shirk

[Kalepaceh 11]

Can anybody tell me why saying "Ya Ali madad" isn't shirk?

 

[Mahdavist 2,783]

Whether it's shirk or not would probably be a topic of debate.

I would think no, since you're not associating partners with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). However, I would also say that it has no basis in the Qur'an and the narrations of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so we should follow these rather than making up new practices. 

[786:) 480]

2 hours ago, Kalepaceh said:

Can anybody tell me why saying "Ya Ali madad" isn't shirk?

 

It’s become synonymous with Shias so it’s hard to extract it and call it for what it is.

[Guest Pschological Warfare]

Eventually this will be a debate if they are alive or dead.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235034818-a-dialogue-on-your-understanding-of-shirk/?tab=comments#comment-2905590

For those who are not Literalist, don't read/think in a silo like a technician and don't have an interest in playing god by defining others Intention(s)

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235058287-say-ya-ali-as-%DB%8C%D8%A7-%D8%B9%D9%84%DB%8C/?tab=commnts#comment-3182476

Qur'an 1:6 & 7.  Say Ya Ali(عليه السلام) to save yourself from the deadly Virus of Atheism/Agnostism. 

For those"Shia of Whoever" Prove it tat it is shirk. Instead of seeding threads with comments with out any evidence. 

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

16 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Whether it's shirk or not would probably be a topic of debate.

I would think no, since you're not associating partners with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). However, I would also say that it has no basis in the Qur'an and the narrations of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so we should follow these rather than making up new practices. 

How would you define partners?

[Mahdavist 2,783]

22 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

How would you define partners?

To somehow elevate someone to the position of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), to attribute qualities to them that are unique to Him. 

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

15 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

To somehow elevate someone to the position of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), to attribute qualities to them that are unique to Him. 

Do they need to be at exactly the same level as Allah and have all His qualities?

[786:) 480]

When one calls out Ya Ali Madad, are they not assuming Imam Ali is All Hearing and Omni Present? For example, if person A calls on Ali from UK and person B calls on Ali from India at the same time, the idea is Ali is present at both calls. These are attributes of Allah which would constitute shirk. This is not a “literalist” view. When those who defend Ya Ali Madad by stating it’s the Sunnah of the prophet, they are ignoring the fact that the Prophet’s call never gave Ali the attributes of Allah as it does now. I don’t expect this practice going away overnight, but one should be sincere when approaching it as it could result in the ultimate sin.

[THREE1THREE 358]

3 minutes ago, 786:) said:

When one calls out Ya Ali Madad, are they not assuming Imam Ali is All Hearing and Omni Present?

Nope, Allah informs him. Even some Sunni’s say “ya muhammad”. No one shia claims the imams or the prophet being Omnipresent. 

[THREE1THREE 358]

30 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Do they need to be at exactly the same level as Allah and have all His qualities?

If they shirk al-asgur is when a person shows off in his prayers, supplications since he makes the one who he is showing off to Equal to God. 

shirk al-Akbar, claiming to be independent of Allah, ascribing strict attributes that belong to the Divine to someone or himself. Or claiming to have the same perfection as God concerning the attributes given to God. 

[786:) 480]

1 minute ago, THREE1THREE said:

Nope, Allah informs him. Even some Sunni’s say “ya muhammad”. No one shia claims the imams or the prophet being Omnipresent. 

Huh? Allah informs him? That’s a first. I thought the whole idea of Ya Ali Madad was blanketed under intercession where Imam Ali asks Allah for our request because we are too sinful for Allah to hear us...atleast that’s how I’ve seen it defended 99/100 times.

But if Allah is the one who responds to Ya Ali Madad then why not just call on Allah to help or is that auctioned off to the Sunnis?

[THREE1THREE 358]

1 minute ago, 786:) said:

Huh? Allah informs him? That’s a first. I thought the whole idea of Ya Ali Madad was blanketed under intercession where Imam Ali asks Allah for our request because we are too sinful for Allah to hear us...atleast that’s how I’ve seen it defended 99/100 times.

Yes, but Allah informs him through an angel. An angel carries out tasks of conveying the the requests. The same way Allah uses angels to carry His throne. 

[786:) 480]

Just now, THREE1THREE said:

Yes, but Allah informs him through an angel. An angel carries out tasks of conveying the the requests. The same way Allah uses angels to carry His throne. 

So tell me why not simply call out Ya Allah Madad as emphasized in the Quran endlessly? 

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

1 minute ago, THREE1THREE said:

If they shirk al-asgur is when a person shows off in his prayers, supplications since he makes the one who he is showing off to Equal to God. 

Do you think someone who does that believes that the one they are showing off to actually is equal to God in any way, or is it simply the case that it’s shirk because they are performing an act of worship for the benefit of other than Allah?

1 minute ago, THREE1THREE said:

shirk al-Akbar, claiming to be independent of Allah, ascribing strict attributes that belong to the Divine to someone or himself. Or claiming to have the same perfection as God concerning the attributes given to God. 

Rationally speaking why is believing in the independence from Allah a necessity for it to be shirk? And if it’s not a rational necessity, then from where is this condition derived?

I’m not quite clear on what having the same perfection as Allah means. Could you give an example to help me better understand?

[THREE1THREE 358]

Surah Baqarah 2:255

Allah-there is not god except Him-

Is the Living One, the All-Sustainer. Neither drowsiness befalls Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever in on the earth. WHO IS IT THAT MAY INTERCEDE WITH HIM EXCEPT WITH HIS PERMISSION? He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, AND THEY DO NOT COMPREHEND ANYTHING OF HIS KNOWLEDGE EXCEPT WHAT HE WISHES. His seat embraces the heavens and the earth, and He is not wearied by their preservation, and He is the All-Exalted, the All-supreme.

 

Surah Yunus 10:3

Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself  upon the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. There is no intercession EXCEPT after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so  worship Him. Then will you not remember?

 

 

Surah Al-Muddaththir 78:48

So intercession of the intercessors will not avail them. 

 

Surah Al-Najm 53: 26

How many an angel there is in the heavens whose intercession is of no avail in any way EXCEPT after Allah grants permission to whomever He wishes and approves of!

 

 

Surah Al-Zukhruf 43:86

Those whom they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE WITNESS TO THE TRUTH and who know [for whom to intercede].

 

Surah Saba  34:23

Intercession is of no avail with Him EXCEPT for those whom He permits. When fear is lifted from their hearts, they say, ‘What did your Lord say? They say ‘The truth, and He is the All-Exalted, All-great 

 

Surah al-Anbiya 21:28

He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, AND THEY DO NOT INTERCEDE EXCEPT for someone He approves of, and they are apprehensive for the fear of Him.

 

Surah Ta Ha 20:109

Intercession will not avail that day EXCEPT from him whom the All-Beneficent allows and approves of this world. 

 

Surah maryam 19:87

No one will have the power to intercede [with Allah], EXCEPT for him who has taken a covenant with the All-Beneficent 

 

Surah Ghafir 40:18

Warn them of the Imminent Day when the hearts will be at the throats, choking with suppressed agony, [and] the wrongdoers will have no sympathizer, nor any intercessors who might be heard.

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

16 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Nope, Allah informs him. Even some Sunni’s say “ya muhammad”. No one shia claims the imams or the prophet being Omnipresent. 

That’s just not true. Plenty of Shias believe this. I had a whole thread on the Imams being all-hearing, and although plenty didn’t like that terminology, nobody from the opposing side of the argument really disputed that they could hear everything:

Even some Sunnis believe in this, namely Barelvi Sunnis on the subcontinent: http://sunnah.org/aqida/haadir_wa_naadir.htm

God forbid we let Sunnis outdo us on an issue like this.

[THREE1THREE 358]

5 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Do you think someone who does that believes that the one they are showing off to actually is equal to God in any way,

He is unintentionally guilty of it.

6 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

is it simply the case that it’s shirk because they are performing an act of worship for the benefit of other than Allah?

It goes both ways.

7 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Rationally speaking why is believing in the independence from Allah a necessity for it to be shirk? And if it’s not a rational necessity, then from where is this condition derived?

It is shirk because his making his position equal to Allah which makes him all-powerful All-knowing independently not dependent of Allah. 
 

11 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I’m not quite clear on what having the same perfection as Allah means. Could you give an example to help me better understand?

Who’s compassion is like Allah’s ? Mercy like Allah’s? Just like Allah’s? Wisdom like Allah’s ? 

[786:) 480]

16 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Surah Baqarah 2:255

Allah-there is not god except Him-

Is the Living One, the All-Sustainer. Neither drowsiness befalls Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever in on the earth. WHO IS IT THAT MAY INTERCEDE WITH HIM EXCEPT WITH HIS PERMISSION? He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, AND THEY DO NOT COMPREHEND ANYTHING OF HIS KNOWLEDGE EXCEPT WHAT HE WISHES. His seat embraces the heavens and the earth, and He is not wearied by their preservation, and He is the All-Exalted, the All-supreme.

 

Surah Yunus 10:3

Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself  upon the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. There is no intercession EXCEPT after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so  worship Him. Then will you not remember?

 

 

Surah Al-Muddaththir 78:48

So intercession of the intercessors will not avail them. 

 

Surah Al-Najm 53: 26

How many an angel there is in the heavens whose intercession is of no avail in any way EXCEPT after Allah grants permission to whomever He wishes and approves of!

 

 

Surah Al-Zukhruf 43:86

Those whom they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE WITNESS TO THE TRUTH and who know [for whom to intercede].

 

Surah Saba  34:23

Intercession is of no avail with Him EXCEPT for those whom He permits. When fear is lifted from their hearts, they say, ‘What did your Lord say? They say ‘The truth, and He is the All-Exalted, All-great 

 

Surah al-Anbiya 21:28

He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, AND THEY DO NOT INTERCEDE EXCEPT for someone He approves of, and they are apprehensive for the fear of Him.

 

Surah Ta Ha 20:109

Intercession will not avail that day EXCEPT from him whom the All-Beneficent allows and approves of this world. 

 

Surah maryam 19:87

No one will have the power to intercede [with Allah], EXCEPT for him who has taken a covenant with the All-Beneficent 

 

Surah Ghafir 40:18

Warn them of the Imminent Day when the hearts will be at the throats, choking with suppressed agony, [and] the wrongdoers will have no sympathizer, nor any intercessors who might be heard.

How does this validate Ya Ali Madad. I dont understand your point. You are saying Allah responds to Ya Ali Madad then delegates the task to Imam Ali, so why not just call upon Allah and let him decide who or what to make the intercessor--whether Ali, Gibril, a loaf of bread, etc. 

Edited August 6 by 786:)

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

@THREE1THREE

Let's say you had a being created by Allah, who's will was perfectly aligned with Allah (so was not independent of Him), and through which everything else was created. Let's say that being's knowledge was slightly lower than Allah's as well, and that this being could intercede with Allah and was seen as a more likely route to attaining one's wishes.

If people believed in such a being and performed acts of devotion to it, would it be shirk?

[THREE1THREE 358]

14 minutes ago, 786:) said:

You are saying Allah responds to Ya Ali Madad then delegates the task to Imam Ali,

The angels informs him not Allah but Allah has appointed the angel to carry out a task to send the requests. Technically wouldn’t it  be Allah is informing through an angel ?.

20 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Surah al-Anbiya 21:28

He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, AND THEY DO NOT INTERCEDE EXCEPT for someone He approves of, and they are apprehensive for the fear of Him.

Read Surah 33:33 & Sahih muslim book 31, 5955

 

[THREE1THREE 358]

28 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

who's will was perfectly aligned with Allah

That’s still shirk your ascribing a quality that strictly belongs to the Divine which makes him a lower god since his created.

32 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Let's say that being's knowledge was slightly lower than Allah's as well

That fact that he has a lower knowledge than God makes him not equal to God. 
 

 

33 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

that this being could intercede with Allah and was seen as a more likely route to attaining one's wishes.

 

35 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Those whom they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE WITNESS TO THE TRUTH and who know [for whom to intercede].

 

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

3 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

That’s still shirk your ascribing a quality that strictly belongs to the Divine which makes him a lower god since his created.

So is the will of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not completely aligned with what Allah’s?

3 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

That fact that he has a lower knowledge than God makes him not equal to God. 

Ok, so as in your reply above he would be a lower god. But you can still commit shirk with a lower god, right?

[THREE1THREE 358]

4 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So is the will of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not completely aligned with what Allah’s?

The purpose of the prophet is align with Allah’s purpose. 

 

5 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Ok, so as in your reply above he would be a lower god. But you can still commit shirk with a lower god, right?

No because we don’t believe he is a god at all he is created; but he is seen as one because of certain attributes given to him. 

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

2 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

The purpose of the prophet is align with Allah’s purpose. 

How is that different?

 

2 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

No because we don’t believe he is a god at all he is created; but he is seen as one because of certain attributes given to him. 

So the Arian Christians that believed that Jesus was a created god weren’t committing shirk?

[THREE1THREE 358]

Just now, Haydar Husayn said:

So the Arian Christians that believed that Jesus was a created god weren’t committing shirk?

No they are committing shirk. If Allah creates another God, is that God really a God or not ? 
 

If that god posses every and the exact quality of Allah except that he is created then that makes a god since he is seen as a partner with Allah (god forbid).  Kamal al-haydari asked this question to his students and they replied no while kamal al-haydari said yes, how can you say he is omnipotent if he can’t create a god? 

The create god will always be subordinate to the uncreated due to its nature of being created.

i just want to make clear on my previous comment, that we see that the lower god is not seen as god because he is not the true God other wise we wouldn’t be monotheists but rather Dualists if we believe their is another god.

2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

How is that different?

Misunderstood your comment thinking that the other being created the same will as Allah not carry out Allah’s will. 

[Flying_Eagle 929]

19 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Whether it's shirk or not would probably be a topic of debate.

I would think no, since you're not associating partners with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). However, I would also say that it has no basis in the Qur'an and the narrations of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so we should follow these rather than making up new practices. 

Shahaba used to say "Wa Muhammada". If it were shirk then Imams would have stopped them. So, it's not shirk to ask pious to intercede for help.

[Flying_Eagle 929]

21 hours ago, Kalepaceh said:

Can anybody tell me why saying "Ya Ali madad" isn't shirk?

 

Quran says:"find a wasilah for help". In Surah 9 Allah says to Prophet (PBUHHP):"Your prayers give comfort to the hearts of Momineen".

So, calling on pious to ask Allah for help is authenticated by Quran. In past, "Shahaba used to say Wa Muhammada". It wasn't termed as shirk by main stream Sahaba and our Imams. So, it isn't shirk. 

[Flying_Eagle 929]

2 hours ago, 786:) said:

When one calls out Ya Ali Madad, are they not assuming Imam Ali is All Hearing and Omni Present? For example, if person A calls on Ali from UK and person B calls on Ali from India at the same time, the idea is Ali is present at both calls. These are attributes of Allah which would constitute shirk. This is not a “literalist” view. When those who defend Ya Ali Madad by stating it’s the Sunnah of the prophet, they are ignoring the fact that the Prophet’s call never gave Ali the attributes of Allah as it does now. I don’t expect this practice going away overnight, but one should be sincere when approaching it as it could result in the ultimate sin.

When you send lanah upon Yazid whether from Britain or India, is he listening or not? And what makes him that!

[Flying_Eagle 929]

@786:)

786:) or perhaps you believe shaitan can be everywhere but Allah (عزّ وجلّ) can't give such authority to his beloved ones. 

[786:) 480]

Just now, Flying_Eagle said:

When you send lanah upon Yazid whether from Britain or India, is he listening or not? And what makes him that!

What? Lanaah is a request to Allah to remove mercy from an individual. Yazeed is not all hearing—that is an attribute of Allah.

[Flying_Eagle 929]

Just now, 786:) said:

What? Lanaah is a request to Allah to remove mercy from an individual. Yazeed is not all hearing—that is an attribute of Allah.

So, you mean that lanaah does not reach yazid? Why make such effort then?

[THREE1THREE 358]

Just now, Flying_Eagle said:

So, you mean that lanaah does not reach yazid? Why make such effort then?

Lanat is a supplication to Allah to withdrew His mercy from a person. 
 
not a an argument bro 

[Flying_Eagle 929]

Just now, THREE1THREE said:

Lanat is a supplication to Allah to withdrew His mercy from a person. 
 
not a an argument bro 

What is Ya Ali Madàd then an intercession  as affirmed by Quran like wa Muhammada. Why you have issue on this? Can God who send these to Prophet and Ali so they can pray for them? Or you think you are more beloved to Allah then Prophet and Ali. 

[786:) 480]

4 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

So, you mean that lanaah does not reach yazid? Why make such effort then?

Truth be told, I don’t really spend too much time with such. Allah knows how to judge who. My lanaah request won’t make a difference on his adalah as he is the most adl. Sorry, wasn’t the answer you were expecting to hit home your point.

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

44 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

No they are committing shirk. If Allah creates another God, is that God really a God or not ? 
 

If that god posses every and the exact quality of Allah except that he is created then that makes a god since he is seen as a partner with Allah (god forbid).  Kamal al-haydari asked this question to his students and they replied no while kamal al-haydari said yes, how can you say he is omnipotent if he can’t create a god? 

The create god will always be subordinate to the uncreated due to its nature of being created.

i just want to make clear on my previous comment, that we see that the lower god is not seen as god because he is not the true God other wise we wouldn’t be monotheists but rather Dualists if we believe their is another god.

I’m a bit confused by your answers. The Jesus the Arians worshipped was a created god, subordinate to the Father, but not independent of Him. He had less knowledge than the Father (Mark 13:32), So he was not equal to the Father. However those Christians did pray to Jesus, and saw him as an intercession with the Father.

Is this shirk or not? And if it is, then would still be shirk to believe exactly the same things, but just not call Jesus a ‘god’.