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In the Name of God بسم الله

Eid al-Adha

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In a few days time it will be Eid al-Adha.  May I take this opportunity to wish my Brothers and Sisters on this forum Eid Mubarak!

This major Eid is about sacrifice.  When I read the Bible, I see that sacrifice is a major theme, starting back with Adam and flowing through the stories of the prophets right up to Jesus the Messiah.  Sacrifice in this teaching is linked to forgiveness and restoring our relationship with God.

The shedding of blood at a sacrifice shows us the seriousness of our shameful acts in God's perspective.  Forgiveness is not cheap or easy.  A price must be paid and a consiquence lived.

If you have time watch this 7min video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA2kBASOFhY

When you sacrifice this Eid what will you be thinking?  What is the symbolism in Islam for this act?  Why is it such an important part of your faith?

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1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The shedding of blood at a sacrifice shows us the seriousness of our shameful acts in God's perspective.  Forgiveness is not cheap or easy.  A price must be paid and a consiquence lived.

Our sins have already been forgiven when hajj has been performed. The sacrifice is an act of charity not “redemption” of sins.

Leviticus 4:1-35

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally [by committing one] of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, and he commits [part] of one of them

3If the anointed kohen sins, bringing guilt to the people, then he shall bring for his sin which he has committed, an unblemished young bull as a sin offering to the Lord.

4And he shall bring the bull to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting before the Lord, and he shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the bull's head and slaughter the bull before the Lord.

5And the anointed kohen shall take from the bull's blood and bring it into the Tent of Meeting.

6And the kohen shall dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain of the Sanctuary.

7And the kohen shall place some of the blood on the horns of the incense altar which is in the Tent of Meeting, before the Lord, and he shall pour all the blood of the bull onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting.

8And all the fat of the sin offering bull he shall separate from it: the fat covering the innards, and all the fat that is on the innards,

9and the two kidneys [along] with the fat that is on them, which is on the flanks; and the diaphragm with the liver, along with the kidneys, he shall remove it,

10just as was separated from the bull [sacrificed as] a peace offering, the kohen shall then cause them to [go up in] smoke on the altar [used] for burnt offerings.

11[He shall then take] the bull's skin and all of its flesh, along with its head and along with its legs, its innards and its waste matter.

12He shall take out the entire bull to a clean place outside the camp, [namely,] to the ash depository, and he shall burn it in fire on wood. Thus, it shall be burnt in the ash depository.

13And if the entire community of Israel errs because a matter was hidden from the eyes of the congregation, and they commit one of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

14When the sin which they had committed becomes known, the congregation shall bring a young bull as a sin offering. They shall bring it before the Tent of Meeting.

15The elders of the community shall lean their hands [forcefully] upon the bull's head, before the Lord, and one shall slaughter the bull before the Lord.

16The anointed kohen shall bring some of the bull's blood into the Tent of Meeting,

17and the kohen shall dip his finger from the blood, and sprinkle [it] seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain.

18And he shall then place some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. And then he shall pour all the blood onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

19And he shall separate all its fat from it and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar.

20He shall do to the bull just as he did to the bull of the sin offering thus he shall do to it. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for them [the community], and they will be forgiven.

21And he shall take the bull outside the camp and burn it, just as he burned the first bull. It is a sin offering for the congregation.

22If a leader [of Israel] sins and unintentionally commits one of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

23if his sin that he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring his offering: an unblemished male goat.

24And he shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the goat's head and slaughter it in the place where he slaughters burnt offerings, before the Lord. It is a sin offering.

25And the kohen shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour its blood onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings.

26And he shall cause all its fat to [go up in] smoke on the altar, just like the fat of the peace offering. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin, and he will be forgiven.

27If one person of the people of the land commits a sin unintentionally, by his committing one of the commandments of the Lord which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

28if his sin that he committed is made known to him, he shall bring his sacrifice: an unblemished female goat, for his sin that he committed.

29And he shall lean his hand [forcefully] on the head of the sin offering, and he shall slaughter the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30And the kohen shall take some of its blood with his finger, and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its [remaining] blood at the base of the altar.

31And he shall remove all of its fat, just as the fat was removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, as a pleasing fragrance to the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32If he brings a sheep for his sin offering, he shall bring an unblemished female.

33He shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the head of the sin offering and slaughter it as a sin offering in the place where he slaughters the burnt offering.

34And the kohen shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its blood onto the base of the altar.

35And he shall remove all its fat, just as the sheep's fat is removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause them to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires for the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, for his sin which he committed, and he will be forgiven.

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On 7/28/2020 at 1:49 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Leviticus 4:1-35

 

On 7/28/2020 at 1:52 PM, THREE1THREE said:
On 7/28/2020 at 11:56 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Forgiveness is not cheap or easy.

It’s cheap and easy. You just don’t know God’s justice and mercy. 

I'm not sure why you posted all the verses from Liviticus - the reference would have been enough.

However I think these verses show that forgiveness is not cheap or easy.  The jews had to bring a bull - something very valuable.  It had to be perfect not just 'any old animal'.

The Bull had to be killed.  Sacrifice is about death, spilt blood.  Life is valuable - to take it away even from an animal shows how serious and hard it is to be forgiven.

The whole of the sacrificial system is about perfect animals and first fruits being given to God for the people to receive forgiveness.

Justice demands a cost to forgiveness - to brush someone's evil deeds 'under the carpet' is unjust to the one who was sinned against.  How would you feel if a judge let the person, who killed your son, off without a punishment because he was a merciful judge?

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1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

 

I'm not sure why you posted all the verses from Liviticus - the reference would have been enough.

However I think these verses show that forgiveness is not cheap or easy.  The jews had to bring a bull - something very valuable.  It had to be perfect not just 'any old animal'.

The Bull had to be killed.  Sacrifice is about death, spilt blood.  Life is valuable - to take it away even from an animal shows how serious and hard it is to be forgiven.

The whole of the sacrificial system is about perfect animals and first fruits being given to God for the people to receive forgiveness.

Justice demands a cost to forgiveness - to brush someone's evil deeds 'under the carpet' is unjust to the one who was sinned against.  How would you feel if a judge let the person, who killed your son, off without a punishment because he was a merciful judge?

But in Christianity the sinner doesn't pay any price. God paid it for them. So how is that much different from God just forgiving? The end result is the same. How would you feel if a judge said he couldn't let off the one who killed your son, since a price had to be paid, but then paid that price himself, and let the killer go free? Would you feel justice had been done?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

to brush someone's evil deeds 'under the carpet' is unjust to the one who was sinned against.  How would you feel if a judge let the person, who killed your son, off without a punishment because he was a merciful judge?

Good point..and this is the reason why true justice can really never be meted out here in many circumstances in our limited human justice systems and why it will be dealt with in a completly just manner in the afterlife. Some situations such as those arising from serial killers or injustices at the hands of governments which affect vast numbers of people on a global scale, can not be dealt with fairly here. Its impossible, as how can a person, say, someone  responsible for dropping a bomb on a huge city, ever REALLY pay the price and "make whole", each and every person affected by such an attrocity? They cant, so there ISNT justice here for all these people.

About 6 months ago, i listened to a lecture where the speaker said God forgives sins, but the damage inflicted onto our own souls by comitting the sin (spiritual damage) is another matter and is much harder to "erase".  Its not apparent to us now, but the condition of our soul is somewhere between bright and dark, dark being the accumulation of spiritual damage. We suffer in both worlds due to the accumulation of this darkness, but it becomes clearly manifest to us after we die and shed this physical body, where all we will have left is our deeds and soul, in whatever condition we have moulded it into via our good and bad actions here.

I dont know exactly how this will all play out in the afterlife, but from what ive heard, our suffering/punishment is a direct result of our souls condition due to these sins, and this alone will cause us great suffering, deep regret and pain of a spiritual type, in a manner that is of a much longer and harsher duration than what a human with a physical body could ever endure through eartly justice systems or punishments.

Everything in this world is limited by the fact that we have a body. Pleasure is limited, so is pain as the physical body is only capable of so much, but once we attain to a state where we are only the soul, these limits decrease significantly, thus we will experience more pleasure or pain depending on what we have earned, so we will become capable of suffering to a much larger extent for sins such as murder, including multiple murder, etc. At the same time, we also become able to experience pleasure to an unimaginable degree, if our actions/soul have achieved such a recompense.

So to tie this back into the OP, i guess in reality, when we choose to sin, God forgives us, but essentially, we have sacrificed our own soul, as that is what is damaged by the sin. Wow, i never thought about it that way, but thats a much deeper price to pay than a bull or sheep sacrifice:sorry:

Peace:)

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10 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

However I think these verses show that forgiveness is not cheap or easy.  The jews had to bring a bull - something very valuable.  It had to be perfect not just 'any old animal'.

Has been abrogated, Hosea 6:6 

2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Ezekiel 18

10 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Justice demands a cost to forgiveness - to brush someone's evil deeds 'under the carpet' is unjust to the one who was sinned against.  How would you feel if a judge let the person, who killed your son, off without a punishment because he was a merciful judge?

Then why why do you believe Jesus died for your sins ? As I said before, you don’t know God’s justice & mercy. I quoted Leviticus 4 because you twisted why sacrifices were made exactly to justify your unjust doctrine of Jesus “dying for your sins” go give it read you will now why Jews did sacrifices. Don’t take the verses out of context.

Judge1. Once upon a time there was a young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted it and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, the judge told the young man that you will be sent to jail unless you pay 100k for bail, as the judge was finishing saying that a man came in and said to the judge “I will pay for his bail” so the judge accepted and the young man was released. 

 

Judge2. Once upon a time there was young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted the crime that he committed and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, so the judge told the young man “I will forgive you but on one condition....that you will never do it again” the young man was very glad and did not see the jail

person who was standing before judge2 regretted his crime.

that would be interpreted as the person regretted committing a sin.

the person standing before judge2 was expressing his regret and begging for mercy, when the person was begging for mercy he was begging for forgiveness, judge2 would forgive him but on a certain condition 

that would be interpreted as the person expressing his regret of committing the sin to God & asking God for forgiveness and this is the condition, 

2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

Ezekiel 18:20-21,

“The soul that sins, it shall die, a son shall not bear the sins of the father, and the father shall not bear the sins of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins  that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

Judge1 on other hand wouldn’t forgive and would send the man to jail unless someone would come bare the burden of his payment.

That would be interpreted as God wouldn’t forgive the person and the person would be sent to hell unless someone came and took his place

 

Deuteronomy 8:5 read it.

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9 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

But in Christianity the sinner doesn't pay any price. God paid it for them. So how is that much different from God just forgiving? The end result is the same. How would you feel if a judge said he couldn't let off the one who killed your son, since a price had to be paid, but then paid that price himself, and let the killer go free? Would you feel justice had been done?

Bro, these ppl expose them own selves without realising. 

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On 7/28/2020 at 5:56 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

May I take this opportunity to wish my Brothers and Sisters on this forum Eid Mubarak!

Eid Mubarak brother, thank you and may God bless you.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2020 at 3:26 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

If you have time watch this 7min video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA2kBASOFhY

When you sacrifice this Eid what will you be thinking?  What is the symbolism in Islam for this act?  Why is it such an important part of your faith?

Hi , Dave 

Quote

Story of Murder of Habil 

According to historical sources, after Habil was chosen as the successor of Adam (a),[9] Since Qabil was the elder brother, he objected to this appointment.[10] He believed that choosing Habil was not by the order of God, but Adam (a) chose him as his successor because of his own love for him.[11]

As an answer to this objection, Adam (a) asked Habil and Qabil to make a sacrifice for God; and the one whose sacrifice was accepted would secure the succession. Habil grew cattle, so he chose one of his best cattle for sacrifice, but Qabil who was a farmer chose the worst of his produce to offer.[12] Both of them went up a mountain and put their offers there. The one to catch fire would be considered as accepted by God. Habil's offer caught fire and was accepted, but nothing happened to the produce of Qabil and his offer was not accepted.[13]

 

Fire-Worshipping

Historical sources have reported about Qabil's fire-worshipping after murdering his brother. According to them, after he murdered Habil, Satan tempted him. Satan told Qabil, "that Habil's offer caught fire was because Habil worshipped fire. You should worship fire too so that your offer too catches fire and become accepted." Thus, Qabil built a house for worshipping fire and became a fire worshipper.[20] There are hadiths from Imam al-Baqir (a) and Imam al-Sadiq (a) saying that Qabil built a house for worshipping fire.[21]

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Qabil

Qabil is Cane & Habil is Abel

On 7/30/2020 at 9:23 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

However I think these verses show that forgiveness is not cheap or easy.  The jews had to bring a bull - something very valuable.  It had to be perfect not just 'any old animal'.

The Bull had to be killed.  Sacrifice is about death, spilt blood.  Life is valuable - to take it away even from an animal shows how serious and hard it is to be forgiven.

this a part of their punishment because their love to worshiping  a bull when they were in Egypt also after leaving Egypt that bull was still a sacred & favorite animal for worship between  them instead of following rules of God/Allah that mentioned  in story of red heifer in Torah  & Bible & their procrastination in killing a (Yellow) cow in Quran. 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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On 7/30/2020 at 7:18 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

But in Christianity the sinner doesn't pay any price. God paid it for them. So how is that much different from God just forgiving? The end result is the same. How would you feel if a judge said he couldn't let off the one who killed your son, since a price had to be paid, but then paid that price himself, and let the killer go free? Would you feel justice had been done?

Hey there! great response - I think we are dealing with some enormous questions here with no easy answers!  I read your response and have been thinking about it for a while - sorry for the slow response!

@THREE1THREE Thanks too for your stories and examples.

The issue of forgiveness is I think one of the places where Islam and Christianity separate - it is therefore a hard topic to address on a forum like this!  (Do PM me if you want to talk about it more.)

I can't address all your points but want to make a few comments.

We need to be careful about taking indiviual verses and passages out of the context of the whole Bible and the picture of God which is revealed through its pages.

The Bible tells the story of God dealing with people's rebelion against his authority and character.  This rebelion results in his Name being dishonoured and a separation between the creator and the creation which he loves.  Throughout this story there are a number of threads one of them is sacrifice and another is heart attitude.  God focuses on both of these without negating either one.  Sacrifice is an outward expresion and demonstarition of a spiritual reality.  Heart attitude is about an internal response to God in sincerity and repentance.

We can not play one off against the other or say either one has been abrogated.  They have different functions.  Sacrifice is about God showing that our rebelion agianst him is serious and has dire consiquenses.  It is also a preparation showing how God is going to deal with people's shameful acts once and for all.  On the oter hand, heart attitude is something God is always looking for in those who truly want to enter a relationship with him.  It is possible to do the outward acts of sacrifice but not have a heart attitude which is seeking God.  This is why God says that obedience (heart attitude) is better than sacrifice (outward symbol).

God is looking for correct heart attitude which are expressed in 2 Chronicles 7:14.  That is what will touch God's heart.  However because sacrifce is a picture, a symbol, a teaching point and a prophesy it remains important until its fulfilment and its leason is learnt.

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@Haydar Husayn @THREE1THREE

Lets look now at our stories about a judge.  The problem with stories is that they can only realy express one face of a many sided shape.  So both my story and your stories fall short of the reality of God's forgiveness.  The important thing they all are trying to address is that God is just.  Whatever we say about forgiveness,

we must always hold on to the fact that God is always just.  His character is Justice and he can not act out of character.

Our sinful and shameful deeds need to be delt with - I think we all agree with that.

They are dealt with through forgiveness and through punishment and through living the consequences.  We can not separate these three things.  If I do something that brings shame on you, something must happen to restore your honour.  If I do something that hurts another person, that person must feel that I have paid for my action.  If I go against my creators instructions, I will live the negative consequenses.

On 7/30/2020 at 9:26 PM, shia farm girl said:

Good point..and this is the reason why true justice can really never be meted out here in many circumstances in our limited human justice systems and why it will be dealt with in a completly just manner in the afterlife. Some situations such as those arising from serial killers or injustices at the hands of governments which affect vast numbers of people on a global scale, can not be dealt with fairly here. Its impossible, as how can a person, say, someone  responsible for dropping a bomb on a huge city, ever REALLY pay the price and "make whole", each and every person affected by such an attrocity? They cant, so there ISNT justice here for all these people.

This is an important point when we talk about forgiveness and justice.  There is more to forgiveness than what happens here and now there is an eternal dimension.  Human justice deals with the present but God's justice has both the present and the eternal dimension.

Lets look at some situations.  If I commit adultary and my marriage breaks up, God can forgive me but I have to live through the damaged realtionships for the rest of my life.  If I murder someone, the relatives of that murdered person must see and feel that justice has been done.  God can forgive me but it is still right that I go to prison or maybe even suffer the death penalty.

Ultimatly all our wrong actions whether they affect another person, the environment, or myself are against God.  Our wrong deeds bring shame to our creator.  This means that God is ultimatly the one who needs to deal with our sins.  I believe that in Jesus' life, death and resurection we see God's way of dealling with all the aspects of our rebelion against him.  It is not divine suicide (God forbid) or cosmic child abuse.  The trinity allows for God (The one God) to deal with the problem of sin and shame within his own being.  Jesus as part of God agrees with the Father as part of God that he will come to earth and take our punishment and cover our shame.  The sacrifical system is a picture of how this substitution will work.  Through the history of the Isrealites God is preparing the way and demonstrating that divine forgiveness comes through substitution of a perfect secrifice which can only be realized for us when the perfect member of the Godhead volutaraly gives himself as the substitute.

There is so much more to say but lets stop here for the time being!   Sorry it's such a long post.  Thank you if you have taken time to read it!

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

So both my story and your stories fall short of the reality of God's forgiveness

No it doesn’t, at this point your being arrogant. I’ve quoted all of God’s judgment which is displayed yet you come back with nonsense. 

Edited by THREE1THREE
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54 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We can not play one off against the other or say either one has been abrogated. 

It has been.

 

55 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We need to be careful about taking indiviual verses and passages out of the context

Ahh, hypocrisy. Just have a look at Trinitarian fantasies thread.

56 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

with no easy answers!

Because you know it’s unjust and contradicts Jesus teaching (Mathew 5:19-20) and tanakh.

58 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

They have different functions.

Leviticus 4 

27If one person of the people of the land commits a sin unintentionally, by his committing one of the commandments of the Lord which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

Leviticus 4

2Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally [by committing one] of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, and he commits [part] of one of them

this has been abrogated by listening to the law to wipe out the unintentional sin and adhering to the law. When the person unintentionally sin’s he sinned due to his ignorance but once he listens to the law he is no longer ignorant and his unintentional sin is wiped out.

Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Hosea 6:6 make it clear again. 

Mark 12:

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but Him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

notice the Jew said “you are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but Him”

then Jesus replies, you are not far from the Kingdom of God.

not did Jesus only agree with abrogation of sacrifices but also agrees with Judaism’s concept of God which is like Islam.

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30 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus as part of God agrees with the Father as part of God

Now God is made up of three parts. 

 

31 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

It is not divine suicide (God forbid) or cosmic child abuse. 

It is, your God committed suicide to forgive He couldn’t forgive like he did  before all though He desires mercy not sacrifice. 
 

Trinitarian:

“God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.  Simply forgiving sin does not take care of the problem of sin.”

“God does something with our sin.  All the injustices and horrible acts including the ones you and I have done (even with our thoughts) do not just disappear into thin air.  The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people’

“On certain conditions like the OT unlike your God who simply forgives people by commiting suicide. Look at the double standards. And lack of Logic.”

‘God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.’

“Hence why God says in Deuteronomy 8:5-6 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.

6And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to go in His ways, and to fear Him.”

Unlike ur God who simply forgives by committing suicide.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“Suicide is taking a life away by someone who has no right to take that life away.  Only the creator has that right.  Suicide is selfish and is an ultimate lack of faith (I do feel for those who are going through depression and stuff that would lead to suicide because I know it's very hard).  God has every right to give his life as he pleases because it's his life and he is God and creator.  It's not selfish because he knows he's the best thing for humanity and his act is saving humanity.  Big difference here.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You know very well you are running away from your double standards. Ur God simply forgives by killing himself no sense of justice whatsoever. 

When a killer does something in real life yous all voice out demanding justice and he should be sent to jail but when he is released from court yous all get angry and question the courts sense of justice.” (Trinitarian fantasies thread) 

 

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50 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If I commit adultary and my marriage breaks up, God can forgive me but I have to live through the damaged realtionships for the rest of my life

No, once your marriage breaks and is not repairable. You move on to a new relationship but the consequence is that it will always remain you had committed adultery at some point and the action you committed can be passed to ur kids, either ur daughter getting cheated on or committing adultery. 

 

 

54 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If I murder someone, the relatives of that murdered person must see and feel that justice has been done.  God can forgive me but it is still right that I go to prison or maybe even suffer the death penalty.

If you lived in the time of Moses or Jesus you would be judged by God’s judgment in the Torah since the laws of the Torah has been established as the governments law, i.e the sharia law of Moses. 
 

but since America and other countries don’t have the laws of the Torah as their law of Justice, they will judge you according to their own law. At this point you have to do what the Torah requires minus the some of the laws surrounding this particular sin and seek forgiveness from God if you are sincere. 

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1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

That is what will touch God's heart. 

No, it’s for your benefit. God doesn’t benefit anything weather someone does good or bad. If you do good you will please God by not receiving His wrath if you do bad you will receive God’s wrath in different degrees or in the day of judgment. 

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1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

through living the consequences.

Some get away with it (or God forgives their sin and let it slide depending obviously depending how major the sin is) hence way one of the reasons judgement day exists.

 

1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We can not separate these three things.

2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

they didn’t suffer any consequences after they had been forgiven by God. Many times a person out of God’s mercy won’t suffer the consequences after seeking forgiveness. Many ppl can be fortunate if they are truely sincere and go back to the soundness of the way.

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On 7/30/2020 at 9:26 PM, shia farm girl said:

So to tie this back into the OP, i guess in reality, when we choose to sin, God forgives us, but essentially, we have sacrificed our own soul, as that is what is damaged by the sin. Wow, i never thought about it that way, but thats a much deeper price to pay than a bull or sheep sacrifice

I really appreiciate your thoughtful comment.

your comment about the damage done by sin is really helpful and of course animal sacrifices can't deal with that inner spiritual damage.  Both the Incil and the Qur'an make that point.

Hebrews 10:4  It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Qur'an al-Hajj 22:37  Their meat will not reach Allah, nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you.

O God I ask that you will heal our souls of the damage done by our sin.

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33 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

You must be drunk at this point. It did at some point Leviticus 4 i’ve already quoted it, crystal clear. You quoting the Quran has nothing to do with Leviticus 4. 

 

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Hi There Three1Three

Thanks for your response - when I red it I got confused.  Sometimes I say something and you disagree and say the same thing.  Look at this

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If I commit adultary and my marriage breaks up, God can forgive me but I have to live through the damaged realtionships for the rest of my life

No, once your marriage breaks and is not repairable. You move on to a new relationship but the consequence is that it will always remain you had committed adultery at some point and the action you committed can be passed to ur kids, either ur daughter getting cheated on or committing adultery. 

The two satements in bold say the same thing.  - It's good that we agree on somethings isn't it?

3 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

with no easy answers!

Because you know it’s unjust and contradicts Jesus teaching

You seem to think there are easy answers - surely people have been talking about these things for thousands of years.  Even in Islam there are different understandings of God's justice and how and who he forgives.  These are BIG issues they involve God and his character and actions.  How can you say there are easy answers?

3 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We can not play one off against the other or say either one has been abrogated. 

It has been.

The problem with using the verses you quote are that they come at various points in Isreal's history at times when God was also, through the prophets, calling them back to temple worship.  It is clear that there are two parallel threads.  God is interested in both the outward and the inward.

In Islam is God only interested in outward demonstrations of faith like Salat and Hajj or is he also interested in our heart attitude towards him and our fellow humans?  I'm sure both of them run parallel and don't abrogate the other.

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6 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

but the consequence is that it will always remain you had committed adultery at some point 

Completely Different to what your implying.


 

8 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

You seem to think there are easy answers - surely people have been talking about these things for thousands of years.  Even in Islam there are different understandings of God's justice and how and who he forgives.  These are BIG issues they involve God and his character and actions. 

In Islam there are answers regarding God’s forgiveness and justice. Saying their no “easy” answer is not a justification and you know it. 

 

11 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The problem with using the verses you quote are that they come at various points in Isreal's history at times when God was also, through the prophets, calling them back to temple worship.  It is clear that there are two parallel threads.  God is interested in both the outward and the inward.

Theirs no problem my friend, the verses are clear they have abrogated the system in Leviticus 4 and Mark 12 shows that aswell and agrees with Samuel. 
 

Leviticus 4 came in the time of Moses the others after, no more rubbish arguments. 

14 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

In Islam is God only interested in outward demonstrations of faith like Salat and Hajj or is he also interested in our heart attitude towards him and our fellow humans?  I'm sure both of them run parallel and don't abrogate the other.

Outward means noting to God a person can be Showing off which is shirk. It all about the intention in your heart. God uses salat, Hajj, fasting and zakat as a means to test his fellow servants of the are loyal or not. 
 

Your example is rubbish. Completely different to the concept of abrogation. it has been abrogated and the evidence are their crystal clear. You as always turn why from God’s verses when they are so clear and presented to you.

surah 3:23

Do you not consider, [O Muhammad], those who were given a portion of the Scripture? They are invited to the Scripture of Allah that it should arbitrate between them; then a party of them turns away, and they are refusing.

I've come with so many verses from the Tanakh and from the gospel and you deny them arrogantly and turn away from the truth. 
 

Surah 3:70

O People of the Scripture, why do you disbelieve in the verses of Allah while you witness [to their truth]?

You deep down know all my arguments are nothing but plain truth with the verses of God. 
 

Surah 3:71
O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

ive seen that a lot from you and your other buddy. 

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