Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest Strong

Is physical violence acceptable grounds for divorce in Shi’a Islam?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Guest Strong

If a man is abusing her wife and not agreeing on khula, will Shi’a Islam allow her to divorce? Will the judge agree?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Guest Strong said:

If a man is abusing her wife and not agreeing on khula, will Shi’a Islam allow her to divorce? Will the judge agree?

Regardless of divorce status, if she is in danger she must leave and take any children with her, at least temporarily until the man is stable and capable of consistently acting like an adult! 

It is better to remain alone hanging as a not-divorced-but-not-living-in-marriage woman than to endure abuse or see her children being abused. 

Her parents' home is probably a good choice. If she has any hope of reconcilation, she should not discuss the situation with anyone more than is needed to ensure safety of herself and children. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest yu!Monad

According to Sistani.

Khula' Divorce or Talaqul Khula'

Issue 2537: * The divorce of a wife who develops an aversion from husband and hates him, and surrenders to him her Mahr or some of her property so that he may divorce her, is called Khula' Divorce. The hatred must have reached a proportion where she would not allow him conjugal rights.

https://www.al-islam.org/introduction-rights-and-duties-women-islam-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/divorce-islam

Although I would take the advice in the book with a pinch of salt, meaning do not take as is, but rather using reason and not coerced guilt.

It may be asked: What must a wife do if her husband beats her, does not provide her nafaqah, makes life hard on her, does not correctly perform his sexual duties, torments and harasses her, curses and swears at her, and even refrains from divorcing her? Do you tell her to have patience and “grin and bear it” until her death arrives? Why have women not been given the right to divorce in such cases, so that they may be freed of their torturous prison?

In answer it is said: Islam is based upon justice, fairness, and human rights; thus it never allows or approves of such indecent and oppressive behavior. Islam greatly opposes such mannerisms and defends the rights of women.

In such cases, a woman must approach the team of arbitrators and ask them to advise and council her husband and induce him to observe justice and fairness, and to perform his duties. If they are successful, she continues her life with him and if he does not see the light and amend his ways, she must advance her complaint to a canonical Islamic judge or family court.

The judge summons the offending husband and demands that he refrain from oppression and abuse and that he perform his duties. If he does not accept, he is obligated to divorce her. If he refuses to do so, the judge himself divorces them and forcefully takes the wife’s rights from her husband.

The problem is whether the individual in question would actually be naive enough to agree to the offence. As such an offence would be incriminating.

Hey buddy, stop being oppressive! YES SIR!! affirmative!. I must change course! :hahaha:

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As salaamun aleikum,

Can someone please explain to me the reason for why the abused wife would need to give up her mahr to the abusive husband? Especially if she was a virgin at marriage?

What am i missing here?

I dont get it...

W/s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, shia farm girl said:

Can someone please explain to me the reason for why the abused wife would need to give up her mahr to the abusive husband? Especially if she was a virgin at marriage?

This would be in the case of her not liking her husband, not necessarily a flaw in his behavior with her. Therefore she would refund the mahr, this way marriages are not abused to where they become methods of taking a man's mahr, divorcing and rinse-repeat. Think of it collectively not individually, as for such particular cases the judge may rule for her to keep the mahr. Allah knows best. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum,

Can someone please explain to me the reason for why the abused wife would need to give up her mahr to the abusive husband? Especially if she was a virgin at marriage?

What am i missing here?

I dont get it...

W/s

I’ll tell you how it happens.

A woman wants a divorce and the man doesnt. She’ll give up her right so the man tells her “okay I’ll give you a divorce”. 
I’ve heard situations where a womans family pay the man so he accepts divorce.

Let me say these men are usually the “religious” men, not non-religious. Because religious people always look for loopholes in religion even if it was unethical and immoral.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

This would be in the case of her not liking her husband, not necessarily a flaw in his behavior with her. Therefore she would refund the mahr, this way marriages are not abused to where they become methods of taking a man's mahr, divorcing and rinse-repeat. Think of it collectively not individually, as for such particular cases the judge may rule for her to keep the mahr. Allah knows best. 

Oh you innocent boy. You’re very far from society. Painting all perfect. Lovely.

 

 

Get realistic. Religious society aint close to perfect. And courts that follow certain scholars do that oppressing woman not for the reasons you states.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, BowTie said:

Oh you innocent boy. You’re very far from society. Painting all perfect. Lovely.

 

 

Get realistic. Religious society aint close to perfect. And courts that follow certain scholars do that oppressing woman not for the reasons you states

If we look at the divorce statistics, in the overwhelming number of divorces - as in there is the figures are so slanted that women don't even bring them up - women do seem to divorce a hell of a lot, make it too easy on them and they would destroy more families than they do already.

Obviously it is sad in the minority of cases where the guy is a real low life, but perhaps for the greater good they don't make it too easy for the women. 

As  Spock said "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BowTie said:

Oh you innocent boy. You’re very far from society. Painting all perfect. Lovely.

 

 

Get realistic. Religious society aint close to perfect. And courts that follow certain scholars do that oppressing woman not for the reasons you states.

Religious laws are perfect and can lead to a utopian and just society if implemented perfectly, all we can do is strive towards that perfection through practicing perfect laws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Religious laws are perfect and can lead to a utopian and just society if implemented perfectly, all we can do is strive towards that perfection through practicing perfect laws.

Religion is perfect. Human interpretations of the laws of the Religion are not. 

But this is what we have to work with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

If we look at the divorce statistics, in the overwhelming number of divorces - as in there is the figures are so slanted that women don't even bring them up - women do seem to divorce a hell of a lot, make it too easy on them and they would destroy more families than they do already.

Obviously it is sad in the minority of cases where the guy is a real low life, but perhaps for the greater good they don't make it too easy for the women. 

As  Spock said "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” 

And how many women do you think are stuck in horrific marriages because due to social/family pressures, or necessity, she isn’t able to leave? Or she simply puts up with it because she doesn’t want to ‘destroy the family’ (which no doubt is a noble sentiment, but not at any cost). This isn’t going to show up in your statistics.

I’m not sure which statistics you are referring to, or whether it is in the East or the West, but it’s fairly logical that women would seek divorce more than men. They are more likely to be on the wrong end of an abusive relationship! Now, that’s not to say that there aren’t women who divorce for ridiculous reasons, and I’m certainly not in favour of making divorce easy (although let’s reflect on how easy it is for the man), but there need to be a balance. In some communities, divorce is virtually impossible for the woman, and at the very least she may need to wait years to achieve one, by which time her prospects of remarriage will have been damaged.

So let’s not pretend there aren’t major issues here. And it’s not addressing these issues that sends women right into the arms of the feminists, which then really does lead to the destruction of families.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

And how many women do you think are stuck in horrific marriages because due to social/family pressures, or necessity, she isn’t able to leave? Or she simply puts up with it because she doesn’t want to ‘destroy the family’ (which no doubt is a noble sentiment, but not at any cost). This isn’t going to show up in your statistics.

I’m not sure which statistics you are referring to, or whether it is in the East or the West, but it’s fairly logical that women would seek divorce more than men. They are more likely to be on the wrong end of an abusive relationship! Now, that’s not to say that there aren’t women who divorce for ridiculous reasons, and I’m certainly not in favour of making divorce easy (although let’s reflect on how easy it is for the man), but there need to be a balance. In some communities, divorce is virtually impossible for the woman, and at the very least she may need to wait years to achieve one, by which time her prospects of remarriage will have been damaged.

So let’s not pretend there aren’t major issues here. And it’s not addressing these issues that sends women right into the arms of the feminists, which then really does lead to the destruction of families.

Let's not get into anecdotal evidences for who is right and who is wrong or what the causes of divorce are. I was basing what I said on the statistics in the UK and America (in neither of those countries is it claimed that the primary reason women asked for divorce was because of abuse) however I had a quitck read of a study conducted in Pakistan, and at first glance the findings don't reflect what you are claiming. 

 As far as the results of this research study are concerned we came to know 9.66 % respondents were of the view that financial problems, 14.83% blamed unemployment, 5.62% pointed out lack of trust, 6. 74% said higher education, 5.17% informed religious conflict, and 5.62 said misunderstanding were the major reasons of their respective divorces

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329032859_Divorce_Status_and_Its_Major_Reasons_in_Pakistan

Obviously these are just people's opinions rather than official statistics but they still hold more weight than random claims made on the internet.

Lebanon and Morocco have very high divorce rates, perhaps more official info is available, however I doubt that it will show that is mainly due to some kind of abuse.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Let's not get into anecdotal evidences for who is right and who is wrong or what the causes of divorce are. I was basing what I said on the statistics in the UK and America (in neither of those countries is it claimed that the primary reason women asked for divorce in those countries was because of abuse) however I had a quitck read of a study conducted in Pakistan, and at first glance the findings don't reflect at you are claiming.

The Pakistani ‘study’ you are citing is a joke. Just read through it and you’ll see that for yourself. I’d actually give more credence to ‘random claims on the internet’.

Read this and tell me if you think it’s a good idea to make marriage unnecessarily difficult for women:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_Pakistan

You can easily find similar statistics for most Muslims countries.

I’m not going to argue with you that there may be many women in the West divorcing their husbands for what we might consider ridiculous reasons. But that isn’t usually the case in the East, or among Muslims in the West. The question is if we are trying to avoid that happening among Muslims, what’s the better approach, to give women their full rights in the Islam and implement those laws in good faith, without bias towards men, or to keep them in unhappy or abusive marriages at all costs? Nobody is saying we should make some kind of feminist reform of Islamic divorce laws, but by making things harder than Islam demands women are being oppressed, and that will lead to feminism gaining more ground among Muslims.

I’m sorry, but coming out with statements like ‘destroy more marriages than they already do’ is completely beneath you. What kind of message do you think that sends out to women? Do you really think, given the social stigma attached to divorcees in Muslim communities, that Muslim women are going to want to get divorced for stupid reasons? Especially if they have kids, remarriage is extremely difficult. This isn’t so much of an issue for a non-Muslim Westerner, because it’s more much commonplace and there are less hang ups about marrying a non-virgin.

Sometimes in life we can be so focused on fighting against one evil that we become unbalanced in our approach and end up supporting the opposite evil. As Muslims, we need to remain balanced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

If we look at the divorce statistics, in the overwhelming number of divorces - as in there is the figures are so slanted that women don't even bring them up - women do seem to divorce a hell of a lot, make it too easy on them and they would destroy more families than they do already.

Obviously it is sad in the minority of cases where the guy is a real low life, but perhaps for the greater good they don't make it too easy for the women. 

As  Spock said "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” 

1. May you please share with us a graph of those statistics you have hidden some where?

2. Men expect to marry a woman to be like Sayeda Fatima alZahraa, but they dont treat her like Sayeda Fatima alZahraa. 

3. No woman will ask for a divorce if she lives in a sane household.

9 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Religious laws are perfect and can lead to a utopian and just society if implemented perfectly, all we can do is strive towards that perfection through practicing perfect laws.

What perfect laws? The laws today are manmade since they’re interpreted, and if they were divine laws, there wouldnt be different thoughts within scholars.

Second, even if the laws were perfect, Shia Islamic courts are the most corrupt courts world wide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, BowTie said:

What perfect laws? The laws today are manmade since they’re interpreted, and if they were divine laws, there wouldnt be different thoughts within scholars.

Second, even if the laws were perfect, Shia Islamic courts are the most corrupt courts world wide.

The laws of Allah if implemented perfectly.

Okay, and? They are corrupt because they have deviated from what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has ordained.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

As far as the results of this research study are concerned we came to know 9.66 % respondents were of the view that financial problems, 14.83% blamed unemployment, 5.62% pointed out lack of trust, 6. 74% said higher education, 5.17% informed religious conflict, and 5.62 said misunderstanding were the major reasons of their respective divorces

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329032859_Divorce_Status_and_Its_Major_Reasons_in_Pakista

This study??? This study which interviewed 130 men and 70 women is skewed right from the start. This study shows illiteracy as the leading cause and the people apparently weren't even asked about physical abuse.It's not even listed there. Just the fact that this study says illiteracy is the leading cause of divorce tells us what a joke it is because 50 years back illiteracy was higher while divorce rate was significantly lower! 

 

12 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

- women do seem to divorce a hell of a lot, make it too easy on them and they would destroy more families than they do already.

Women do initiate more divorces. But the question you have to ask is why does this happen when in the 'islamic world' divorce means financial problems for her and people looking down upon her,being a social outcast. If even then women ask for divorce wouldn't there be a very compelling reason to do so? 

In my case and from a dozen or so other woman I knew who got divorced, all of us doctors, married to educated men there were two main reasons 1. Physical violence and by that I don't mean just a slap or something even though that is just as unacceptable, but hitting that went on for years and involved acts like breaking bones and strangulation and 2. Coupled with the above failure to take care of their wife children in terms of fulfilling their basic needs like housing and food etc, even though they could afford it.

No talking about the west but in East their is definitely abuse of power by men which in lots of cases leaves women with no option than to walk out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The laws of Allah if implemented perfectly.

Okay, and? They are corrupt because they have deviated from what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has ordained.

they arent implemented close to perfect.

case closed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, BowTie said:

they arent implemented close to perfect.

case closed

I am answering the question in theory :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/14/2020 at 11:13 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

The Pakistani ‘study’ you are citing is a joke. Just read through it and you’ll see that for yourself. I’d actually give more credence to ‘random claims on the internet’.

Read this and tell me if you think it’s a good idea to make marriage unnecessarily difficult for women:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_Pakistan

You can easily find similar statistics for most Muslims countries.

I’m not going to argue with you that there may be many women in the West divorcing their husbands for what we might consider ridiculous reasons. But that isn’t usually the case in the East, or among Muslims in the West. The question is if we are trying to avoid that happening among Muslims, what’s the better approach, to give women their full rights in the Islam and implement those laws in good faith, without bias towards men, or to keep them in unhappy or abusive marriages at all costs? Nobody is saying we should make some kind of feminist reform of Islamic divorce laws, but by making things harder than Islam demands women are being oppressed, and that will lead to feminism gaining more ground among Muslims.

I’m sorry, but coming out with statements like ‘destroy more marriages than they already do’ is completely beneath you. What kind of message do you think that sends out to women? Do you really think, given the social stigma attached to divorcees in Muslim communities, that Muslim women are going to want to get divorced for stupid reasons? Especially if they have kids, remarriage is extremely difficult. This isn’t so much of an issue for a non-Muslim Westerner, because it’s more much commonplace and there are less hang ups about marrying a non-virgin.

Sometimes in life we can be so focused on fighting against one evil that we become unbalanced in our approach and end up supporting the opposite evil. As Muslims, we need to remain balanced.

The debate is about the reason for divorce, so even if we accept this Wikipedia article (which even states that real statistics are hard to come by) - domestic violence on the scale claimed would indicate that it is an acceptable part of Pakistani culture, so people wouldn't necessarily see it as a reason to get divorced.

I don't support making divorce overly difficult, I just don't support making it as easy as it is for women in countries like the UK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...