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In the Name of God بسم الله

shirk

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3 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

No, it's a term used for mourning. 'Oh Muhammad' would be 'ya Muhammad' ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Whatever, but they are calling Prophet Muhammad so are you saying they were either ill or mistaken but you know everything.

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Lanat is a supplication to Allah to withdrew His mercy from a person.    not a an argument bro 

I honestly dislike how complicated people make things. Call to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help. There should be absolutely no debate there. I grew up as a Shi’a and have spent the last year o

Whether it's shirk or not would probably be a topic of debate. I would think no, since you're not associating partners with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). However, I would also say that it has

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Posted (edited)

@786:) there are literally so many Narrations in which Masoomeen (عليه السلام) said don't call us God then say anything in our praises still you wont reach the limits of our merits.

or let me say, we do Have a Narration in which Masoomeen (عليه السلام) said we Narrate Hadeetg according to the intellects of the person.

 

so basically yes, in few Narrations Masoomeen (عليه السلام) said, don't call us God then say anything in our praises. in few Narrations Masoomeen (عليه السلام) said, believe we Have a creator then say anything in our praises. and in this very Narration which i posted Mawla (عليه السلام) said, consider us as creations, then say anything in out praises.

Edited by randomly curious
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1 minute ago, randomly curious said:

 

Ghuluw is calling Masoomeen (عليه السلام) God. thats all.

 

That is all I needed to know. lol

Last question, is it ghuluw to say Imams are just like Allah, but not Allah?

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Just now, 786:) said:

That is all I needed to know. lol

Last question, is it ghuluw to say Imams are just like Allah, but not Allah?

That is all Masoomeen (عليه السلام) informed us. lol.

 

Let me ask one too then, 

will you reject the credible Narrations which mentiones the merits of Masoomeen (عليه السلام)?

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In last before leaving shiachat, I would present another hadith 

The Messenger of Allah once said to Anas, his servant boy, “My son, if you are able to always be on ablution, then do so, for the angel of death when he seizes the servant’s soul while the latter is in ablution, he records martyrdom for him.”

Majority of Islamic sects believe that Prophet was Shaheed and same is the belief of Shias and also the Imsms were Shaheed. So, Quran says a Shaheed to be alive. Thus, if we say Ya Ali Madad or Ya Hussain Madad, we request them to intercede for us. 

And as you can see even the person who dies in ablation is like a Shaheed and one hadith one who dies with desire if martyrdom is Shaheed. Then all these points prove your arguments weak. 

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You and I have fundamental disagreements on Tahweed. You consider Imams can be just like Allah--I think this is blatant shirk. There is no reason to discuss narrations as narrations need to be judged on our fundamental understandings first.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

But they worshipped them and made idols out of them, which are all forms of association with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Yes, but one of the ways they worshipped them was by supplicating to them. So even without the idols it would still have been shirk.

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. (42:11)

This nothing includes Imams.

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3 minutes ago, 786:) said:

[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. (42:11)

This nothing includes Imams.

i will take further all your posts by replying, but @Mahdavist this guy always deletes my hundreds of posts in one strike. even the verses and Narrations i posted here, he removed them and says it has nothing to do with the topic. like seriously? and the very same guy will fish reactions by posting stuff which has nothing to do with the thread.

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Posted (edited)

Side note, am I the only one perplexed about having to defend the oneness of Allah and his attributes? I cannot believe this. This individual literally accepted Allah and Imams are just alike, but we cannot refer to Imams as Allah.

Either the ulema are doing a poor job of emphasizing the Quran to the Shia awaam or this is just a one off case.

Edited by 786:)
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11 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Then all these points prove your arguments weak. 

The argument is simple: we supplicate in the way that the ma'soomeen taught us to in the Qur'an and in the supplications that they left behind for us. 

If following the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt is a weak argument then we probably have different definitions of 'weak' 

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15 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Yes, but one of the ways they worshipped them was by supplicating to them. So even without the idols it would still have been shirk.

One has to then define the line between supplicating and not supplicating. If I ask you to help me out, am I supplicating to you? Obviously not.

This is why I say one doesn't need to try and demonstrate that istigatha is necessarily shirk. It is sufficient to point out that it has no basis in the teachings of our madhab. 

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

The argument is simple: we supplicate in the way that the ma'soomeen taught us to in the Qur'an and in the supplications that they left behind for us. 

If following the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt is a weak argument then we probably have different definitions of 'weak' 

Quran says: "Seek intercession". To whom you oppose where are you following Quran here? Did Quran say ask Prophet to pray when he is alive not after death? 

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4 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Quran says: "Seek intercession". To whom you oppose where are you following Quran here? Did Quran say ask Prophet to pray when he is alive not after death? 

If you can present the verses you are referring to we can discuss further inshaAllah. 

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45 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

@786:) as for Masoomeen (عليه السلام) knowing the secrets in the heart,

Rameela’s Tradition1

الحسن بن علي بن النعمان عن أبيه عن الشامي عن أبي داود السبيعي عن أبي سعيد الخدري عن رميلة قال: وعكت وعكا شديدا في زمان
أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فوجدت من نفسي خفة في يوم الجمعة، وقلت: لا أعرف شيئا أفضل من أن أفيض على نفسي من الماء
واصلي خلف أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ففعلت، ثم جئت إلى المسجد، فلما صعد أمير المؤمنين المنبر عاد علي ذلك الوعك. فلما
انصرف أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ودخل القصر دخلت معه فقال: يا رميلة رأيتك وأنت متشبك بعضك في بعض فقلت: نعم، وقصصت
عليه القصة التي آنت فيها والذي حملني على الرغبة في الصلاة خلفه، فقال: يا رميلة ليس من مؤمن يمرض إلا مرضنا بمرضه ولا
يحزن إلا حزنا بحزنه ولا يدعو إلا آمنا لدعائه ولا يسكت إلا دعونا له. فقلت له: يا أمير المؤمنين جعلني االله فداك هذا لمن معك في
القصر أرأيت من آان في أطراف الارض ؟ قال: يا رميلة ليس يغيب عنا مؤمن في شرق الارض ولا في غيرها


It is written in ‘Kitabul Irshad’ that Hamran bin Aan heard from Qasim bin Mohammed bin Abu Bakr who narrates from Rameela, who was very close and devout companion of Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام) . 

Rameela: once on a Friday, during the time of Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام),I had very high fever, which took away my strength but cleansed and elevated me spiritually. I was feeling extremely pious and blessed. At that moment, I thought, the best I could do is to take a bath and go to mosque in order to recite salat in the leadership of Amir-ul-Momaneensws. I acted upon my intuition and read salat behind Amir-ul-Momaneensws but when my Molasws went to pulpit to deliver sermon, my fever, out of sudden, shot-up again. When Amir-ul Momaneen (عليه السلام) left the Mosque, subsequent to finishing the sermon, I started following my Master, after a short while, Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام) turned towards me and said:

I find you overwhelmed by doubts, regarding some of your affairs, which are troubling you due to your fever. Did you not talk to yourself about taking a bath and coming out to recite Friday prayers behind me but when I was reciting sermon your fever shot-up and you started regretting your decision. 

Rameela: By Allah (عزّ وجلّ), Ya Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام), you portrayed my thoughts word by word, without addition or omission of a single word. 

O Rameela! There is not a single instant that a momin or a momina suffers from an illness and I am not affected by it. And it is not possible if someone is grieved and I do not share his misery and I say Amen! upon hearing his prayer, I keep on praying for him even after he seizes to pray for himself. 

Rameela: You are very kind to all those who are with you and live in this city. But, how about those who live far away from here? 

O Rameela! There is not a single ‘momin’ or ‘momina’ who is obscured from us, regardless of where they live, they call upon us and we protect them, wherever they are, in the East or in the West.

Al Basair p.259

Basa'ir is full of weird stuff, and nobody denies that there are many narrations that promote ghuluw. This was a problem with Shi'ism from early on, and the Imams talked about this.

Anyway, this is a dishonest translation. The last sentence says: يا رميلة ليس يغيب عنا مؤمن في شرق الارض ولا في غيرها

Nowhere does that contain "they call upon us and we protect them". Why the need to lie?

Aside from that, the hadith is weak.

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3 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

If you can present the verses you are referring to we can discuss further inshaAllah. 

[Shakir 63:5] And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.

how are you different from them?

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1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Basa'ir is full of weird stuff, and nobody denies that there are many narrations that promote ghuluw. This was a problem with Shi'ism from early on, and the Imams talked about this.

Anyway, this is a dishonest translation. The last sentence says: يا رميلة ليس يغيب عنا مؤمن في شرق الارض ولا في غيرها

Nowhere does that contain "they call upon us and we protect them". Why the need to lie?

Aside from that, the hadith is weak.

sure mate,everything you both cannot consume turns out to be weak and fabricated for you people.:hahaha:

 

why don't you and that guy become a brand new Calibre for vouching Narrations? if you both accept it, its authentic. if you both reject it, its weak.

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8 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

One has to then define the line between supplicating and not supplicating. If I ask you to help me out, am I supplicating to you? Obviously not.

This is why I say one doesn't need to try and demonstrate that istigatha is necessarily shirk. It is sufficient to point out that it has no basis in the teachings of our madhab. 

Outside of these discussions, we all know what supplicating is and isn't. We could also use the word 'invoke'. Just like when we say 'istighatha', we all know what we are talking about.

When you call on someone in the same way you would a deity,you are supplicating. When you call on someone like you would your friend, you aren't. It's very simple, and everyone in the world understands this outside of members of monotheistic religions that have to justify why they are supplicating to other than God.

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3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

[Shakir 63:5] And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.

how are you different from them?

I'm not seeing the link between following the teachings of our ma'soomeen and the verse you mentioned. When did anyone refuse that the prophet should pray for our forgiveness? 

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1 minute ago, randomly curious said:

sure mate,everything you both cannot consume turns out to be weak and fabricated for you people.:hahaha:

 

why don't you and that guy become a brand new Calibre for vouching Narrations? if you both accept it, its authentic. if you both reject it, its weak.

When you've just been caught posting fake translations, I think it's best to remain silent.

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3 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

sure mate,everything you both cannot consume turns out to be weak and fabricated for you people.:hahaha:

 

why don't you and that guy become a brand new Calibre for vouching Narrations? if you both accept it, its authentic. if you both reject it, its weak.

You have failed to provide your own basis for accepting/rejecting narrations. 

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

I'm not seeing the link between following the teachings of our ma'soomeen and the verse you mentioned. When did anyone refuse that the prophet should pray for our forgiveness? 

So what we do when we call upon Ya Ali Madad, how is this against the aforesaid verse? The only think that matters is what is your Niyah while you take Ahlebait's name. I don't know why have you forgotten the hadith "Acts depends on Niyah". 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

So what we do when we call upon Ya Ali Madad, how is this against the aforesaid verse? The only think that matters is what is your Niyah while you take Ahlebait's name. I don't know why have you forgotten the hadith "Acts depends on Niyah". 

What has 'Ya Ali Madad' (which by the way is not even grammatically correct in arabic) got to do with the invitation to the hypocrites for the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to pray for their forgiveness?

Also which hadith are you referring to? Please share it. 

Edited by Mahdavist
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@Haydar Husayn didn't i expose your void accusations in the previous posts? i think you arent done yet. let me see if you deny the pure verses from the Holy Qur'an.

 

and let me see if that guy deletes this again or not.

 

Note: i warn you to not to do tafseer by your own will and commit kufr according to the Hadeeth.

 

Those who are expelled from their homes without right only because they are saying, ‘Our Lord is Allah’. And if Allah does not Repel the people, some of them by the others, the Monasteries and Churches, and Synagogues and Masjid would have been demolished, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned a lot. And Allah will Help the one who Helps him, surely Allah is Strong, Mighty 
[22:40]


Why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) asking for help from his creation despite being Al Qadir?


And despite the fact that there is no power nor strength except by Allah (عزّ وجلّ)?


O you those who believe! If you help Allah, He will Help you and Affirm your feet [47:7].

 

Here too, why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) asking help from the one who believes? And in what aspect Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is needy of help from his creation despite being ""Al Samad"?

 

Now see more.

 

And say: ‘Lord! Cause me to enter a correct entrance, and Cause me to go (towards an) exit (that is) a correct exit, and Make for me from Yourself a (Divine) Authority, a persistent helper [17:80]


Why is RasoolAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asking Allah (عزّ وجلّ) to provide a helper beside him? Why didn't he asked Allah (عزّ وجلّ) directly to help him?

 

We had Sent Our Rasools with the clear proofs, and We sent down the Book and the Scale with them, in order for them to establish justice with the people. And We Sent down the iron wherein is severe violence and benefits for the people, and for Allah to Know who helps Him and His Rasool in the secret. Surely Allah is Strong, Mighty [57:25]


Who is the one who helps Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in secret? and why is Allah (عزّ وجلّ) himself testifying that there is another Helper besides Him?


According to the "shia" tafseer that's Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))


And why is the Qur'an is justifying to it too?

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

What has 'Ya Ali Madad' (which by the way is not even grammatically correct in arabic) got to do with the invitation to the hypocrites for the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to pray for their forgiveness?

Lolz, I think you dont want to understand. I'm saying  when most of us say "Ya Ali Madad" we ask Imam Ali to pray to Allah for our help. So, whether you say in full sentence or in phrase we mean Imam Ali or Rasol-Allah (s) to pray for us. So, why they look wrong to you? 

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Bismihi ta'ala 

It is very clear that no Muslim says any expression like 'Ya Rasul Allah Madad', or 'Ya Ali Madad', with the slightest of intention that they are equal to Almighty God, or that they will help independently free of any involvement from God.  

If, for argument sake, someone was to say anything like this, and believe that a Prophet, an Imam or a saint can within their own power independent from God they are performing Shirk, and this is forbidden and condemned. 

But, if we were to seek intercession, or help, or call to any of God's creation, alive or dead, who have an exceptional status in the eyes of Almighty God and they be granted this position from God, then it is not Shirk, not is it a contradiction. 

We seek forgiveness from Almighty God, but also in the Quran the Almighty says that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can forgive us as well (Surah al-Nisa`, verse 64). We can also make reference to the story of Prophet Ya'qub ((عليه السلام).) and his children (Surah Yusef, 97-98). 

As for asking which one is better? Tp say Ya Allah, or Ya Ali. This kind of question is meaningless, because it entails that they are equally parallel to each other, or one replaces the other. However, it is not the case. Each expression functions within its own usage. It is like saying 'should I say Ya Rahman, or Ya Rahim'. 

Furthermore, there are many authentic traditions in both Sunni and Shia sources that validate the practice of Istighathah and Tawassul. Some Sunni scholars, like Imam al-Sabki, say it is a very good practice. In Sunni sources it also has a frequently mentioned tradition that 'remembering Ali is in itself an act of worship'. 

Therefore, there is no contradition, and Muslims throughout the history of Islam have sought help from mediums other than Allah ta'ala, without any intent of Shirk. The Almighty has appointed Prophets and Imams as mediums, and therefore we are able to get to Him through them.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/is-it-not-a-contradiction-to-seek-help-from-imam-ali-by-saying-ya-ali-madad-when-the-quran-says-iyyaka-nabudu-wa-iyyaka-nastain-in-surah-al-fatiha

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35 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Lolz, I think you dont want to understand. I'm saying  when most of us say "Ya Ali Madad" we ask Imam Ali to pray to Allah for our help. So, whether you say in full sentence or in phrase we mean Imam Ali or Rasol-Allah (s) to pray for us. So, why they look wrong to you? 

Because it's a foreign addition that doesn't come from Shia teachings. We follow the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt since these are our references and guides. 

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

Because it's a foreign addition that doesn't come from Shia teachings. We follow the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt since these are our references and guides. 

Brother, no where in Quran Allah says don't pray in Farsi, urdu or other languages but teaches the conditions of prayers. So, this is illogical point. 

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Sahih Muslim

Quote

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) let the dead bodies of the unbelievers who fought in Badr (lie unburied) for three days. He then came to them and sat by their side and called them and said:

O Abu Jahl b. Hisham, O Umayya b. Khalaf, O Utba b. Rab'ila, O Shaiba b. Rabi'a, have you not found what your Lord had promised with you to be correct? As for me, I have found the promises of my Lord to be (perfectly) correct. Umar listened to the words of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) and said: Allah's Messenger, how do they listen and respond to you? They are dead and their bodies have decayed. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, what I am saying to them, even you cannot hear more distinctly than they, but they lack the power to reply. Then'he commanded that they should be buried in the well of Badr.

حَدَّثَنَا هَدَّابُ بْنُ خَالِدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ سَلَمَةَ، عَنْ ثَابِتٍ الْبُنَانِيِّ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ، مَالِكٍ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَرَكَ قَتْلَى بَدْرٍ ثَلاَثًا ثُمَّ أَتَاهُمْ فَقَامَ عَلَيْهِمْ فَنَادَاهُمْ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ يَا أَبَا جَهْلِ بْنَ هِشَامٍ يَا أُمَيَّةَ بْنَ خَلَفٍ يَا عُتْبَةَ بْنَ رَبِيعَةَ يَا شَيْبَةَ بْنَ رَبِيعَةَ أَلَيْسَ قَدْ وَجَدْتُمْ مَا وَعَدَ رَبُّكُمْ حَقًّا فَإِنِّي قَدْ وَجَدْتُ مَا وَعَدَنِي رَبِّي حَقًّا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَسَمِعَ عُمَرُ قَوْلَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ كَيْفَ يَسْمَعُوا وَأَنَّى يُجِيبُوا وَقَدْ جَيَّفُوا قَالَ ‏"‏ وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ مَا أَنْتُمْ بِأَسْمَعَ لِمَا أَقُولُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَكِنَّهُمْ لاَ يَقْدِرُونَ أَنْ يُجِيبُوا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ أَمَرَ بِهِمْ فَسُحِبُوا فَأُلْقُوا فِي قَلِيبِ بَدْرٍ ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih Muslim 2874

In-book reference : Book 53, Hadith 92

https://sunnah.com/muslim/53/92

Sahih Bukhari

Quote

Narrated Ibn Shihab:

These were the battles of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (which he fought), and while mentioning (the Badr battle) he said, "While the corpses of the pagans were being thrown into the well, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to them), 'Have you found what your Lord promised true?" `Abdullah said, "Some of the Prophet's companions said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! You are addressing dead people.' Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) replied, 'You do not hear what I am saying, better than they.' The total number of Muslim fighters from Quraish who fought in the battle of Badr and were given their share of the booty, were 81 men." Az-Zubair said, "When their shares were distributed, their number was 101 men. But Allah knows it better."

حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ فُلَيْحِ بْنِ سُلَيْمَانَ، عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عُقْبَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، قَالَ هَذِهِ مَغَازِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏ فَذَكَرَ الْحَدِيثَ، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهْوَ يُلْقِيهِمْ ‏"‏ هَلْ وَجَدْتُمْ مَا وَعَدَكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ حَقًّا ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ مُوسَى قَالَ نَافِعٌ قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ قَالَ نَاسٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ تُنَادِي نَاسًا أَمْوَاتًا قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ مَا أَنْتُمْ بِأَسْمَعَ لِمَا قُلْتُ مِنْهُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ فَجَمِيعُ مَنْ شَهِدَ بَدْرًا مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ مِمَّنْ ضُرِبَ لَهُ بِسَهْمِهِ أَحَدٌ وَثَمَانُونَ رَجُلاً، وَكَانَ عُرْوَةُ بْنُ الزُّبَيْرِ يَقُولُ قَالَ الزُّبَيْرُ قُسِمَتْ سُهْمَانُهُمْ فَكَانُوا مِائَةً، وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4026

In-book reference : Book 64, Hadith 75

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 360

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/75

Ibn Taymiyah

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Ibn Taymiyyah said: "The proof of dead awareness comes from two Sahih Books of Bukhari and Muslim in which Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said that when people have buried a dead person and leave for home, the dead can hear the thumps of sandaled feet of those who leave."

[Majmuaat-al-Fatawa by Ibne Taymiyyah, Volume 24: Page No. 362]]

Ibn Taymiyah writes: 'A group of people heard the answer of their salaam. And, in the days of Harrah, Sa'id ibn al- Musayyib heard the voice of our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) saying the adhan, from the grave. And there are more events like these and they are all true.

[ibn Taymiyya, Iqtidah Siratul-Mustakeem, Page No. 373]

 

Now that some of you have already acknowledged the above Fact that at the Shrine. You can say 'Ya Ali(عليه السلام). 

1) This proves without a shadow of a doubt  that Saying "Ya Ali(as)" at the shrine can not be Shirk. So the blanket statement that saying "Ya Ali(عليه السلام) is Shirk- is wrong and misleading. Your inability to comprehend or understand is not our issue. Its your problem, and we are not polytheist that you are god and we should listen to you. 

What is left now is the distractions some of you created by saying ALL hearing and All present and can you do this from miles away etc--notions of this sort. 

2) Now prove that Saying "Ya Ali(عليه السلام) " away from the Shrine is ShirK

(Kindly, note that there is a difference between the Creator and the Created, and Divine Attributes and Assigned Attributes. So, don't make the mistake of distracting with mini god or 2.0. )

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Guest Pschological Warfare

Let's stay on the Topic and Provide Proof of Claim made. Kindly, No distraction(s) or avalanche to derail the topic

----------------

Because our beloved Friends don't "openly" confront us. 

Fyi: for the Shia of Ali(عليه السلام). 

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Al-Khoi states:

"There are some people who do not believe Amir-Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) and other Imam's (عليه السلام) to be God but believe that the Imam's (عليه السلام) are the guardians of the affairs (Wali Amr) and the workers of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and they are the most beloved and closest to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and hence give Rizq (sustenance) to the creations of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and also believe that it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is true sustainer (Raziq). This is similar to the case of angel of death being the one who gives death, the angel of rain sending down rainfall, Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) giving life to the dead with the will/permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as has come in the Holy Quran. Having such a belief is not Kufr and is not a rejection of any essentials (belief of Shiasm)." --"Sharh-el-Urwatul-Wuthqa" Vol.3 Pg.68

Sheikh Toosi states:

"There was a difference among a group of Shias on whether Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) authorized the Imam's (عليه السلام) to create and give livelihood. Some said that this is impossible and none other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has authority to create. And others say that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has authorized the Imam's (عليه السلام) over it and has delegated/authorized them and hence they create and give sustenance. And they (the two groups) disputed in this which was a severe dispute. Someone said why dont we approach Abi Jafar Muhammad bin Usman Al-Umree and ask him about this issue and make clear for you the right path in it because verily he is the way to the Imam of the Time (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) [Sahib Al Amr]. The group agreed on Abi Jafar and wrote the matter to Imam of the Time (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). And came the following letter from the Imam (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف): "Verily Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the one who creates the bodies and distributes livelihood. Because He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not have a body and nothing is inside Him. There is none like him and He is the all hearing and all knowing. And the Imam's (عليه السلام) ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and He creates and the Imam's (عليه السلام) ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and He gives livelihood. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) anwers their questions (in affirmative) and exalts them for their rights." --Al-Gaibah - Toosi, Pg.293-294 & Al-Ehtejaaj Vol.2 Pg.472

Imam Ridha tells us:

"Likewise, this community has found Amir Al Momineen (عليه السلام) a chosen servant of Allah. Almighty Allah has, through His special mercy, made him honorable so that he may show the creation the greatness of Almighty Allah and may establish His Proof before them. So, in the view of these people, their Creator is unable to create Ali ((عليه السلام).) and that Ali ((عليه السلام).) cannot be His slave.and raised Ali ((عليه السلام).) above that Allah is his Lord. With this view, they gave God’s Name to this slave of God."

"When Amirul Momineen Ali ((عليه السلام).) and his true follower Shias saw this faulty attitude of this group, they prevented them from doing so. They told them that Ali ((عليه السلام).) and his pious progeny are the honored servants of the Almighty Allah. God has given them grace but they by themselves are not able to do anything, except what God has given them power to do. They do not have anything, except which God has granted them. They have no say in the matter of life, death and rising after death, need, needlessness, movement, stagnancy, except on what God has granted them power to do. His Lord and Sustainer and Creator is higher than all the virtues of virtuous people and He is Higher than what anyone can ever imagine. Anyone who considers all of them or any one of them god, except Only One God, has entered infidelity as he has gone wayward"

-Al-Ehtejaaj, Vol. 2, Pg. 232-233

Sheikh Toosi once again states in Al-Ghayba, Pg. 387:

What has been narrated to me by Hussein bin Ubaid ullah from Abu Abdullah al Hussein bin Ali, he said I was told by Sheikh Abu ul Qasim Hussin bin Rooh, who said that

"There was a difference of opinion about Tafweed in our companions etc. So I went to Abu Tahir bin Bilal in his days of steadfastness, and informed him about this. He said: Wait for some days. I went to him again and he narrated a narration with his chain to Imam Abu Abdullah who said:

When Allah decides for something, he presents that to Prophet asws, then Imam Ali asws, and then All Aimmah asws one after another till it reaches the one of Your era, and then it is given to this world. And when Angels decide to raise something to Allah, they present it to the Chief of Your era, then it pases from one to other (Imam) till it reaches Prophet asws. Then it is presented to Allah. So What is revealed from Allah, it is through their hands, and what is raised to Allah, it is through their hands. And they (Aimmah asws) are not free of him even for glimpse of time."

&

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

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