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Ejaz

Do Shiite scholars agree with Kalām Cosmological Argument or the Big Bang?

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:salam:
I heard a lecture from Dr Farrakhan’s Sekaleshfar (I’ll post if I find it) where he says that we don’t accept the Big Bang. He said that there is no such thing as nothing (it doesn’t exist) and that God didn’t create the universe from no-thing, rather all of creation is a manifestation of God. Apologies if I made any misrepresentations.

I’m interested to know your perspectives. Didn’t the ‘aimmah / anbiya say the universe was not eternal (which seems to be implied by the above) but rather it was created?
 

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1 hour ago, Ejaz said:

:salam:
I heard a lecture from Dr Farrakhan’s Sekaleshfar (I’ll post if I find it) where he says that we don’t accept the Big Bang. He said that there is no such thing as nothing (it doesn’t exist) and that God didn’t create the universe from no-thing, rather all of creation is a manifestation of God. Apologies if I made any misrepresentations.

I’m interested to know your perspectives. Didn’t the ‘aimmah / anbiya say the universe was not eternal (which seems to be implied by the above) but rather it was created?
 

Everybody (Sunnis and Shias, and all scholars worth their salt) agree, including Dr. Sekalashfar, that the universe is a creation and is therefore "created".

Nobody disagrees that the universe was created from nothing, but it is in how one understands this statement.  "Nothingness" is not a material that God would create something from it.   "Nothingness" is not a material cause.  To say that "God creates out of nothing" is to say that God doesn't create from something else, like how, if we were to create a chair, we would create a chair from wood (which is a thing).  So, if the creation doesn't come from some thing, this doesn't mean it comes from nothingness, but rather this means that comes from God Himself (this is what it means from the creation to be a manifestation of God).

We come back to the analogies we have been mentioning over and over again.  The creation in relation to God is not like that of a building in relation to the builder.  The creation in relation to God is like dream images in relation to the Dreamer.  The dream images appear only by the Dreamer, in the Dreamer, with Dreamer, and through the Dreamer.   The creation is God's Dream (as many Mystics have poetically described, such as Ibn Arabi (may God sanctify his spirit))             

Edited by eThErEaL

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@eThErEaL

Thanks for your response brother.

Since the universe is created, can we apply the below Qur'anic argument of creation to the Universe?

Quote

Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain

Can we say "or did the universe come about from nothing (impossible), or did it create itself (impossible) or did it get created from something created (infinite regress -- impossible!)"

Edited by Ejaz

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42 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Can we say "or did the universe come about from nothing (impossible), or did it create itself (impossible) or did it get created from something created (infinite regress -- impossible!)"

You are probably right, we cannot say any of those. 

But one could say that because matter and energy are eternal, never ceasing to be one or the other, they cannot have a cause, but must always have had 'Being'. In other words, the existence of matter and energy is the 'default' of existence.
'Something' must always have existed, because to say 'nothingness once existed' is a contradiction". 

The Big Bang is no more a "beginning" than any arbitrary selected point on any line is a "beginning." It is an event, a process that happened to existing energy/matter. A change, a variation on existing materials; it is the point where the universe became as it is now, not the point where the universe began.
ws

*

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12 hours ago, Ejaz said:

@eThErEaL

Thanks for your response brother.

Since the universe is created, can we apply the below Qur'anic argument of creation to the Universe?

Can we say "or did the universe come about from nothing (impossible), or did it create itself (impossible) or did it get created from something created (infinite regress -- impossible!)"

Basically these questions are more introspective (I am sorry, interrogative!!!), in a nut shell, it is basically saying:  

“JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?? HUH?”

We act and behave as if there is no Fundamental Reality to our existence, as if there is nothing beyond us. Hence the question: “did we (as individuals, persons or things) create ourselves out of nothing?”
Not only do we act and behave as if there is nothing beyond us but we also act and behave as if we are all there is, or as if we are the Fundamental Reality ourselves.    Hence the question:, “Or did you create yourselves?”.

Not only do we delude ourselves into feeling that:

a) nothing is beyond ourselves, 

b) we are the ultimate

but also we act and behave as if

A c) we as individuals and persons are the Source and Fundamental Reality upon which everything else depends.  hence the question: “Or did you create the Heavens and the Earth”?

by the way the verses continue to interrogate.  It gets very interesting:

And we act and behave as if we KNOW IT ALL (like we know the source of our provision or that we have the source of God’s provision in ourselves) when in fact we clearly do not!  We actually think and behave as if we are self-sufficient!  When in fact we can’t control ANYTHING (and yet we so often feel like we we are in control).  Hence the Quran says: “or do they have the depositories of their Lord or do they think they are in control?”.

The verses continue to interrogate us:

”wait a minute, so on top of all this, you think you have a free pass to Heaven”?  You actually think you are sef-entitled to go to Heaven?”  Hence: “or do they have a stairway to Heaven?”  How many Muslims believe they are going to be saved by merely professing they are “Muslim”?  
 

The interrogation keep going on and on.  it is like God dissing us and putting us in our place.  

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Basically these questions are more introspective (I am sorry, interrogative!!!), in a nut shell, it is basically saying:  

“JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?? HUH?”  AND JUST HOW RIDICULOUS CAN YOU BE!!”

We act and behave as if there is no Fundamental Reality to our existence, as if there is nothing beyond us. Hence the question: “did we (as individuals, persons or things) create ourselves out of nothing?”
Not only do we act and behave as if there is nothing beyond us but we also act and behave as if we are all there is, or as if we are the Fundamental Reality ourselves.    Hence the question:, “Or did you create yourselves?”.

Not only do we delude ourselves into feeling that:

a) nothing is beyond ourselves, 

b) we are the ultimate

but also we act and behave as if

A c) we as individuals and persons are the Source and Fundamental Reality upon which everything else depends.  hence the question: “Or did you create the Heavens and the Earth”?

by the way the verses continue to interrogate.  It gets very interesting:

And we act and behave as if we KNOW IT ALL (like we know the source of our provision or that we have the source of God’s provision in ourselves) when in fact we clearly do not!  We actually think and behave as if we are self-sufficient!  When in fact we can’t control ANYTHING (and yet we so often feel like we we are in control).  Hence the Quran says: “or do they have the depositories of their Lord or do they think they are in control?”.

The verses continue to interrogate us:

”wait a minute, so on top of all this, you think you have a free pass to Heaven”?  You actually think you are sef-entitled to go to Heaven?”  Hence: “or do they have a stairway to Heaven?”  How many Muslims believe they are going to be saved by merely professing they are “Muslim”?  
 

The interrogations/ dissing keep on going.  it is like God putting us in our place.  


 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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5 hours ago, Quisant said:

You are probably right, we cannot say any of those. 

But one could say that because matter and energy are eternal, never ceasing to be one or the other, they cannot have a cause, but must always have had 'Being'. In other words, the existence of matter and energy is the 'default' of existence.
'Something' must always have existed, because to say 'nothingness once existed' is a contradiction". 

The Big Bang is no more a "beginning" than any arbitrary selected point on any line is a "beginning." It is an event, a process that happened to existing energy/matter. A change, a variation on existing materials; it is the point where the universe became as it is now, not the point where the universe began.
ws

*

Exactly.  Arbitrary.  It doesn’t exclude the possibility of infinite Big Bangs (multiverses).  

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Exactly.  Arbitrary.  It doesn’t exclude the possibility of infinite Big Bangs (multiverses).  

but this energy had to begin, unless you want the problem of infinite regression.

 

When the quran says it did not come from nothing, what is meant is that nothing unlike Allah(stw) has no creative power, Allah(stw) can bring something into existance when it did not exist before, ie matter, ie energy, ie bigbang, etc.

Edited by HusseinAbbas

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Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘Tameem Bin Abdullah Bin Tameem al Qarshy narrated to us, from his father, from Ahmad Bin Ali Al Ansary, from Abu Al Salt Abdul Salaam Bin Salih Al Harwy who said, 

‘Al-Mamoun (L.a) asked Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (عليه السلام) about the Words of Allah عزّ وجلّ Mighty and 
Majestic: 


And He is the One Who Created the skies and the earth in six days and His Throne was upon the water, in order to Try you, which one of you is better in deeds [11:7].

 

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Surely Allah عزّ وجلّ Blessed and Exalted Created the Throne, and the water, and the Angels before He عزّ وجلّ Created the skies and the earth. And the Angels used to infer by themselves, and by the Throne, and by the water, to Allah عزّ وجلّ Mighty and Majestic.Then He عزّ وجلّ Made His Throne to be upon the water, in order to manifest His Power by that to the Angels, so that they would come to know that He عزّ وجلّ has Power over everything. Then He عزّ وجلّ Raised the Throne by His Power and Transferred it, so He عزّ وجلّ Made it to be above the seventh sky.

 

And He Created the skies and the earth in six days [11:7],

 

and He عزّ وجلّ Took Control upon 
His Throne. And He عزّ وجلّ has all the Power to Create it in the blink of an eye, but the Mighty and Majestic Created it in six days, in order to Manifest to the Angels what He عزّ وجلّ Created from it, a thing after a thing. So they were evidenced by the occurrence of what occurred, to Allah عزّ وجلّ the Exalted, time and again.

 

And Allah عزّ وجلّ did not Create the Throne for any need of His, because He عزّ وجلّ is above any need of the Throne, and from all of what He عزّ وجلّ Created. He عزّ وجلّ cannot be described to be upon the Throne, because He عزّ وجلّ has no physical form. Elevated is Allah عزّ وجلّ from the attributes of His creatures, Higher and Greater.

 

And as for His Words:


in order to Try you, which one of you is better in deeds [11:7], 


so He عزّ وجلّ, the Mighty and Majestic Created His creatures in order to Test them by the effort of being obedient to Him, and worship of Him, not upon the way of the examination and the experience, because He عزّ وجلّ never ceased to be All-Knowing of everything’. 


So Al-Mamoun (L.a) said,

 ‘You (عليه السلام) have relieved me–O Abu Al-Hassan (عليه السلام)–may Allah عزّ وجلّ Relieve you'.

Ref-


Uyoun Akhbar Al Riza (عليه السلام)


Vol. 1  134/33.

 

Then Allah Might and Majestic said:


O My angles! O Residents of My Heavens, verily, I have not created the erected Sky, the stretched earth, the illuminated moon, the bright sun, the rotating planets, the flowing seas and the sailing ships, except for the love of these Five underneath the cloak"

 

Extract from Hadeeth e Kisa.

Edited by randomly curious

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in the book Misbah Al Anwaar, 


(It has been narrated) from Anas Bin Malik who said,

 

‘We prayed the Dawn Salat with 
Rasool-Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in one of the days, then he turned towards us with a benevolent face. So I said,

 

‘O Rasool-Allah(saww)! I see if you'could interpret for us the Words of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic

 

so they are those upon whom Allah has Bestowed Favours from the Prophets and the Truthful and the Martyrs and the Righteous; and a goodly company are they! [4:69].

 


So he (saww) said: ‘As for the Prophets, so it is myself, and as for the Truthful, so it is my brother Ali Bin Abu Talib (عليه السلام) and as for the Martyrs, so it is my uncle Hamza (عليه السلام), and as for the Righteous, so it is my daughter (Syeda) Fatima (عليه السلام) and her sons Al-Hassan (عليه السلام) and Al-Husayn (عليه السلام)’.

 

 

He (Anas Bin Malik) said, ‘Al-Abbas was present, so he leapt up and seated himself in front of Rasool-Allah (saww) and said: ‘Are we not, I and you, and Ali (asws), and (Syeda) Fatima (asws), and Al-Hassan (asws), and Al-Husayn(asws) from one spring (source)?’

 

 

He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: ‘And how is that, O uncle?’ Al-Abbas said, ‘Because you introduced Ali(asws), and (Syeda) Fatima(asws), and Al-Hassan (asws), and Al-Hassan(asws) apart from us

 

So the Prophet (saww) smiled and said:

 

‘As for your words, O uncle, ‘Are we (all) not from one source, so you have spoken the truth, but, O uncle! Surely, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) the Exalted Created me (saww), and Ali(asws), and (Syeda) Fatima (asws), and Al-Hassan
(asws), and Al-Husayn (asws) before Allah (عزّ وجلّ) the Exalted Created Adam (عليه السلام), when there was no sky having been constructed, nor the earth laid out, nor darkness nor light, nor Garden nor Fire, nor a sun, nor a moon’.

 

Al-Abbas said, ‘And how was the beginning of their (asws) creation, O Rasool-Allah (saww)?’

 

 

He (saww) said: ‘O uncle! When Allah (عزّ وجلّ) the Exalted Intended to Create us(asws), He (عزّ وجلّ) Spoke a Word and Created Light from it. Then He (عزّ وجلّ) Spoke a Word, so He (عزّ وجلّ) Created a Spirit from it. So the Light blended with the Spirit to Create me (saww), and my brotherasws Ali(asws), and (Syeda) Fatima (asws), and Al-Hassan(asws), and Al-Husayn(asws).

 

So we (asws) Glorified Him (عزّ وجلّ) when there was no Glorification, and Extolled Hisazwj Holiness 
where there was no Extollation. So when He (عزّ وجلّ) Wanted to Establish His Work, Heazwj Split 
my Light and Created the Light of the Throne from it. And so, the Light of the Throne is from mysaww Light, and my Light is from the Light of Allah (azwj), and my Light is higher than the Light of the Throne.

 

Then He (عزّ وجلّ) Split the Light of my brother Ali Bin Abu Talib (asws), and from it were Created the Angels. So, the Light of the Angels is from the Light of Ali(asws), and the Light of Ali(asws) is from the Light of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), and Ali (عليه السلام) higher than the Angels’.

 

Then He (عزّ وجلّ) Split the Light of my daughter (Syeda) Fatima (asws), and from it was Created 
the Light of the skies and the earth. So, the skies and the earth are from the Light of my daughter (Syeda) Fatima (asws), and the Light of my daughter (Syeda) Fatima (asws) from the Light of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic, and my daughter (Syeda) Fatima(asws) is 
higher than the skies and the earth.

 

Then He(عزّ وجلّ) Split the Light of my son Al-Hassan(asws), and Created from it the Light of the sun and the moon. So the Light of the sun and the moon is from the Light of Al-Hassan(asws), and the Light of my son Al-Hassan (asws) is from the Light of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), and Al-Hassan(asws) is higher than the sun and the moon.

 

Then He (عزّ وجلّ) Split the Light of my son Al-Husayn (asws), and from it were Created the Paradise, and the Maiden Houries. So the Light of the Paradise and the Houries is from the Light of my son Al-Husayn(asws), and the Light of my son Al-Husayn (asws) is from 
the Light of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), and my son Al-Husayn (asws) is higher than the Paradise and the Maiden Houries’.

 

Then Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Commanded the darkness that it should pass with the cloud of darkness, so it 
darkened the skies upon the Angels. The Angels erupted with the sound of the Glorification 
and the Extollation, and said: ‘Our Allah (عزّ وجلّ) nd our Master (عزّ وجلّ)! Since You Created us and 
introduced us to these resemblances we have not seen misery. Therefore, for the sake of 
these resemblances, Remove this darkness from us!’

 

So Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Extracted lanterns from the Light of my daughter (Syeda) Fatima (asws), and 
attached these in the middle of the Throne. So the skies and the earth bloomed, then shone with her Light. Thus, it is due to that, she has been called ‘Al-Zahra’ (asws) (The illuminated).

 

So the Angels said: ‘Our Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and our Master! From whom is this bright Light by which the skies and the earth have shone?’ So Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Revealed unto them

 

“This is the Light initiated from My Majestic of My community, (Syeda) Fatima (asws) the daughter of 
My Beloved, and the wife of My Guardian and the brother of My Prophet and the father of My Proofs (asws) over My servants. Be witnesses, O My Angels!

 

I (عزّ وجلّ) have Made the Rewards of your Glorifications and your Extollations for this lady and her Shiah and those that love her up to the Day of Judgement”.

 

So when Al-Abbas heard that from Rasool-Allah (saww), he leapt up standing and kissed Ali (asws)
between the eyes, and said, ‘By Allah (عزّ وجلّ)! You – O Ali (asws) – are the Significant Proof (Al-Hujjah) for the one who believes in Allah (عزّ وجلّ) the Exalted, and the Last Day’.

 

ref-

 

مصباحِاألنوار: :66 « خمطوط«.

Edited by Mahdavist
Typo

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Exactly.  Arbitrary.  It doesn’t exclude the possibility of infinite Big Bangs (multiverses).  

But isn’t an actual differentiated infinite is impossible, only God can be infinite.

And how can the universe begin without the First Cause? 

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1 hour ago, Ejaz said:

But isn’t an actual differentiated infinite is impossible, only God can be infinite.

And how can the universe begin without the First Cause? 

everything is inside the chair. if compared to the chair, its like a ring thrown in a desert. and the chair is inside the throne. and the chair compared to the throne is like a ring thrown in a desert.

 

check this out.

 

 

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