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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Posted (edited)

Along with the Qur’an and Ahlulbayt as ayaats of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which arguments for God convince you (your heart, your mind) the most?

Is it 

  • The Kalām Cosmological argument
  • Argument from Dependency / Avicenna’s necessary existence argument
  • Design Argument and Fine Tuning of the universe
  • Argument from Consciousness
  • Argument from Being
  • The implications of atheism (e.g. morality?, no value, meaning, purpose)
  • The fitrah (innate disposition) of the human being 
  • Other (please detail)?
     
Edited by Ejaz
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Everything. Who made the laws of science. Why they never randomly change. Who so accurately balanced the nuclear force so that electrons and the nucleus remain in balance and don't destroy each other. Why don't they randomly destroy each other, like, someone wakes up to a mini nuclear blast nearby because a few atoms destroyed themselves. Who gave earth, the moon and the sun perpetual motion that is constant. Who created life which is so beautiful and so complex in working.

Everything.

Last but not least, that He has created Hell where all the negative people will be locked away forever, never to bother anyone or ruin any place for anyone ever again.

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Posted (edited)

What's the difference between 1 and 3? And what is 4 and 5? It would be nice if you add links to where we can read each.

For me though, I would say it's the Argument from Dependency / Avicenna’s necessary existence argument.

In addition, everything our religion has to offer (the quran, Nahjul Balagha, our ahadith, our duas (e.g. Jawshan al Kabeer, Abu Hamza Thumali), our laws, our ethics(!), and the special texts of ours) is breathtakingly sublime SubhanAllah. The attention to detail that our ahadith, ethics, laws and etc. go into, is just soul-strikingly beautiful.

On the contrary, when you look at the opposite of Islam, i.e. Kufr, it's disgugsting. When you see lives that are lived in opposition to the divine laws off Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), whether muslim or non-muslim, it's truly an ugly sight. So the "The implications of atheism (e.g. morality?, no value, meaning, purpose)" definitly plays a strong role for me too. 

Edited by AStruggler
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AStruggler said:

What's the difference between 1 and 3? And what is 4 and 5? It would be nice if you add links to where we can read each.

For me though, I would say it's the Argument from Dependency / Avicenna’s necessary existence argument.

In addition, everything our religion has to offer (the quran, Nahjul Balagha, our ahadith, our duas (e.g. Jawshan al Kabeer, Abu Hamza Thumali), our laws, our ethics(!), and the special texts of ours) is breathtakingly sublime SubhanAllah. The attention to detail that our ahadith, ethics, laws and etc. go into, is just soul-strikingly beautiful.

On the contrary, when you look at the opposite of Islam, i.e. Kufr, it's disgugsting. When you see lives that are lived in opposition to the divine laws off Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), whether muslim or non-muslim, it's truly an ugly sight. So the "The implications of atheism (e.g. morality?, no value, meaning, purpose)" definitly plays a strong role for me too. 

But what if all that you said above  is due to your social conditioning (you were raised a Muslim, raised around people who like Islam) and so you are socially conditioned to finding Islam beautiful.  A “Kafir” finds Islam ugly, a straight jacket, a narrowness.  Why is it you see beauty while the other sees it ugly?  yes, you have a reason, I am sure you do.  But this goes to show that you can’t use it as an argument.  
 

Edited by eThErEaL
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2 hours ago, AStruggler said:

It would be nice if you add links to where we can read each

Sure. I recommend the book “The Divine Reality” for further detail.

The Kalām Cosmological argument

https://www.hamzatzortzis.com/the-qurans-argument-for-gods-existence/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi0hLjG2eTqAhW9yjgGHSkZANEQtwIwAnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9Ur8MY3fRR4&usg=AOvVaw1ETM7pS9eCqMheznq5yl0A

Argument from Dependency / Avicenna’s necessary existence argument
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_the_Truthful

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwihtpPV2OTqAhUaxzgGHbZFADkQFjAAegQICBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPDnFFFR3u6A&usg=AOvVaw1XNBC6g8_jJwNYLWbH3Xka

Design Argument and Fine Tuning of the universe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwif-Mrs2OTqAhV8zjgGHRQJAh8QwqsBMAB6BAgJEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUrpbL1LtE68&usg=AOvVaw341jIozJWCJxkSVbBWWTwb

Argument from Consciousness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_consciousness

Argument from Being

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjt1fKL2uTqAhVdyzgGHU5fABAQFjAAegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dsz2QjGHlLuM&usg=AOvVaw1234z6XNQSz3jSabjbEV7z

The implications of atheism (e.g. morality?, no value, meaning, purpose)

https://www.hamzatzortzis.com/life-without-god-the-implications-of-atheism/

The fitrah (innate disposition) of the human being 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwif-Mrs2OTqAhV8zjgGHRQJAh8QwqsBMAB6BAgJEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUrpbL1LtE68&usg=AOvVaw341jIozJWCJxkSVbBWWTwb

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjK863h2uTqAhXlyTgGHV6_CzMQtwIwA3oECAAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DIztGhOlmQMQ&usg=AOvVaw3HlKUmyg4ZgFQsyEqxY0ti

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjUwfXq2uTqAhWmzjgGHZmjCi4QFjAEegQIEhAG&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFitra&usg=AOvVaw1lhUiVnTGuXd1y9WVhWYQY

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

But what if all that you said above  is due to your social conditioning (you were raised a Muslim, raised around people who like Islam) and so you are socially conditioned to finding Islam beautiful.  A “Kafir” finds Islam ugly, a straight jacket, a narrowness.  Why is it you see beauty while the other sees it ugly?  yes, you have a reason, I am sure you do.  But this goes to show that you can’t use it as an argument.  
 

I'm not using it as an argument against others. The second part of what I said is something that's a personal thing. 

However, many of the things in our Sharia, if they're violated, then the implications are visibly ugly in the mind, at least for me. One doesn't even need to see it exemplified by someone to sense it's lowliness. So, I don't even need to necessarily look at the actual lives of kafirs, just imagining a life of not following islamic law in my mind, is enough for me to feel "disgusted" for lack of a better word. For example, the Islamic laws and guidelines when it comes to gender interactions, subhanallah, I don't think any other religion goes into this much depth. Also, the akhlaq you will find being taught in Islamic texts, you won't find that level of akhlaq being taught anywhere else. Personally, I find it all very sublime and lofty. 

Also, just reflecting on Atheism and other non-Islamic ways of life, we realize that these paths just lead to nihilism, hedonism, meaninglessness, and just chaos, so it's not even about looking at others, you can just think about it in your mind.

Also, you are assuming I grew up around relgiousity and so developed that love for Islam. While that may be true to an extent, a lot my admiration for Islam came out of my own explorations of it. I don't think any other book will hit your heart and soul, as much as the Quran and Nahjul Balagha does. 

Edited by AStruggler
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How can I summarise the proofs of the Creator of all creation in a mere number of sentences that will never be able to do justice.

On 7/22/2020 at 9:00 PM, The Green Knight said:

Everything

is my most simple yet most complex reply to this post. My mind is drawn to facts and logic whilst my heart is attracted to the spiritual connection encompassed within the fitrah we are all born with. Both together can only be satisfied by Islam and the Creator of such.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/22/2020 at 4:45 PM, Ejaz said:

 

  • The Kalām Cosmological argument
  • Argument from Dependency / Avicenna’s necessary existence argument
  • Design Argument and Fine Tuning of the universe
  • Argument from Consciousness
  • Argument from Being
  • The implications of atheism (e.g. morality?, no value, meaning, purpose)
  • The fitrah (innate disposition) of the human being 
  • Other (please detail)?
     

Some of your arguments are sub types of others that you have listed.

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2020 at 10:36 PM, AStruggler said:

I'm not using it as an argument against others. The second part of what I said is something that's a personal thing. 

However, many of the things in our Sharia, if they're violated, then the implications are visibly ugly in the mind, at least for me. One doesn't even need to see it exemplified by someone to sense it's lowliness. So, I don't even need to necessarily look at the actual lives of kafirs, just imagining a life of not following islamic law in my mind, is enough for me to feel "disgusted" for lack of a better word. For example, the Islamic laws and guidelines when it comes to gender interactions, subhanallah, I don't think any other religion goes into this much depth. Also, the akhlaq you will find being taught in Islamic texts, you won't find that level of akhlaq being taught anywhere else. Personally, I find it all very sublime and lofty. 

Also, just reflecting on Atheism and other non-Islamic ways of life, we realize that these paths just lead to nihilism, hedonism, meaninglessness, and just chaos, so it's not even about looking at others, you can just think about it in your mind.

Also, you are assuming I grew up around relgiousity and so developed that love for Islam. While that may be true to an extent, a lot my admiration for Islam came out of my own explorations of it. I don't think any other book will hit your heart and soul, as much as the Quran and Nahjul Balagha does. 

I can see how what looks “visibly” beautiful to you can look “visibly” ugly to others.  

You will be surprised how much of what we believe, what we think, what we feel are based on social conditioning and environmental factors.  All the things you mentioned can be traced back to social conditioning.  An initial seed sowed by this or that person (perhaps even before you were born) and time is what led to following a certain trajectory in life and what led you to having your current likes and dislikes. 
 

By the way, there is nothing wrong with this!  We should all embrace this.  It is what it is.  
 

the real question we have to ask is:

Q: is beauty and ugliness relative?  
A: Beauty is, in and of itself, Universal but it’s expressions are relative and multiple.

It is important to understand the universal nature of beauty and how universal beauty is accessible to each and every one and how it is not confined to your Islam or your Shiaism. The way you can have love and appreciation for a relatively beautiful expression  (I.e. your unique way being Shia and being Muslim), so also, in an analogous manner, everyone has love and appreciation for something relatively beautiful (within their own path in life.). This is because beauty is itself Universal but reveals itself through relative multiplicity.  
 

Let us not forget that to talk about relative beauty is also necessarily to talk about relative ugliness.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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On 7/25/2020 at 6:04 AM, eThErEaL said:

I can see how what looks “visibly” beautiful to you can look “visibly” ugly to others.  

You will be surprised how much of what we believe, what we think, what we feel are based on social conditioning and environmental factors.  All the things you mentioned can be traced back to social conditioning.  An initial seed sowed by this or that person (perhaps even before you were born) and time is what led to following a certain trajectory in life and what led you to having your current likes and dislikes. 

You're right, social conditioning definitely plays a role but I don't believe it's the only thing that plays a role when it comes to us accepting our faith. I believe other factors can play an even stronger role.

On 7/25/2020 at 6:04 AM, eThErEaL said:

the real question we have to ask is:

Q: is beauty and ugliness relative?  
A: Beauty is, in and of itself, Universal but it’s expressions are relative and multiple.

It is important to understand the universal nature of beauty and how universal beauty is accessible to each and every one and how it is not confined to your Islam or your Shiaism. The way you can have love and appreciation for a relatively beautiful expression  (I.e. your unique way being Shia and being Muslim), so also, in an analogous manner, everyone has love and appreciation for something relatively beautiful (within their own path in life.). This is because beauty is itself Universal but reveals itself through relative multiplicity.  
 

Let us not forget that to talk about relative beauty is also necessarily to talk about relative ugliness.  

Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing. 

On 7/25/2020 at 6:04 AM, eThErEaL said:

It is important to understand the universal nature of beauty and how universal beauty is accessible to each and every one and how it is not confined to your Islam or your Shiaism.

Just a few questions for you, they all kind of overlap:

1. How does one gain access or gain appreciation/recognition of this universal beauty? You say it's expressions are relative, but it must be the same in essence if it is to truly be the thing that it is.

2. You say universal beauty reveals itself through reletive multiplicty, but how does one know that the expression of universal beauty that he's embraced, that's "relative to him", is indeed an expression of universal beuaty? What if he's mis-defined amd embraced it?

3. Surely, ugliness does also exist, so how does one know he isn't mistaking universal beauty for an expression of ugliness? 

4. Moreover, if universal beauty's expressions are multiple, do you not believe that they must vary in value/beauty?

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On 7/26/2020 at 4:36 PM, AStruggler said:

1. How does one gain access or gain appreciation/recognition of this universal beauty? You say it's expressions are relative, but it must be the same in essence if it is to truly be the thing that it is.

The essence of Beauty is indistinguishable.  It is, in and of itself, not this or that particular kind of beauty.  A distinct mode of Beauty, an expression of Beauty, is not Beauty itself.  How does one recognize Beauty itself or Beauty as such?  By discerning what it is not.  This is called “Istighfar.” And “tawba”.  

On 7/26/2020 at 4:36 PM, AStruggler said:

2. You say universal beauty reveals itself through reletive multiplicty, but how does one know that the expression of universal beauty that he's embraced, that's "relative to him", is indeed an expression of universal beuaty? What if he's mis-defined amd embraced it?

One has to always discern and never be complacent.  Recognition of Beauty itself is not something to “attain” or “lose”.  Objects are attainable and can be lost but not Beauty as such.  Beauty as such simply IS.  It is discoverable as your natural state of Being who you already are (in and as your fitrah).  “Man arafa nafashu Faqad arafa rabbahu

On 7/26/2020 at 4:36 PM, AStruggler said:

3. Surely, ugliness does also exist, so how does one know he isn't mistaking universal beauty for an expression of ugliness? 

One could always very well be mistaking it.  At every moment discernment between that which is really the Beautiful and that which is seemingly beautiful is always necessary.  

On 7/26/2020 at 4:36 PM, AStruggler said:

4. Moreover, if universal beauty's expressions are multiple, do you not believe that they must vary in value/beauty?

Yes.  Of course.  

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@eThErEaL if you look on the whole, what humanity finds beautiful is more often in agreement and disagreement. If beauty was really just a function of social upbringing, then what we'd find is that on the whole different societies would disagree about what is beautiful and would find the opposite things beautiful and disgusting. This is not the case. Almost the entirety of humanity would agree that michelangelo's sisteen chapel is beautiful, that the temples on Angkor are beautiful, and even when it comes to physical beauty standards, at least as far as body composition are concerned, are fairly consistent over time and place (in contrast to what progressives claim.)

Virtually everyone who can understand Victorian English would agree that Shakespeare is beautiful, and likewise the Quran, Nahjul Balagha, the duas of the imams, etc. are beautiful. The Akhlaq of the Prophet (s) is beautiful.

Where beauty and ugliness get mixed up is in the tashkees of whether certain values are to human benefit or not, as well as the goodness/evil in a person's heart. The kafir will view submission to Allah as ugly because of his corrupt heart - this is not a reason to doubt the objectivity of the beauty of submission any more than the existence of colourblind people would cause me to doubt that the apple I'm looking at is red.

If you start going on a path of scepticism to doubt what your own intellectual faculties are telling you, it will be a long journey to reach the truth. In fact, beauty can tell you more about the truth in an instant than tomes of books on philosophy can in a lifetime. It is a concession to the most crass rationalism to think that beauty is purely subjective and is not "the splendor of the True" as Plato said.

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On 7/24/2020 at 7:52 AM, Mariam17 said:

How can I summarise the proofs of the Creator of all creation

The proof I offer for the existence of God is indeed creation. When you look at the flowers, sunsets, mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans, animals, the sky, stars, and babies of all kinds, you see evidence of order through creation. Even in the violent parts of nature, you see the power of God. In creation, which originates from a creator by the very nature of the word, there is a  complexity beyond man's wildest abilities. When you look at the things that man has made you see many variances. Man has the ability to create beauty and order, but man has the power to hate and destroy.  I would say that even the most beautiful thing that man can create, pales in comparison to what is created by God. I see the existence of God daily. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Ayuoobi said:

@eThErEaL if you look on the whole, what humanity finds beautiful is more often in agreement and disagreement.

“More often” implies that it is relative and therefore subjective.  And why is it about what “humanity” finds beautiful or ugly?  Is humanity an absolute measure of all things?  

Quote

if beauty was really just a function of social upbringing, then what we'd find is that on the whole different societies would disagree about what is beautiful and would find the opposite things beautiful and disgusting.

“On the whole” implies relativity and therefore subjectivity.  Even if societies agree on something this doesn’t make it an absolute measure for something.  

Quote

This is not the case. Almost the entirety of humanity would agree that michelangelo's sisteen chapel is beautiful,

I don’t find the sisteen chapel beautiful.  Is something wrong with me?  do I have a corrupt heart?

the fact that you are saying “almost the entirety of humanity” suffices to show that the beauty of the chapel is relatively beautiful.
 

Quote

that the temples on Angkor are beautiful, and even when it comes to physical beauty standards, at least as far as body composition are concerned, are fairly consistent over time and place (in contrast to what progressives claim.)

The human body might be beautiful to another human body, but a lizard or a snake might find the human body horrendous.  

Quote

Virtually everyone who can understand Victorian English would agree that Shakespeare is beautiful,

that makes Shakespeare relatively beautiful to those who understand Victorian English.

Quote

and likewise the Quran, Nahjul Balagha, the duas of the imams, etc. are beautiful. The Akhlaq of the Prophet (s) is beautiful.

again,  all relatively beautiful to those who appreciate it!  

Quote

Where beauty and ugliness get mixed up is in the tashkees of whether certain values are to human benefit or not, as well as the goodness/evil in a person's heart. The kafir will view submission to Allah as ugly because of his corrupt heart - this is not a reason to doubt the objectivity of the beauty of submission any more than the existence of colourblind people would cause me to doubt that the apple I'm looking at is red.

That is a reason to doubt the objectivity of beauty if a some people find it ugly.  Whether it is because “there is a corruption” in the heart or something else, it still makes it relatively and subjectively beautiful.  

 

Quote

If you start going on a path of scepticism to doubt what your own intellectual faculties are telling you,

My intellectual faculties tell me that something which is not absolutely beautiful is relatively beautiful.  I mean there is a very simple criteria to all this.  I am not being “skeptical” or denying anything.

 

Quote

it will be a long journey to reach the truth. In fact, beauty can tell you more about the truth in an instant than tomes of books on philosophy can in a lifetime. It is a concession to the most crass rationalism to think that beauty is purely subjective and is not "the splendor of the True" as Plato said.

Well, based on all of your examples above. beauty is definitely subjective!   You haven’t shown how and in what way beauty is objective and absolute.  
 

....................
 

Now, I have not said that beauty is absolutely relative / absolutely subjective.  There is only One Beauty, (Beauty as such), it is the Absolute Truth.  Everything else are different t modes and expressions of this One Beauty.  The expressions or modes are relatively beauty and vary.  One should not confuse a relative expression of beauty for Beauty as such (which is what you seem to be doing).

Edited by eThErEaL
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For me, it is the Prophet's persona صلى الله عليه وسلم which is the thing that convinces me of Allah's existence.

After that, the institution of Prophesy itself is the greatest proof of God's existence.

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48 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

For me, it is the Prophet's persona صلى الله عليه وسلم which is the thing that convinces me of Allah's existence.

After that, the institution of Prophesy itself is the greatest proof of God's existence.

This doesn't seem like a good argument at all.

Maybe you can clarify what you mean by the Prophet's persona.

Do you mean that he (s) showed very moral manners? 

If that is the case, I see atheists regularly who have fantastic manners and are very charitable people. 

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Mashallah beautiful and meaningful submissions. (And a good question)

I'll give you my small brained and not so intellectual argument for a change:

Science says:

Creation of universe  --> Creation of Solar system and a planet that's just close enough to produce a perfect moon and atmosphere to create and sustain bodies of water out of chaos --> Creation of small micro organisms out of water --> Creation of animals and the complex biosphere --> Subsequent creation of Ultra intelligent beings (human beings) with very complex consciousness that can question it own existence

Now I'm absolutely not refuting any of these events but to claim that every step is a product of (very very slim) chance and chaos is big cringe my man.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

This doesn't seem like a good argument at all.

Maybe you can clarify what you mean by the Prophet's persona.

Do you mean that he (s) showed very moral manners? 

If that is the case, I see atheists regularly who have fantastic manners and are very charitable people. 

What I mean is the life and times, and the personality and character, of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is for me the Hujjah of Allah's existence. You may believe that atheists are comparable to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in manners (God forbid), but I am a Muslim and do not find anyone comparable to my Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in his excellence and virtue.

Edited by Cherub786
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8 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

What I mean is the life and times, and the personality and character, of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is for me the Hujjah of Allah's existence. You may believe that atheists are comparable to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in manners (God forbid), but I am a Muslim and do not find anyone comparable to my Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم in his excellence and virtue.

This argument just doesn't seem strong at all.

I am not saying I believe anyone is comparable to the Prophet. But, literally anyone can use your argument to justify their worldview. The sikhs will say that their Gurus were such good people, that this has to be evidence for Sikhism. The atheists can say that this particular atheist personality was so perfect in his character that atheism must be true. I as a Shi'a can just say that the personality of the Imam's was so great that they must be Imams appointed by Allah. You see the slippery slope your argument leads to?

Also,

1) The Prophet (s) was a good person

2) God exists

is simply a non-sequitur. Maybe you would want to argue that his manners and life was so morally upright that he couldn't have been a liar. The non-Muslim will just respond by saying that he (s) was just pretending, and he doing all of it for fame or whatever. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

This argument just doesn't seem strong at all.

I am not saying I believe anyone is comparable to the Prophet. But, literally anyone can use your argument to justify their worldview. The sikhs will say that their Gurus were such good people, that this has to be evidence for Sikhism. The atheists can say that this particular atheist personality was so perfect in his character that atheism must be true. I as a Shi'a can just say that the personality of the Imam's was so great that they must be Imams appointed by Allah. You see the slippery slope your argument leads to?

Also,

1) The Prophet (s) was a good person

2) God exists

is simply a non-sequitur. Maybe you would want to argue that his manners and life was so morally upright that he couldn't have been a liar. The non-Muslim will just respond by saying that he (s) was just pretending, and he doing all of it for fame or whatever. 

 

You have misrepresented my position by restricting it to simply being "The Prophet (s) was a good person", but that does not fully represent my position. It is that the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم in his life and prophesy and all other aspects of his persona is the greatest proof for me of the existence of Allah. The nature of the question in the OP is such that it is asking for subjective arguments "Which argument for God convinces you the most?" So I see that the Prophet's shining virtues, combined with how he discharged his ministry and attained success against the odds, the various miracles he performed, the literal and startling fulfillment of so many of his prophecies, his creative spiritual power which produced figures like his Rightly Guided Successors and his eminent Sahabah رضى الله عنهم, whose own excellences, feats and successes must therefore be attributed not to them but to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, all of this for me is the practical and most convincing proof for the existence of the Lord of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم

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30 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

You have misrepresented my position by restricting it to simply being "The Prophet (s) was a good person", but that does not fully represent my position. It is that the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم in his life and prophesy and all other aspects of his persona is the greatest proof for me of the existence of Allah. The nature of the question in the OP is such that it is asking for subjective arguments "Which argument for God convinces you the most?" So I see that the Prophet's shining virtues, combined with how he discharged his ministry and attained success against the odds, the various miracles he performed, the literal and startling fulfillment of so many of his prophecies, his creative spiritual power which produced figures like his Rightly Guided Successors and his eminent Sahabah رضى الله عنهم, whose own excellences, feats and successes must therefore be attributed not to them but to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, all of this for me is the practical and most convincing proof for the existence of the Lord of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم

Your belief in Allah is based on a subjective argument?

Alright then... 

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20 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Your belief in Allah is based on a subjective argument?

Alright then... 

It is a combination of both subjective and objective arguments, though the strongest argument that persuades me of Allah's existence is a subjective argument. And this should not be surprising, because there are many people who receive divine inspiration from Allah, and so their belief in Him is based on something that is subjective because that divine inspiration is not experienced universally by all, yet even you must admit that if Allah is speaking to someone, for him that will be the greatest reason to believe in Allah. The Prophets of Allah never preached complex cosmological arguments, but we all know they had the highest degree of faith. What convinced them if not their experience of divine Revelation?

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2 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

It is a combination of both subjective and objective arguments, though the strongest argument that persuades me of Allah's existence is a subjective argument. And this should not be surprising, because there are many people who receive divine inspiration from Allah, and so their belief in Him is based on something that is subjective because that divine inspiration is not experienced universally by all, yet even you must admit that if Allah is speaking to someone, for him that will be the greatest reason to believe in Allah. The Prophets of Allah never preached complex cosmological arguments, but we all know they had the highest degree of faith. What convinced them if not their experience of divine Revelation?

Ok if you have objective argument then that is fine.

But don't expect to convert others or convince others that Islam is the truth based on such subjective arguments. 

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2 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Ok if you have objective argument then that is fine.

But don't expect to convert others or convince others that Islam is the truth based on such subjective arguments. 

The Quran teaches us that people don't really convert to Islam because of objective arguments and proofs. People convert to Islam because Allah enlightens their hearts and minds to the Truth. All the rational and objective proofs prove useless on someone who is spiritually deaf and blind, whose heart is covered in wraps. Guidance is from Allah, He guides whom He wills. From my experience and observation, that guidance is almost always something subjective to the one who is guided.

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4 hours ago, hasanhh said:

What is there to "argue?"  The existence of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is a simple, visual observation.

But God is not limited so he can’t be visually observed.

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4 hours ago, Ejaz said:

But God is not limited so he can’t be visually observed.

Ayats 6:96-104

Notice the words 'unzur'  and 'absara', 'Iook' and 'see'.                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

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Posted (edited)
On 8/13/2020 at 6:08 AM, eThErEaL said:

Now, I have not said that beauty is absolutely relative / absolutely subjective.  There is only One Beauty, (Beauty as such), it is the Absolute Truth.  Everything else are different t modes and expressions of this One Beauty.  The expressions or modes are relatively beauty and vary.  One should not confuse a relative expression of beauty for Beauty as such (which is what you seem to be doing).

What you are talking about here is ontology. What we were talking about earlier is epistemology. Can you sense of beauty lead to Absolute Beauty i.e. Allah or not? You say no, because beauty is "subjective." I say yes.

As for the arguments you presented about subjectivity, I already responded to them in the first post - the line of reasoning you offered would lead us to believe that because some people are colourblind, therefore colour is subjective as well. If you accept that, then you've more or less accepted the scientific worldview's epistemology and you've accepted a radical skepticism which denies formal and final causes as anything other than subjective fantoms of the human mind, which in term is going to lead to insoluable philosophical problems like the mind-body problem, the free-will problem, the personhood problem, etc.

Edited by Ayuoobi
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16 hours ago, Ayuoobi said:

What you are talking about here is ontology. What we were talking about earlier is epistemology. Can you sense of beauty lead to Absolute Beauty i.e. Allah or not? You say no, because beauty is "subjective." I say yes.

Nothing “leads” to Beauty as such (aka God)  because Beauty as such is Absolute.  God / Beauty simply IS.

Quote

As for the arguments you presented about subjectivity, I already responded to them in the first post - the line of reasoning you offered would lead us to believe that because some people are colourblind, therefore colour is subjective as well.
 

color is subjective.  Indeed.  You don’t seem to understand, brother, so allow me to reiterate again:

God is the only truly Objective Reality.  He alone is Absolute, everything else is relative.

Quote

If you accept that, then you've more or less accepted the scientific worldview's epistemology and you've accepted a radical skepticism which denies formal and final causes as anything other than subjective fantoms of the human mind, which in term is going to lead to insoluable philosophical problems like the mind-body problem, the free-will problem, the personhood problem, etc.

:hahaha:  No.

not sure where to even begin.  Perhaps we should have a call or something, this will be too much to type.  

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On 8/12/2020 at 7:29 PM, Greenthumb said:

The proof I offer for the existence of God is indeed creation. When you look at the flowers, sunsets, mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans, animals, the sky, stars, and babies of all kinds, you see evidence of order through creation. Even in the violent parts of nature, you see the power of God. In creation, which originates from a creator by the very nature of the word, there is a  complexity beyond man's wildest abilities. When you look at the things that man has made you see many variances. Man has the ability to create beauty and order, but man has the power to hate and destroy.  I would say that even the most beautiful thing that man can create, pales in comparison to what is created by God. I see the existence of God daily. 

Salam sister,

This is so beautifully put. Literally you described what was in my head.

God bless :) 

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On 7/22/2020 at 11:45 AM, Ejaz said:

Along with the Qur’an and Ahlulbayt as ayaats of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which arguments for God convince you (your heart, your mind) the most?

Is it 

  • The Kalām Cosmological argument
  • Argument from Dependency / Avicenna’s necessary existence argument
  • Design Argument and Fine Tuning of the universe
  • Argument from Consciousness
  • Argument from Being
  • The implications of atheism (e.g. morality?, no value, meaning, purpose)
  • The fitrah (innate disposition) of the human being 
  • Other (please detail)?
     

Everything, really. But the one that convinces me the most is the sacrifice of Imam al Husayn (عليه السلام),

Think about it, he brought his Family and friends to Karbala knowing that they would be killed and his Family taken prisoner so they can protect a Religion that people say is Fake.

Tell me, after the Sacrifice of Imam al Husayn how can you not believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is real?

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Queation:

14 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Everything, really. But the one that convinces me the most is the sacrifice of Imam al Husayn (عليه السلام),

Think about it, he brought his Family and friends to Karbala knowing that they would be killed and his Family taken prisoner so they can protect a Religion that people say is Fake.

Tell me, after the Sacrifice of Imam al Husayn how can you not believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is real?

What "argument" will you have if lmam Hussein had lived after you?

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On 8/22/2020 at 9:16 AM, hasanhh said:

Queation:

What "argument" will you have if lmam Hussein had lived after you?

The Miracles of the Prophets

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