TAQLEED THE FINAL THREAD

[A_KazmiSayyid313]

So basically there is undeniably no known source stating taqleed is wajib (Allah says) and we have made the Quran easy for you. so interpreter why?? Allah wants us to read his books the ahadath and other writings not sit there and just do exactly wwhat an aalim says. Plus you say fiqh but fiqh derives from firqa i.e. sects Islam never promotes sects the true laws of jurisprudence have been laid down in quran and interperted by Hadith ok. AND THEN our Marja say taqleed is wajib this makes no sense ok before you mention this letter from (AL Mahdi (AJTFS) consider how we know it's from him??? SO why our marja say this??? ALSO PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY BEARD IS WAJIB I DON'T GET IT LOOK THE VERSE OF ADORNMANTS OF CHILDREN OF ADAM (عليه السلام) COULD MEAN IMAAN. OR SOMETHING ELSE NOT NECCESRILY A BEARD I HAVE SEEN WALIS (FRIENDS OF ALLAH) WITH NO BEARD AND I KNOW THEY SHAVED I.E. I KNOW A MAN WHO WHEN VISITED BY A BLIND GIRL MADE HER SEE AGAIN WITH ISN OF ALLAH OF COURSE HE AND WHEN YOU PUT WATER ON HIS GRANDFATHERS GRAVE  IN DRY WHEATHER IT WOULD RAIN IN LIKE 5 MINUITES PLUS HE WAS AASHIQ I KNOW A WALI WHO MET PANJTAN PAAK )ASWS IN DREAM HE DIDN'T KEEP A BEARD TILL 50 AND NEVER SAID TO ANYONE THAT IT'S WAJIB SO MAKES NO SENSE both of these wali are now with Allah Fatiha please.

[The Green Knight]

Where can I read the previous, non-final threads on this?

[A_KazmiSayyid313]

56 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Where can I read the previous, non-final threads on this?

on my profile i did a previous one and more all over SC then come back to this final one please AND ALSO AFTER THIS THREAD IS COMPLETE (AND I'LL SAY WHEN IT IS) I'LL LOCK IT SO THAT NO MORE TAQLEED THREADS ARE REQUIRED AND NEW MEMBERS CAN JUST REFER TO THIS SET IN STONE ALSO ANSWER THE BEARD QUESTIONS COZ I DON'T WANT TO MAKE A SEPRATEATE FINAL BEARD THREAAD LOL

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

I am against taqleed but what are you saying.

If verses are simple and clear then prove 5:55 is for Ali (عليه السلام), why interpret it?

Prove 33:33 is for 5 people, why interpret it? And so on...

Simply say Chain of tafseer imam hassan askari (عليه السلام) has majhool narrators thus hadith of taqleed is fabricated along with all other hadiths in that book except for those that are found in other sources

Edited July 20, 2020 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[Haydar Husayn]

It’s funny how people doubt everything under the sun, but firmly believe in stuff like this:

Quote

I KNOW A MAN WHO WHEN VISITED BY A BLIND GIRL MADE HER SEE AGAIN WITH ISN OF ALLAH OF COURSE HE AND WHEN YOU PUT WATER ON HIS GRANDFATHERS GRAVE  IN DRY WHEATHER IT WOULD RAIN IN LIKE 5 MINUITES PLUS HE WAS AASHIQ I KNOW A WALI WHO MET PANJTAN PAAK )ASWS IN DREAM

I think you need to get your priorities straight.

As for me, I don’t believe taqleed in the sense it is commonly presented, with all these man-made rules, is wajib, but clearly it makes sense to refer to someone more learned than you, in any walk of life.

As for the beard it’s the sunnah of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Imams (a) after him, but if you don’t want to follow their sunnah, then that’s up to you. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the textual proof for it being wajib is that strong. On the other hand, this is clearly something Muslim men have always kept, and in many narrations there seems to be an assumption than men keep beards, so at the very least it’s a very strong Muslim custom. Why would you want to go against it? Surely it can’t be that hard to keep at least a short beard.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

As for me, I don’t believe taqleed in the sense it is commonly presented, with all these man-made rules, is wajib, but clearly it makes sense to refer to someone more learned than you, in any walk of life.

I believe the same

[Abu_Zahra]

Firstly, 'fiqh' in arabic (root: فقه ) derives from understanding/knowledge so no, it has nothing to do with فرقة. 

They are two different words with two different roots.

Secondly, what is wajib is to refer to the Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) . If you are able to derive islamic law from these sources then taqleed is not relevant for you. If you aren't, then the alternative available to you is to refer to someone who is able to derive islamic law from these sources. This is essentially what taqleed is. 

It is not very different from contemporary law. You are obliged to comply with it, and if you don't know the depths of the law then you refer to a specialist to guide you. 

Thirdly, our guides and leaders are the ma'soomeen, not modern day healers who have apparently cured people from blindness. Our reference for what is halal and haram are the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt. We won't start shaving, drinking or smoking just because someone who does so can apparently miraculously heal people. 

[gharib570]

Surely it is common sense. The golden mean usually prevails which is a fine line between seeking out guided individuals and blindly following scholars. Most Aqidah books regardless of sect usually point out that taqlid in beliefs in forbidden, but taqlid in fiqh as in prayer rules, zakaat etc is allowed. This is a crucial point to be appreciated.

The Quran condemns those who follow people who are less guided whilst there is someone more guided amongst them. However it also calls out those in the past who blindly followed the priests and rabbis, or you could say modern day sheikhs if you feel a bit cynical.

Imam 'Ali actually relied upon this verse as proof I am lead to believe:

So is He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed or he who guides not unless he is guided? Then what is [wrong] with you - how do you judge?" Quran 10:35

This verse calls out the people who have blinded followed scholars to the extent that they have followed corrupted beliefs:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. Quran 9:31

In a Shia context the most guided is the one who follows most the Quran and ahl al-Bayt - the true imams.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by gharib570

[Guest Pschological Warfare]

Keep it simple. 

Here

Faith

Quote

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof. 

Islamic Law

Quote

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

One of the Three

Quote

 i) The man concerned should be a Mujtahid (jurist)1 himself and should know the Articles of Acts on the basis of Ijtihad2 and reason (i.e. he should be a man of such high learning and scholarship that he can solve problems from his study of the Qur’an and Hadith).

    ii) If he is not a jurist himself, he should follow a jurist i.e. he should act according to the judgment (fatwa) of the jurist without demanding proof.

    iii) If he is neither a jurist nor a follower (muqallid) he should act after taking such precaution that he should become sure of his having performed his religious duty. For example, if some jurists consider an act to be unlawful and some others say that it is not unlawful, he should not perform that act and in case some jurists consider an act to be obligatory (wajib) and others consider it to be recommended (mustahab) he should perform it. Hence it is obligatory for those persons who are not jurists and cannot also take precautionary measures (ihtiyat) to follow a jurist.3

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

If you are a Lawyer, you don't need one. (i)

If you are not lawyer, you need one. (ii)

or if prefer to use Group of law experts (iii)

Commonsense.

The one who do not believe in Taqleed, are in reality asking others to do their taqleed. By giving them direction not to do taqleed. 

[The Green Knight]

Please read my argument for taqleed.

When the Prophet was leaving he nominated a successor and authority "so that the ummah is not misguided after him" (his own words). Hence we have Imamate. The Quran calls him Ool il Amr and Imam, and tells us to have the same obedience towards him than that for the Prophet. A new stage starts. The Imams prove themselves to be the undeniable bounty of our Lord and to this day the light of their guidance and the fragrance remains. Then after a while comes the colossal calamity for this world, the ghaybah. A time of great confusion. The Imamate has not ended but the Imam is not to be found. Before leaving, this Imam, this viceregent of Prophethood, this representative of the Almighty either did or did not appoint any authority for the believers. But I say how can it be that at ghaybah humanity was forsaken like that because that is simply against the Way of Allah.

[realizm]

Looking forward for the sequel. 

And also Taqleed - Attack of the clones. 

[The Green Knight]

When I was a child, I knew (orthodox) Sunni. Then they started identifying themselves as Barelvi, Deobandi and Ahl e Hadees. I start meeting Salafis. Of course, they all claim to be followers of Abu Hanifa and Ahl us Sunnah wa Al-Jama'at. But they are not. They are followers of someone who was considered a heretic back in those times, Ibn e Taymiya, Ibn Wahaab, and such. Barelvi are followers of their Imam from the sub continent. The Ahmadiyya, the Barelvi and Deobandi sects were sponsored by the British after the independence war of 1857 in the sub continent. The Salafi / Ahl e Hadees / the overwhelming majority of self proclaimed Sunni who are actually simply Saudi owned Wahabi came after WWI when British created Saudi Arabia as reward for helping defeat Turkish Ottoman Empire (which was the last real Sunni authority in the world other than perhaps Jamia Azhar in Egypt). Our ummah has been colored into various colors over the centuries. We remained in the ship of Ahl al Bait (عليه السلام) but we also had several people break away and form their own religions.

Anyway, the Sunni, imho have been majorly assimilated by the Ibn Taymiya and Ibn Wahaab religions. Its not like they converted people from other religions. Its the same people going door to door. Tomorrow they may appear in yet another flavor with the even-more-pure-islam and still claim to be Hanafis and self proclaimed Sunnis.

I want to say how did the Sunni get assimilated? It happened because they had absence of strong, inter-connected authority, an HQ like in an army. Local mini-imams of theirs started practicing their own things, made their own "perfections of the deen". Just like an army without a central command and a chain of command simply can not function and will always be defeated and conquered.

I believe this is the sole reason why our Taqleed and the authority of the Marja system is being shamelessly challenged despite vast evidences of various sort to support it. The axis of evil wants the 12'er Shia to disintegrate further and is throwing a lot of gas into the fire. They want Iran taken down because it does not comply nor obey. They don't care about disintegrating the Nizari Ismaili, the Wahabis, the Deobandi or Barelvi etc. because it is already "mission accomplished" regarding them and they either pose no threat or are allied with them or live secular, compliant lives. They picked the most illiterate and ignorant people in the world to do their bidding in this regard. The rural Punjabi becomes their foot soldier in their fight against 12'ers. A people notorious for their corruption and lack of faith. Who drink alcohol to celebrate the birthday of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). A nation known to sell anything they hold sacred even if the price is not right. There could have been no better recruits for the job. They come up with silly innovations like shahadat e silada in tashahhud to begin their work and are immune to all reason, smiling while displaying their deep ignorance as they defy all logic and all evidence.

Edited July 21, 2020 by The Green Knight

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

9 hours ago, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

Commonsense.

The one who do not believe in Taqleed, are in reality asking others to do their taqleed. By giving them direction not to do taqleed. 

Nice attempt,

But in taqleed, you people don't demand evidence for particular fatwa while the one, who abstain you from doing taqleed uses Arguments this its not taqleed if someone founds his arguments strong, he may accept it and follow his particular view. This is called "Ruju" not Taqleed.

Not a common sense, but a non sense

[The Green Knight]

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Nice attempt,

But in taqleed, you people don't demand evidence for particular fatwa while the one, who abstain you from doing taqleed uses Arguments this its not taqleed if someone founds his arguments strong, he may accept it and follow his particular view. This is called "Ruju" not Taqleed.

Not a common sense, but a non sense

Dear esteemed brother,

On behalf of the SC user base it is my honor to award you with the Darwin Award. You have overpowered us all each and every time decisively, conquered our puny arguments and perfected our deen at long last over the internet. None could stand before you. Angels must be singing praises of you, or even envy you. SC is at its knees before your genius, your logics and intellects are undeniable. You have won the game. Perhaps now you would decide to move on and fix other worlds, save more humans from ignorance?

[A_KazmiSayyid313]

3 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Please read my argument for taqleed.

When the Prophet was leaving he nominated a successor and authority "so that the ummah is not misguided after him" (his own words). Hence we have Imamate. The Quran calls him Ool il Amr and Imam, and tells us to have the same obedience towards him than that for the Prophet. A new stage starts. The Imams prove themselves to be the undeniable bounty of our Lord and to this day the light of their guidance and the fragrance remains. Then after a while comes the colossal calamity for this world, the ghaybah. A time of great confusion. The Imamate has not ended but the Imam is not to be found. Before leaving, this Imam, this viceregent of Prophethood, this representative of the Almighty either did or did not appoint any authority for the believers. But I say how can it be that at ghaybah humanity was forsaken like that because that is simply against the Way of Allah.

Bro I #G3tu but still The quran, sunnah, hadees and everything is already complete and there to guide us so why taqleed?? also  PLEASE PROVIDE ACTUAL TEXTUAL FACT AND EVIDENCE FOR BEARD AND TAQLEED AND BEARD BOTH PLS

[The Green Knight]

Just now, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

Bro I #G3tu but still The quran, sunnah, hadees and everything is already complete and there to guide us so why taqleed?? also  PLEASE PROVIDE ACTUAL TEXTUAL FACT AND EVIDENCE FOR BEARD AND TAQLEED AND BEARD BOTH PLS

If I copy/paste err.. provide the evidence, will it make you correct yourself at all? If I am to bother I have a right to know.

[A_KazmiSayyid313]

Just now, The Green Knight said:

If I copy/paste err.. provide the evidence, will it make you correct yourself at all? If I am to bother I have a right to know.

YES I BELIVE IN TAQLEED AND BEARDS BUT I NEED PROOF FOR MY IMAAN AND TO PROVE TO OTHER PEOPLE TO SHOW THEM THE WAY PLEASE

[The Green Knight]

Dear Brother

- I have already so far explained two undeniable arguments for Taqleed, Ruju, the importance of following and respecting scholars (people far more learned and incomparably more serious about religion than the rest). But you have ignored them.

- There are dozens of hadiths and there are at least two Quranic verses in favor of following scholars. I have read them as have many people. The Quran and Hadith is full of praises for the people of knowledge or those pursuing knowledge. These previous discussions where they are mentioned are right here on SC but you did not use the search function to look them up. In this thread, which you claim to be the "FINAL THREAD ON TAQLEED" I have tried to pique your curiosity about the previous "not final" discussions on the subject but you did not get the hint.

It seems to me you are not honest and do not want a discussion. Sadly such a thing happens too much here on SC and the internet. So if you really would like to know, please use the search function kindly provided by the developers of this website. In the search bar, type "taqleed" (without quotes) and you will be able to find what you ask for.

You are welcome.

Edited July 21, 2020 by The Green Knight

[Guest Jawaab]

2 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

When I was a child, I knew (orthodox) Sunni. Then they started identifying themselves as Barelvi, Deobandi and Ahl e Hadees. I start meeting Salafis. Of course, they all claim to be followers of Abu Hanifa and Ahl us Sunnah wa Al-Jama'at. But they are not. They are followers of someone who was considered a heretic back in those times, Ibn e Taymiya, Ibn Wahaab, and such. Barelvi are followers of their Imam from the sub continent. The Ahmadiyya, the Barelvi and Deobandi sects were sponsored by the British after the independence war of 1857 in the sub continent. The Salafi / Ahl e Hadees / the overwhelming majority of self proclaimed Sunni who are actually simply Saudi owned Wahabi came after WWI when British created Saudi Arabia as reward for helping defeat Turkish Ottoman Empire (which was the last real Sunni authority in the world other than perhaps Jamia Azhar in Egypt). Our ummah has been colored into various colors over the centuries. We remained in the ship of Ahl al Bait (عليه السلام) but we also had several people break away and form their own religions.

Anyway, the Sunni, imho have been majorly assimilated by the Ibn Taymiya and Ibn Wahaab religions. Its not like they converted people from other religions. Its the same people going door to door. Tomorrow they may appear in yet another flavor with the even-more-pure-islam and still claim to be Hanafis and self proclaimed Sunnis.

I want to say how did the Sunni get assimilated? It happened because they had absence of strong, inter-connected authority, an HQ like in an army. Local mini-imams of theirs started practicing their own things, made their own "perfections of the deen". Just like an army without a central command and a chain of command simply can not function and will always be defeated and conquered.

I believe this is the sole reason why our Taqleed and the authority of the Marja system is being shamelessly challenged despite vast evidences of various sort to support it. The axis of evil wants the 12'er Shia to disintegrate further and is throwing a lot of gas into the fire. They want Iran taken down because it does not comply nor obey. They don't care about disintegrating the Nizari Ismaili, the Wahabis, the Deobandi or Barelvi etc. because it is already "mission accomplished" regarding them and they either pose no threat or are allied with them or live secular, compliant lives. They picked the most illiterate and ignorant people in the world to do their bidding in this regard. The rural Punjabi becomes their foot soldier in their fight against 12'ers. A people notorious for their corruption and lack of faith. Who drink alcohol to celebrate the birthday of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). A nation known to sell anything they hold sacred even if the price is not right. There could have been no better recruits for the job. They come up with silly innovations like shahadat e silada in tashahhud to begin their work and are immune to all reason, smiling while displaying their deep ignorance as they defy all logic and all evidence.

Wow that is a good conspiracy devoid of ANY facts whatsoever.

you really must HATE anything about Sunni Muslims that you will just turn to lying to get you to sleep at night.

i really do feel sorry for you especially with thoughts like that.

[The Green Knight]

3 hours ago, Guest Jawaab said:

Wow that is a good conspiracy devoid of ANY facts whatsoever.

you really must HATE anything about Sunni Muslims that you will just turn to lying to get you to sleep at night.

i really do feel sorry for you especially with thoughts like that.