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In the Name of God بسم الله

My Position on LGBT Muslims

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20 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

 

I don't think you know my position as I haven't explained it yet regarding the Prophet's صلى الله عليه وسلم marriage to Sayyidatuna A'ishah as-Sadiqah رضى الله عنها

You're saying she wasn't 6 at the time of marriage and 9 at the time of consummation?

20 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Immoral is making bets for money over the Superbowl. Sodomy is beyond immoral

I can only refer you to the words of the Qur'an. If you want to use your own terminology then that's your choice. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has described it in His terms already. 

Note that my motivation for this point is not to appease any group or movement. The point is that we should refer to the morality and the wording of the Qur'an. 

There is a difference between someone who discourages/avoids something because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has ordained it, and the one who does this because it personally doesn't appeal to them. 

I know non practicing muslims who still avoid pork for cultural reasons. The same people also would probably refuse to marry a divorced woman, also for cultural reasons (which means that divorced women in their community are pretty much doomed). On the other hand they have no issues with consuming alcohol. 

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I would also like to add that the LGBT/Gender identity agenda is also (subtly) pushing the notion that 'non-LGBT' people should be comfortable (and accepting) to "experiment" in other "sexual ventures

Way to take the whole post out of context. He said that not condemning sins is destructive. He said the people of Lot [who engaged in sodomy in public] were aggressors, not people "being gay" as aggre

In regards to transgenderism it is very clear that transitioning from one gender to another is only applicable to those who are medically deemed to be hermaphrodites as per the ruling(s) of Ayt. Khame

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

You're saying she wasn't 6 at the time of marriage and 9 at the time of consummation?

Exactly

Quote

Note that my motivation for this point is not to appease any group or movement.

But that's how it's coming across

The Quranic narrative is suggesting sodomy is not mere "disobedience" to God, it is something much, much more abominable. It's actually an act of rebellion: "Whoever has intercourse with a menstruating woman or with a woman in her back passage, or comes to a soothsayer, has disbelieved in that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." Now I realize you may not accept this Hadith as at least one or two of the acts listed may only be makruh in your madhhab and not haram, let alone an act of kufr.

So my point is sin is calibrated on a spectrum. That's why it's divided between major and minor sins. And among major sins there are such acts that are abominable, sodomy being the classic example.

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

But that's how it's coming across

I can understand, which is why I explained the actual reason. It's part of a bigger issue where the agenda for discouraging is no longer the deen, rather personal/cultural motivations.

2 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

So my point is sin is calibrated on a spectrum. That's why it's divided between major and minor sins. And among major sins there are such acts that are abominable, sodomy being the classic example.

I think everyone agrees here. The difference lies in how we describe the sins. I prefer to use the wording of the Qur'an. You apparently prefer to describe it in your own manner.

4 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Exactly

Ok this isn't the place to derail the thread, but you're going to end up having to reject a lot of narrations from your side to defend this position. Perhaps this can be addressed in a new thread. 

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19 hours ago, Bakir said:

The professionals I am referring to are psychologists, and HIV is not a part of their field (not sure why you brought HIV to the conversation though).

I will ignore the strawman statement.

I must also say that by conversion therapy I am not referring to a personal lifestyle change or the decision to follow the rules of your religion by self-control. I am referring to the scammers who promise you that in three months you will become heterosexual. "Fake it until you make it". There are many types of "therapies", but none has demonstrated it's effective. They are all cut by the same pattern. And the very moment someone is charging for such a thing, it's a red flag.

Imagine there was a pill to cure COVID19. Nonetheless, the majority of people who take the pill end up having worse symptoms, some even die because of how the pill made it worse for them. The few that say the pill cured them, most of them tell you they lied and they continue with the same problems, and that taking the pill was a loss of time, money and health. There are very few cases that continue to say, repeatedly, that the pill indeed cured them. Some of them started writing books and podcasts on the subject, and turned into evangelist of the "infallible" pill.

^ This is the stupid nonsense we are discussing, this is conversion therapy. And I have already met enough victims myself, some of them close friends, to grow some awareness on the subject. Hope the example shreds some light.

For a gay person who is willing to live by the Islamic sunna, marrying a woman and having a relatively acceptable sexual life is possible. But let's be honest, it's not through nonsense like conversion therapy. Honesty with oneself, and a personal sexual exploration to grow some intimacy with your partner is what is necessary. Leave the nonsense for the stupid families that force their children to such criminal scammers.

fair. i can agree there is a mass of scammer nonsense. Notably however that is likely due to the vilifying of any legitimate therapy leading to this shady world underneath. We have 'validated' and 'accepted' and 'researched' therapies for practically everything in the West; even the most intimate moments between a man and woman. Yet proper research into the therapy i am referring to is not allowed, not objective, and considered "barbaric".

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

fair. i can agree there is a mass of scammer nonsense. Notably however that is likely due to the vilifying of any legitimate therapy leading to this shady world underneath. We have 'validated' and 'accepted' and 'researched' therapies for practically everything in the West; even the most intimate moments between a man and woman. Yet proper research into the therapy i am referring to is not allowed, not objective, and considered "barbaric".

Because it is not scientific and it harms people. Also there has been research for many decades already, and it brings no useful results. There may be some political reasons to ignore research on conversion therapy nowaday, but definitely, these "therapies" had their opportunity and no one brought scientific success. Therapy is just necessary for relatives and parents worried for a gay person, but in the majority of cases, gay people don't need it. Let's use common sense. In my personal circumstance, I don't need a therapist, doctor, shaman or psychologist to sleep with a woman and enjoy an active sexual life with her. I've done that plenty of times, and I've never had any problem. I just need to get rid of dishonesty, impostor syndrome and grow some confidence and intimacy with my sexual partner. This is not achieved through a conversion therapy. IF ANY, I would consider, depending on the situation, couples therapy.

The problem usually is related to how families assimilate their children's homosexuality. A person in this circumstance that choose to follow Islam has some difficulties and desires to control, but can indeed have an active enjoyable sexual life with a woman. The very same person may also choose not to follow Islam, and live an active gay sexual life. That's what makes families go mad and put their children into therapy. They cannot tolerate their son to get distance from Islam, and believe that by "solving" or "hiding" the problem with some sort of family drama, they will be able to make everything go according to their expectations.

Seriously, therapy is not needed. You either have faith in Islam or not. Period.

I wouldn't send my son to therapy if he didn't pray, if he's used to lie, or if he enjoys eating pork. I'd rather assume he made his decision.

As for having sex with women, I know that for youths who are homosexual this is a rather crazy idea. But learning more about sex and sexuality may expand our understanding on it and the way we experience it. I would recommend this even to homosexuals who are not interested in following religious lives.

---

For those willing to know more about conversion therapy, I would recommend them to research on the UN independent expert's communication (Victir Madrigal's Report on Conversion Therapy), as well as interviews of those who went through these therapies. I have no reason to hold the position I hold if it was not because of awareness. Most anti-conversion therapy activists have been people who went through these therapies and called themselves "ex-gays" for years. They are just effective for self-repression and for living a contradictory anxious life.

Edited by Bakir
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Posted (edited)

I'd like to add, in case some people may think this is just an opinion and not a responsability to be against conversion therapy.

Research has demonstrated that 80% of people who were sent to these therapies were younger than 24. Half of them are younger than 18 (not even legal age in most countries).

Research has also demonstrated that most have gone through humiliating practices. In frequent cases, there have been systematic rapes to lesbian women to cure them. Others suffer from anal exploration as a cohercitive practice. Others are forced into gendered activities (lots of sports, football, team games, etc.). Others receive electroshock "therapy", others are forced into masturbating to the opposite sex photos, etc. Most people end up with tangible psychological harms.

Most people who attend to these therapies do it not out of personal choice and freedom, but because they have to choose between therapy or getting out of the house and doomed to a socioeconomical crisis (no family and relatives support and no money). That's why many LGBT associations focus on building shelters for these young people.

In Iran these therapies, for instance, are not banned. But there is no research, they just affirm it works (that is what usually happens when you give freedom to people who are in favour of these "therapies"). Their approach is 'medical'. They use hormone therapy on perfectly healthy men and women, as if it would make some changes in sexual orientation (of course, it doesn't, and hormone therapy is in fact very risky for your health). If people going through this don't lie and say they have changed, they may be pressured into sex change.

For more info on Iran's case (to put an example of a muslim country where conversion therapy isn't banned nor controlled):

https://www.ilgaasia.org/news/2018/7/13/repost-from-6rang-reparative-therapies-on-gays-and-lesbians-through-cruel-inhumane-and-humiliating-treatments-has-increased-in-iran

The world is full of monsters, and homophobia is a reality. That's why, whatever it is the debate, I will side with my community.

Edited by Bakir
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1 hour ago, Bakir said:

I'd like to add, in case some people may think this is just an opinion and not a responsability to be against conversion therapy.

Research has demonstrated that 80% of people who were sent to these therapies were younger than 24. Half of them are younger than 18 (not even legal age in most countries).

Research has also demonstrated that most have gone through humiliating practices. In frequent cases, there have been systematic rapes to lesbian women to cure them. Others suffer from anal exploration as a cohercitive practice. Others are forced into gendered activities (lots of sports, football, team games, etc.). Others receive electroshock "therapy", others are forced into masturbating to the opposite sex photos, etc. Most people end up with tangible psychological harms.

Most people who attend to these therapies do it not out of personal choice and freedom, but because they have to choose between therapy or getting out of the house and doomed to a socioeconomical crisis (no family and relatives support and no money). That's why many LGBT associations focus on building shelters for these young people.

In Iran these therapies, for instance, are not banned. But there is no research, they just affirm it works (that is what usually happens when you give freedom to people who are in favour of these "therapies"). Their approach is 'medical'. They use hormone therapy on perfectly healthy men and women, as if it would make some changes in sexual orientation (of course, it doesn't, and hormone therapy is in fact very risky for your health). If people going through this don't lie and say they have changed, they may be pressured into sex change.

For more info on Iran's case (to put an example of a muslim country where conversion therapy isn't banned nor controlled):

https://www.ilgaasia.org/news/2018/7/13/repost-from-6rang-reparative-therapies-on-gays-and-lesbians-through-cruel-inhumane-and-humiliating-treatments-has-increased-in-iran

The world is full of monsters, and homophobia is a reality. That's why, whatever it is the debate, I will side with my community.

I don't understand. None of these are therapies. That is exactly my point. Proper therapy was never applied, just random stuff to take advantage of a population that was still mostly hated at the time these "therapies" were conducted. It was only 40-50 decades ago that americans were lynching people if they found out they were homosexuals. You think your standard therapy was applied in the 80s, 90s? Call it advantage therapy if you want. And I don't know what "therapy" in the world "forces" things on others. If people misuse and abuse their profession, that's a failure in that person and in culture, not a failure in a therapy that was never actually attempted.

It's so incredibly biased your position that I can't not reply and point out this major flaw in the bulk of what you present as "evidence". Are you really calling "coercive masturbation" an actual attempt at therapy? Since when was anything coercive or forced even defined as a legitimate therapy?

Example, obviously the "re-education" of the Uighur muslims in China is just blatant abuse of power, we don't call it therapy, but China does. Likewise, previously for homosexuals, that's what everyone accepted as the "therapy" for their own agenda, and if your evidence is based off that, well no duh it doesn't work.

In summary, appropriate, honest therapy was never conducted and most current evidence is based off majorly biased material to suit a filthy agenda.

 

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8 hours ago, dragonxx said:

I don't understand. None of these are therapies. That is exactly my point. Proper therapy was never applied, just random stuff to take advantage of a population that was still mostly hated at the time these "therapies" were conducted. It was only 40-50 decades ago that americans were lynching people if they found out they were homosexuals. You think your standard therapy was applied in the 80s, 90s? Call it advantage therapy if you want. And I don't know what "therapy" in the world "forces" things on others. If people misuse and abuse their profession, that's a failure in that person and in culture, not a failure in a therapy that was never actually attempted.

It's so incredibly biased your position that I can't not reply and point out this major flaw in the bulk of what you present as "evidence". Are you really calling "coercive masturbation" an actual attempt at therapy? Since when was anything coercive or forced even defined as a legitimate therapy?

Example, obviously the "re-education" of the Uighur muslims in China is just blatant abuse of power, we don't call it therapy, but China does. Likewise, previously for homosexuals, that's what everyone accepted as the "therapy" for their own agenda, and if your evidence is based off that, well no duh it doesn't work.

In summary, appropriate, honest therapy was never conducted and most current evidence is based off majorly biased material to suit a filthy agenda.

 

That's exactly my point. And I understand yours correctly now, I was just not aware you knew this was the state of the art in conversion "therapy".

It doesn't exist so far, in the honest sense you mean. These crimes and tortures hide under the name of conversion therapy. There are a lot of reports on this, fraud cases that were already punished in judges, scammers living off these deliriums, etc. When the UN asked countries to regulate and ban these practices it's not because of a hidden gay agenda. It's because these are actual tortures that have proven to be completelt inefficient.

In countries where such "therapies" are not banned, there is never actual research. There is no genuine interest in research (and to be honest, homosexuality isn't an illness per se to begin with, and there is no need for therapy or a cure) or in helping homosexuals. These therapies serve (homophobic) society and families, and never homosexuals.

I could elaborate more in the patterns they follow, but don't have much time. To put it in a nutshell, they tend to talk in terms that nearly anyone could feel represented (like horoscope). To put a few examples:

- Difficult childhood

- Absent father

- Arguments with mother

- Admiration for other male friends

- Low self esteem

Etc.

These are realities that most people have experienced. Nonetheless, most people aren't gay. So this us just nonsense.

They use expressions like:

"You were never born gay"

"You have always been straight deeply inside"

"Let the man within you evolve and develop"

"Find your masculine self within yourself"

Among other nonsense. As I said, they are all cut by the same pattern. All are based in complete nonsense.

In the other hand @dragonxx, if such a thing like a real therapy existed, there should be scientific conclusions available beforehand, and professional people that know the thing for real. Until then, conversion "therapy" is NOTHING but nonsense. That's why it's banned. If someone wants to do research, he can do it inside a laboratory, without ruining the lives of actual regular people.

What we are discussing here now is something that most people ignore, in fact. And most states just can't care less about it.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Bakir said:

For more info on Iran's case (to put an example of a muslim country where conversion therapy isn't banned nor controlled):

https://www.ilgaasia.org/news/2018/7/13/repost-from-6rang-reparative-therapies-on-gays-and-lesbians-through-cruel-inhumane-and-humiliating-treatments-has-increased-in-iran

It’s clearly a propaganda against Iran without any valid proof or document that just based on unverified reports from unverified source that just is suitable for anti Iran propaganda that you can find researches by Iranian sexologist but even western academic sources are censoring their read earths to show Iran as a barbaric regime.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It’s clearly a propaganda against Iran without any valid proof or document that just based on unverified reports from unverified source that just is suitable for anti Iran propaganda that you can find researches by Iranian sexologist but even western academic sources are censoring their read earths to show Iran as a barbaric regime.

You can repeat the word unverified and propaganda as much as you want. Let's tall about facts, so that language cannot be perverted by hooligan politics:

The fact is that Iran has absolutely no regulation over conversion therapy.

The fact is that there is no successful scientific research nor procedure.

The fact is that under the term Conversion therapy we find a very diverse group of methodologies that are based in organized humiliation and violation of basic human rights.

The fact is that the lack of legal regulations means you are leaving the door open for this to happen.

Learn to discriminate between what is propaganda against the Islamic Republic (which is usually very evident), and what is a real problem. Because this is how authoritarianism takes place, with the complete lack of self revision (and hordes of people calling propaganda to any attempt to do some revisions). I'm well aware of the existence of propaganda, but this is not the case at all. I'm talking about facts here.

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14 hours ago, Bakir said:

In the other hand @dragonxx, if such a thing like a real therapy existed, there should be scientific conclusions available beforehand, and professional people that know the thing for real. Until then, conversion "therapy" is NOTHING but nonsense. That's why it's banned. If someone wants to do research, he can do it inside a laboratory, without ruining the lives of actual regular people.

 

agreed, but i don't believe such research will ever be permitted sadly

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

agreed, but i don't believe such research will ever be permitted sadly

Well, I wish there was research if it could explain more about the reality of this condition.

To be honest, I'm a bit curious about that islamic narration of al Kafi that seemed to imply a "cure" (though the man seemed more like a pedophile rather than a homosexual)? I don't expect much from it, but I wonder why no one has ever said anything about it. I wonder if someone ever tried it hahah. Here is the narration (Al Kafi Vol 5 Chapter 7)

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al Husayn Bin Saeed, and Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Musa Bin Al Hassan, from Umar Bin Ali Bin Umar Bin Yazeed, from Muhammad Bin Umar, from his brother Al Husayn, from his father Umar Bin Yazeed who said,

I was in the presence of Abu Abdullah (asws), and in his (asws) presence was a man who said to him (asws): ‘May I be sacrificed for you (asws)! I love the children’. So Abu Abdullah (asws) said to him: ‘So what is it that you do?’ He said, ‘I carry them upon my back’. So Abu Abdullah (asws) placed his (asws) hand upon his forehead and turned his (asws) face away from him. So the man wept, and Abu Abdullah (asws) looked at him as if he (asws) pitied him, and he (asws) said: ‘When you go to your city, so buy a fat camel and tie it with an intense tying, and take the sword and strike the hump with a striking, taking off its skin, and sit upon it with its heat’. 

So Umar (the narrator) said, ‘So the man said (afterwards), ‘I went to my city and 
bought a camel, and I tied it down with an intense tying, and took the sword, so I struck the hump with it with a strike, and then took the skin off it, and I sat upon it with its heat. So there dropped from me, upon the back of the camel, something resembling the lizard, being smaller than the lizard, and what was with me settled down.

 

(I must admit I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of striking an animal with a sword :S)

Edited by Bakir
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Bakir said:

buy a fat camel and tie it with an intense tying, and take the sword and strike the hump with a striking, taking off its skin, and sit upon it with its heat’. 

Does anyone actually think this formula will cure someone of sexual deviancy? This reminds me of the yellow sandal hadith thread started by brother @Rauf Murtuzov "It sharpens the vision, strengthens the penis and puts away the depression"

The formula you have described is similar to the method of casting a magic spell or making a magic potion. Manipulation of natural elements in a seemingly arbitrary way to produce a supernatural result. Didn't Islam come to rid people of such superstitious behavior?

Black cat walking under a ladder on Friday the 13th?

@Follower of Ahlulbayt what does your rational cosmological argument say about this?

Edited by Cherub786
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Does anyone actually think this formula will cure someone of sexual deviancy? This reminds me of the yellow sandal hadith "It sharpens the vision, strengthens the penis and puts away the depression"

The formula you have described is similar to the method of casting a magic spell or making a magic potion. Manipulation of natural elements in a seemingly arbitrary way to produce a supernatural result. Didn't Islam come to rid people of such superstitious behavior?

Curiously enough, many people in fact believe in this. I knew about this because when I was young my father told me about it (I was still in the closet). It kind of impressed me, I was just a kid by the time. I think it's mostly superstition, but it's there in al Kafi, and it may make sense for some people :S. 

i have never heard about anyone trying it. Nonetheless, it's still less harmful than hormone therapy. I would prefer to sit on a camel, if I had to choose how to get cured lol.

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On 8/29/2020 at 2:39 AM, Bakir said:

(Al Kafi Vol 5 Chapter 7)

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al Husayn Bin Saeed, and Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Musa Bin Al Hassan, from Umar Bin Ali Bin Umar Bin Yazeed, from Muhammad Bin Umar, from his brother Al Husayn, from his father Umar Bin Yazeed who said,

I was in the presence of Abu Abdullah (asws), and in his (asws) presence was a man who said to him (asws): ‘May I be sacrificed for you (asws)! I love the children’. So Abu Abdullah (asws) said to him: ‘So what is it that you do?’ He said, ‘I carry them upon my back’. So Abu Abdullah (asws) placed his (asws) hand upon his forehead and turned his (asws) face away from him. So the man wept, and Abu Abdullah (asws) looked at him as if he (asws) pitied him, and he (asws) said: ‘When you go to your city, so buy a fat camel and tie it with an intense tying, and take the sword and strike the hump with a striking, taking off its skin, and sit upon it with its heat’. 

So Umar (the narrator) said, ‘So the man said (afterwards), ‘I went to my city and 
bought a camel, and I tied it down with an intense tying, and took the sword, so I struck the hump with it with a strike, and then took the skin off it, and I sat upon it with its heat. So there dropped from me, upon the back of the camel, something resembling the lizard, being smaller than the lizard, and what was with me settled down.

What is the grade of the Hadith according to Shia standards?

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Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Muhad Bin Al Hassan, from Al Haysam Al Nahdy, raising it, said,  ‘A man complained to Abu Abdullahasws of Al-Ubna (anal problem). So Abu Abdullah asws wiped upon his back, and a red insect dropped from him, so he was cured’.  

Al Kafi – V 5 – The Book of Marriage Ch 181 H 7

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/AlKafiVol5/Al Kafi V5The Book of Marriage (7).pdf

In this link, in page 22, all these Hadiths appears but I don't know if the chain of the narrations are strong or weak according to Shia Hadith standards.

 

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8 hours ago, Rauf Murtuzov said:

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Muhad Bin Al Hassan, from Al Haysam Al Nahdy, raising it, said,  ‘A man complained to Abu Abdullahasws of Al-Ubna (anal problem). So Abu Abdullah asws wiped upon his back, and a red insect dropped from him, so he was cured’.  

Al Kafi – V 5 – The Book of Marriage Ch 181 H 7

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/AlKafiVol5/Al Kafi V5The Book of Marriage (7).pdf

In this link, in page 22, all these Hadiths appears but I don't know if the chain of the narrations are strong or weak according to Shia Hadith standards.

 

Hmm I haven't been able to find the grading, if any member can help that would be nice.

But yeah, it's in al Kafi, no doubts about that.

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8 hours ago, Rauf Murtuzov said:

‘A man complained to Abu Abdullahasws of Al-Ubna (anal problem). So Abu Abdullah asws wiped upon his back, and a red insect dropped from him, so he was cured’.

I wish I could unread this

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The majority of Muslim scholars are still living in the middle ages in their minds. Only the reformist scholars show any hope for Muslims in modern times

but most Muslims hate the reformists, their saviors.

There is nothing wrong with being gay or straight so long as it is consensual and you are not breaking any contracts.

Maybe 25% of people are gay or have some gay leaning (bisexual). I feel bad for the 25% of Muslims who walk around with such heavy guilt and shame

for things they can not even control. It is cruelty what Muslims do to others. If you are gay be proud of being Muslim. Shame and guilt is the worse thing in life.

It brings your vibe down to hell. Being gay will never take you to hell, but the shame and guilt will.

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18 hours ago, pantheistica said:

The majority of Muslim scholars are still living in the middle ages in their minds. Only the reformist scholars show any hope for Muslims in modern times

but most Muslims hate the reformists, their saviors.

There is nothing wrong with being gay or straight so long as it is consensual and you are not breaking any contracts.

Maybe 25% of people are gay or have some gay leaning (bisexual). I feel bad for the 25% of Muslims who walk around with such heavy guilt and shame

for things they can not even control. It is cruelty what Muslims do to others. If you are gay be proud of being Muslim. Shame and guilt is the worse thing in life.

It brings your vibe down to hell. Being gay will never take you to hell, but the shame and guilt will.

The pseudo-reality which you have created for yourself is inconsiderate of the practicality of Islam and the consideration Islam has for the individual and society, you are in your own bubble of 'spirituality' and by carrying this false paradigm which you seek to apply to the whole world in order to fit with your ego, all that will result is chaos and disbelief.

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