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In the Name of God بسم الله

shirk

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3 hours ago, starlight said:

Bismihi ta'ala 

It is very clear that no Muslim says any expression like 'Ya Rasul Allah Madad', or 'Ya Ali Madad', with the slightest of intention that they are equal to Almighty God, or that they will help independently free of any involvement from God.  

Do you believe they help with the power given to them by God, or that they ask God to help you?

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Lanat is a supplication to Allah to withdrew His mercy from a person.    not a an argument bro 

I honestly dislike how complicated people make things. Call to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help. There should be absolutely no debate there. I grew up as a Shi’a and have spent the last year o

Whether it's shirk or not would probably be a topic of debate. I would think no, since you're not associating partners with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). However, I would also say that it has

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3 hours ago, randomly curious said:

@Haydar Husayn didn't i expose your void accusations in the previous posts? i think you arent done yet. let me see if you deny the pure verses from the Holy Qur'an.

 

and let me see if that guy deletes this again or not.

 

Note: i warn you to not to do tafseer by your own will and commit kufr according to the Hadeeth.

 

Those who are expelled from their homes without right only because they are saying, ‘Our Lord is Allah’. And if Allah does not Repel the people, some of them by the others, the Monasteries and Churches, and Synagogues and Masjid would have been demolished, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned a lot. And Allah will Help the one who Helps him, surely Allah is Strong, Mighty 
[22:40]


Why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) asking for help from his creation despite being Al Qadir?


And despite the fact that there is no power nor strength except by Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?


O you those who believe! If you help Allah, He will Help you and Affirm your feet [47:7].

 

Here too, why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) asking help from the one who believes? And in what aspect Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is needy of help from his creation despite being ""Al Samad"?

 

Now see more.

 

And say: ‘Lord! Cause me to enter a correct entrance, and Cause me to go (towards an) exit (that is) a correct exit, and Make for me from Yourself a (Divine) Authority, a persistent helper [17:80]


Why is RasoolAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asking Allah (عزّ وجلّ) to provide a helper beside him? Why didn't he asked Allah (عزّ وجلّ) directly to help him?

 

We had Sent Our Rasools with the clear proofs, and We sent down the Book and the Scale with them, in order for them to establish justice with the people. And We Sent down the iron wherein is severe violence and benefits for the people, and for Allah to Know who helps Him and His Rasool in the secret. Surely Allah is Strong, Mighty [57:25]


Who is the one who helps Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in secret? and why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) himself testifying that there is another Helper besides Him?


According to the "shia" tafseer that's Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))


And why is the Qur'an is justifying to it too?

@Haydar Husayn i assume there are either two possibilities. either the post slipped out of your sight, or May be you're deliberately trying to tackle this?

 

let me quote it so you can read it once again.

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Just now, randomly curious said:

@Haydar Husayn i assume there are either two possibilities. either the post slipped out of your sight, or May be you're deliberately trying to tackle this?

 

let me quote it so you can read it once again.

I'm not replying to your nonsense until you explain why you posted a fabricated translation in an effort to mislead people. Apologise for that, and then I'll reply insha'Allah.

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4 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Do you believe they help with the power given to them by God, or that they ask God to help you?

do you believe Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is asking his creation by his power to help him (despite he is Al Qadir and Al samad) or do you assume there is some other power than Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?

 

well, if you chose the first option, you will be trapped in your own noose. and if you choose the second, then your "thinking" will contradict the verses of the Holy Qur'an.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I'm not replying to your nonsense until you explain why you posted a fabricated translation in an effort to mislead people. Apologise for that, and then I'll reply insha'Allah.

just go on tackling the References. you don't accept Narrations right? what about these verses? and by the way, i just copied that. i cannot even translate a single sentence in arabic. and how is it fabricated while its being super compatible with other so many Narrations i posetd? but that cruel mod deleted the entire post.

 

or you're trying to apply your own criteria? and in a previous thread you claimed that if that Narration about the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asking for help from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would've been authentic, then you would've heard it a million times. is this a brand new criteria you've launched on shiachat for vouching the Narrations?

 

let me see now what would be your"reply" now:hahaha:

Edited by randomly curious
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2 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

just go on tackling the References. you don't accept Narrations right? what about these verses? and by the way, i just copied that. i cannot even translate a single sentence in arabic.

 

let me see now what would be your"reply" now:hahaha:

Ok, and the fact that you rely on such dishonest sources doesn't bother you? Maybe you should ask yourself why those who did translate it felt the need to make things up out of thin air.

Ultimately if you are going to post something here as proof, then take responsibility for it when it turns out to be false.

And I do accept narrations, but I'm not going to accept any rubbish that just happens to have found its way into our books. You have to have some standards when it comes to what you accept in life, and the fact that something is in an old Shia book doesn't make it authentic.

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Just now, Haydar Husayn said:

Ok, and the fact that you rely on such dishonest sources doesn't bother you? Maybe you should ask yourself why those who did translate it felt the need to make things up out of thin air.

Ultimately if you are going to post something here as proof, then take responsibility for it when it turns out to be false.

And I do accept narrations, but I'm not going to accept any rubbish that just happens to have found its way into our books. You have to have some standards when it comes to what you accept in life, and the fact that something is in an old Shia book doesn't make it authentic.

wait bro, you don't need to deviate the topic. all i am asking you to answer regarding the post I've quoted. did it slip out of your sight once again? do you want me to quote it once again?

 

or else why don't you confess that you've left with no answers? and why don't you declare to close the thread?

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4 hours ago, randomly curious said:

@Haydar Husayn didn't i expose your void accusations in the previous posts? i think you arent done yet. let me see if you deny the pure verses from the Holy Qur'an.

 

and let me see if that guy deletes this again or not.

 

Note: i warn you to not to do tafseer by your own will and commit kufr according to the Hadeeth.

 

Those who are expelled from their homes without right only because they are saying, ‘Our Lord is Allah’. And if Allah does not Repel the people, some of them by the others, the Monasteries and Churches, and Synagogues and Masjid would have been demolished, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned a lot. And Allah will Help the one who Helps him, surely Allah is Strong, Mighty 
[22:40]


Why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) asking for help from his creation despite being Al Qadir?


And despite the fact that there is no power nor strength except by Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?


O you those who believe! If you help Allah, He will Help you and Affirm your feet [47:7].

 

Here too, why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) asking help from the one who believes? And in what aspect Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is needy of help from his creation despite being ""Al Samad"?

 

Now see more.

 

And say: ‘Lord! Cause me to enter a correct entrance, and Cause me to go (towards an) exit (that is) a correct exit, and Make for me from Yourself a (Divine) Authority, a persistent helper [17:80]


Why is RasoolAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asking Allah (عزّ وجلّ) to provide a helper beside him? Why didn't he asked Allah (عزّ وجلّ) directly to help him?

 

We had Sent Our Rasools with the clear proofs, and We sent down the Book and the Scale with them, in order for them to establish justice with the people. And We Sent down the iron wherein is severe violence and benefits for the people, and for Allah to Know who helps Him and His Rasool in the secret. Surely Allah is Strong, Mighty [57:25]


Who is the one who helps Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in secret? and why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) himself testifying that there is another Helper besides Him?


According to the "shia" tafseer that's Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))


And why is the Qur'an is justifying to it too?

@Haydar Husayn this is the post. can you read it now? or would you believe in it after i quote it a million times according to your criteria?

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Posted (edited)

@Haydar Husayn and yeah, once again i warn you to not to do tafseer according to your own will. if you'd do so, i won't see any difference between you and a kaafir. (that's not me by the way, the Narrations states this)

 

if you got any tafseer by Masoomeen (عليه السلام) bring them.

Edited by randomly curious
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Posted (edited)

@Haydar Husayn and yeah, if you bring verses which states do not call anyone other than Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and similar to this, obviously that would be reffering to the idols whom the polytheists call. because  the Holy Qur'an cannot contradict the Holy Qur'an. similarly when Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says that there would be no walis besides him, again, it refers to the false manmade Gods.

because ayat e wilayat [5:55] cannot contradict the Holy Qur'an.

 

so similarly you'll Have to accept these verses. "willingly or unwillingly"

Edited by randomly curious
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@randomly curious

Instead of posting a bunch of random verses and asking me questions about them, why don't you make an actual argument. Tell me explicitly what you are trying to prove by posting them.

And please stop posting the same long message over and over like a crazy person.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

@randomly curious

Instead of posting a bunch of random verses and asking me questions about them, why don't you make an actual argument. Tell me explicitly what you are trying to prove by posting them.

And please stop posting the same long message over and over like a crazy person.

are you trying to imply that you've ran out of answers by posting this?

 

i am trying to prove that asking for help someone besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ) doesn't happens to become shirk as per your thinking.

 

because the verses i quoted, one amongst them clearly states that theres someone who is Helping Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and His Rasool (saws) in secret. and clearly according to the tafseer its none other than Mawla Ali (عليه السلام).

 

i am posting those long messages just to invalidate and eradicate your idiotic beliefs which you are somehow trying to propagate wihtout any basis.

 

and that's the main reason i keep yelling tearing up my throat, that derive a belief after keeping everything in front.

 

and if we act as per your logic, then we Have to (Nauzubillah) deny ayat e wilayat and only rely upon the verses in which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) states that there wont be any wali besides Allah (عزّ وجلّ). 

 

but rather we believers will keep ayat e wilayat in front of us too for deriving a belief.

 

and until now I've only posted the verses from the Holy Qur'an. if i post Narrations, you won't accept it. because you wouldn't Have heard them a million times according to your criteria for vouching the Narrations.

Edited by randomly curious
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I never said we can’t ask anyone for help apart from Allah. Why would I say something so stupid?

What I am arguing is that Allah commands us not to invoke any supernatural beings (real or imagined) other than Him. That’s crystal clear from the Qur’an, and I recently posted narrations from the Imams in another thread emphasising how important it is to supplicants to Allah for small things or big things.

Believing this doesn’t in any way, shape or form contradict any other verse of the Qur’an. If you want to argue it means something else than what it clearly says, then bring your tafsir from the Imams. Where did they teach the explanation you are giving?

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Just now, Haydar Husayn said:

I never said we can’t ask anyone for help apart from Allah. Why would I say something so stupid?

What I am arguing is that Allah commands us not to invoke any supernatural beings (real or imagined) other than Him. That’s crystal clear from the Qur’an, and I recently posted narrations from the Imams in another thread emphasising how important it is to supplicants to Allah for small things or big things.

Believing this doesn’t in any way, shape or form contradict any other verse of the Qur’an. If you want to argue it means something else than what it clearly says, then bring your tafsir from the Imams. Where did they teach the explanation you are giving?

Lol the Hypocrisy:hahaha:

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Posted (edited)

and didn't you create this entire thread just to refute this Narration saying its not authentic just because you hadn't heard it a million times?

 

 

 

Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prepared for the battle of Tabook, appointed Maola Ali (s.a.) his Khalifa in Madina and left. Defeat and disgrace was in the fate of the army. Jibraeel ((عليه السلام).) came down and revealed: ‘Ya Nabi Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) certainly Allah is saying Salaam to you and is giving you the good news of victory, but you have the choice that if you wish Angels can come down to murder, and if you wish then call Ali (s.a.) he can come.’ So Nabi (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) chose Ali (s.a.),

 

then Jibraeel ((عليه السلام).) said:

 

‘Turn your face towards Madina and call: Ya Abal Ghais Adrikni Ya Ali Adrikni Ya Ali (s.a.).’ In short, Maola Ali (s.a.) heard the call of Rasool Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.) in Madina and said: ‘Labbaik, I am coming.’ And took Salman with, Salman stepped on the foot steps of Maola Ali (s.a.), after seventeen steps found himself in the battle field  along with Maola Ali (s.a.). Allah gave victory through Maola Ali (s.a.) and this verse was revealed: ‘And Allah sufficed the believers in murdering’ (al Ahzaab 25)


(al Qatra, V 1, P 193)

 

and despite the fact i gave you this Narration and proved its compatibility to you from the verses of the Holy Qur'an

 

H 33344 – And from Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Abdullah Bin Muhammad, from Ali Ibn Al Hakam, from Aban Bin Usman, from Abdullah Bin Abu Ya’four who said that it was narrated to him from Al Husayn Bin Abu Al A’la, who was present with Ibn Abu Ya’four in this gathering, says:

‘I asked Abu Abd Allah (عليه السلام) about the differences in Hadith, narrated from one whom we trust and from those whom we do not trust’. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘If a Hadith is referred to you and you find a witness for it from the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) or from the statements of the Messenger of Allah (saww), then its authentic, otherwise give it back to the one who brought it’. (Wasail ul Shia, H. 33344)

 

 

Edited by randomly curious
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5 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

or May be you're just trying to flee asap because your own statement says completely different by what you just said?

No, you just don’t understand what I said. Nobody with even one functioning brain cell could ever think the Qur’an is telling people not to call on other human beings. Literally nobody has ever thought that, not even the most literalist of the literalists. The only people who think such things live in the minds of the pro-istighatha brigade who in their desperation to avoid the obvious meaning of the Qur’an make up these ridiculous straw men, and then puff out their chests when they knock them down. Unfortunately some others who should know better also get taken in by this nonsense, probably out of deference to the authority of the ones making the argument.

Given the fact that I often make the mistake of crediting people with actually having at least one function brain cell, I don’t feel the need to point out that when I say the Qur’an says not to call on other than Allah, it obvious isn’t talking about calling your doctor! But from now on I’ll be sure to make that mistake again.

But seriously, it’s a terrible argument. Stop using it.

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2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I’m amazed you would want to remind people of that thread. Don’t you understand that it doesn’t make you look good?

although I've exposed your Hypocrisy, but i wish you would've understood at that time that it didn't made you look good either.

lets close this.

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5 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Brother, no where in Quran Allah says don't pray in Farsi, urdu or other languages but teaches the conditions of prayers. So, this is illogical point. 

You misunderstood 'foreign addition'. By foreign I mean it's a man made concept that one cannot find in the supplications of our aimmah (عليه السلام). 

In the end, those who want to supplicate as the aimmah (عليه السلام) taught us will do so. Those who want to make up their own method will do so (although I don't see why someone would abandon the supplications transmitted to us by the aimmah and make up their own method instead). 

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9 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So if a Christian believes Jesus to be divine, prays to him, and even calls him God,

These are Godly attributes.... 

9 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

But what I find confusing is this idea that in order to commit shirk, you have to believe the god you are worshipping is exactly like God.

If they have Godly qualities and the same status as God then that’s shirk. 

9 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Qur'an that refers to the Arabs as being guilty of shirk,

They prayed to the idols and made them partners with Allah. Making something a partner with Allah despite its nature is still shirk. 

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6 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

You misunderstood 'foreign addition'. By foreign I mean it's a man made concept that one cannot find in the supplications of our aimmah (عليه السلام). 

In the end, those who want to supplicate as the aimmah (عليه السلام) taught us will do so. Those who want to make up their own method will do so (although I don't see why someone would abandon the supplications transmitted to us by the aimmah and make up their own method instead). 

Well, as I already told you. Dua is not limited to one method but conditions are limited. So, if you do not patience like our Imams to make a dua as they did such that in their duas whole nights were passed, even then God accepts your little duas. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) built them on His love and we have our Nafs that tires us. So, if you cannot recite dua-e-Kumail, every five prayers then even one sentence is enough. But, intercession is also part of our Deen to whom these names refers to, and since one can take name of Prophet Muhammad in grief for he may intercede for them, name of every prophet or Aimah can be taken. Don't adopt way of shaitan bro, I'm superior, I talk to boss directly. Boss listens to intercession. Don't call Ya Muhammad Adrikni on Judgement day but say to Allah (عزّ وجلّ), may I talk to you directly about which Allah says:"Allah will not speak to sinners on judgement day". So, if you pure as Prophet Muhammad bro then you can do anything. I'm a sinner and I seek intercession as directed by Allah.

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@Flying_Eagle like I said, the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) have taught us how to supplicate (long and short supplications) in the same way as they have taught us so many other things. I strive to try and follow their teachings.

If you want to do things differently then it's your decision, I prefer to follow what has been taught by our guides (عليه السلام)

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14 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

@Flying_Eagle like I said, the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) have taught us how to supplicate (long and short supplications) in the same way as they have taught us so many other things. I strive to try and follow their teachings.

If you want to do things differently then it's your decision, I prefer to follow what has been taught by our guides (عليه السلام)

I'm not doing things differently that's your misunderstanding. I already gave you plenty of evidence, just bring one hadith which says Sahaba who took name "Wa Muhammada" so that Prophet Mubammad ask Allah to reduce their grief and console them-is wrong, I will gradually accept your point. 

But if you can't, and know that intercession is part of our religion and that Prophet and Aimah are Shaheed and you call them as a living person, you show back to these verses then please. Don't give twist and turns and come back with same argument. Quran does not limit intercession to Prophet till he is alive show me any verse which says don't go to Prophet after death and seek wasilah.

You seek wasilah of stones of Hazrat Ibrahim but disregard prophets. How wonderful of you. Why do Sae and tawaf? Of stone made buildings and kiss Hajr-e-Aswad just deny it. And, God will show you respect when you die. Know that to Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Ibrahim's sincerity is more previous then Kaaba. So, God will show you respect while you accept intercession of Kaba but not those who protected it. 

Edited by Flying_Eagle
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You do Hajj which is Tawassul of Ibrahim, but you say Allah dislikes if someone says Ya Ibrahim Madad. Make dua bro and say to Allah, I dislike cirmumbulating kaba, it's like saying Ya Ibrahim Madad. You are in tawassul everytime, Quran is given by means of Muhammad deny it. Imam Ali's narrations on jurisprudence and judicial and political narrations are tawassul. Deny them, make you own Deen and seek Allah directly if you are so sure about your piety. 

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

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On 8/5/2020 at 11:41 PM, Kalepaceh said:

Can anybody tell me why saying "Ya Ali madad" isn't shirk?

Have you understood what is "shirk"? 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

. I already gave you plenty of evidence, just bring one hadith which says Sahaba who took name "Wa Muhammada" so that Prophet Mubammad ask Allah to reduce their grief and console them-is wrong, I will gradually accept your point. 

Like I mentioned before 'wa Muhammada' has nothing to do with intercession. It is an expression of mourning. Anyhow, even if this was your argument since when did we follow the sunnah of the sahaba? They also prayed taraweeh during the time of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), without him stopping them, but we follow the ahlulbayt and not others. 

32 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

But if you can't, and know that intercession is part of our religion and that Prophet and Aimah are Shaheed and you call them as a living person, you show back to these verses then please

Indeed they are shuhada. This is not the topic of debate. 

32 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Don't give twist and turns and come back with same argument

There's nothing to twist and turn, the point is very simple. We pray how the ma'soomeen taught us to, we supplicate how they taught us and in general we refer to their teachings for every aspect that they have covered. 

32 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

You seek wasilah of stones of Hazrat Ibrahim but disregard prophets. How wonderful of you. Why do Sae and tawaf?

Because we are instructed to do so in the Qur'an and in narrations from the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

19 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

You do Hajj which is Tawassul of Ibrahim, but you say Allah dislikes if someone says Ya Ibrahim Madad. Make dua bro and say to Allah, I dislike cirmumbulating kaba, it's like saying Ya Ibrahim Madad.

We perform hajj because it was commanded in the Qur'an and the narrations of the Ahlulbayt. 

I don't know where you get the idea that hajj = seeking help from Ibrahim (عليه السلام). Certainly not from the Qur'an or the ahlulbayt since neither have made such a claim. 

 

19 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

You are in tawassul everytime, Quran is given by means of Muhammad deny it. Imam Ali's narrations on jurisprudence and judicial and political narrations are tawassul. Deny them, make you own Deen and seek Allah directly if you are so sure about your piety. 

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

Certainly the Qur'an was revealed through the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and certainly Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has given us teachings on fiqh, aqaaid, supplication and many other things. This is why we follow the supplications that they (عليه السلام) have taught us. 

If I wanted to make my own deen then I would be inventing different methods of supplication rather than those that our aimmah (عليه السلام) taught us. 

Edited by Mahdavist
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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Like I mentioned before 'wa Muhammada' has nothing to do with intercession. It is an expression of mourning. Anyhow, even if this was your argument since when did we follow the sunnah of the sahaba? They also prayed taraweeh during the time of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), without him stopping them, but we follow the ahlulbayt and not others. 

Imam al-Baqir (‘a) and Imam al-Sadiq (‘a) were asked about the permissibility of praying optional prayers in congregation during the nights of Ramadan. They both narrated a tradition of the Prophet (s) where he said:

• “Verily, the offering of nafila (recommended prayers) in congregation during the nights of Ramadan is an innovation… O people! do not say nafila prayers of Ramadan in congregation…. Without doubt, performing a minor act of worship which is according to the sunna is better than performing a major act of worship which is an innovation.”

This is about Tarawih. And, about Tawasul whom you deny, there is mention of it in Quran. And verses of Quran says seek the most pious among you to pray for you. Which is both agreed by Sahaba, Imams and Quran. There is no where in Quran or in Ahadith that Imams stops you to say Ya Ali Madad with the Niyah of intercession. So, I consider your remarks to be invalid with regards to Quran and Sunnah. 

2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

We pray how the ma'soomeen taught us to, we supplicate how they taught us and in general we refer to their teachings for every aspect that they have covered. 

They did not stop you from saying Ya Ali Madad or Ya Muhammad Madad, did they? Or did they say that prayers have fixed words. Show me where they say it? A dua has only one condition that is intent, it's not like salah that you can only say in Arabic not in urdu or add your complaints and ask for solutions. You can check Quran and hadith about that. 

 

2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

We perform hajj because it was commanded in the Qur'an and the narrations of the Ahlulbayt. 

I don't know where you get the idea that hajj = seeking help from Ibrahim (عليه السلام). Certainly not from the Qur'an or the ahlulbayt since neither have made such a claim. 

So, you mean you are not indebted to Ibrahim (عليه السلام), for their sincerity and devotion for which even Allah (عزّ وجلّ) wants them to be commemorated through Hajj. 

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) reminds you Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to take help from his lessons and you say I don't know, I dont know. At least be thankful to Hazrat Ibrahim's good traits who is teaching you how to be patient. 

Did not Prophet (PBUHHP) said to Hazrat Abu Bakar: "Zikr of Ali is ibadah". And, you are feeling strange if someone says Ya Ali Madad. While intercession is openly mentioned and you can under the direction of Quran ask Imam Ali's Madad to pray for you like children of Yaqoob asked their help for prayer. 

Even after these things, you have issue then perhaps we belong to two different schools of thought. 

You keep hiding behind the veil of Ahlebait, I keep saying what Quran says. 

Wasallam

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1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

This is about Tarawih. And, about Tawasul whom you deny, there is mention of it in Quran.

I didn't deny tawassul, I simply said that I supplicate in the way that the aimmah (عليه السلام) taught us. You seem to have an issue with that, although I don't know why any Shi'a would.

1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

There is no where in Quran or in Ahadith that Imams stops you to say Ya Ali Madad with the Niyah of intercession

I am not looking for what's absent in the Qur'an, what interests me as an aspiring Shi'i is what is present in it and in the teachings of the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام)

1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

They did not stop you from saying Ya Ali Madad or Ya Muhammad Madad, did they? Or did they say that prayers have fixed words. Show me where they say it?

Like I mentioned, what interests me is how they supplicated and we know this through the supplications that they (عليه السلام) passed down to us. It is you who chooses to follow a later model of supplication which the aimmah (عليه السلام) didn't teach. 

1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

So, you mean you are not indebted to Ibrahim (عليه السلام), for their sincerity and devotion for which even Allah (عزّ وجلّ) wants them to be commemorated through Hajj. 

What has any if this got to do with 'ya Ibrahim madad'? The talbiyah that has been passed down to us for the hajj is as follows:

Labbayk, Allahumma labbayk

Labbayka la shareeka laka labbayk

Innal hamda wal ni'mata laka wal mulk

La shareeka laka labbayk

 

And somehow from all of this you get: 'Ya Ibrahim Madad'

1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Even after these things, you have issue then perhaps we belong to two different schools of thought. 

I already told you before brother, the school of thought I believe in takes it's teachings from the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt. 

You can feel free to supplicate to who you want and how you want, I will continue to supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the way taught by the aimmah (عليه السلام). If you have an objection to it then your problem is with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the teachings of the ma'soomeen. 

I don't understand why anyone would object to supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and referring to the guidance of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

You keep hiding behind the veil of Ahlebait, I keep saying what Quran says. 

Alhamdulillah there can be no greater honour than to stand behind the veil of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). InshaAllah one day you will also be guided to it. 

You might need to check your copy of the Qur'an more carefully though, to locate the verse that equates hajj to supplicating to Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and asks you to supplicate to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I didn't deny tawassul, I simply said that I supplicate in the way that the aimmah (عليه السلام) taught us. You seem to have an issue with that, although I don't know why any Shi'a would.

I am not looking for what's absent in the Qur'an, what interests me as an aspiring Shi'i is what is present in it and in the teachings of the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام)

Like I mentioned, what interests me is how they supplicated and we know this through the supplications that they (عليه السلام) passed down to us. It is you who chooses to follow a later model of supplication which the aimmah (عليه السلام) didn't teach. 

What has any if this got to do with 'ya Ibrahim madad'? The talbiyah that has been passed down to us for the hajj is as follows:

Labbayk, Allahumma labbayk

Labbayka la shareeka laka labbayk

Innal hamda wal ni'mata laka wal mulk

La shareeka laka labbayk

 

And somehow from all of this you get: 'Ya Ibrahim Madad'

I already told you before brother, the school of thought I believe in takes it's teachings from the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt. 

You can feel free to supplicate to who you want and how you want, I will continue to supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the way taught by the aimmah (عليه السلام). If you have an objection to it then your problem is with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the teachings of the ma'soomeen. 

I don't understand why anyone would object to supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and referring to the guidance of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

Alhamdulillah there can be no greater honour than to stand behind the veil of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). InshaAllah one day you will also be guided to it. 

You might need to check your copy of the Qur'an more carefully though, to locate the verse that equates hajj to supplicating to Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and asks you to supplicate to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

The problem is you come up with issues with "Ya Ali Madad", then blame me to choose this or that!

Amazing answer. The words of Aimah are more beautiful but saying dua with different words  not opposed by Islam and with good intention is acceptable. 

I choose both if I dont remember dua of a prophet or by Imam. 

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1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

The problem is you come up with issues with "Ya Ali Madad", then blame me to choose this or that!

I never came up with the issue, I simply informed the brother who opened the thread that this practice doesn't come from our aimmah (عليه السلام). 

1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Amazing answer. The words of Aimah are more beautiful but saying dua with different words  not opposed by Islam and with good intention is acceptable. 

Like I said, if you want to follow your own methodology then it's your choice.  

You could have simply said this in the beginning instead of having a strange rant about how hajj is about calling on Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) for help and how supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is somehow an 'ungrateful' and arrogant act (despite hundreds of verses and narrations telling us to do so).

Truly incredible. 

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

I never came up with the issue, I simply informed the brother who opened the thread that this practice doesn't come from our aimmah (عليه السلام). 

Like I said, if you want to follow your own methodology then it's your choice.  

You could have simply said this in the beginning instead of having a strange rant about how hajj is about calling on Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) for help and how supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is somehow an 'ungrateful' and arrogant act (despite hundreds of verses and narrations telling us to do so).

Truly incredible. 

Well, you are arrogant brother, I won't console your heart by saying you lie. Since you think that you know Niyah of the people when they say ya Ali Madad, while Allah says the secrets of heart are known to me. Sidelining importance of intercession without which you never know Islam. I didn't say God doesn't listen prayer of an ordinary person when he solely calls upon him. But God definitely distaste one who tries to say he knows what people have in heart and don't call by intercession. 

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2 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Since you think that you know Niyah of the people when they say ya Ali Madad, while Allah says the secrets of heart are known to me.

I never commented on their niyah, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Sidelining importance of intercession without which you never know Islam

I have no reason to sideline it, the aimmah (عليه السلام) have already clarified this in narrations where they describe who they will intercede for.

4 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

I didn't say God doesn't listen prayer of an ordinary person when he solely calls upon him.

I know you didn't, rather you seemed to consider it an 'ungrateful' and arrogant act. Truly strange. 

5 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

But God definitely distaste one who tries to say he knows what people have in heart and don't call by intercession. 

I don't see the relevance of this comment since 'what is in the heart' was not something I discussed.

As for God disliking people who don't call upon others than Him, this is your own claim. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made no such claim. 

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