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In the Name of God بسم الله

My Position on LGBT Muslims

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Posted (edited)

In regards to transgenderism it is very clear that transitioning from one gender to another is only applicable to those who are medically deemed to be hermaphrodites as per the ruling(s) of Ayt. Khamenei et al, the fatawa are very explicit on the matter. And as many may know, those who are considered to be in that category are a very small group and the only group allowed to be considered for such a transition. To simply say that it is permissible for an individual to engage in sexual reassignment surgery, due to whatever emotive reasons they may present - if the issue is psychological and not biological (such as the case of hermaphrodites) is strictly prohibited. 

Such rulings are those which seek to maintain the Orthodox Islamic position in accordance with the Quran & Ahlulbayt,  If one (lgbt Muslims) seek to defend this matter in a manner which is deemed unorthodox to Islam it is imperative that the arguments presented are in accordance to the Quran & Ahlulbayt,  it is fine to disagree with such rulings as long as the disagreement stems from an Orthodox position.

Now that we have that established we can then transition towards the way progressiveness in Islam is antithetical to progressing in Islam, Inshallah there can be emphasis on that statement. Progressive Muslims have sought to create this all inclusive Islam wherein irrespective of what a person's sexual orientation or sexual preferences may be, we all seek to not judge and encompass these groups embracing them with warm hands and highlighting to them that in the end only Allah can judge them and all we can do is provide them solace with the message of Islam and the spiritual harmony which it prescribes to mankind's ontological plight. 

I agree partially with such reasoning and oppose the other half in which progressive Muslims are seeking to somehow brush the strict condemnation of these vile sins and actions which spread corruption and disease within the world, and instead present these flowery and sweet words of acceptance - in lieu of not being judgemental and accepting of others. This is very destructive and will cause us as Muslims to be in a position of compromising our beliefs to appease these troubled individuals. 

As Muslims we have an obligation to embrace our struggling brothers and sisters who are having issues when it comes to their sexuality, or are for some reason seeking to transition without a medically sound reason, however, to support these troubled individuals by sharing this colorful narrative of an all inclusive Islam or misrepresenting jurisprudential rulings to push certain agendas is a grand disservice and will not aid, but rather push our Muslim brothers and sisters further astray. 

In our mosques we should have for lack of a better term ‘safe spaces’ where these individuals can speak with learned men and women who can aid in addressing their struggles privately, but on the surface be very explicit in condemning the sins of homosexuality/lesbianism and whatever may be promoted by the deviant LGBT agenda. Seeing posts that support the LGBT community and even claim that as Muslims it is fine to be a part of such a group is truly disheartening, the Quran when dealing with the people of Lot clearly addressed these individuals as aggressors, due to the sins of lust which they were committing, as it explicitly stated in a tone which seeks to highlight the severity of their crime - which was homosexual behavior.

 

  1. Sura 7: 80-81: "And Lut said to his people: Will you commit a horror that none of the world's inhabitants have committed for you?"

 

  1. 7: 81-82: "You approach men with lust instead of women. No, you are a people who go beyond the limits." (also translated as: "You are excessive people")

 

  1. 27:55: "And Lut, said to his people, do not commit immorality against your better judgment!"

 

  1. 27:56: "Do you lustfully approach men instead of women? No, you are an ignorant people."

 

  1. 29:31: "He (Lut) said:" help me, my lord, against the people who cause disaster. "

 

  1. 29:32: "And when our messengers brought the news to Abraham, they said, We will destroy the people of this city; for its inhabitants are evil." (literally: "unjust")

  2. 54:37: "And they tried to disgrace their guests (by asking them to have sex with them). Then we took their eyes off their eyesight. Then taste my punishments and my warnings."

It is imperative that as Muslims we adopt the language of the Quran in highlighting the severity of destruction this LGBT narrative is promoting and seek to not give apologetic answers which hope to resolve individualistic conflicts - Islam is an individualistic and collectivist religion and to support these Utilitarians is something which must be halted. And I am astonished that even the explicit nature of the Quran has not stopped such progressive groups from arising and supporting these individuals, if we wish to remain consistent with this new Islamic narrative we will then be defending beastiality, incest, and as we can now unfortunately see pedophilia.

 The LGBT agenda is an evil one and to associate ourselves with these individuals by simply being an ‘ally’ to this organization by compromising our beliefs in order to appease this group, or in a way seek to be apologetic or all inclusive is truly an abomination and a path to treachery and sin. Therefore, supporting queers, homosexuals, etc can only be done by compromising over our Islamic beliefs. To admonish them and to provide for them avenues to discuss their troubles and seek help is one thing and to ‘support them’ is clear misguidance and Kufr, as you all may know anal male to male copulation is an act of Kufr. I have not even scratched the surface when it comes to the complications, discrepancies, and essentially disasters of the LGBT community in general and supporting ‘LGBT Muslims’ in particular, however, I hope that this serves as a preamble to a magnum opus length of scholarly work which can be presented.

I would appreciate those who see any problems with my position to question/critique/debate me.

 

Edit 2: The updated Fatwa of Ayt. Khamanei permits SRS for those who are going through gender Dysphoria. 

https://www.leader.ir/ar/content/23919/تغيير-الجنس

I was wondering if someone can touch on this point as well, based on what I’ve understood the male who transitions to female would have the legal rulings that pertain to the female apply to them and vice versa, however, will these individuals be able to marry or as a result of them choosing that type of avenue are they to remain celibate? If the male transitioning to female can marry a male, how is this not a loophole to same sex behavior? In the sense that any gay/lesbian individual can complain that they can’t contain their desires and therefore seek this avenue. 

Edited by Mohammad313Ali
Note: I wrote this on a google doc and copy/pasted it on here
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I would also like to add that the LGBT/Gender identity agenda is also (subtly) pushing the notion that 'non-LGBT' people should be comfortable (and accepting) to "experiment" in other "sexual ventures

Way to take the whole post out of context. He said that not condemning sins is destructive. He said the people of Lot [who engaged in sodomy in public] were aggressors, not people "being gay" as aggre

In regards to transgenderism it is very clear that transitioning from one gender to another is only applicable to those who are medically deemed to be hermaphrodites as per the ruling(s) of Ayt. Khame

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Edit 3: 

If they have physical or mental problems, preventing them from knowing their gender or they feel that they are a different gender. Based on the word of the qualified Drs, it would be permissible to change.

They can marry and live a normal life. It would not be a promotion for same sex marriage. They're either men or women, who change to find their real gender and they get married to someoen from the opposite gender.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Islam is an individualistic and collectivist religion and to support these Utilitarians is something which must be halted.

Very important.

Realpolitik seems to rule over every aspect of our lives nowadays, especially in the West.  

Edited by modaoudi
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How in any way is being gay destructive? How are we "aggressors" for simply being gay? It's really sad that people like you are allowed to bully, harass and call gay people every name under the sun in this forum, but if there's genuine discussion, if the mods think that the people who disagree with you actually make valid points, the mods will close this thread.

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2 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

How in any way is being gay destructive? How are we "aggressors" for simply being gay? It's really sad that people like you are allowed to bully, harass and call gay people every name under the sun in this forum, but if there's genuine discussion, if the mods think that the people who disagree with you actually make valid points, the mods will close this thread.

I am addressing a product of the very flawed utilitarian ideology adopted by liberalism through an Islamic lens, I don't need to appease everyone, because they want to engage in this abominable sin. As for those who seek to spread this new war on morals, we will not remain silent and allow the lustful desires and inclinations of others guide us towards a just and equitable society. 

You want to engage in homosexual relations do so without forcing everyone to support you in your treacherous behavior. Don't hide behind 'love', if you simply want to love nobody is stopping you, however, wanting to have the freedom to not only engage in disease filled rectum copulation but also spread this immorality is an evil we will not support and strictly oppose. 

The majority of gay relations are founded upon lust and desire, life is so much more than satisfying your organ. What you do behind closed doors is your business, but spreading an ideology with a very clear agenda will not be tolerated. And the group I am addressing in specific is Muslims who think it is okay to support the LGBT community, because to do so would result in compromising over your own Islamic beliefs. 

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6 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

engage in disease filled rectum copulation

See this is unnecessary and totally counter-productive. We don't avoid sexual immorality in fear of diseases.

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I have a woman in my contact who was Muslim (to be honnest I am not sure she is always Muslim) who insulted people encouraging polygamy and even wanted to "kick them in the balls" (I repeat what she said) but however put a publication in support of "LGBT" later on social media. I don't know if there are many people like that nowadays in our Muslim community but I found that in some ways frightening. 

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There must be a mistake in the fatwa as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created a Male, male. He is not a hermaphrodite, he is a Male. Wouldn't it be encouraging homosexuality to the largest extent to say it is permissible for a male to become female?! On what basis does this fatwa even exist?! What if your child came and said well Sayed Ali Khamenei said its permissible as I am undergoing gender dysphoria because someone told me at corrupt childschools in the west I am a female?!!

Please ask the maraj3a to show the backing of their fatawa as this is insane!!!!

 

A BORN MALE WILL NEVER BE A FEMALE AND A BORN FEMALE WILL NEVER BE A MALE!!! EVEN WITH PUBERTY BLOCKERS THEY WILL WEAR OFF WHAT SORT OF A FATWA IS THAT THAT ENCOURAGES SUCH AN UNSPEAKABLE ACT?!!

YA IMAM MEHDI AJ WHAT STATE THIS UMMAH IS IN AFTER YOU LEFT!!!

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11 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

See this is unnecessary and totally counter-productive. We don't avoid sexual immorality in fear of diseases.

Secularists don't believe in sexual morality, therefore a reason that argues for their health being affected is indeed applicable. 

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10 hours ago, Guest Anonymous said:

Please ask the maraj3a to show the backing of their fatawa as this is insane

I have sent an email requesting clarification

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:
11 hours ago, Guest Anonymous said:

Please ask the maraj3a to show the backing of their fatawa as this is insane

I have sent an email requesting clarification

Yeah they don't answer questions about "how" they attained a certain fatwa. That's not something so easily explainable. 

4 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Secularists don't believe in sexual morality, therefore a reason that argues for their health being affected is indeed applicable. 

Our goal isn't to convince them through bad arguments. They can easily disprove such an idea that sodomy is "unhealthy". This argument doesn't convince anyone. They've been disproving it for a long time. 

You have to prove our sexual morality through the importance of submission to God, etc. Yes, it's an insanely difficult task.

11 hours ago, Guest Anonymous said:

A BORN MALE WILL NEVER BE A FEMALE AND A BORN FEMALE WILL NEVER BE A MALE!!! EVEN WITH PUBERTY BLOCKERS THEY WILL WEAR OFF WHAT SORT OF A FATWA IS THAT THAT ENCOURAGES SUCH AN UNSPEAKABLE ACT?!!

Relax please. It's a very complex metaphysical debate on existence that you are over-simplifying. The maraji have varying views on it. Some against, some for, some in-between.

Regardless of these varying views, the way I see it is that at the end of the day, we should have people following Islamic law properly. If someone follows the laws of a male, I will treat them as a male. If someone follows the laws of a female, I will treat them as a female. Of course the lines between male and female roles/laws are blurred without Islam, but the general point still stands.

Anyways, the fatawa do not indicate that it should be done casually, nor do they discuss the implications on sexual relations. The idea is that transgenderism is allowed if you psychologically belong to the opposite sex, and this must be confirmed by medical professionals.  

That's not to say that I personally believe in the legitimacy of transgenderism, but what I outlined helps us navigate this predicament. And no, I would personally never marry a transgender (a man who 'became' a woman).

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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17 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

If it is possibly for people to be born with numerous different genetic mutations and variations, then why do you you specifically reject the idea that gender may have had those occurrences? Is it a case of special pleading? Thus such an operation would be done to bring a person closer to their actual gender.

There are a few problems though. First of all, there is no objective test for this, so it's purely subjective and based on the feelings of the individual. Secondly, operations and hormone treatment cause more or less just superficial changes that in no way change the essence of what they are. If they died and were dug up hundreds of years later, they would still be recognised as the gender they were born as. To all appearances, if you ignore all the massive amounts of pro-transgender propaganda at the moment, this just seems like a mental illness, like other forms of body dysphoria.

Quote

People getting a certain case wrong is no reason to reject every potential application of the fatwa. It could be that a person is deluded or has made an erroneous judgement (a bit like anorexia where a person thinks they are fat even though they are not), and that person should not be allowed to perform what they desire. But this doesn't take away from the possibility that a small number may have been born with traits that need realigning to the actual gender.

And how do you suggest determining what the actual gender is? And deciding who is 'deluded' and who isn't? For all we know, they are all deluded.

 

Of course, I'm talking about transgenderism here. The case of intersex people ('hermaphrodites') is different. There they usually do have a dominant gender, and operations can be helpful in helping them lead a normal life.

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3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Our goal isn't to convince them through bad arguments. They can easily disprove such an idea that sodomy is "unhealthy". This argument doesn't convince anyone. They've been disproving it for a long time. 

I would have to disagree with you brother, for those doing wrong you must indicate their wrongdoings through their own idea of right i.e the pursuit of happiness - individualism. Even if they continue in their action(s) they will know that what they're doing is counterintuitive to their philosophy, It is important to point out their inconsistencies and flaws within their worldview and provide an Islamic solution. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

It is important to point out their inconsistencies and flaws within their worldview and provide an Islamic solution

Sure, but my point still stands that sodomy isn't particularly bad as far as STDs are concerned, and there's medication to treat STDs. 

It also isn't inconsistent with "the pursuit of happiness - individualism", as they will argue... see: John Corvino, Why Shouldn't Tommy and Jim have sex?

That being said, some of his arguments are such blunders, yet are lauded, which is why I wish there were more Muslim voices reaching the mainstream -- especially Shias.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

but my point still stands that sodomy isn't particularly bad as far as STDs are concerned, and there's medication to treat STDs. 

I think this is a very weak point to argue, and fear of STDs is just one issue, if you delve deeper into it you'll be able to deduce that such an act is birthed from abuse.

24 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

It also isn't inconsistent with "the pursuit of happiness - individualism"

In the pursuit of happiness you are allowed to do as you please as long as you don't harm anyone or infringe upon the rights of others, homosexuality introduces a plethora of psychological problems, diseases, and moral dilemmas to a society, which will eventually lead to its collapse as the society drifts further from God towards the illusory satisfaction of the self. I would say it is definitely inconsistent.

24 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

individualism

I meant to say Utilitarianism here.

Edited by Mohammad313Ali
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On 7/29/2020 at 11:58 PM, Mohammad313Ali said:

And I am astonished that even the explicit nature of the Quran has not stopped such progressive groups from arising and supporting these individuals, if we wish to remain consistent with this new Islamic narrative we will then be defending beastiality, incest, and as we can now unfortunately see pedophilia.

the muslim acceptance is astonishing indeed, as is the lack of foresight and denial of what's happening...

 

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39 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

In the pursuit of happiness you are allowed to do as you please as long as you don't harm anyone or infringe upon the rights of others, homosexuality introduces a plethora of psychological problems, diseases, and moral dilemmas to a society, which will eventually lead to its collapse as the society drifts further from God towards the illusory satisfaction of the self. I would say it is definitely inconsistent.

I would argue that heterosexuality prior to / outside of marriage creates similar problems.

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1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

see: John Corvino, Why Shouldn't Tommy and Jim have sex?

That being said, some of his arguments are such blunders, yet are lauded, which is why I wish there were more Muslim voices reaching the mainstream -- especially Shias.

I wasn't clear. John Corvino is dubbed the "gay moralist", he is very pro- gay stuff.

My phrasing made it seem like the exact opposite. Woops

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11 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I would argue that heterosexuality prior to / outside of marriage creates similar problems.

That is a separate discussion, however, I agree.

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19 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

That is a separate discussion, however, I agree.

No, it should fall under the same banner. We should criticize all sexual immorality not just homosexuality.

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On 8/4/2020 at 5:47 PM, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

If you've watched their videos, you know how horrendous their views are. They promote hate and act as if the West is the most evil thing in the world is non-Muslims. Their videos are what will lead people to extremism, even if that's not the intention.

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1 hour ago, gayboyanon said:

If you've watched their videos, you know how horrendous their views are. They promote hate and act as if the West is the most evil thing in the world is non-Muslims. Their videos are what will lead people to extremism, even if that's not the intention.

The only thing that is extreme is this satanic ideology, which has plagued secular societies in normalizing abominable sins. 

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On 8/2/2020 at 11:35 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Yeah they don't answer questions about "how" they attained a certain fatwa. That's not something so easily explainable. 

Our goal isn't to convince them through bad arguments. They can easily disprove such an idea that sodomy is "unhealthy". This argument doesn't convince anyone. They've been disproving it for a long time. 

You have to prove our sexual morality through the importance of submission to God, etc. Yes, it's an insanely difficult task.

Relax please. It's a very complex metaphysical debate on existence that you are over-simplifying. The maraji have varying views on it. Some against, some for, some in-between.

Regardless of these varying views, the way I see it is that at the end of the day, we should have people following Islamic law properly. If someone follows the laws of a male, I will treat them as a male. If someone follows the laws of a female, I will treat them as a female. Of course the lines between male and female roles/laws are blurred without Islam, but the general point still stands.

Anyways, the fatawa do not indicate that it should be done casually, nor do they discuss the implications on sexual relations. The idea is that transgenderism is allowed if you psychologically belong to the opposite sex, and this must be confirmed by medical professionals.  

That's not to say that I personally believe in the legitimacy of transgenderism, but what I outlined helps us navigate this predicament. And no, I would personally never marry a transgender (a man who 'became' a woman).

You I respect. I don't believe are a bad person. You have your views, but you won't let it make you discriminate against people. Other people here, though.

 

"The majority of gay relations are founded upon lust and desire"

 

That's not true. All I want to do is find someone to love, I don't even care about sex.

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38 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

All I want to do is find someone to love, I don't even care about sex.

Nobody is against 'love', if you have read about Islamic history and the poems that were proposed from man to man, you'd be astonished. 

We are against sexual immorality and the spread of it, I don't see why you are making the issue seem convoluted when it really isn't.

Also, by your logic if you want to 'love' without sexual intimacy what then causes you to not love a women? You see how it ties back to lust.

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Posted (edited)

^ well usually being gay entails falling in love with someone of the same sex. The cause being something that the individual of course isn't in control of. Nobody decides who to fall in love with, it simply happens.

Personally, I think that if a woman can be born with male organs and a male born with female organs, and if people can be born biologically in between, then it follows that their psychology can fall in between by natural means as well, given that our psychology and sexual selection is in large part driven by our biology.

Also, homosexuality is commonly observed in the animal kingdom as well, so it isn't necessarily a social or cultural construct.

Edited by iCenozoic
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

That's not true. All I want to do is find someone to love, I don't even care about sex.

This love should be found during marriage, not prior to it. I.e. You learn to love someone through marriage. And it is wajib for marriage to be heterosexual.

In non-Muslim cultures, people date and get sexually intimate and then fall in love and then get married. No rights are assured to each other, it's a very unstable relationship.

No offence, but you're being young and naïve to think that you can be in love in a relationship, and then not fall into sexual intimacy. It's not possible. 

If you cannot marry the opposite sex, because you value love, and don't think you could love the opposite sex in an intimate way, then marriage is not for you if you want to stay within the bounds of what Islam permits. In this case, you would practice celibacy.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

^ well usually being gay entails falling in love with someone of the same sex. The cause being something that the individual of course isn't in control of. Nobody decides who to fall in love with, it simply happens.

So using that logic, pedophiles and people who commit insest can't control who they fall in love with? Except in this case it isn't the same sex it is their familly memeber or a small chidren.

 

Quote

Also, homosexuality is commonly observed in the animal kingdom as well, so it isn't necessarily a social or cultural construct.

So is cannibalising your own children, throwing off a woman from a tree trunk because she isnt beautifull, killing ones brother , raping of females,polygamy of hundreds of females, etc. these also aren't a social construct either.

Now I dont say you are arguing it is good because it is in the animal kingdom but that is never a good argument to put forward.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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