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In the Name of God بسم الله

Important Theological Discussion

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Question: If the Shari'ah/Deen was completed at Ghadeer (5:3), how do you explain the role of the subsequent Imams, as they apparently legislated new laws after the Prophet? Did they have authority to legislate (Wilayah Tashri'iyyah) or could there be another reconciliation between the two? (Question posed by @Ibn al-Hussain)

Example to draw from: In the time of the Prophet there was no Khums on income; but later the Imams said it is on income as well. Is this a Shari'ah law they came up with? Such a legislation was never mentioned by the Prophet, however, the Imams decided to mention it, due to their circumstances. 

This doesn't really make any sense considering the life of the Prophet and the verse mentioned where he is literally speaking and conveying those laws - when (5:3) came down the religion had been completed i.e there is no new Shari'ah that will come after, the Halal/Haram of Muhammad will stay as such until yawm al-qiyamah.

I understand the question is quite convoluted it essentially falls under the matter of whether the Imams have Wilayah Tashri'iyyah or not, if they do how do you justify them having it, if they don't how do you reconcile the matter?

Brother @Ibn al-Hussain believes that the Imams never had Wilayah Tashri'iyyah, so he believes that if we do see any laws by them which are not found by the Prophet, then 1) We need to find/give a good possibility that the Prophet said this, but because of what occurred after the Prophet, only the Imams know this knowledge; 2) There is no way the Prophet spoke about this, and since the Imams cannot do Tashri', then that means this must be a secondary law (application of a principle), or a political order like what khums on income is.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion Insha'Allah -

@Haydar Husayn @Mahdavist @Muhammed Ali @Qa'im @Abu Hadi

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36 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Notice it’s due to “circumstances” 

Well, circumstances have changed and Khums remains.

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وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا غَنِمْتُمْ مِنْ شَيْءٍ فَأَنَّ لِلَّهِ خُمُسَهُ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ آمَنْتُمْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أَنْزَلْنَا عَلَىٰ عَبْدِنَا يَوْمَ الْفُرْقَانِ يَوْمَ الْتَقَى الْجَمْعَانِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ {41}

[Shakir 8:41] And know that whatever thing you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah and in that which We revealed to Our servant, on the day of distinction, the day on which the two parties met; and Allah has power over all things.
[Pickthal 8:41] And know that whatever ye take as spoils of war, lo! a fifth thereof is for Allah, and for the messenger and for the kinsman (who hath need) and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if ye believe in Allah and that which We revealed unto Our slave on the Day of Discrimination, the day when the two armies met. And Allah is Able to do all things.
[Yusufali 8:41] And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

--------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6cus3SjF2c

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My 2 cents that I admit are not based on any real thought or study:

Why does the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) need to publicly announce something for it to be part of the Shariah? He didn’t gather all the Muslims around every time he said something new. I’m not sure why it couldn’t simply be that this was a matter pertaining to rulership, which is essentially the ability to levy a tax, that he only told Imam Ali (عليه السلام) about, since he was the only one who needed to know.

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2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

need to publicly announce something for it to be part of the Shariah?

Because it is a very important tax which is to be considered wajib, the Prophet didn't necessarily have to say it to everyone, but there is no clear cut Hadith addressing khums, although some may argue (30:38) 

7 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I’m not sure why it couldn’t simply be that this was a matter pertaining to rulership, which is essentially the ability to levy a tax, that he only told Imam Ali (عليه السلام) about, since he was the only one who needed to know.

This is excellent and echoing the ideas shared above.

1. We assume the Prophet did say something about a tax to the Imams

2. This was a political matter

I personally lean towards #1 and believe it was emphasized as #2, due to the justifiable circumstances of the Imams. Allah knows best. 

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1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Well, circumstances have changed and Khums remains.

Think about it Zakat has already been established which is the poor-rate. Khums on other hand is about Booty, possessing a farm which a person must give fifth of what he has or possessing a precious stone which has a lot of value which a Person has to give a fifth of its value. You get the idea.  The circumstances the Imam faced he had to establish another system called “khums” temporarily alongside zakat.  
 

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5 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Because it is a very important tax which is to be considered wajib, the Prophet didn't necessarily have to say it to everyone, but there is no clear cut Hadith addressing khums, although some may argue (30:38) 

Do you mean ayah? Because there certainly are narrations about khums. 

The prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has ultimately directed us towards the Qur'an and ahlulbayt as sources of guidance. Whether something is explained by one, the other, or both does not necessarily add or deduct from it's validity. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Do you mean ayah? Because there certainly are narrations about khums. 

The prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has ultimately directed us towards the Qur'an and ahlulbayt as sources of guidance. Whether something is explained by one, the other, or both does not necessarily add or deduct from it's validity. 

The main question isn’t about Khums, perhaps that wasn’t the best of examples, but do the Imams have the power to legislate? If they don’t, how do we reconcile what they have legislated, if they do what is the evidence for them being able to legislate. As (5:3) already denotes that the Deen is complete.

Edited by Mohammad313Ali
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1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The main question isn’t about Khums, perhaps that wasn’t the best of examples, but do the Imams have the power to legislate? If they don’t, how do we reconcile what they have legislated, if they do what is the evidence for them being able to legislate. As (5:3) already denotes that the Deen is complete.

When the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) directed us towards both the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt, he did not put limitations. Therefore if this guidance includes legislation then I think it's perfectly acceptable and consistent. 

Note that in the Qur'an Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded obedience to the ulil 'amr in the same way as towards Himself and the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

The wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is pronounced together with the wilayah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

As for the completion of the deen, I would say that designating the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt as the guides after the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was a part of this completion and therefore once again any instructions received from either would carry the same authority. 

Regarding why one would need to legislate if the religion was already complete, I am not aware of new laws or principles that were brought forward. Rather, these were typically clarifications, elaboration or the application of a rule or principle to a new situation.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

When the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) directed us towards both the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt, he did not put limitations. Therefore if this guidance includes legislation then I think it's perfectly acceptable and consistent.

The Quran was complete in its revelation and the Ahlulbayt are those who clarify that revelation to us, to accept the possibility that the Ulil Amr can legislate would contradict the Quran

1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Note that in the Qur'an Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded obedience to the ulil 'amr in the same way as towards Himself and the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

The wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is pronounced together with the wilayah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Obedience towards what their interpretation is to what has been legislated, however, for them to legislate is not something which they are allowed to do, as per the decree of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

designating the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt as the guides after the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was a part of this completion

Yes, guides but not legislators.

Edited by Mohammad313Ali
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17 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Zakat has already been established which is the poor-rate. Khums on other hand is about Booty, possessing a farm which a person must give fifth of what he has or possessing a precious stone which has a lot of value which a Person has to give a fifth of its value. You get the idea.  The circumstances the Imam faced he had to establish another system called “khums” temporarily alongside zakat.  

Khums on income (I am not talking about Khums as a whole, rather Khums on specific things like income which the Prophet never mentioned nor took), Istihbaab of ziyarat/mourning for Imam Husayn, Zakat on additional items (brought up by Imam Ali during his time) etc.

This is like saying the prophet made 5 Salat obligatory; but later on an Imam comes and says there is a 6th Salat you also have to pray which is Wajib..

 

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5 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The main question isn’t about Khums, perhaps that wasn’t the best of examples, but do the Imams have the power to legislate? If they don’t, how do we reconcile what they have legislated, if they do what is the evidence for them being able to legislate. As (5:3) already denotes that the Deen is complete.

Al Imam al Hujjah (عليه السلام) said this,

وأما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا فيها إلى رواة حديثنا فإنهم حجتي عليكم وأنا حجة الله.

"As for the the incidents (in Fiqh that happens) go back to our hadith (hadith of Ahlulbayt (عليهم السلام).) because they are my Hujjah upon you and I am the Hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)."

Al Ihtijaj, Al Tabarasi, V.2, P.283

Yes, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has completed the religion, but do we know everything about it? No. This is why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left behind the Quran and Ahlulbayt. Take the scholars/Marjas for example, when they say something is Halal or Haram, where did they get it from? They got it from the Quran and Ahlulbayt who taught the Sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

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I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

-------

For a layman like me Above is an ocean that needs to be explored to the extent humanly possible. Answer(s) to all Questions are embeded in the above Cocenpt/Principle/Fundemental Truth. 

We do not question/judge/second guess/or try to find a new and better angle form what  the Mater/Mawla has said.

. I do understand secular education has trained us differently, because those we "study" life" & "theories" in Universities were/are fallible(s). This is not bio/chem/phy/psy/math/astronomy/ nor will are trying to get the next best thing or version of iphone/mac or better search engine. This is Human/Social matters where the basic fundamental Truths have always and will always stay the same. We just use the basic to find a solution t the new issue as the human society evolves. We are not trying to outdo newton, eistien etc..or find a better theory of everything. Yes we are submitters, and proud of it. We do submit to the higher intellect/knowledge/wisdom. If you get accused of been a follower, just smile at the ignorant. 

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6 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The Quran was complete in its revelation and the Ahlulbayt are those who clarify that revelation to us, to accept the possibility that the Ulil Amr can legislate would contradict the Quran

It doesn't contradict the Qur'an as long as the Qur'an has not put such a limitation (which it hasn't)

6 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Obedience towards what their interpretation is to what has been legislated, however, for them to legislate is not something which they are allowed to do, as per the decree of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Not allowed? It doesn't say that anywhere.

5 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Khums on income (I am not talking about Khums as a whole, rather Khums on specific things like income which the Prophet never mentioned nor took), Istihbaab of ziyarat/mourning for Imam Husayn, Zakat on additional items (brought up by Imam Ali during his time) etc.

None of these are new principles, rather details on existing principles. 

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6 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

This is like saying the prophet made 5 Salat obligatory; but later on an Imam comes and says there is a 6th Salat you also have to pray which is Wajib..

 

6 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The circumstances the Imam faced he had to establish another system called “khums” temporarily alongside zakat.

this type of Khums was temporary it was established to get the Islamic state or Atleast his followers back on their feet, the rich were able to do that if they gave a fifth of their income along side Zakat. Back in the time of prophet musa and Isa (peace being upon them) the poor-rate was 10%. Approaching the imam’s ((عليه السلام)) decision on khums logically, in the time of Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام)) zakat and khums will be pretty much abrogated since no one is gonna be poor or in need due to the wealth that the imam ((عليه السلام)) will bring out from the dajalic system. now since that will happen due to circumstances then the imam’s ((عليه السلام)) temporary establishment of this particular khums is possible due to the circumstances he was in. 

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6 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Yes, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has completed the religion, but do we know everything about it? No. This is why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left behind the Quran and Ahlulbayt. Take the scholars/Marjas for example, when they say something is Halal or Haram, where did they get it from? They got it from the Quran and Ahlulbayt who taught the Sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Brother nobody is disagreeing with this, the question is whether the Ahlulbayt can legislate or not, and if not how do we reconcile what they’ve introduced after the Prophet.

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On 8/3/2020 at 9:25 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Khums on other hand is about Booty,

Salam as you said Khums was for booty of war because until end of Abbasid era beside regular army the other people were participating in wars in name of Jihad that shia people neither were participating in these wars nor they weren't  receive any share from government after war that until end of Abbasidd era shias were giving Khums to Imam (عليه السلام) or his representatives that that in time of occultation the representatives of Imam (عليه السلام) are receiving  the Khums that until his reappearance that paying Khums to Imam (عليه السلام) or his representative is sign of Shia but sunnis were paying Khums to kings until fall of Abbasids by Moghuls so they just focused on paying Zakat that in our era that Ottomans  had their own system of taxing in name of Islam that  now wahabists  completely abandoned  paying khums which ISIS members didn't  pay their khums from booty of war to their leader although  they claim that Khums is just from booty of war but our Imams put Khums on trade & business because after Imam Ali (عليه السلام) during Ummayid & Abbasids era until Safavid era weren't  participating in any war under command of any king or caliph either they weren't  receive any share from booty of war from Abbasids  & Ummayids so their Jihad is obtaining  wealth for family like Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) described a man that is trying to obatian livelihood of his family is like a person that is doing Jihad.

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11 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

they claim that Khums is just from booty of war but our Imams put Khums on trade & business

The Quran is pretty clear about khums. The poor-rate on other hand is about your yearly income through however way you earn it. But for example if someone was to win the lotto a person has to give fifth of it. The reason being it’s because it’s equivalent to finding a precious stone which has a lot of value. Trade and business are different and would be under Zakat. 
 

16 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

like Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) described a man that is trying to obatian livelihood of his family is like a person that is doing Jihad.

The imam((عليه السلام)) is saying it not in the sense the way your implying. That’s not a justification.  

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Trade and business are different and would be under Zakat

Zakat definition in Shia fiqh is different from Sunni definition that for Sunnis all trades & business must pay Zakat but in shia definition for 9 object you must pay Zakat & trade & business that are include these 9 objects like farming & jewelry must pay both of Zakat & Khums but other Trade and business like selling books  just must pay Khums .

Cases of Zakat

Zakat is an obligation in nine cases:

  1. wheat
  2. barley
  3. dates
  4. raisins
  5. gold
  6. silver
  7. camel
  8. cow
  9. sheep

Some have added wealth to the above cases, but the majority of jurists believe that it is just recommended to pay zakat in this case. 

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Zakat

16 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

The imam((عليه السلام)) is saying it not in the sense the way your implying. That’s not a justification.  

I just say it for emphasizing working for family not justification .

What's the difference between Zakat for Sunni and Shia? | Genera Q&A

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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Al-Anfaal verse 41

And know that anything you obtain of war booty - then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah, over all things, is competent.

@Ashvazdanghe

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6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Some have added wealth to the above cases, but the majority of jurists believe that it is just recommended to pay zakat in this case

This Is where i use the two weighty hadith. 
 

Sura 8:41 is pretty clear. And imams emphasised a lot on giving zakat which is from your income. 
 

As for the farm it can possibly be under zakat and khums.  

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13 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Brother nobody is disagreeing with this, the question is whether the Ahlulbayt can legislate or not, and if not how do we reconcile what they’ve introduced after the Prophet.

Ahlulbayt can do so.

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Posted (edited)

Alignment of science and religion in Shia jurisprudence

https://en.abna24.com/news//alignment-of-science-and-religion-in-shia-jurisprudence_1060347.html

 

This Is where i use the two weighty hadith. 
 

Sura 8:41 is pretty clear. And imams emphasised a lot on giving zakat which is from your income. 
 

As for the farm it can possibly be under zakat and khums.  

Salam anyway Khums is main issue between Shias & Sunnis .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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As far as Islamic Acts are concerned: Refer to Marja-e-Taqlid ( Subject Matter Experts).

It is easy to figure out the general understanding of what a Country is for a citizen, and what his/her general responsibilities are . However in Constitutional matters they refer to the High/Supreme Court. Similarly, its not hard or difficult to understand Religion, However for very technical matters refer to the ones who have Expertise in that matter. 

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/khums

--------------------

Regarding Understanding the Qur'an

H 413, Ch. 1, h 2

Muhammad ibn Isma‘il has narrated from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from Safwan ibn Yahya from Mansur ibn Hazim who has said the following.

"I said to Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).), ‘Allah by far above Majestic and Gracious to be known through His creatures. In fact, the creatures are known through Allah.’" The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "You have spoken the truth." I said, "One who knows that he has a Lord, he must also learn that his Lord agrees with certain things and disagrees with certain other things. The only way he would know what his like and dislikes is revelation or a messenger. On e does not receive revelation he must find the messengers and when finds the messengers he will know that they the Divine authority and that obedience to them is necessary.

I say to people, "Do you know that the messenger of Allah was the Divine authority over His creatures?"

They say, "Yes, he was the Divine authority." I then ask, "After the messenger of Allah who was the Divine authority over His creatures?"

They said, "After the messenger of Allah the Divine authority is the Holy Quran." I considered the Holy Quran and found out that various kinds of people consider this Holy Book as support for their beliefs. For example the Murji’a (people who say Allah has postponed punishment), the pre-determinists and the atheist who even do not believe in it but take it as the basis for their arguments against the others.

I then learned that the Holy Quran can not serve as Divine authority without a guardian whose words from the Holy Quran would be the truth. I then ask the people,

"Who is the guardian of the Holy Quran?"

They say, "Ibn Mas‘ud knew the Holy Quran, ‘Umar knew it and Hudhayfa knew the Holy Quran." I ask them, "Did they know all of the Holy Quran?" The people say, "No, they did not know all of it."

I have not found anyone who would know all of the Holy Quran except Ali ibn abu Talib ((عليه السلام).).

It is a fact that if any issue would emerge that needed a Quranic solution, except for Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) every one of the others would, in many cases, say, "I do not know." Only Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) would say, "I know." I then acknowledge that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) is the guardian of the Holy Quran and obedience to him is obligatory and he is the Divine authority over the people after the Holy Prophet (s.a.). Whatever Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) has said from the Holy Quran is the truth." The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "May Allah grant you blessing."

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