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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Posted (edited)

Started a new thread for this since I am baffled and the other thread is going in different directions. @randomly curious stated that ghuluw is only calling Imams as God. Everything else is game on. What is everyone's thoughts on this. I find this to be shirk in itself. Of course he presented a narration to support this. But this narration is in clear violation of the Quran. We read Surah Ikhlas several times a day in which Allah says, there is nothing like him. Yet, this brother says Imams can be just like Allah, but it is only ghuluw to call them Allah.

Is this a fringe opinion or is this a widespread belief? Please pitch in.

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Brother, it’s impossible to win an argument with the ghulat. They don’t conform to the same standards of evidence or respect for rationality that you do. Their methodology is simple: if they like the

Started a new thread for this since I am baffled and the other thread is going in different directions. @randomly curious stated that ghuluw is only calling Imams as God. Everything else is game on. W

There is no one matched to him. He is the first and the last. So only he is eternal.

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finally i got to deal with you one on one.

 

lets start. as you quoted a verse which says, there is No one like Allah (عزّ وجلّ) no doubt. we all agree to that. but if there would be someone being match to him,  that someone has to be eternal.

 

you should read this post of mine

 

 

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5 minutes ago, 786:) said:

There is no one matched to him. He is the first and the last. So only he is eternal.

show a single statement of Mine in which i said Masoomeen (عليه السلام) are eternal? i already agreed there is no one matched to him. i think you didn't read the post from the topic "if Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is Al Qadir. tell me do you want me to post it here?

 

and if you got any Narrations regarding ghuluw, bring them. 

 

because few Narrations by Masoomeen (عليه السلام) state, don't call us Allah (عزّ وجلّ) then say anything in our praises. in few Narrations Masoomeen (عليه السلام) said, believe we have a creator then say anything in our praises. and in the latest Narration i posted, Mawla (عليه السلام) said, consider us creation, than say anything in our praises. 

 

let me post that Here so the readers can see it too

 

عن أحمد بن محمد, عن الحسين بن سعيد, عن الحسين بن برده, عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام). وعن جعفر بن بشير الخزاز, عن إسماعيل بن عبد العزيز, قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يا إسماعيل, ضع لي في المتوضاء ماء. قال: فقمت فوضعت له. قال: فدخل. قال: فقلت في نفسي: أنا أقول فيه كذا وكذا, ويدخل المتوضاء يتوضاء. قال: فلم يلبث أن خرج فقال: يا إسماعيل, لا ترفع البناء فوق طاقته فينهدم. اجعلونا مخلوقين, وقولوا بنا ما شئتم؛ فلن تبلغوا. فقال إسماعيل: وكنت أقول: إنّه وأقول وأقول

Narrated from Ahmad bin Muhammad, from Al-Husain bin Saeed, from Al-Husain bin Burdah, from Abi Abdillah (عليه السلام)
And Narrated from Jafar bin Basheer Al-Khazzaz, from Ismail bin Abdul Aziz from Abi Abdillah (as):

Abu Abdillah (عليه السلام) said, "O' Ismail, place some water for me in the Wuzu vessel."

Ismail said, "I stood up and placed the water for Him." And I said to myself, "I will say regarding it such and such...."


And Imam (عليه السلام) came and performed Wuzu. (Not soon that He was to leave....?)

Imam (عليه السلام) said, "O' Ismail, don't raise the construction over its strength, else it will collapse. Consider us as Creations. And then say about us what-ever you like, you will not be able to reach us."

Ismail said, "And I said it, and I said, and I said."

[Source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 5, Chapter. 10, Hadees. 5]

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, 786:) said:

This "Say whatever" has to be within the bounds of the Quran. When Allah in the Quran states there is nothing like him, we cannot come and say that Imams are just like Allah. This is Shirk.

did it bounced off your Head of did you deliberately wrote this?

i won't say, but if someone says Imams (عليه السلام) are like Allah, i already explained you that to be  like Allah (عزّ وجلّ) you need to be eternal first. and wait. i will have to post that Narration from the post if Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is Al Qadir.or else you'll just keep stretching the thread for no reason.

 

 

I don't Have a direct answer for your question. 


But may be this could be Helpful for you to understand How Allah عزّ وجلّ is Al Qadir.

 

 Although I don't Have a reference for this right now. I've Heard this in a video. so i apologise to whomsoever it may concern.


Once a atheist came to the court of the khalifa (not sure which, but one amongst the first 3) and said to the khalifa that i want to become a Muslim. He asked him should we make you recite the kalma? Atheist replied, first answer my question. 


The atheist said, isn't there a verse in the Holy Qur'an which says,


surely, You are Able upon everything [3:26]


He replied, yes


The atheist asked, Do you believe this is possible?


He replied, yes we do believe. Allah can do whatever He desires.


The atheist said, now lets come to my question.

 

Atheist asked, Can your Allah (azwj) create another Allah? 

 

Because He is Laa shareek (with no partners)


Tha khalifa called His rented scholars and asked them to answer the questions.

 

The scholars said we need 3 days to find an answer for it

 

He replied, you will get the answer for your question within 3 days.


After 3 days, once again the atheist came to the court and asked, did you get the answer for my question?


The khalifa called his rented scholars and asked them for the answers.

 

They said, Lets kill him. He Has been disrespectful towards Allah. He is standing in the court of Muslims and asking can Allah (azwj) create another Allah. what can be a greater disrespect then this. He Has made an accusation against our Allah.

 

the khalifa asked, will the punishment be related to islam?

 

they said, yes completely related to islam


the khalifa ordered to kill him. The executioner kept the sword on the neck of the atheist.


The atheist said, i will be dead but my question will remain Alive. And till the time my question won't be answered, my name will remain Alive.

 

Then they decided not to kill the atheist. But they somehow wanted him to go away from the court. So they said, lets remove that verse from the Holy Qur'an and lets say that verse isn't the part of the Holy Qur'an.


Then later Hazrat salmaan (a great companion of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) grabbed the Hand of the atheist and told Him, let me take you to the one who is the inheritor of the Holy Qur'an. Then they reached at the door Of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Salmaan said peace be upon you Ya Ameer ul Mo'mineen (عليه السلام)


Imam (عليه السلام) replied, peace be upon you too O Salmaan. 


Imam (عليه السلام) asked Him, did you come alone or brought the atheist along?


The atheist tried to return. Salmaan said to Him, take your answers and then go. salmaan aksed Him Why are you returning?


Atheist replied, I've got my answers. The one who knows me without meeting me will also know the answers to my question as well.


Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said to Him, your question was, whether Allah is able upon all things or not.

 


Undoubtedly Allah is able upon all things.

 

Your second question was can He create another Allah.


Because He is Laa shareek (with no partners)


Imam (عليه السلام) said, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) can create not one but one thousand Allah. but As many as He will create, He Himself will remain the creator and others will be called His creation.

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@786:)

 

Ali ibn Ahmad ibn Mohammed ibn Imran ad-Daqqaqra narrated that Mohammed ibn Yaqoob al-
Kulayni quoted on the authority of Ali ibn Mohmmed- known as Allan, on the authority of Mohammed ibn Isa, on the authority of Al-Hussain ibn Khalid, who said the following: 

 


Abil Hassan Al-Reza (عليه السلام) said: ‘May Allah (عزّ وجلّ) bestow upon you knowledge of the good. Know that the Blessed the Sublime God is Eternal. The Eternity is that attribute, which guides the wise to know that there was noting before Him in eternity, nor is there anything eternal along with Him. That this attribute is a miraculous one has come to light from the acknowledgement of the common folks that there is noting before Allah (عزّ وجلّ), with Allah (عزّ وجلّ) or after Him. At the same time, it invalidates the belief that there was something before or along with Him. Had there been something eternal along with Him, He (عزّ وجلّ) would not have been the Creator of that thing. If it was along with Him, then how could He (عزّ وجلّ) have been it’s creator? Had there been something existing before Him, then that thing might have been His creator because of its existing earlier than 
Him. 


The Blessed the Sublime Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has ascribed certain names to Himself. When He (عزّ وجلّ) created His creatures, He (عزّ وجلّ) enabled them to worship Him and told His creation to call Him by those names. He (عزّ وجلّ)called Himself All-Hearing, All-Seeing, All-Powerful, Guarding, Standing, Manifest, Hidden, Subtle, All Aware, Powerful, Majestic, Wise, the All-Knowing and other similar names. When the animosity-mongers who speak lies heard us mention such names and that there is nothing similar to Him, and that none of the creatures are like onto Him they began to speak out. They said: ‘When you say that there is nothing like onto Him (عزّ وجلّ) and nothing is similar to Him, then how come you also use those beautiful names for yourselves? This is a proof that you are similar to Him in all conditions or in some conditions because of having the same beautiful names.’ It is said to them that the Blessed the Sublime Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has named His servants with some of His Owen names but with 
differences in the meanings. A name may have two different meanings. The proof of this is simply what is popular amongst the people. This is the same way that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has addressed the people. He (عزّ وجلّ) has spoken to them by means of the things that they understand so that they will have no excuse in their misdeeds. 


A man is sometimes called a dog, a donkey, a bull, a lion, sweet or bitter. All these are used with a meaning different from their true meaning since they are not used in their original meanings. Since a man is neither a lion nor a dog. May Allah (عزّ وجلّ) have Mercy upon you, please pay close attention to this.

 

(extract from a lengthy Narration)

 

i will post the complete Narration later Inshaa'Allah.

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Posted (edited)

@786:) did you understand the concept now? if Allah (عزّ وجلّ) will create not one but one thousand Allah, still they won't be able to resemble him. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is eternal. because He is the only Creator. and the rest of Allah he (عزّ وجلّ) would create will be called his creation. and he (عزّ وجلّ) is the only creator. if angles, Prophets, Masoomeen (عليه السلام) create something by his permission, still the only creator will be Allah (عزّ وجلّ).

 

that's the reason his creatures cannot resemble him even if they be another Allah created by him (عزّ وجلّ) himself.

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Posted (edited)

@786:) and don't you find recognition of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) in this? that he (عزّ وجلّ) is able upon all things to that extent that he is able to create another one like him.

and if you still insist by saying he (عزّ وجلّ) is unmatched, so how can his creation resemble him?

then your question itself will become void.

because for resembling him (عزّ وجلّ) you will need someone who is eternal like him.

and as many as "Allah" he (عزّ وجلّ) will create, as Mawla (عليه السلام) said in that Hadeeth,only He Himself will remain the creator and the rest will be called His creation.

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Started a new thread for this since I am baffled and the other thread is going in different directions. @randomly curious stated that ghuluw is only calling Imams as God. Everything else is game on. What is everyone's thoughts on this. I find this to be shirk in itself. Of course he presented a narration to support this. But this narration is in clear violation of the Quran. We read Surah Ikhlas several times a day in which Allah says, there is nothing like him. Yet, this brother says Imams can be just like Allah, but it is only ghuluw to call them Allah.

Is this a fringe opinion or is this a widespread belief? Please pitch in.

I think it’s fairly mainstream amongst those that think about these things. In a sense you are almost forced into this position if you believe in calling on the Imams and wilayah al-takwiniya. Otherwise you would need to call that ghuluw, which would be very problematic for those that hold those beliefs.

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4 hours ago, randomly curious said:

@786:) and don't you find recognition of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) in this? that he (عزّ وجلّ) is able upon all things to that extent that he is able to create another one like him.

and if you still insist by saying he (عزّ وجلّ) is unmatched, so how can his creation resemble him?

then your question itself will become void.

because for resembling him (عزّ وجلّ) you will need someone who is eternal like him.

and as many as "Allah" he (عزّ وجلّ) will create, as Mawla (عليه السلام) said in that Hadeeth,only He Himself will remain the creator and the rest will be called His creation.

I think you’re missing the point. The question is not whether or not Allah can create another Entity like him or not. He is all potent. That is one of his attributes. This discussion is around him sharing his attributes with his creation. Allah is all knowing—he has knowledge of all. Prophet Muhammad is simply knowing. He does not have knowledge of all and this is highlighted in the Quran by crystal clear verses. Allah is all hearing. Prophet Muhammad is not. Allah is Omni present. Prophet Muhammad is not. If the Prophet was all hearing or Omni present, would Allah have to point out to the Prophet to watch out for the munafiqeen around him. He would simply hear all their conversations and know himself. Right? 
 

Allah condemns the Christians for making Isa godlike. We have to use the context of Isa and apply it elsewhere as well as the Quran is the guide til the end. We can’t apply godlike characteristics to Prophet Muhammad or Imam Ali regardless of however many Hadith there are that support this ghuluw. Hadith are to be thrown against the wall if they go against the Quran. Simple.

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30 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Allah is all knowing—he has knowledge of all. Prophet Muhammad is simply knowing. He does not have knowledge of all and this is highlighted in the Quran by crystal clear verses. Allah is all hearing. Prophet Muhammad is not. Allah is Omni present. Prophet Muhammad is not. If the Prophet was all hearing or Omni present, would Allah have to point out to the Prophet to watch out for the munafiqeen around him. He would simply hear all their conversations and know himself. Right? 

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is all knowing because nobody taught him. Masoomeen (عليه السلام) are not All-knowing because they've learned the knowledge from Allah (عزّ وجلّ). and haven't you read the Narration regarding ism e aazam? 

 

the Narration clearly states, that Allah (عزّ وجلّ)'s knowledge consists of 73 letters. and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) taught Masoomeen (عليه السلام) and kept one veiled from them just to demonstrate the difference between the creature and the creation. 

and that one letter which is veiled from the Masoomeen (عليه السلام) consists the knowledge of the unseen. and Masoomeen (عليه السلام) can know whatever they wish.

 

let us say you have a key to a house. and you make a replica and give one to me. what will be the difference? 

 

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly states in the Holy Qur'an that it Has the keys to the unseen. and Masoomeen (عليه السلام) posses the knowledge of thousand books which includes the Holy Qur'an.

30 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Allah is all hearing. Prophet Muhammad is not. Allah is Omni present. Prophet Muhammad is not. If the Prophet was all hearing or Omni present, would Allah have to point out to the Prophet to watch out for the munafiqeen around him. He would simply hear all their conversations and know himself. Right? 

How cannot Masoomeen (عليه السلام) be All hearing? i gave you the Narrations from al kafi still you're saying this?

 

wait let me post them once again.

 

and as for being omni present, 

 

“Say that the Malakal Mout (Angel of death) gives you death” – Qur'an.

Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) explains this 


verse and says “Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says during Mehraaj (Nocturol descension) I saw an angel from amongst the angels who has a board of Noor in his hands and was concentrating on it without distraction. I asked who is he, Malakal Mout replied jibreel, and is busy taking away the souls. I asked to move closer to him – when I was near him I asked, “O Malakal Mout do you take away the souls of all those who are about do die. He said ‘Yes’, I asked “Are you present at everyones death” ? He replied ‘Yes–It is not but all the world is controlled for me and I have been given the power over it.  It is like a small coin (Dirham) on the palm, which could be turned around as desired.I visit every house five times a day, and when the family of the dead cries I tell them not to because I will come time and time again until no one of you is left. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then replied “ Death is a great difficulty” jibreel (عليه السلام) replied ‘Yes but what happens after death is still more torturous”.


Ref- Man la Yahzuruhu al Faqih vol.1 p.99

 

the angel of death is present at many places taking away souls, Masoomeen (عليه السلام) can't be? the world for the angel of death is like a coin on a palm, the

universe,heavens,earth for and Imam (عليه السلام) is like a palm itself

 

Imam Jafar Sadiq (عليه السلام) says,

 

“To Imam (عليه السلام), this whole universe, heavens, and earth is like (then Imam (عليه السلام) pointed towards His palm and said ) this (palm). He has full knowledge of the universe and heavens. Those things that can be seen and those that are hidden. Those which enter into it (born) and those which leave it (die).” 

 

Haqaiqul Wasiyat First Edition 
page no. 181 ref Bihar ul Anwar Seventh Edition, 

 

and there are many compatible Narrations for this.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, 786:) said:

If the Prophet was all hearing or Omni present, would Allah have to point out to the Prophet to watch out for the munafiqeen around him. He would simply hear all their conversations and know himself. Right? 

Lol, this was amongst the acts he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had to do in his human fabric and outfit. and it was the will of Allah (عزّ وجلّ). according to surah dahr, they do not will except for what Allah (عزّ وجلّ) wills.

 

similarly, the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can split the moon into two with his spiritual power, but has to wait for 40 days to conquer the battle of khaybar?

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Allah condemns the Christians for making Isa godlike. We have to use the context of Isa and apply it elsewhere as well as the Quran is the guide til the end. We can’t apply godlike characteristics to Prophet Muhammad or Imam Ali regardless of however many Hadith there are that support this ghuluw. Hadith are to be thrown against the wall if they go against the Quran. Simple.

who is Eesa (عليه السلام) compared to Masoomeen (عليه السلام)? the drop amongst the drop which fell from the noor of Masoomeen (عليه السلام) when they lifted thier head up after performing sajdah after they came out from the 20 seas of Noor created by thier own noor while they were doing tasbeeh of Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

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and clearly Masoomeen (عليه السلام) are yaznullah (ears of Allah) even without taking this literally, they hear everything and witness every act of the creation. and similarly Masoomeen (عليه السلام) are ainullah (eyes of Allah) they see each and everything. nothing is Hidden from them (عليه السلام)

 

read these few Narrations.

 

Ahmad Bin Muhammad and Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Muhammad Bin Al Husayn, from Ibrahim Bin Is’haq Al Ahmar, from Abdullah Bin Hammad, from Sayf Al Tammar who said, 


‘We were with Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) as a group of Shias in Al-Hijr, so he a.ssaid to us: 

 

‘Is there any (spying) eye upon us?’ So we turned right and left, but we did not see anyone, so we said, ‘There is no eye upon us’. So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘By the Lord of the Kabah! By the Lord of the Kabah!’ – three times, ‘Had I been between Musa a.sand Al-Khizr (عليه السلام), I would have informed themas both that I am more knowledgeable than the two of them, and would have given them the news of what wasn’t in their hands (knowledge), because Musa (عليه السلام) and Al-Khizr (عليه السلام) were both Given Knowledge of what had happened, and theyas were not Given knowledge of what was happening and what was going to happen up to the Establishment of the Hour, and weasws have inherited it from Rasool-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as an inheritance’


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 48 H 1

 

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Sinan, from Yunus 
Bin Yaqoub, from Al Haris Bin Al Mugheira and a number of our companions, from whom was Abdul A’ala and Abu Ubeyda and Abdullah Bin Bishr Al Khash’amy, 
(All of them) having heard Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) saying:


 ‘I am more knowing of what is in the skies and what is in the earth, and am more knowing of what is in the Paradise, and more knowing of what is in the Fire, and more knowing of what has already happened and what is going to happen’.


They (the narrators) said,

 ‘Then he (عليه السلام) waited for a while, and he saw that, that was grievous upon the ones who had heard it from him, so he (عليه السلام) said:

‘That is from the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic is 
Saying in it is a 


[16:89] Clarification of everything’.

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 48 H 2

Ali Bin Muhammad, from Sahl, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Abu Nasr, from Abdul Kareem, from Jam’a Bin Sa’ad Al Khashamy who said, 

‘Al-Mufazzal was in the presence of Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام), so Al-Mufazzal said to him, ‘May I be sacrificed for you! Does Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Necessitate the obedience of a servant upon the servants and Veils the news of the sky from him?’ 


He (عليه السلام) said: 

 

‘No. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is more Benevolent, and more Merciful, and more Kind than that He would Necessitate the obedience of a servant upon the servants, then He would Veil the news of the sky from him, morning and evening’.

 

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 48 H 

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ibn Mahboub, from Ibn Raib, from Zurey Al Kunasy who said, 


‘I heard Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) saying, and in his presence were people from hiscompanions:


‘I am astounded from a group of people who are befriending us and making us to be their Imams (عليه السلام), and are describing that obedience to us is a necessity upon them just like the obedience to Rasool-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), then they are breaking their own arguments and are debating against themselves due to their weak hearts, so they are being deficient in our rights, and they are (then) faulting that upon the ones whom Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has Granted the substantiation of the right of our recognition, and the submission to our orders.


Are you viewing that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Blessed and High would Necessitate the obedience to His Guardians upon His servants, then He (عزّ وجلّ) would Hide the news of the skies and the earth and cut-off the Mine of the Knowledge from them, regarding what is referred to them from what wherein is the straightness of their Religion?’


So Humran said to him (عليه السلام), 


‘May I be sacrificed for you! What is your view of what was from the matter of the risings of Ali Bin Abu Talib (عليه السلام), and Al-Hassan (عليه السلام), and Al-Husayn (عليه السلام), and their  coming out and their rising with the Religion of Allah, Mighty is His Mention, and what hit them from the tyrants murdering them and being victorious with them until they murdered and overcame?’

 

So Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Humran! Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Blessed and High had already Determined that upon them, and Ordained it, and Accomplished it, and Made it to be inevitable upon the way of the choice (by them). Then He (عزّ وجلّ) caused it to flow. Thus, it was by the preceding of knowledge to them from Rasool-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that 
Ali (عليه السلام), and Al-Hassan (عليه السلام), and Al-Husayn (عليه السلام) arose, but (on the other hand) it was due to (that) knowledge remains silent, the one from us who is silent.


And had they, O Humran, when it descended with them what descended from Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic, and the victories of the tyrants upon them, asked 
Allah Mighty and Majestic that He  Defends them from that, and insisted upon it with regards to the decline of the kingdoms of the tyrants and the annihilation of their kingdoms, then He (عزّ وجلّ) would have Answered them and Defended them from that, then it would have been so that the expiry of the duration of the tyrants and the annihilation of their kingdoms would have been quicker than the dispersal of the beads when their string is cut off, so it would have dispersed.

 

And it was not so, that, that which hit them, O Humran, was neither due to sins they (عليه السلام) had committed nor was it a Punishment due to disobedience opposing Allah (عزّ وجلّ) therein, but it was due to the status and Benevolence from Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Intending that they reach it. Therefore, do not let the (false) principles take you to be among them’ (who oppose the truth).

 

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 48 H 4

 


Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ali Bin Ma’bad, from Hisham Bin Al Hakam who said,


‘I asked Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) at Mina about the five hundred letters (sentences/questions) from the theology. So I turned saying, ‘They are saying such and such’.


 He (عليه السلام) said: ‘So they are saying, ‘Say such and such?’ I said, ‘May I be 
sacrificed for you! This is Permissible, and this is Prohibited. I know that youare its master and that you are more knowledgeable of the people with it, and this, it is the theology’. 


So he (عليه السلام) said to me: ‘Woe be unto you, O Hisham! Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Blessed and High does not Impose any duty upon His creatures without first providing them all that which they need to comply with those (very) Commands’


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 48 H 5


Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Umar Bin Abdul Aziz, from Muhammad Bin Al Fuzayl, from Abu Hamza who said, 


‘I heard Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) saying: ‘No, by Allah (عزّ وجلّ)! A knowledgeable one cannot happen to be ignorant, ever, that he would be a knower of something and be ignorant of something’.


Then he (عليه السلام) said: ‘Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is more Majestic, and more Mighty, and more Benevolent than that He would Necessitate the obedience of a servant, and then Veil from him a.a the knowledge of His sky and His earth’.


 Then he (عليه السلام) said: (Indeed) ‘Nothing is Hidden from him (عليه السلام)’.


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 48 H 6

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Ismail, from his uncle Hamza Bin Bazie, from Ali Al Saiy, 


(It has been narrated) from Abu Al-Hassan (عليه السلام) the 1st Mawla Musa al Kaazim) having said:

 

 ‘Our knowledge reaches upon three aspects – the past, the ancient, and the newly occurring (present). So as for the past, so it is interpreted, and as for the ancient, so it Hymned, and as for the newly occurring (present), so it is cast into the hearts, and 
reverberated in the ears, and it is the most superior of our knowledge, and there is no Prophet a.a to come after our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)’.


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 50 H 1

 

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Abu Zahir, from Ali Bin Musa, from Safwan Bin Yahya, from Al Haris Bin Al Mugheira, 


(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) , said, ‘I said, ‘Inform me about the knowledge of your knowledgeable ones (i.e., Imams)’.


He (عليه السلام) said: ‘It is an inheritance from Rasool-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and from Ali (عليه السلام)’. I said, ‘We are narrating that it gets cast into your hearts, and reverberates into your ears?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Or that’.


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 50 H 2

 

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from the one who narrated it, from Al Mufazzal Bin Umar who said, 


‘I said to Abu Al-Hassan (عليه السلام), 


‘We are reporting from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) that he
said:


 ‘Our knowledge is ancient, and Hymned, and Cast into the hearts, and Reverberated into the ears. As for the ancient, so it is what has preceded from our Knowledge, and as for the Hymned, so it is what is Given to us, and as for the Cast into the hearts, so it is inspiration, and as for the Reverberated into the hearts, so it is an instruction of the Angel’


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 50 H 3

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al Husayn Bin Saeed, from Fazalat 
Bin Ayoub, from Aban Bin Usman, from Abdul Wahid Bin Al Mukhrat who said, 

‘Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) said: ‘If there was a stopper for your tongues (to restrain them), I would have narrated every person with what is for him and against him’ 


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 51 H 1

 

And by this chain, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ibn Sinan, from Abdullah Bin Muskan who said, 

 

‘I heard Abu Baeer saying, ‘I said to Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام), 


‘From where did the companions of Ali (عليه السلام) attain (the knowledge of) what is going to hit them, along with the knowledge of their deaths and their calamities?’ 


He (Abu Baseer) said, ‘So he (عليه السلام) answered me resembling the anger:


 ‘From whom would that be except for themselves?’ 


So I said, ‘So what is preventing you, may I be sacrificed for 
you?’ 

(i.e., to foretell our future to us).


He (عليه السلام) said: ‘That is a locked door, except that Al-Husayn (عليه السلام) Bin Ali opened something small from it’.

Then he (عليه السلام) said:’O Abu Muhammad! Those ones, they used to have stoppers upon their mouths’.


Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 51 H 2

 

Ali Bin Muhammad and Muhammad Bin Al Hassan, from Sahl Bin Ziyad, from Muhammad Bin Al Hassan Bin Shamoun, from Abdullah Bin Abdul Rahman, from Abdullah Bin Al Qasim, from Sama’at, 

 

(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) having said:


 ‘For Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Blessed and High there are two (types of) Knowledges – a Knowledge He Manifested upon the 
Angels and His Prophets (عليه السلام) and His Rasools (عليه السلام). So whatever was Manifested upon His Angels, and His Rasools (عليه السلام), and His Prophets, we know it; and a Knowledge He (عزّ وجلّ) is exclusive with it. So whenever Allah (عزّ وجلّ) begins regarding something from it, He (عزّ وجلّ) Teaches us that and it is displayed upon the Imams (عليه السلام) who were before us’.

 

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 44 H 1

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5 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

who is Eesa (عليه السلام) compared to Masoomeen (عليه السلام)? the drop amongst the drop which fell from the noor of Masoomeen (عليه السلام) when they lifted thier head up after they came out from the 20 seas of Noor created by thier own noor while they were doing tasbeeh of Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

No point in discussing with you. You bring narrations that go against the Quran to prove your narrative and then dismiss Isa as some average joe. Basically the Prophet was just bringing Christianity 2.0 according to you. Remove Isa and insert Imams. How does your mind even accept that after reading the Quran? Maybe you haven’t and just read selected verses for your benefit. Allah knows best. 

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I have noticed one thing, Shias with ghuluw leanings often lean on Narrations for their points. This is found in Nusehris too. They use the same books 12ers use. They are not well versed in the Quran and usually have no relationship with it as they cannot paint their narrative with it.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I have noticed one thing, Shias with ghuluw leanings often lean on Narrations for their points. This is found in Nusehris too. They use the same books 12ers use. They are not well versed in the Quran and usually have no relationship with it as they cannot paint their narrative with it.

this Narration is present in al qatra too. the same author who've written opinions regarding ghuluw. and when i said regarding his opinion, its abode is trash, you called me nusayyri.

and now when i am presenting a Narration from the book of the same author, you're accusing me for being a nusayyri.:hahaha:

 

come on bro! by the way these all stuff aren't thier merits. Never ever consider whatever they (عليه السلام) said as thier merits.

 

because Imam al jawwad (عليه السلام) said this,
 

Mawla Taqi (عليه السلام) says

Bihar ul Anwar Ninth Edition page no. 25,

Imam Muhammad 
Taqi (عليه السلام) said, 

“I swear by Allah if there was not such a danger that the followers of falsehood and the offspring of kufr and polytheists would attack Us, I would have revealed such truths of Masoomeen (عليه السلام) upon hearing the whole of creation would be so 
surprised. After this Imam (عليه السلام) put His hand on His mouth and said,

 “O’Muhammad! Keep silent the way your forefathers remained silent.”

 

don't you know none can recognise them Except for Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

 

would you like to read something regarding Thier merits?

 

and yeah, i am aware that this too will be labelled spurious by you. so you don't need to mention it in your next post

 

(The book) ‘Al Kharaij Wa Al Jaraih’ – By this chain, said, 

 

‘A man came to Al-Husayn-asws Bin Ali-asws and said ‘Narrate to me with your-asws merits, those which Allah-azwj has Made to be for you-asws’. He-asws said: ‘You will never (be able to) tolerate its load’.


He said, ‘Yes, narrate to me, O son of Rasool-Allah-saww! I will bear it’.

So he-asws narrated to him a Hadeeth.


 Al-Husayn-asws was not (even) free from narrating it until the head (hair) of the man and his beard had turned white, and he forgot the Hadeeth. 


Al-Husayn-asws said: ‘The Mercy of Allah-azwj came across him when he forgot the Hadeeth’’


Bihar Al Anwaar – V 25, The book of Imamate, P 3 Ch 13 H 27

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Randomly curious I have a question for you, do you beleive Allah(stw) knowlege to be infinite?

yes or no.

yes definitely. and i feel you might ask, if Allah (عزّ وجلّ)'s knowledge has no beginning, so how come his knowledge consists of 73 letters,

 

well, knowledge of the unseen has no end either. if Allah (عزّ وجلّ)  can put the entire Unseen in a single letter, than what he cannot do?

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2 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Randomly curious I have a question for you, do you beleive Allah(stw) knowlege to be infinite?

yes or no.

According to the worthless narration he believes in, Allah only has knowledge upto 73 letters. Whatever that means. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, 786:) said:

According to the worthless narration he believes in, Allah only has knowledge upto 73 letters. Whatever that means. 

a kafi, basaair al darajat, bihar al anwaar are filled with this Narration and similar ones like this in the chapters regarding the knowledge of Masoomeen (عليه السلام)

 

and yet, I've only explored these three. who knows and in  how many books this and similar ones like this is present in

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

yes definitely. and i feel you might ask, if Allah (عزّ وجلّ)'s knowledge has no beginning, so how come his knowledge consists of 73 letters,

 

well, knowledge of the unseen is eternal too. if Allah (عزّ وجلّ)  can put the Unseen in a single letter, than what he cannot do?

Infinite knowlege =/= quantative knowlege 

it's simple logic

73 =/= infinity

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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1 minute ago, randomly curious said:

a kafi, basaair al darajat, bihar al anwaar are filled with this Narrations and similar like this in the chalters regarding the knowledge of Masoomeen (عليه السلام)

You believe the countless tahreef narrations in there too?

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Infinite knowlege =/= quantative knowlege 

it's simple logic

73 =/= infinity

Masoomeen (عليه السلام) can know whatever they desire from the unseen. and in al kafi its clearly mentioned that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) didn't grant them the 73rd letter to demonstrate the difference between creator and the creation.

 

and in a online lecture i heard a guy who was talking about the same Narration. and he mentioned that Masoomeen (عليه السلام) said, 

we are the "Mazher" of the 72 letters of Allah (عزّ وجلّ)'s knowledge and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) didn't grant us the 73rd letter just to demonstrate the difference between the creator and the creation. but we are the "mazher" of the 73rd letter too.

 

you might know Ali raza rizvi?

 

i will post the link if you wish.

 

and i gave and example of the key too.

and the Holy Qur'an clearly mentions that its has the "keys" to the unseen.

 

and Masoomeen (عليه السلام) have the knowledge of thousand books which includes the Holy Qur'an.

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4 minutes ago, 786:) said:

You believe the countless tahreef narrations in there too?

again if i answer this, the topic will divert into the previous discussion we had regarding rijaal. if you want answers for this, go and read on that thread what i accept and what i reject.

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6 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

Masoomeen (عليه السلام) can know whatever they desire from the unseen. and in al kafi its clearly mentioned that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) didn't grant them the 73rd letter to demonstrate the difference between creator and the creation.

Oh really? So why did the Prophet have to wait for wahi for Aisha's innocence? Why could he just not dip into the knowledge of the unseen? Or was this just part of the act as you claim?

 

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19 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

Masoomeen (عليه السلام) can know whatever they desire from the unseen. and in al kafi its clearly mentioned that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) didn't grant them the 73rd letter to demonstrate the difference between creator and the creation.

How does that make 73 = infinity???

Wether the masoomen(عليه السلام) can know whatever they want is another subject, they are still limited and they can't fit the infinite knowlege of Allah(stw) into their limited being.

 

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6 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Oh really? So why did the Prophet have to wait for wahi for Aisha's innocence? Why could he just not dip into the knowledge of the unseen? Or was this just part of the act as you claim?

 

i already gave you an example for this. why didn't the Holy Prophe (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) destroy every opponent present at khaybar with his spiritual power? why did he had to wait for 40 days? he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has the power to split the moon into two , but cant destroy few opponents?

 

and a Narration by Imam as Saadiq (عليه السلام) states,

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) made the Holy prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Marry aisha, so he can test the muslims through her.

 

and if my opinion didn't sufficed you,

then read the verses from surah jinn

 

Say: ‘I don’t know if it is near, what you are being Threatened (with), or 
whether my Lord has Made a term for it [72:25]

(He is) Knower of the unseen, and He does not Reveal His hidden matters upon anyone [72:26]


Except one He Chooses from a Rasool, for He would Make a guard to travel in front of him and from behind him [72:27]


For Him to Know that they have delivered the Messages of their Lord, and He Encompasses whatever is with them, and He Counts the number of all things[72:28]

Ali Bin Ibrahim said, ‘Muhammad Bin Hamaam narrated to us from Ja’far Bin Muhammad Bin Malik, 
from Ja’far Bin Abdullah, from Muhammad Bin Umar, from Abad Bin Saheyb, who has said:


‘Ja’far Bin Muhammad (عليه السلام), from his father:


 ‘They (Quraysh) said, ‘So when will that take place?’ Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Said to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):


 Say: ‘I don’t know if it is near, what you are being Threatened (with), or whether my Lord has Made a term for it [72:25]

 (He is) Knower of the unseen, and He does not Reveal His hidden matters upon anyone [72:26] 


Except one He Chooses from a Rasool, for He would Make a guard to travel in front of him and from behind him [72:27] 


Meaning Ali (عليه السلام), the chosen one from the Rasool, and he (عليه السلام) is from him (prophet).

 

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Said: for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him. 


He (عليه السلام) said:

‘In his (prophet)'s heart is the Knowledge, and one behind him is the guard who knows his Knowledge, and he (Ali) distributes the Knowledge with a distribution, and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Taught him (عليه السلام) by inspiration.

And the guard, is the teacher from the Prophet, For Him to Know [72:28], the Prophet (عليه السلام), that they have delivered the Messages of their Lord, and He – Ali (عليه السلام), 


Encompasses whatever is with the Rasool from the Knowledge, and He 
Counts the number of all things [72:28] – whatever has happened since the day Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Created Adam (عليه السلام) up to the Establishment of the Hour – from either a Fitna, or an earthquake, or a submergence, or eruption, or a community destroyed in the past or would be destroyed in the future, and how may tyrannical or just imams there would be. 


He (عليه السلام) recognises him by his name and his lineage.

And whether one would be dying a (natural) death, or killed by a killing, and how many Imams would be abandoned, not being harmed by the abandonment of the one who abandons him (عليه السلام), and how many Imams (عليه السلام) would be helped, not benefitting by the help of the one who helps him (عليه السلام)’’.

 

(تفسير الق ّمي 2 :389 )

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

i already gave you an example for this. why didn't the Holy Prophe (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) destroy every opponent present at khaybar with his spiritual power? why did he had to wait for 40 days? he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has the power to split the moon into two , but cant destroy few opponents?

Hate to disappoint you, but who said the Prophet could destroy every opponent? Allah tested the Prophet with hardship as well. I think you believe the fairytales off the mimbar. Marvel: Arabia edition.

The miracles of the Prophet were powered by Allah and not of the Prophets own will.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

How does that make 73 = infinity???

Wether the masoomen(عليه السلام) can know whatever they want is another subject, they are still limited and they can't fit the infinite knowlege of Allah(stw) into their limited being.

 

when did i say that the knowledge of Masoomeen (عليه السلام) is infinite? 

i only said that they aren't all knowing because they've been taught.

 

but never forget, they can take as much as knowledge of the unseen they desire. because they've got the keys to it.

 

and just to clarify, in this context knowledge of the unseen means this.

 

The Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Great, the Most High [13:9]

 

Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘My father narrated to me, from Sa’ad Bin Abdullah, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Al Hassan Bin Ali Bin Fazaal, from Sa’albat Bin Maymoun, from one of our companions, 

 


(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic

 

[13:9] The Knower of the unseen and the seen, so he (عليه السلام) said: ‘The unseen – what has not happened yet; and the seen – what has already happened’.

 

ref-

 

معاني اآلخبار: 146 /1.

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2 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

when did i say that the knowledge of Masoomeen (عليه السلام) is infinite? 

i only said that they aren't all knowing because they've been taught.

 

but never forget, they can take as much as knowledge of the unseen they desire. because they've got the keys to it.

 

and just to clarify, in this context knowledge of the unseen means this.

 

The Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Great, the Most High [13:9]

 

Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘My father narrated to me, from Sa’ad Bin Abdullah, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Al Hassan Bin Ali Bin Fazaal, from Sa’albat Bin Maymoun, from one of our companions, 

 


(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic

 

[13:9] The Knower of the unseen and the seen, so he (عليه السلام) said: ‘The 
unseen – what has not happened yet; and the seen – what has already happened’.

 

ref-

 

ssمعاني اآلخبار: 146 /1.

I've never said that you said that, I was talking about how can your earlier statement make 73 = infinity.

The fact that the masomeen(عليه السلام) can have the key to knowlege does not mean that Allah(stw) knowlege is 73, these are 2 unrelated things.

This was my claim, that Allah(stw) knowlege is infinite not a limited number such as 73.

If I remeber correctly the number 72 is an arabic term to mean a lot of things, the nunber 73 could be that they are reffering to the fact that Allah(stw) knowlege is diffirent ie it is infinite this number does not nesessarly have to be taken litterally.

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Hate to disappoint you, but who said the Prophet could destroy every opponent? Allah tested the Prophet with hardship as well. I think you believe the fairytales off the mimbar. Marvel: Arabia edition.

The miracles of the Prophet were powered by Allah and not of the Prophets own will.

who said he couldn't?

 

well the amount of recognition you've got regarding the Masoomeen (عليه السلام) never fails to disappoint me.

 

extract from sermon recognition of noor.

 

Note Aimmah (عليه السلام) themselves inherited the knowledge of RasoolAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). i am writing this so you'd not be left with the excuse that this knowledge only refers to the Imams (عليه السلام)

 

We (Salmaan and Abuzar) said, ‘O Amir Al-Momineen! What is that which He (عزّ وجلّ) has Given you (Imams (عليه السلام)) 
that is more magnificent, and more majestic than all of this?’

 

He (عليه السلام) said;

 

 ‘Our Lord Mighty and Majestic has Given us knowledge of the Magnificent Name (ism e aazam) which if we desire we can pierce the skies and the earth, and the Paradise and the Fire and we can ascend with it to the sky and descend with it to the earth, and to west and east, and end with it to the Throne and sit upon it in front of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic.


And all things obey usasws, even the skies, and the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the animals, and the oceans, and the Paradise, and the Fire.


Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Gave us all of that by the Magnificent Name which He (عزّ وجلّ) Taught us and Specialised us with it; and along with all of it, we eat, and drink, and walk in the markets, and we do these things by the Permission of our Lord

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