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In the Name of God بسم الله

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I honestly dislike how complicated people make things. Call to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help. There should be absolutely no debate there. I grew up as a Shi’a and have spent the last year or so learning the beliefs that I grew up with from scratch again because there were so many things I didn’t understand. It’s actions like these where I wanted to study everything again so I could make an informed decision about which path of Islam made the most logical sense to me. I’m sorry I just get so upset. 

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Lanat is a supplication to Allah to withdrew His mercy from a person.    not a an argument bro 

I honestly dislike how complicated people make things. Call to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help. There should be absolutely no debate there. I grew up as a Shi’a and have spent the last year o

Whether it's shirk or not would probably be a topic of debate. I would think no, since you're not associating partners with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). However, I would also say that it has

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Just now, 786:) said:

Truth be told, I don’t really spend too much time with such. Allah knows how to judge who. My lanaah request won’t make a difference on his adalah as he is the most adl. Sorry, wasn’t the answer you were expecting to hit home your point.

Well I'm do not want your sorries which I cant sell at Shopkeeper and buy something. Truth is Allah says in Quran and Allah, his Angel's and Momineen make lanah upon unbelievers so Allah do make the unbelievers listen those because he shows them that how his obedient creation disgust them and they testify that the Angel's record lanah in books to show them that indeed hated enemies of Allah. 

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2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I’m a bit confused by your answers. The Jesus the Arians worshipped was a created god, subordinate to the Father, but not independent of Him. He had less knowledge than the Father (Mark 13:32), So he was not equal to the Father. However those Christians did pray to Jesus, and saw him as an intercession with the Father.

Is this shirk or not? And if it is, then would still be shirk to believe exactly the same things, but just not call Jesus a ‘god’.

We take names for intercession. Not prayer.

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4 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Well I'm do not want your sorries which I cant sell at Shopkeeper and buy something. Truth is Allah says in Quran and Allah, his Angel's and Momineen make lanah upon unbelievers so Allah do make the unbelievers listen those because he shows them that how his obedient creation disgust them and they testify that the Angel's record lanah in books to show them that indeed hated enemies of Allah. 

Im not sure what you’re getting at. I consider Yazeed to be bound to hell regardless of how many people send him lanah or salam. But sure for arguments sake let’s assume Yazeed ultimately receives the lanah. Then what? How does this tie to Ya Ali Madad?

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6 minutes ago, KnowledgeSeeker36 said:

I honestly dislike how complicated people make things. Call to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help. There should be absolutely no debate there. I grew up as a Shi’a and have spent the last year or so learning the beliefs that I grew up with from scratch again because there were so many things I didn’t understand. It’s actions like these where I wanted to study everything again so I could make an informed decision about which path of Islam made the most logical sense to me. I’m sorry I just get so upset. 

Where you get upset? To abide by the good sunnah of bani Israel that they say to their father Prophet Yaqoob (عليه السلام):"Do pray for our forgiveness". And  Prophet said:"I will indeed pray for you". You always seek a beloved person to ask for favor from the person of whom he is beloved.

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Im not sure what you’re getting at. I consider Yazeed to be bound to hell regardless of how many people send him lanah or salam. But sure for arguments sake let’s assume Yazeed ultimately receives the lanah. Then what? How does this tie to Ya Ali Madad?

This tie that you consider a person who is disgusted by Allah to hear what he has done but Allah prevents his beloved to receive the honur which He promised to them.

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There’s nothing to hear lol. I’m not sure what you think of lanah, but it is a removal of mercy. So if I say Lanah on Yazid, he does not “hear” it. He receives it in the form of Allah removing his mercy from him.

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9 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Where you get upset? To abide by the good sunnah of bani Israel that they say to their father Prophet Yaqoob (عليه السلام):"Do pray for our forgiveness". And  Prophet said:"I will indeed pray for you". You always seek a beloved person to ask for favor from the person of whom he is beloved.

Again this example does not constitute Yaqoob being all hearing and all present. These are attributes of Allah. Bring your proof that whomever besides Allah you call on are all hearing and all present. Your Yazeed example was terrible since you assumed Yazeed was hearing your lanah.

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1 minute ago, 786:) said:

There’s nothing to hear lol. I’m not sure what you think of lanah, but it is a removal of mercy. So if I say Lanah on Yazid, he does not “hear” it. He receives it in the form of Allah removing his mercy from him.

Well, Prophet (PBUHHP) said to Abu Jahl's dead body that were it not good for you to accept Islam to which Hazrat Umer said:"O! Prophet he is dead". Prophet said: "He listens more than you do". Then Hazrat umer became silent. If you are shia, you must be better than Hazrat Umer at least about whom you believe he was on wrong. 

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5 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Or you belong to neither of Shias nor sunnis? Then there is no blame on you.

I dont want to divert the topic, but you are correct I do not bind myself to any sect.

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7 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Again this example does not constitute Yaqoob being all hearing and all present. These are attributes of Allah. Bring your proof that whomever besides Allah you call on are all hearing and all present. Your Yazeed example was terrible since you assumed Yazeed was hearing your lanah.

About all hearing and all knowing, I dont have such belief except Allah (عزّ وجلّ). But, he can make his creation listen to you or be present just like Angels and shaitan. 

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29 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

The Jesus the Arians worshipped was a created god, subordinate to the Father, but not independent of Him. He had less knowledge than the Father (Mark 13:32), So he was not equal to the Father.

How is he god then ? If he is not equal to God.  

 

31 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Is this shirk or not? And if it is, then would still be shirk to believe exactly the same things, but just not call Jesus a ‘god’.

It would be shirk if he is exactly like God. Even if you don’t call him a God you are implying he is through the attributes given to him. 
 

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8 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

About all hearing and all knowing, I dont have such belief except Allah (عزّ وجلّ). But, he can make his creation listen to you or be present just like Angels and shaitan. 

So according to you Imam Ali has been granted the ability of all hearing and all present by Allah?

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Just now, 786:) said:

So according to you Imam Ali has been granted the ability of all hearing and all present by Allah?

Ameerul Momineen is servant of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and his Prophet (PBUHHP). Since, Abu Jahal can listen to Prophet and ordinary people listen asalam alaik ya Ahlal quboor, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was gifted more than them while he was alive and while he has left this world, is more entitled then them to be blessed. 

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Just now, Flying_Eagle said:

Ameerul Momineen is servant of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and his Prophet (PBUHHP). Since, Abu Jahal can listen to Prophet and ordinary people listen asalam alaik ya Ahlal quboor, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was gifted more than them while he was alive and while he has left this world, is more entitled then them to be blessed. 

You're dodging the question. Even if we assume this Sahih Sittah hadith (which is fabricated by your standards) to be true, Abu Jahal's body was right in front of the Prophet. We have endless narrations about the soul being around the body after death. The Prophet didn't say Abu Jahal was all hearing or could hear from 5 miles away. So my question stands. Does Imam Ali have the attribute of all hearing and all present? It is a yes or no question.

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3 minutes ago, 786:) said:

You're dodging the question. Even if we assume this Sahih Sittah hadith (which is fabricated by your standards) to be true, Abu Jahal's body was right in front of the Prophet. We have endless narrations about the soul being around the body after death. The Prophet didn't say Abu Jahal was all hearing or could hear from 5 miles away. So my question stands. Does Imam Ali have the attribute of all hearing and all present? It is a yes or no question.

I gave you precise answer. But let me be more clear, Ali (عليه السلام) knows what he is taught by Allah and his prophet. His capabilities are lower than Allah and his prophet. This is one answer. The second answer is that this is only one hadith about dead listening to alive people. There are many other ahadith which mention different events of dead listening to alive persons and grieving at their positions. One instance of which i described about of Shahaba saying "Wa Muhammada" and other instances if you want I can post for you. Since at the time Sahabas didn't consider it wrong or beyond islam. How come you call them wrong. 

Ok here is another thing, do Angel's see us and the dead? And do they hear us but not the dead? So, shall we consider angels to be God ? 

How will you define it?

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15 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Do they need to be at exactly the same level as Allah and have all His qualities?

In the absence of other evidence I would say yes. 

14 hours ago, 786:) said:

I don’t expect this practice going away overnight, but one should be sincere when approaching it as it could result in the ultimate sin.

Agreed. Regardless of whether one considers it shirk or not, its quite clear from the supplications in the Qur'an and of the Ahlulbayt that this practice has no basis. 

12 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Shahaba used to say "Wa Muhammada". If it were shirk then Imams would have stopped them. So, it's not shirk to ask pious to intercede for help.

Wa Muhammada is not a call for intercession. It is a form of mourning. 

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3 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

No they are committing shirk. If Allah creates another God, is that God really a God or not ? 
 

If that god posses every and the exact quality of Allah except that he is created then that makes a god since he is seen as a partner with Allah (god forbid).  Kamal al-haydari asked this question to his students and they replied no while kamal al-haydari said yes, how can you say he is omnipotent if he can’t create a god? 

The create god will always be subordinate to the uncreated due to its nature of being created.

i just want to make clear on my previous comment, that we see that the lower god is not seen as god because he is not the true God other wise we wouldn’t be monotheists but rather Dualists if we believe their is another god.

 

 

1 hour ago, THREE1THREE said:

How is he god then ? If he is not equal to God.  

 

It would be shirk if he is exactly like God. Even if you don’t call him a God you are implying he is through the attributes given to him. 
 

You seem to be contradicting yourself. A created god is clearly not exactly like God, so by definition wouldn't be god. But what I find confusing is this idea that in order to commit shirk, you have to believe the god you are worshipping is exactly like God. So if a Christian believes Jesus to be divine, prays to him, and even calls him God, it's not shirk unless they believe Jesus to be exactly like Allah?

So I would also ask you how you understand the verses in the Qur'an that refers to the Arabs as being guilty of shirk, despite the fact that it is clear they didn't believe them to be anywhere near the same level as Allah.

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@786:) as for Masoomeen (عليه السلام) knowing the secrets in the heart,

 

Rameela’s Tradition1


الحسن بن علي بن النعمان عن أبيه عن الشامي عن أبي داود السبيعي عن أبي سعيد الخدري عن رميلة قال: وعكت وعكا شديدا في زمان
أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فوجدت من نفسي خفة في يوم الجمعة، وقلت: لا أعرف شيئا أفضل من أن أفيض على نفسي من الماء
واصلي خلف أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ففعلت، ثم جئت إلى المسجد، فلما صعد أمير المؤمنين المنبر عاد علي ذلك الوعك. فلما
انصرف أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ودخل القصر دخلت معه فقال: يا رميلة رأيتك وأنت متشبك بعضك في بعض فقلت: نعم، وقصصت
عليه القصة التي آنت فيها والذي حملني على الرغبة في الصلاة خلفه، فقال: يا رميلة ليس من مؤمن يمرض إلا مرضنا بمرضه ولا
يحزن إلا حزنا بحزنه ولا يدعو إلا آمنا لدعائه ولا يسكت إلا دعونا له. فقلت له: يا أمير المؤمنين جعلني االله فداك هذا لمن معك في
القصر أرأيت من آان في أطراف الارض ؟ قال: يا رميلة ليس يغيب عنا مؤمن في شرق الارض ولا في غيرها

 


It is written in ‘Kitabul Irshad’ that Hamran bin Aan heard from Qasim bin Mohammed bin Abu Bakr who narrates from Rameela, who was very close and devout companion of Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام) . 

 


Rameela: once on a Friday, during the time of Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام),I had very high fever, which took away my strength but cleansed and elevated me spiritually. I was feeling extremely 
pious and blessed. At that moment, I thought, the best I could do is to take a bath and go to mosque in order to recite salat in the leadership of Amir-ul-Momaneensws. I acted upon my 
intuition and read salat behind Amir-ul-Momaneensws but when my Molasws went to pulpit to deliver sermon, my fever, out of sudden, shot-up again. When Amir-ul Momaneen (عليه السلام) left the 
Mosque, subsequent to finishing the sermon, I started following my Master, after a short while, 
Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام) turned towards me and said:

 

I find you overwhelmed by doubts, 
regarding some of your affairs, which are troubling you due to your fever. Did you not talk to yourself about taking a bath and coming out to recite Friday prayers behind me but when I was reciting sermon your fever shot-up and you started regretting your decision. 


Rameela: By Allah (عزّ وجلّ), Ya Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام), you portrayed my thoughts word by word, without addition or omission of a single word. 

 


O Rameela! There is not a single instant that a momin or a momina suffers from an illness and 
I am not affected by it. And it is not possible if someone is grieved and I do not share his misery and I say Amen! upon hearing his prayer, I keep on praying for him even after he seizes to pray for himself. 

 


Rameela: You are very kind to all those who are with you and live in this city. But, how about those who live far away from here? 

 


O Rameela! There is not a single ‘momin’ or ‘momina’ who is obscured from us, regardless of where they live, they call upon us and we protect them, wherever they are, in the East or in the West.

 

Al Basair p.259

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2 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

@786:) as for Masoomeen (عليه السلام) knowing the secrets in the heart,

 

Rameela’s Tradition1


الحسن بن علي بن النعمان عن أبيه عن الشامي عن أبي داود السبيعي عن أبي سعيد الخدري عن رميلة قال: وعكت وعكا شديدا في زمان
أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فوجدت من نفسي خفة في يوم الجمعة، وقلت: لا أعرف شيئا أفضل من أن أفيض على نفسي من الماء
واصلي خلف أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ففعلت، ثم جئت إلى المسجد، فلما صعد أمير المؤمنين المنبر عاد علي ذلك الوعك. فلما
انصرف أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ودخل القصر دخلت معه فقال: يا رميلة رأيتك وأنت متشبك بعضك في بعض فقلت: نعم، وقصصت
عليه القصة التي آنت فيها والذي حملني على الرغبة في الصلاة خلفه، فقال: يا رميلة ليس من مؤمن يمرض إلا مرضنا بمرضه ولا
يحزن إلا حزنا بحزنه ولا يدعو إلا آمنا لدعائه ولا يسكت إلا دعونا له. فقلت له: يا أمير المؤمنين جعلني االله فداك هذا لمن معك في
القصر أرأيت من آان في أطراف الارض ؟ قال: يا رميلة ليس يغيب عنا مؤمن في شرق الارض ولا في غيرها

 


It is written in ‘Kitabul Irshad’ that Hamran bin Aan heard from Qasim bin Mohammed bin Abu Bakr who narrates from Rameela, who was very close and devout companion of Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام) . 

 


Rameela: once on a Friday, during the time of Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام),I had very high fever, which took away my strength but cleansed and elevated me spiritually. I was feeling extremely 
pious and blessed. At that moment, I thought, the best I could do is to take a bath and go to mosque in order to recite salat in the leadership of Amir-ul-Momaneensws. I acted upon my 
intuition and read salat behind Amir-ul-Momaneensws but when my Molasws went to pulpit to deliver sermon, my fever, out of sudden, shot-up again. When Amir-ul Momaneen (عليه السلام) left the 
Mosque, subsequent to finishing the sermon, I started following my Master, after a short while, 
Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام) turned towards me and said:

 

I find you overwhelmed by doubts, 
regarding some of your affairs, which are troubling you due to your fever. Did you not talk to yourself about taking a bath and coming out to recite Friday prayers behind me but when I was reciting sermon your fever shot-up and you started regretting your decision. 


Rameela: By Allah (عزّ وجلّ), Ya Amir-ul-Momaneen (عليه السلام), you portrayed my thoughts word by word, without addition or omission of a single word. 

 


O Rameela! There is not a single instant that a momin or a momina suffers from an illness and 
I am not affected by it. And it is not possible if someone is grieved and I do not share his misery and I say Amen! upon hearing his prayer, I keep on praying for him even after he seizes to pray for himself. 

 


Rameela: You are very kind to all those who are with you and live in this city. But, how about those who live far away from here? 

 


O Rameela! There is not a single ‘momin’ or ‘momina’ who is obscured from us, regardless of where they live, they call upon us and we protect them, wherever they are, in the East or in the West.

 

Al Basair p.259

there are many compatibe Narrations to this. let me know if you'd wish to see. I've read em long back. all il need is sometime to find em.

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46 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

But it’s clear from numerous verses that the gods the pagan Arabs were calling on were not believed to be on the same level as Allah, and yet it was shirk.

But they worshipped them and made idols out of them, which are all forms of association with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Edit: narration removed

astaghfirullah!! You blindly accept the shirky narrations simply because they are found in Bihar ul Anwar (even if they go against clear cut Quran verses). Do you accept this filth too? I don’t want to offend people on my thoughts about this book, but this should shed some light.

@Mahdavist you need to remove this post asap. this guy is just picking up a random Narration to support his claim.

Edited by Mahdavist
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I am removing it as well as most of your usual off topic posts which have nothing to do with the topic.

then you'll have to remove half of the posts from the thread. the tread is all about Calling Mawla Ali (عليه السلام) for help.

 

Masoomeen (عليه السلام) being present or not has nothing to do with the thread. you can ask that guy to create a seperate thread for that. no doubt I'll participate too.

Edited by randomly curious
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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

In the absence of other evidence I would say yes. 

Agreed. Regardless of whether one considers it shirk or not, its quite clear from the supplications in the Qur'an and of the Ahlulbayt that this practice has no basis. 

Wa Muhammada is not a call for intercession. It is a form of mourning. 

 

But it's a call Oh Muhammad. Isnt it?

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6 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

@Mahdavist you need to remove this post asap. this guy is just picking up a random Narration to support his claim.

Oh the one I point out to show the lack of credibility of Bihar ul Anwar is just a random narration, but the one you pick to defend shirk is okay? Did you look at the chain to check if there was any ghuluw narrator? Do you even believe there exist such a thing as ghuluw? Or do you just assume Imams and Allah are the same thing just a matter of creator and created.

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1 minute ago, randomly curious said:

then you'll have to remove half of the posts from the thread. the tread is all about Calling Mawla Ali (عليه السلام) for help.

 

Masoomeen (عليه السلام) being present or not has nothing to do with the thread. you can ask that guy to create a seperate thread for that. no doubt I'll participate too.

Being omni present and all hearing has everything to do with Ya Ali Madad.

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Just now, 786:) said:

Oh the one I point out to show the lack of credibility of Bihar ul Anwar is just a random narration, but the one you pick to defend shirk is okay? Did you look at the chain to check if there was any ghuluw narrator? Do you even believe there exist such a thing as ghuluw? Or do you just assume Imams and Allah are the same thing just a matter of creator and created.

just a single fabricated Narration proves whether the books is credible or not according to you? are you even aware how many Narrations exist in a book named "Bihar Al anwaar"? and youre certainly relying on the opinions of the scholar of the book being 90% spurious? did your scholars read each and every Narration before coming to a conclusion? what if i say 90% book is authentic? would you blindly rely? and what if someone presents in front of you 11% authenticity?:hahaha:

 

and the Narrations i quoted about knowledge are from al kafi with complete chains if you didn't read them.

 

Ghuluw is calling Masoomeen (عليه السلام) God. thats all.

 

and in basair al darajat i read a beautiful Narration few days back

 

عن أحمد بن محمد, عن الحسين بن سعيد, عن الحسين بن برده, عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام). وعن جعفر بن بشير الخزاز, عن إسماعيل بن عبد العزيز, قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يا إسماعيل, ضع لي في المتوضاء ماء. قال: فقمت فوضعت له. قال: فدخل. قال: فقلت في نفسي: أنا أقول فيه كذا وكذا, ويدخل المتوضاء يتوضاء. قال: فلم يلبث أن خرج فقال: يا إسماعيل, لا ترفع البناء فوق طاقته فينهدم. اجعلونا مخلوقين, وقولوا بنا ما شئتم؛ فلن تبلغوا. فقال إسماعيل: وكنت أقول: إنّه وأقول وأقول

Narrated from Ahmad bin Muhammad, from Al-Husain bin Saeed, from Al-Husain bin Burdah, from Abi Abdillah (عليه السلام) And Narrated from Jafar bin Basheer Al-Khazzaz, from Ismail bin Abdul Aziz from Abi Abdillah (عليه السلام) :

Abu Abdillah (عليه السلام) said,

 

"O' Ismail, place some water for me in the Wuzu vessel."

Ismail said, "I stood up and placed the water for Him." And I said to myself, "I will say regarding it such and such...."
And Imam (عليه السلام) came and performed Wuzu. (Not soon that He was to leave....?)

Imam  (عليه السلام) said,

 

"O' Ismail, don't raise the construction over its strength, else it will collapse. Consider us as Creations. And then say about us what-ever you like, you will not be able to reach us.(reach our merits)"

Ismail said, "And I said it, and I said, and I said."

 

[Source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 5, Chapter. 10, Hadees. 5]

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