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In the Name of God بسم الله

Lebanon Port Explosion

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Lebanon in the 50s and 60s was already at the peakpoint of corruption. 

I was in that exact location in Beirut a year ago it’s extremely beautiful. Now I think how sad it is that lebanon never catches a break. My parents generation never did, nor does this generation

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9 hours ago, Sumerian said:

No one said it wasn't a corrupt or unfair system. Everything wrong with it could have been fixed by reforms and economic advance, and the economic potential of the country was obvious to everyone. It was a jannah compared to what became of Lebanon after that.

Like I said, the PLO and the revolutionaries came and everything was destroyed with their guns.

Same way, the PLO issue could have been dealt with by reforms. 

You forget to mention that all stakeholders in that war just fought for their share that they had amassed from corruption. 

Matter of fact, that economical jannah as you call it, was just the result of an unfair distribution of wealth. Do you know how poor some factions of the people were ?

Should reforms had taken place, that would have meant more public spending, more transparency, less influx from abroad, less wealth. Finished double digit rates. Basically no more jannah. And probably confessionalism would have taken over in the end.

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2 hours ago, realizm said:

Same way, the PLO issue could have been dealt with by reforms. 

No it couldn't. The PLO illegally established military bases and checkpoints with the use of force. There was no parliamentary vote or political order that gave them this power, they simply came as a militia and set up shop.

They created a state within a state.

2 hours ago, realizm said:

You forget to mention that all stakeholders in that war just fought for their share that they had amassed from corruption. 

No I didn't, because that is exactly what happened. No one denied that.

2 hours ago, realizm said:

Matter of fact, that economical jannah as you call it, was just the result of an unfair distribution of wealth. Do you know how poor some factions of the people were ?

No one called it jannah, it seems you read too quick. I said it is jannah compared to what Lebanon is and has been in the past couple of years economically. Today all of Lebanon is equally poor (proper distribution), except the political elite with their Swiss bank accounts. It is a failed state and a failed economy. It wasn't a failed state or economy in the 1950s or 60s, and with time and through reform and good leadership it could have developed. 

But what happened? Like the destructive force they are, the PLO and the sectarian revolutionaries do not care about the economy or the improvement of society, rather, they care about their own cause and used Lebanon as a piece of land for their objective, and Lebanon turned into a geopolitical battleground, and there is no way for a country to survive as a battleground.

3 hours ago, realizm said:

Should reforms had taken place, that would have meant more public spending, more transparency, less influx from abroad, less wealth. Finished double digit rates. Basically no more jannah. And probably confessionalism would have taken over in the end.

I won't comment on the nature of the reforms, but had the PLO not entered Lebanon, it would be in a 100x better state than it is right now, economically and otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

No it couldn't. The PLO illegally established military bases and checkpoints with the use of force. There was no parliamentary vote or political order that gave them this power, they simply came as a militia and set up shop.

They created a state within a state.

No I didn't, because that is exactly what happened. No one denied that.

No one called it jannah, it seems you read too quick. I said it is jannah compared to what Lebanon is and has been in the past couple of years economically. Today all of Lebanon is equally poor (proper distribution), except the political elite with their Swiss bank accounts. It is a failed state and a failed economy. It wasn't a failed state or economy in the 1950s or 60s, and with time and through reform and good leadership it could have developed. 

But what happened? Like the destructive force they are, the PLO and the sectarian revolutionaries do not care about the economy or the improvement of society, rather, they care about their own cause and used Lebanon as a piece of land for their objective, and Lebanon turned into a geopolitical battleground, and there is no way for a country to survive as a battleground.

I won't comment on the nature of the reforms, but had the PLO not entered Lebanon, it would be in a 100x better state than it is right now, economically and otherwise.

If if was all PLO's fault as you said, then why did not a national consensus kick them out ? 

All alliances games habibi, don't act like you don't know please. PLO, Syrians, Progressive Christians (if that's how you name them), Sunnis, Shiites.

It's not just the PLO. 

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Today all of Lebanon is equally poor (proper distribution), except the political elite with their Swiss bank accounts.

On what are you basing this ? Christians are still richer than Tripolite Sunnis, and so on. 

There is an heritage from the past that never disappeared. 

1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

rather, they care about their own cause and used Lebanon as a piece of land for their objective, and Lebanon turned into a geopolitical battleground

Maybe you should blame the initiators of Lebanon, who was first created as a land for Maronite Christians. Those Maronites to whom you give credit for the economic welfare of the 1960s.

Again, summing it up to PLO Amal and Hezbollah is just giving an extremely raw picture of the puzzle, it's plainly inconsistent. 

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5 hours ago, realizm said:

Matter of fact, that economical jannah as you call it, was just the result of an unfair distribution of wealth.

 

As a side note, I think it's worth observing that from the birth of the state, during this period and for some time afterwards there was also a debate as to how Lebanon was to be aligned culturally. Certainly if that polity had remained Lebanon would have lost both its Muslim and Arab character.

 

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Co-founded by Georges Naccache, who later helped to establish the Lebanese Christian Phalange political party in 1936,5 L’Orient in the late 1950s and early 1960s was aligned with the politico-ideological framework of the Maronite Christian elite that espoused a Lebanese nationalism at odds with the pan-Arab socialist nationalism—and its critique of Western involvement in the Arab world—in which many in the region, including in Lebanon, were deeply caught up during this era. The politics with which the newspaper was affiliated promoted a Mediterraneanist national identity rooted in a kind of cosmopolitan multiplicity that highlighted Lebanon’s distinctness from its Arab and Muslim neighbours. 

Kristin V. Monroe (2017) Circulation, modernity, and urban space in 1960s Beirut, History and Anthropology, 28:2, 188-210, DOI: 10.1080/02757206.2017.1279613

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, realizm said:

If if was all PLO's fault as you said, then why did not a national consensus kick them out ? 

All alliances games habibi, don't act like you don't know please. PLO, Syrians, Progressive Christians (if that's how you name them), Sunnis, Shiites.

It's not just the PLO. 

Who let them in in the first place? Did they ask the Lebanese Government for permission before they started using Lebanon as a launching ground for their operations? No. It was all illegal.

The PLO started the problem in Lebanon, that's a fact. If they never showed up, there would be no civil war.

1 hour ago, realizm said:

On what are you basing this ? Christians are still richer than Tripolite Sunnis, and so on. 

Bruv, if you were rich in Lebanon 6 months ago you are poor now. The Lebanese pound is worse less than toilet paper. All those life saving are worthless now. Electricity is provided for 2 hrs a day. There is no rich except the elite. 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Maybe you should blame the initiators of Lebanon, who was first created as a land for Maronite Christians. Those Maronites to whom you give credit for the economic welfare of the 1960s.

Nope, I see nothing wrong with the creation of Lebanon at all as a nation but there was obviously issues with the political system as it was sectarian from beginning but like every other nation, it can develop and reform within time through peaceful political activism. 

The 60s had its flaws but like I said, a jannah compared to 2020 and the current state of Lebanon.

Edited by Sumerian
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1 hour ago, realizm said:

Again, summing it up to PLO Amal and Hezbollah is just giving an extremely raw picture of the puzzle, it's plainly inconsistent. 

Hezbollah is a post-civil war issue. PLO and the revolutionaries were the initiators of all issues. 

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9 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

As a side note, I think it's worth observing that from the birth of the state, during this period and for some time afterwards there was also a debate as to how Lebanon was to be aligned culturally. Certainly if that polity had remained Lebanon would have lost both its Muslim and Arab character.

 

Kristin V. Monroe (2017) Circulation, modernity, and urban space in 1960s Beirut, History and Anthropology, 28:2, 188-210, DOI: 10.1080/02757206.2017.1279613

Ofcourse such an ideology will not survive in a region where you have greedy expansionist neighbours with their pan-(whatever) views, whether it is Arabism, Islamism or even leftism. 

Lebanon was never given an opportunity to succeed, the foreigners had their eyes wide open the day it became independent. People like Arafat are no heroes, they never understood the meaning of sovereignty.

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9 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Who let them in in the first place? Did they ask the Lebanese Government for permission before they started using Lebanon as a launching ground for their operations? No. It was all illegal.

The PLO started the problem in Lebanon, that's a fact. If they never showed up, there would be no civil war.

Bruv, if you were rich in Lebanon 6 months ago you are poor now. The Lebanese pound is worse less than toilet paper. All those life saving are worthless now. Electricity is provided for 2 hrs a day. There is no rich except the elite. 

Nope, I see nothing wrong with the creation of Lebanon at all as a nation but there was obviously issues with the political system as it was sectarian from beginning but like every other nation, it can develop and reform within time through peaceful political activism. 

The 60s had its flaws but like I said, a jannah compared to 2020 and the current state of Lebanon.

Well at least something we can agree on, today's Lebanon is worse than it was before. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Hezbollah is a post-civil war issue. PLO and the revolutionaries were the initiators of all issues. 

Factually it's not, but not sure where this debate will lead us. 

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15 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

PLO and the revolutionaries were the initiators of all issues. 

 

Well ... as a small state in a volatile region it was always going to face challenges, especially when the early Maronite Christian leadership had so much antipathy for the rest of the (Muslim) population. 

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Convinced that President al-Khoury was endangering Christian Lebanon with his wholesale collaboration with Lebanon’s Muslims, the politically active Lebanese Maronite Church concluded a secret treaty with the Jewish Agency in 1946. This was a remarkable document, expressing Jewish support for Christian Lebanon and Christian Lebanese support for a Jewish state in Palestine, replete with mutual economic, cultural and security pledges – negotiated by a Church acting in opposition to the legitimate (and Maronite-led) Lebanese government and a non-state Zionist organization operating without the knowledge of the British mandatory authority, a full two years before Israel would achieve independence! Meticulously negotiated, signed and accepted by the respective leaderships, the treaty proved utterly inoperative; once word leaked out, its very existence was adamantly denied by the Lebanese side. Most of Lebanese public opinion, both Christian and Muslim, was firmly on the side of the Arab claim to Palestine. The Church’s temptation to draw upon Zionist resources to advance exclusivist Maronite political aspirations in Lebanon was overrid- den by fear that public disclosure of its ‘unholy alliance’ would result in its total delegitimization.

Israel and Hizbollah : An Asymmetric Conflict in Historical and Comparative Perspective, edited by Clive Jones, and Sergio Catignani, Taylor & Francis Group, 2009. 

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Posted (edited)

From Wikipedia:

The Maronites also experienced mass persecution under the Ottoman Turks, who massacred and mistreated Maronites for their faith, disallowing them from owning horses and forcing them to wear only black clothing. The Turkish Ottoman Empire slew upwards of 300,000 Maronites, forced the remaining populations into the mountains (which spawned Mount Lebanon) and let another 100,000 die of starvation while stranded with no means of self-sufficiency. The Lebanese Druze also persecuted the Maronites, and massacred in excess of 50,000 of them in the mid-1800s. However, agreements have been held with the Druze. Moreover, the Maronites later emerged as the most dominant group in Lebanon, a status they held until the sectarian conflict that resulted in the Lebanese Civil War.

 

it sounds like there has been continuous conflict, even going back before the formation of Lebanon.

maybe the maronites should have been given their own country? Or maybe just left to the wolves to continue in being oppressed? I wonder if there ever truly could have been a successful way of reshaping the middle east, or if all efforts were destined to fail due to these sectarian divides.

Edited by iCenozoic
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25 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

maybe the maronites should have been given their own country? Or maybe just left to the wolves to continue in being oppressed?

 

My reading of the following chapter is that you have competing groups seeking advantage and certain following the arrival of the Europeans in the Middle East and their leverage over the Ottomans, the Maronites had little to complain about.

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This chapter explores the evolution from the political advantage held by the Druze lords in the early seventeenth century, with the Ottomans also favoring Sunni Kurds and Turcomans and Shia and Sunni Arab tribal chiefs in the north and Biqa, to powerful Maronite assertion and a Maronite-defined Mount Lebanon by the early nineteenth century. Through these two centuries, the Christian proportion of the population of the territory of the modern country of Lebanon probably doubled to a slight majority. This overwhelmingly reflected Maronite growth and the immigration of Orthodox-turned-Catholics from interior Syria, the latter creating the Greek Catholic community in Mount Lebanon. 

Harris, William. Lebanon : A History, 600 - 2011, Oxford University Press USA

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16 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

My reading of the following chapter is that you have competing groups seeking advantage and certain following the arrival of the Europeans in the Middle East and their leverage over the Ottomans, the Maronites had little to complain about.

Harris, William. Lebanon : A History, 600 - 2011, Oxford University Press USA

It sounds like the maronites were being massacred. I don't quite understand your response.

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31 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Could I ask if nowadays Shia Muslims in Lebanon are always supporting hezbollah in their majority of many of them are joining anti government protests? 

No, many Shi’as in Lebanon are supporters of Hezbollah. Some of them are anti-govt.

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34 minutes ago, Diaz said:

No, many Shi’as in Lebanon are supporters of Hezbollah. Some of them are anti-govt.

However it looks like more and more non shias are becoming anti hezbollah. 

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2 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

However it looks like more and more non shias are becoming anti hezbollah. 

Yes, sadly. Many Christians, Sunnis and Druze are against Hezbollah with minority Shi’as.

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15 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

However it looks like more and more non shias are becoming anti hezbollah. 

thats not true... where did you even get this? everyone in lebanon says "the resistance is a red line, we don't talk about them"

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9 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

thats not true... where did you even get this? everyone in lebanon says "the resistance is a red line, we don't talk about them"

Who said that? The Shi’as of Lebanon?

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

ِA guy on LBC said that.

Ok, no body knows if that guy is a Shi’a or not. Ofc, not all Christians/Sunnis/Druze hate Hezbollah but majority of them does, go to any Christians or Sunnis places and see how they are wishing death to Sayid Hassan. One of the victims parents said that explosion should be at the south of Lebanon not on Beirut, I felt sad listening to what she said. Btw, yesterday they added his pic on a hanging because they want him and other politics to be executed.

Edited by Diaz
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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

thats not true... where did you even get this? everyone in lebanon says "the resistance is a red line, we don't talk about them"

From what I saw on social media and also from what I saw among some nonshia Lebanese. 

Edited by Mohammadi_follower
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27 minutes ago, Diaz said:

Ok, no body knows if that guy is a Shi’a or not. Ofc, not all Christians/Sunnis/Druze hate Hezbollah but majority of them does, go to any Christians or Sunnis places and see how they are wishing death to Sayid Hassan. 

There had always been some opposition to hezbollah in Lebanon. But I don't think that was so strong in the past. 

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31 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

There had always been some opposition to hezbollah in Lebanon. But I don't think that was so strong in the past. 

It start increasing since last year, I’m worried maybe there will be civil war. Inshallah nothing more happens.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

If this report is true, it sounds positive even if the person who posted it isn't.

Screenshot 2020-08-09 at 19.51.39.png

Wait, so Lebanese people want to be ruled by a Democratic Party?

Edited by Diaz
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1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

If this report is true, it sounds positive even if the person who posted it isn't.

 

This sounds odd. Macron and other leaders of historic imperialist nations wish to divide and conquer in order to dominate. We shouldn’t forget France’s history in Lebanon.

As far as I know the West’s main motive is to get rid of Hezbollah and the Islamic republic of Iran because they refuse to bow down to Israel.. so this post that you attached brother seems confusing.

I feel like Hezbollah is being used as a scapegoat. The Lebanese people who oppose Hezbollah should remember their role in winning the war against Israel.

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6 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

Well ... as a small state in a volatile region it was always going to face challenges, especially when the early Maronite Christian leadership had so much antipathy for the rest of the (Muslim) population. 

Issues that could have been solved internally without the interference of foreign hands.

6 hours ago, realizm said:

Factually it's not, but not sure where this debate will lead us. 

Factually it is. 

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23 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

But there is something I don't understand. If they want to get out all the actual Lebanese politicians then who would take power in Lebanon? 

They want new people who do not support any political parties. Now I don’t know if these people exist.

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2 minutes ago, Diaz said:

They want new people who do not support any political parties. Now I don’t know if these people exist.

I think this is actually the problem. 

Most people don't know if these people exist! 

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Just now, Mohammadi_follower said:

I think this is actually the problem. 

Most people don't know if these people exist! 

Trust me, once this current government leave, they will vote for their favorite leader. I feel like the protestors are wasting time. 

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3 minutes ago, Diaz said:

Trust me, once this current government leave, they will vote for their favorite leader. I feel like the protestors are wasting time. 

Favorite leader who is? 

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