accept it, and if they don’t, reject it.

In starting to think that when the Imams advised us not to sit with the ghulat, it was for the sake of our own sanity more than anything else.

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one half can be kept in a single letter, other remaining can't be kept in rest 72? come on bro.

although the Narrations state the "Allah (عزّ وجلّ)s knowledge consists upon 73 letters."

we don't know either that whether Allah (عزّ وجلّ) did or didn't put his "entire" knowledge in these 73 letters.

For me the 73 letters thing is not correct

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but we either way cannot deny that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) put his knowledge of the unseen in a single letter. because knowledge of the unseen has no limits either.

We see that in Dua Kumayl it says,

"O who knows but was never taught."

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has always had this knowledge even though the unseen has no limits either.

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