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In the Name of God بسم الله

Dress in front of mahram

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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

Salam, 

I know the limit of dress code for women and men in front of non mahram but what is the dress code or awhrah for men and women in front of a mahram? 

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Guest Zara

Interesting question. Especially wanted advice on how to dress at home in front of kids. I have a 9 year old daughter and 3 year old son. Does clothing need to be a certain length or fit? 

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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

According to Sayyed Al-Sistani, the maharim can look at every bit of eachother's bodies with the exception of the awrah (provided no lust is involved).

مسألة 13: يجوز للرجل أن ينظر إلى جسد محارمه - ما عدا العورة - من دون تلذّذ شهويّ ولا ريبة، وكذا يجوز لهنّ النظر إلى ما عدا العورة من جسده بلا تلذّذ شهويّ ولا ريبة، والمراد بالمحارم من يحرم عليه نكاحهنّ أبداً من جهة النسب أو الرضاع أو المصاهرة دون غيرها كالزناء واللواط واللعان.

The meaning of awrah is explained in the fatwa above it, it means the front and rear private parts.

I will make a note and say that although this is the technical fatwa, this is not a ethical guide on how one should dress and present themselves. This is merely a haram and halal question, and as far as how one should dress, I would assume most believers have enough gheera to cover themselves properly.

Thanks. But there is just one thing I don't understand. That means that both males and females could be "topless" in front of their mahram? Or chest is part of awhrah? 

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19 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Thanks. But there is just one thing I don't understand. That means that both males and females could be "topless" in front of their mahram? Or chest is part of awhrah? 

Chest isn't part of the awrah when it comes to maharim. 

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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Chest isn't part of the awrah when it comes to maharim. 

OK interesting I didn't know males and females could be topless in front of their mahram. 

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

OK interesting I didn't know males and females could be topless in front of their mahram. 

No, that's not right. A mother should not be topless in front of her kids. The bathing suit or underwear (bra and panties) is the limit, but wearing underwear in front of your kids is too revealing. Wearing a tshirt and shorts as pajamas might be okay. Many Muslims use "face and hands" as their guideline even in front of mahram. So a woman could wear for her own husband a sleeveless V-neck shirt showing her arms and cleavage (and shorts showing her legs), but she would never wear that in front of her own father or her husband's father. That would be disrespectful and perceived as lewd according to her Muslim family's tradition and culture. 

Edited by Hameedeh
tradition and culture
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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

No, that's not right. A mother should not be topless in front of her kids. The bathing suit or underwear (bra and panties) is the limit, but wearing underwear in front of your kids is too revealing. Wearing a tshirt and shorts as pajamas might be okay. Many Muslims use "face and hands" as their guideline even in front of mahram. So a woman could wear for her own husband a sleeveless V-neck shirt showing her arms and cleavage (and shorts showing her legs), but she would never wear that in front of her own father or her husband's father. That would be disrespectful and perceived as lewd according to her Muslim family's tradition and culture. 

But this is not what said the fatwa brother Sumerian shared. Or maybe I didn't understand it. 

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1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

But this is not what said the fatwa brother Sumerian shared. Or maybe I didn't understand it. 

A fatwa is a ruling for an ideal situation. There are always exceptions. If my apartment is on fire, can I run out the door in my pajamas with no headscarf on? Emergency situations are different than ideal situations. InShaAllah Brother @Sumerian will reply to you again. 

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Guest Molana Laddan

Also a Fatwa is only A fatwa. Each fatwa has to be read and followed along with other fatawa (plural) in the same topic. Still then only fatwa would land you nowhere, there is another thing called Islamic Akhlaq (aka Islamic mannerism aka Islamic way of life aka Adaab). 
 

A few Akhlaq points related to this topic (Quran, Hadith, Fiqh / Fatwa):

1. Separate the bed of the male female siblings when they are age of 7

2. Mothers & sisters cover their awra from even a mahram boy if he recognizes female body differences 

3. Kissing on lips is only allowed to a baby of less than two years (by the baby’s parents only) or only between spouses 

4. Fathers discouraged hugging older daughters from front or behind

5. Mothers discouraged hugging older sons from front 

6. Having separate areas of house for men and women (this is not vogue but is very practical and should come back in practice)

7. Enter the room of your parents with announcement, knocking at the door, waiting before being permitted in

8. Don’t talk in the restroom, don’t sing in shower

9. Separate laundry for men and women of the same home 

10. Don’t roam around semi naked in your own house 

11. While changing clothes, replace pants to pants first and then shirt to shirt. Just in case if someone happens to see by mistake, doesn’t get to see you all nude

12. Women and men wear loose clothing at home (and else where but we are talking about manners in front of mahram)

13. Don’t display your physical affection between spouses to other mahram at home 

and on and on.. 

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36 minutes ago, Guest Molana Laddan said:

there is another thing called Islamic Akhlaq (aka Islamic mannerism aka Islamic way of life aka Adaab). 

 

36 minutes ago, Guest Molana Laddan said:

10. Don’t roam around semi naked in your own house 

11. While changing clothes, replace pants to pants first and then shirt to shirt. Just in case if someone happens to see by mistake, doesn’t get to see you all nude

12. Women and men wear loose clothing at home (and else where but we are talking about manners in front of mahram)

You explained it well, although some might question the other points. When parents do not teach things, our young people lack knowledge. Grandparents, aunts and uncles could make sure the youngsters understand Islamic ideals. Alhamdulillah ShiaChat guests help, too. 

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  • Advanced Member
On 7/23/2020 at 11:04 AM, Mohammadi_follower said:

But this is not what said the fatwa brother Sumerian shared. Or maybe I didn't understand it. 

A fatwa telling you that act x is haram tells you that doing act x is when you're officially crossing the limit and the boundary that God has set for man. Once you commit act x, it means you have officially committed a sin and have violated divine law. 

Just because something is halal it doesn't mean it's the optimal decision...

Just because something is halal it doesn't mean it's the best decision from the akhlaqi point of view...

Watching halal TV all night might not be haram but is it bringing you closer to God? Is it bringing any benefit to your life? No, it's likely doing you a disservice, but yes, you may not be inviting punishment your way since you're not officially crossing the boundary. 

As believers awaiting the Imam (a) of our time, we should try to not live on the edge; right by the boundaries. Instead, we should try to make decisions that will bring us the most benefit, and keep us away from harm.

A women being topless in front of her offspring may not technically be a sin, according to the fatwa that brother quoted above, but it's definitely not a good thing for her to do from an akhlaqi, psychological, and general modesty point of view...

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Posted (edited)

This is similar to the question that has been raised on what is male awrah. While other madhahib tend to obligate significant cover for males when it comes to being around non-mahrams, such as cover from navel to knee, our jurists tend to conclude that only the the rear and private parts is obligatory cover for the male, and the onus is on the women to not look at the man's chest, thighs, etc..

While this is the fatwa, it is not an ethics guide.

Edited by Sumerian
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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Veteran Member
On 7/23/2020 at 4:02 PM, Hameedeh said:

No, that's not right. A mother should not be topless in front of her kids. The bathing suit or underwear (bra and panties) is the limit, but wearing underwear in front of your kids is too revealing. Wearing a tshirt and shorts as pajamas might be okay. Many Muslims use "face and hands" as their guideline even in front of mahram. So a woman could wear for her own husband a sleeveless V-neck shirt showing her arms and cleavage (and shorts showing her legs), but she would never wear that in front of her own father or her husband's father. That would be disrespectful and perceived as lewd according to her Muslim family's tradition and culture. 

:salam:

You are over generalising here, sister. This might be a Persian standard but I can assure you it's not the case in many other Muslim countries. 

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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
1 hour ago, realizm said:

:salam:

You are over generalising here, sister. This might be a Persian standard but I can assure you it's not the case in many other Muslim countries. 

Salam, 

Could you elaborate more ajout this point? 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Salam, 

Could you elaborate more ajout this point? 

Salam,

I am saying everybody does not consider shameful to be dressed in front of mahram as described by the sister. 

Edited by realizm
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