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In the Name of God بسم الله

"Twelve" in Quran

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

we have Imams that are leading people to Paradise that these Imams appointed by Allah but there is another group of Imams that are leading people  to hell that thedses Imams are not divinely appointed .

In which of these two categories does the Imamate described in 25:74 fall?

Also, is Khomeini a divinely appointed Imam or a non-divinely appointed Imam?

Edited by Cherub786
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10 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

In which of these two categories does the Imamate described in 25:74 fall?

Also, is Khomeini a divinely appointed Imam or a non-divinely appointed Imam?

it's a title for him that people of Iran gave to him like sunnis called founders of their madhab as Imam like Hanafis call Abu Hanifah as Imam Abu Hanifah so Abu Hanifah was a divinly appointed Imam or a non-divinely appointed Imam?:grin:

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On 8/14/2020 at 1:25 PM, Cherub786 said:

What is the proof that every Imam must be chosen by Allah?

Read your website, you have written this:

Quote

مجدد نبی علیہ السلام کا خلیفہ، وصی، وارث، وزیر، نائب، اور وکیل ہوتا ہے۔ اس کے علاوہ، مجدد مامور من اللہ ہے، اور لاظماً صاحب الہام و کشف بھی ہے۔ 

O mujaddid, O waliullah, you are just testing our patience!!

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

25:74 clearly refutes your argument and establishes the fact that any righteous person can become an Imam through prayer. The possibility is definitely there.

 

17 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

This is not a refutation, it is actually an admission. My argument is that not all Imams are necessarily divinely appointed, and that someone can become an Imam through prayer and righteousness. You just acknowledged that this is true.

I have observed your statements as contradictory (ie in Blue part and Red part).

There are many verses of Quran mentioning  the imams /prophets/ caliphs / leaders/ chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

You are failed so far to provide a single example by verse of quran  mentioning (by name) like of good imams chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  if a person was chosen as imam/.caliph/ leader / prophet by the people (to confirm your thought imam  just by making prayers).

You just have tactic of marking as Disagreed emoji without providing the necessary evidences mentioned to confirm your statements.

.........Continued

Edited by Muslim2010
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:bismillah:

Surah Al-Hajj, Verse 78:
وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving as is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!
(English - Shakir)

You cannot run away from these clear verses. We have discussed it earlier but I think we some day need to discuss it in detail. 

You believe that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never nominated anyone as his caliph/successor. Well do you believe Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever disobeyed God? If not, then see from the very beginning it was the divine plan than Prophet should "nominate" his successor.

Surah Al-Inshirah, Verse 7:
فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانصَبْ

So when you are free, nominate.
(English - Shakir)

See how the command is there even in the Makkan surah. Quran as well as Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has repeatedly informed us about the chosen ones. 33:33, 3:61, 5:55, 4:59 are few examples of where these chosen ones have been mentioned as Tahireen, Sadiqeen, Waliullah, Ulil Amr. Each of these takes us to 12 Imams.

Then you have the hadith of ghadeer, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) finally nominated Ali as "mowla" of all believers after finishing with the last hajj.

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) delivered the divine message and acted upon it by nominating Ali (عليه السلام) as "mowla" which only means master/guardian here. So instead of you asking us the proof, we should ask you about the legitimacy of Abu Bakr who was not even nominated, neither he belongs to the progeny of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), neither he was from Tahireen, neither from Sadiqeen etc. 

Now there exist a hadith of 12 caliphs in Islamic texts:

Quote

Imam Muslim on Sahih Muslim wrote: Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: "This religion (Islam) will remain standing until twelve caliphs, which all of them is from Quraysh, rule over you." (Sahih Muslim)

Imam Abu Dawud on Shahih Abi Dawud wrote: Masyruq said: We were sitting with Abdullah bin Mas'ud to learn the Qur'an from him. Someone asked him: Did you ask the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) how many caliphs will rule this Ummah (Community)? Ibnu Mas'ud answered: Of course we asked this thing from Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and he answered: "Twelve, like the amount of the leaders of Banu Isra'il." (Shahih Al-Bukhari)

Irrespective of its interpretation & differences between Muslims, isn't it not sufficient that you cannot get rid of the figure of 12 in any case. 

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On 8/14/2020 at 1:25 AM, Cherub786 said:

But I shall now prove from the Quran that the rank of Imamate is not only wahbi it may be kasbi also:

وَٱلَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا هَبْ لَنَا مِنْ أَزْوَٰجِنَا وَذُرِّيَّـٰتِنَا قُرَّةَ أَعْيُنٍ وَٱجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا

And those who say, "Our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an Imam for the righteous." (25:74)

... وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا ﴿٧٤﴾

and make us leaders of those who have Taqwa.

Ibn Abbas, Al-Hasan, As-Suddi, Qatadah and Rabi` bin Anas said: "Leaders who would be taken as examples in good.''

Others said: "Guides who would call others to goodness.''

(Tafsser Ibne Kaseer)

In the light of verses of Quran mentioning the examples of good Imams they are only chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance of the people.

Is there hadith for any one who has been referred as “Imam of Mutaqeen”?

Ali as has been referred as Imam ul Mutaqeen:

قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَیْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " انْتَهَیْتُ لَیْلَةَ أُسْرِیَ بِی إِلَى السِّدْرَةِ الْمُنْتَهَى ، فَأُوحِیَ إِلَیَّ فِی عَلِیٍّ بِثَلاثٍ : أَنَّهُ إِمَامُ الْمُتَّقِینَ ، وَسَیِّدُ الْمُسْلِمِینَ ، وَقَائِدُ الْغُرِّ الْمُحَجَّلِینَ إِلَى جَنَّاتِ النَّعِیمِ "

The Messenger of God, peace and blessings of God be upon him, said: One night I was taken to heaven, I reached the final sky (Sidra tul Munteha), three things were revealed to me about Ali:

Ali is the leader of the pious (Imam ul Mutaqeen), the prince of believers, And the leader of the resplendent.

https://www.cloob.com/result/امام_المتقین

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali ((عليه السلام)) is the Imam of the pious, the prince of believers, and the leader of the resplendent.” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/129; Kenz Al-Omal, 6/153.

 

17 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Hence, Imamate is of two kinds: 1. wahbi and 2. kasbi

25:74 is the proof text for kasbi Imamate

I like to see the verse of Quran mentioning the example (preferably by name) of a person as Imam who has been appointed by the people and not by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to confirm your statement for kasbi imamate, 

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17 hours ago, Cool said:

Read your website, you have written this:

O mujaddid, O waliullah, you are just testing our patience!!

I am not a Mujaddid or Waliullah, nor have I ever claimed to be one

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18 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's a title for him that people of Iran gave to him like sunnis called founders of their madhab as Imam like Hanafis call Abu Hanifah as Imam Abu Hanifah so Abu Hanifah was a divinly appointed Imam or a non-divinely appointed Imam?:grin:

So Khomeini is a non divinely appointed Imam, like Imam Abu Hanifah رحمة الله عليه

Thanks for proving my argument, that there are two kinds of Imams 1. divinely appointed and 2. not divinely appointed

What are we arguing about, again?

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17 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

I have observed your statements as contradictory (ie in Blue part and Red part).

There are many verses of Quran mentioning  the imams /prophets/ caliphs / leaders/ chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

You are failed so far to provide a single example by verse of quran  mentioning (by name) like of good imams chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  if a person was chosen as imam/.caliph/ leader / prophet by the people (to confirm your thought imam  just by making prayers).

You just have tactic of marking as Disagreed emoji without providing the necessary evidences mentioned to confirm your statements.

.........Continued

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time deciphering what you are trying to say here. Your thoughts are disorganized and confused, and I'm not able to make heads or tails of it.

Perhaps English is your second language. If you are an Urdu speaker, I recommend you express your question to me in Urdu. This sentence "You are failed so far to provide a single example by verse of quran  mentioning (by name) like of good imams chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  if a person was chosen as imam/.caliph/ leader / prophet by the people (to confirm your thought imam  just by making prayers)." is so confused, has so many grammatical and syntax errors, that I simply cannot understand what you are trying to say.

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16 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

I like to see the verse of Quran mentioning the example (preferably by name) of a person as Imam who has been appointed by the people and not by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to confirm your statement for kasbi imamate, 

Kasbi Imamate does not mean someone becomes an Imam simply because people have appointed him. Kasbi Imamate refers to someone who has become worthy of the ascription Imam through prayer and piety, as per 25:74, and therefore, Allah grants him his prayer to become an Imam through the agency of people, or even without the people recognizing him as such.

25:74 is the clear and decisive proof for the existence of Kasbi Imamate, particularly in this Ummah. There is simply nothing you can do or say that will negate this fact, which is as clear as daylight, even clearer.

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16 hours ago, Cool said:

You believe that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never nominated anyone as his caliph/successor. Well do you believe Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever disobeyed God? If not, then see from the very beginning it was the divine plan than Prophet should "nominate" his successor.

Surah Al-Inshirah, Verse 7:
فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانصَبْ

So when you are free, nominate.
(English - Shakir)

The translation you pasted is disputed. Other translations say: "work diligently" (Ahmed Ali), "strive in supplication' (Ahmed Raza Khan), "labor" (Arberry), "remain steadfast" (Asad), "toil" (Daryabadi), "stand up for Allah's worship" (Hilali & Khan), "turn to devotion" (Itani), "strive in devotion" (Maududi), "devote yourself to Allah's worship" (Mubarakpuri), "toil" (Pickthall), "labor (in supplication)" (Qaribullah & Darwish), "then stand up for worship" (Sahih International), "strive hard to worship God" (Sarwar)

Now here I have quoted 13 different English translations of this Verse, and not a single one of them translate Fansab to mean "nominate". That should be sufficient to dismiss your proof.

Furthermore, if we, for the sake of argument, accept that the correct translation is "nominate", what does that mean? How does it follow that "nominate" necessarily means "nominate a successor to succeed you upon your death"?

Therefore, your argument is extremely weak and flimsy, using the most vague and ambiguous proof (if, that is, we accept your translation, which is also a minority translation).

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Kasbi Imamate does not mean someone becomes an Imam simply because people have appointed him. Kasbi Imamate refers to someone who has become worthy of the ascription Imam through prayer and piety

Quote

Non-Shi'a Schools
Most Islamic schools consider imamate necessary, even though there is a disagreement about whether it is a jurisprudential, theological, or rational obligation.

'Asharites regard it obligatory but because they do not believe in rational goodness and evil (al-husn wa l-qubh al-'Aqliyyayn) and any obligation for God, they regard imamate obligatory for people due to hadiths, not rationally obligatory. 'Adud al-Din al-Iji believes that 'Asharites consider appointment of Imam obligatory according to hadiths meaning that existence and appointment of Imam is necessary because God has said so, not because our intellect has concluded it.[24]
Mu'tazilites, Maturidites, Abadiyyas, and a group of Zaydis regarded imamate incumbent upon people. Some Mu'tazilites regarded the necessity of imam rational and some others considered it necessary due to hadiths.[25]

Incompatibility with Khatamiyya
As it was mentioned, imamate is among challenging doctrines which has been the center for many arguments since early Islam. One of the questions mentioned about it is that imamate as explained above and Shi'a believe in is incompatible with Khatamiyyat (the End of Prophethood); since, the person qualified for imamate as Shi'a believe in has no difference with the Prophet (s).[40]

Ayatollah Ja'far Subhani answered this question as below:

"The difference between prophethood and explanation of the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (s) is obvious and does not need much explanation; as prophethood means that the Prophet (s) receives revelation, hears God's word, sees His messenger and either delivers an independent religion or preaches the religion before himself.

But Imam is the keeper of the knowledge of the Prophet (s) in whatever people need without being addressed by revelation, without hearing God's word or seeing the angel carrying the message."[41]

Moreover, some others believe that imamate as defined above is only a result of Shi'a's exaggeration and has not been existed in early authentic Islamic texts and beliefs of the Shi'a in the first centuries.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imamate

 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

In which of these two categories does the Imamate described in 25:74 fall?

Also, is Khomeini a divinely appointed Imam or a non-divinely appointed Imam? he was just a great leader so he was non-divinely appointed Imam but you believe to Kasbi Imamate so according  to your belief  he was a Kasbi Imam.

Quote

Technical Meaning

Theologians have defined imamate in two ways;

Some definitions are general and include prophethood as well; for example, it has been defined as the "general leadership in religious and worldly issues".[9]

The second definitions are those which regard imamate as the succession of the Prophet (s) in religious affairs and consider following imam obligatory.[10]

Given the above mentioned points, it can be said that the definition of imamate as the "leadership of the Islamic society in religious and worldly affairs as the successor of the Prophet (s)" is accepted by all Islamic schools.[11]

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imamate

Quote


and make us a leader to those who guard (against evil)
(lil-muttaqīn
imāman)
:
°at is: “Make us rush toward good and strive for Your mercy, such
that the other
muttaqūn
(those who guard against evil, the Godwary, the self-
restrained) would follow us.” °is would refer to the following instructions of
God:
±erefore hasten to (do) good works
(2:148),
Hasten to forgiveness from
your Lord
(57:21), and:
And the foremost are the foremost; these are they who are
drawn near (to Allah)
(56:10-11). In this prayer, the word
imām
(leader, guide,
model) is mentioned in singular form. °is apparently shows that they want
to be all united in one line, ahead of other
muttaqūn
.
Here are some alternative interpretations offered by the exegetes: (1)
Imām
is used for both singular and plural.
1
(2)
Imām
is the plural of
āmm
, meaning
“one who is aiming and heading [for a destination],” much like
ṣiyām
, which
is the plural of
ṣāʾim
(one who is fasting). °e meaning would then be: “Make
us followers who head toward those who guard against evil.” (3) A recitation
by Ahl al-Bayt reads: “Make for us a leader from those who guard against evil”
(
wa-ijʿal lanā min al-muttaqīna imāman
).

https://almizan.org

“...and make us for the pious ones (their) Imams.”
It must be noted that they do not pray for taking the place of great persons exorbitantly, but they acquire the means and qualifications of greatness and leadership in a way that all deserved attributes of a real leader are included in them and this is a very difficult job with severe conditions.

Certainly it is not forgotten that these verses do not state all the qualities of the believers but they define the specialties of a choice group of them who are at the top and are entitled as ‘the servants of the Beneficent’.

Yes, they are special servants of Allah and as the general mercy of Allah includes all people, the mercy of servants of Allah is, from some aspects, general, too. Their knowledge, speech, thought, power, and writing all function for guiding people to the path of the Truth.

They are paragons and examples of the humane society.

They are counted as examples for pious persons. They are like guiding lights and lamps in deserts and seas, which call those who are lost to them and save them from falling down and sinking.

In many narrations we read that this verse is about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and family of the Prophet (S) and Imams (عليه السلام). Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said:

“The purpose of this verse is us.”38

Without doubt, Imams (عليه السلام) are of the most obvious extensions of this verse, but this does not limit the concept of the verse that other believers can be imams and leaders of others in various degrees.

Some of commentators say that not only asking spiritual and divine leadership is not forbidden, but also it is preferred and good.39

Meanwhile, we must pay attention that though the Qur’anic word ‘Imam’ is singular, sometimes it is used in plural sense. In this verse it is so.

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-12/section-6-repentance-belief-and-good-deeds

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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If all you're going to do is copy and paste lengthy articles from a website, why don't you just give the link and save space for people to discuss and write their own independent thoughts. Copying and pasting from a website reveals lack of intelligence and ability to formulate independent thought.

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On 8/14/2020 at 1:55 PM, Cherub786 said:

What is the proof that every Imam must be chosen by Allah? The verses you quoted are speaking of Prophets. Obviously Prophets are also Imams, and they are chosen by Allah in their capacity of being Prophets.

But I shall now prove from the Quran that the rank of Imamate is not only wahbi it may be kasbi also:

وَٱلَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا هَبْ لَنَا مِنْ أَزْوَٰجِنَا وَذُرِّيَّـٰتِنَا قُرَّةَ أَعْيُنٍ وَٱجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا

And those who say, "Our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an Imam for the righteous." (25:74)

Here Allah is encouraging Believers to pray that they be made into an Imam. Thus it is possible a Believer attains Imamate through prayer and righteousness, and so not every Imam is chosen by Allah.

Question: Do you personally pray to Allah to make you an Imam? Yes or No?

Prayer of the Ibrahim(عليه السلام)

 [And he said], "My Lord, grant me authority and join me with the righteous.26:83

Prayer of Sulaiman(عليه السلام)

He said, "My Lord, forgive me and grant me a kingdom such as will not belong to anyone after me. Indeed, You are the Bestower."38:35

Allah mentioned the qualities and prayers of certain individuals in the quran 25”63-76 so by repeating their words only does not make the any one Imam.

[Shakir 25:63] And the servants of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace.
[
Shakir 25:64] And they who pass the night prostrating themselves before their Lord and standing.
[
Shakir 25:65] And they who say: O our Lord! turn away from us the punishment of hell, surely the punishment thereof is a lasting
[
Shakir 25:66] Surely it is an evil abode and (evil) place to stay.
[
Shakir 25:67] And they who when they spend, are neither extravagant nor parsimonious, and (keep) between these the just mean.
[
Shakir 25:68] And they who do not call upon another god with Allah and do not slay the soul, which Allah has forbidden except in the requirements of justice, and (who) do not commit fornication and he who does this shall find a requital of sin;
[
Shakir 25:69] The punishment shall be doubled to him on the day of resurrection, and he shall abide therein in abasement;
[
Shakir 25:70] Except him who repents and believes and does a good deed; so these are they of whom Allah changes the evil deeds to good ones; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[
Shakir 25:71] And whoever repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a (goodly) turning.
[
Shakir 25:72] And they who do not bear witness to what is false, and when they pass by what is vain,they pass by nobly.
[
Shakir 25:73] And they who, when reminded of the communications of their Lord, do not fall down there at deaf and blind.
[
Shakir 25:74] And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).
[
Shakir 25:75] These shall be rewarded with high places because they were patient, and shall be met therein with greetings and salutations.
[
Shakir 25:76] Abiding therein; goodly the abode and the resting-place.

Who are praying are the Imams already and they seek from Allah to grant them the pious followers

Otherwise by just repeating the words of Sulaiman(عليه السلام)  and Ibrahim(عليه السلام) any one neither get the kingdom nor get the authority like them.

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30 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

If all you're going to do is copy and paste lengthy articles from a website, why don't you just give the link and save space for people to discuss and write their own independent thoughts. Copying and pasting from a website reveals lack of intelligence and ability to formulate independent thought.

:grin: anyway  they are facts that you can't  deny.

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4 minutes ago, elite said:

Allah mentioned the qualities and prayers of certain individuals in the quran 25”63-76 so by repeating their words only does not make the any one Imam.

First Response

25:74 is not quoting the prayer of any specific Prophet or individual

Second Response

Allah Himself is teaching ordinary Muslims to repeat the prayer of 25:74 by mentioning this prayer as one of the virtuous qualities of the Believers. This is evident from the context of the Verse, when read in conjunction with verses preceding and proceeding it. Therefore, review this entire passage then tell me this prayer is not meant to be a prayer of ordinary Believers.

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26 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

This is evident from the context of the Verse,

this is evident from previous & next verses in page that this is prayer of really devoted believers that they don't  commit any sin by their will that in Shia viewpoint  it's best examples are infallible  Imams but in Sunni viewpoint  nobody is infallible so based sunni viewpoint  this prayer  doesn't  apply on any muslim.

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

this is evident from previous & next verses in page that this is prayer of really devoted believers that they don't  commit any sin by their will that in Shia viewpoint  it's best examples are infallible  Imams but in Sunni viewpoint  nobody is infallible so based sunni viewpoint  this prayer  doesn't  apply on any muslim.

So you are admitting that your "infallible Imams" had kasbi Imamate, they prayed to Allah to make them Imams, and Allah made them Imams because of their devotion and prayer?

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Other translations say: "work diligently" (Ahmed Ali), "strive in supplication' (Ahmed Raza Khan), "labor" (Arberry), "remain steadfast" (Asad), "toil" (Daryabadi), "stand up for Allah's worship" (Hilali & Khan), "turn to devotion" (Itani), "strive in devotion" (Maududi), "devote yourself to Allah's worship" (Mubarakpuri), "toil" (Pickthall), "labor (in supplication)" (Qaribullah & Darwish), "then stand up for worship" (Sahih International), "strive hard to worship God" (Sarwar)

One can laugh on all these translations. The only translation that makes sense is "nominate or to fix". You can see here too the word "fa" :)

All of your above quoted translations are manipulated translations just to get rid of "nomination/fixation" of successor. Specially keeping in view the 8th verse.

Quote

وَإِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ فَارْغَبْ {8}

[Shakir 94:8] And make your Lord your exclusive object.
[Pickthal 94:8] And strive to please thy Lord.
[Yusufali 94:8] And to thy Lord turn (all) thy attention.

Here is the another verse where the same verb is used:

Surah Al-Ghashiya, Verse 19:
وَإِلَى الْجِبَالِ كَيْفَ نُصِبَتْ

And the mountains, how they are firmly fixed,
(English - Shakir)

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Furthermore, if we, for the sake of argument, accept that the correct translation is "nominate", what does that mean? 

What is the point of time in Prophet's life which can be considered suitable for فَرَغْتَ ? 

After the last hajj, we see that religion becomes perfected and blessings been completed, making the Prophet free from his duties of conveying the divine guidance to mankind. Or if you know any other stage which can be considered as where Prophet becomes free from his duties, let us know.

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

How does it follow that "nominate" necessarily means "nominate a successor to succeed you upon your death"?

What was done by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at ghadeer? He informed all that he would soon depart them and he fixed Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as "Mowla"of all believers, declared for him the designation of wilayah by commanding "man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mowla". 

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

So you are admitting that your "infallible Imams" had kasbi Imamate, they prayed to Allah to make them Imams, and Allah made them Imams because of their devotion and prayer?

the verses mentions highest quality of a believer that doesn't  commit a single sin from beginning  of his life as verse 33:33 mentioned  that Allah cleared them & protected them from commiting  any sins  that every Kasbi Imam could be commit a sin during his lifetime but if they weren't  divinely appointed  Imams then they were best candidates  for Kasbi Imamate  anyway they are divinely  appointed  Imams.

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On 8/16/2020 at 4:32 PM, Cool said:

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

How can they even justify the selection made in saqifa after this verse? 

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9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Kasbi Imamate does not mean someone becomes an Imam simply because people have appointed him. Kasbi Imamate refers to someone who has become worthy of the ascription Imam through prayer and piety, as per 25:74, and therefore, Allah grants him his prayer to become an Imam through the agency of people, or even without the people recognizing him as such.

I have many times asked you to provide a verse for example  (by name preferably) of an imam that was chosen by making prayer only (as per your thoughts kasbi immamat as chosen by the people) but there is no response thus it confirms there  is no more left from your side to validate your false claim.  Thus your all efforts to twist the meaning of the verse (25:74) to derive a particular meaning for your so called fudge kasbi imamat has gone  in vain.

Thus it also confirms that all the imams guided imams are appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by thy command and no one has any thing to do with it except it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permission to choose the persons are prophets / caliphs / successors/ leaders.

Thus in earlier example that i have already quoted with hadith that imam Ali as is the imam of pious (imam ul mutaqeen). He has also been appointed as Mawla at Ghadeer  with his  confirmed immamat.

wasalam

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Posted (edited)
On 8/16/2020 at 4:32 AM, Cool said:

You believe that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never nominated anyone as his caliph/successor. Well do you believe Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever disobeyed God? If not, then see from the very beginning it was the divine plan than Prophet should "nominate" his successor.

Surah Al-Inshirah, Verse 7:
فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانصَبْ

So when you are free, nominate.
(English - Shakir)

See how the command is there even in the Makkan surah. Quran as well as Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has repeatedly informed us about the chosen ones. 33:33, 3:61, 5:55, 4:59 are few examples of where these chosen ones have been mentioned as Tahireen, Sadiqeen, Waliullah, Ulil Amr. Each of these takes us to 12 Imams.

Then you have the hadith of ghadeer, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) finally nominated Ali as "mowla" of all believers after finishing with the last hajj.

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) delivered the divine message and acted upon it by nominating Ali (عليه السلام) as "mowla" which only means master/guardian here. So instead of you asking us the proof, we should ask you about the legitimacy of Abu Bakr who was not even nominated, neither he belongs to the progeny of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), neither he was from Tahireen, neither from Sadiqeen etc. 

Now there exist a hadith of 12 caliphs in Islamic texts:

Well interpretation of verses has been provided by yourself. I also like to add the following in sequence:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَن تُؤَدُّوا الْأَمَانَاتِ إِلَىٰ أَهْلِهَا وَإِذَا حَكَمْتُم بَيْنَ النَّاسِ أَن تَحْكُمُوا بِالْعَدْلِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ نِعِمَّا يَعِظُكُم بِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا

Shakir: English 

Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing. (4:58)

Then very next verse:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ

Shakir: English

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; (4:59)

The verse 4:58 mentions for the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to provide the trusts / Ammanat to the truthful owners.  And certainly the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has given the authority to their truthful owners instead of leaving the nation/ ummah without any successor.

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Shakir: English

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

Verse 5:55 provides the evidence that  they are Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the prophet s.aw and first of 12 imam Ali (عليه السلام). whom believers should adhere to and obey them.

The same has also been announced at the event of Ghadeer that " Allah is the  Mawla of the prophet, and Whom ever is the prophet is Mawla Ali is his Mawla".

Thus we follow evidence based approach instead of keeping our eyes closed from the truth. 

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا

Shakir: English 

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly. (17:71)

وَمَن كَانَ فِي هَٰذِهِ أَعْمَىٰ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمَىٰ وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا

Shakir: English

And whoever is blind in this, he shall (also) be blind in the hereafter; and more erring from the way.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

First Response

25:74 is not quoting the prayer of any specific Prophet or individual

Second Response

Allah Himself is teaching ordinary Muslims to repeat the prayer of 25:74 by mentioning this prayer as one of the virtuous qualities of the Believers. This is evident from the context of the Verse, when read in conjunction with verses preceding and proceeding it. Therefore, review this entire passage then tell me this prayer is not meant to be a prayer of ordinary Believers.

You can not deny the fact that it is prayer of the someone which Allah quoted in the quran. You don’t know whose is a different matter.

There are many verses in the quran which quotes the words without mentioning the name of the one who uttered it. For example who spoke the following words is not mentioned by name in the quran

They are the ones who say, "Do not spend on those who are with the Messenger of Allah until they disperse….63:7

They say, "If we return to Medina, surely the more honourable  will expel therefrom the meaner." 63:8

There is hadith in Sahih Al Bukhari ( hadith no 4901)  which states that above words were uttered by Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul. Although quran has not mentioned him by the name.

 Narrated Zaid bin Arqam:

I was with my uncle and I heard `Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul, saying, "Don't spend on those who are with Allah's Messenger () that they may disperse and go away from him." He also said, "If we return to Medina, surely, the more honorable will expel the meaner."

 Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul is referred by plural (in Arabic) since then sunnis have no problem for plural used for single man. But when it comes to the verse of Wilaya  they come up with the excuse that  it is in the plural so can’t be applied to Imam Ali(عليه السلام)

63:7-8 ,Yaquluna (they say) :  Said by Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul

25:74   Yaquluna (they Say) : Don’t know Who said.

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31 minutes ago, elite said:

You can not deny the fact that it is prayer of the someone which Allah quoted in the quran. You don’t know whose is a different matter.

Incorrect as usual. Allah عز وجل is not quoting any one, He is describing the virtue of those who offer this supplication. It is a general supplication not specific to any individual. The context of 25:74 proves this plainly. There is absolutely no internal indication within the passage and context that this prayer is restricted to any group of individuals.

And for the sake of argument, if I accept the Twelver Shi'ah position that 25:74 is a prayer that is restricted for the Twelve Imams, it demonstrates that the Imamate of the Twelve Imams is kasbi and not wahbi.

And our original discussion was for me to prove that there is the possibility of Kasbi Imamate in Islam. It is not the purpose of our discussion to discuss which personalities are worthy of Imamate and which aren't. Our discussion in not regarding personalities but regarding the possibility and existence of Kasbi Imamate.

So 25:74 is part of a broader passage of Quranic verses which in context is describing certain virtues of the Believers. If you restrict 25:74 to the 12 Imams you will face another difficulty. According to your doctrine, the 12 Imams are ma'sum in the sense that let alone sinning or erring, it is impossible for them to even experience sinful thoughts or Satanic whispers. According to you, the 12 Imams cannot even be tempted to commit an error. Therefore, according to you the 12 Imams are exempt from repentance, because repentance is only for those who commit errors and sins.

Now read 25:71

وَمَن تَابَ وَعَمِلَ صَـٰلِحًا فَإِنَّهُۥ يَتُوبُ إِلَى ٱللَّـهِ مَتَابًا

"And whoever repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a (goodly) turning."

So the group of Believers which Allah is describing in this passage of Surat al-Furqan are characterized by several characteristics: they repent and they pray to Allah to make them Imams for the righteous. These characteristics cannot be separated, they are part of the same passage that is describing the same group of Believers whom Allah is praising.

Finally, consider the fact that this Ayah of the Quran is such a challenge and problem for Twelver Shi'ah doctrine regarding the Imamate that they had no choice but to declare it an example of Tahrif (alteration) of the holy Quran.

According to the Shi’ite scholar Ali b. Ibrahim al-Qummi (d.919 CE):

قرئت على أبي عبد الله عليه السلام: وَالَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا هَبْ لَنَا مِنْ أَزْوَاجِنَا وَذُرِّيَّاتِنَا قُرَّةَ أَعْيُنٍ وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا [الفرقان: 74] فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: لقد سألوا الله عظيما أن يجعلهم للمتقين إماما. فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله كيف نزلت؟ فقال: إنما نزلت: (الذين يقولون ربنا هب لنا من أزواجنا وذرياتنا قرة أعين واجعل لنا من المتقين إماما)

The Verse “And those who say our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an Imam for the righteous” (25:74) was read in the presence of Abi Abdillah ((عليه السلام)), so he said: “They have asked Allah for something great that He makes them an Imam for the righteous.” So it was said to him: “O son of Allah’s Messenger, how was it revealed?” So he said: “Verily it was revealed: Those who say, our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make for us from the righteous an Imam”

title.png

Distortion+of+25.74+and+make+for+us+from

So according to this Shi'ah Hadith, the Ayah as we read it today is not how it was originally revealed, because they attribute to Imam Ja'far رحمة الله عليه the saying that the Ayah as we read it today means the Believers are asking Allah for something great that He makes them an Imam for the righteous.

Therefore, you have only 2 choices:

First Choice: Accept that the Ayah 25:74 proves Kasbi Imamate and that Believers without restriction can pray to Allah to grant them the rank of Imamate and that Allah may fulfill their supplication if He wishes, in which case the Twelver doctrine of Imamate is repudiated

Second Choice: Accept that the Ayah 25:74 as we read it today is a distortion and not how it was originally revealed, in which case you will have bought into another Twelver doctrine, Tahrif al-Quran

There is simply no third choice, there is absolutely no way to reconcile 25:74 as it exists in today's Quran with the Twelver doctrine of Imamate. If, as according to the Hadith I quoted, Imam Abi Abdillah couldn't reconcile 25:74, then how do you expect to reconcile it?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

According to your doctrine, the 12 Imams are ma'sum in the sense that let alone sinning or erring, it is impossible for them to even experience sinful thoughts or Satanic whispers. According to you, the 12 Imams cannot even be tempted to commit an error. Therefore, according to you the 12 Imams are exempt from repentance, because repentance is only for those who commit errors and sins.

Salam it's a wrong understanding  from Shia doctrine about 12 Imams that as you said they are 'ma'sum' but also they are capable of experiencing   'sinful thoughts or Satanic whispers ' even they can commit any sin or an error but they know reality of committing sin & it's consequences  by divine guidance through  Allah also their Taqwa (piety) stops them from disobying  Allah even in blink of Allah so they ask for repentance both for themselves & for sins of their shias too  that because they don't  commit a sin they accept consequences of sins of their shias for themselves that you can read Sahifa Sajjadia to see that how  Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) ask for repentance  also there is many duas from rest of 12 Imams have recorded duas about repentance  but anti shia people are saying that Twelvers  think that their 12 Imams can't do sins because  they are incomplete  people that is a great insult to Prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & his Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) by wahabists  & Nasibi people  by accusing their misunderstandings  about  Twelvers belief about 12 Imams .

Supplication - 8 His Supplication in Seeking Refuge from Hateful Things, Bad Moral Qualities, and Blameworthy Acts

http://www.duas.org/sajjadiya/s08.htm

Supplication - 5 His Supplication for himself and thePeople under his Guardianship

http://www.duas.org/sajjadiya/s05.htm

http://www.duas.org/sajjadiya/sajjadiya.htm

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-al-sajjadiyya-imam-ali-zayn-al-abidin

I hope so that this solves your misunderstanding about concept of infallibility in shia viewpoint  & you don't  repeat your nonsense  about infallibity  that you learned from anti shia sources.

Quote

Iṣma or Infallibility (Arabic: العِصمَة) means abstinence from sins and from disobedience to God. The belief in the infallibility of the prophets and Imams, from intentional or unintentional sins, is a part of Shi'a creed. Infallibility from making mistakes in daily life issues –in addition to religious issues- is a matter of disagreement among scholars.

Belief in the legitimacy of any religion and following its teachings precedes the substantiation of the infallibility of its prophet. In intra-faith discussions, the infallibility of the prophets (a) in receiving and conveying the divine revelation is demonstrated through rational arguments. However, infallibility in other practical aspects of their lives is mostly demonstrated through arguments driven from authoritative texts.

 

Quote
  • Ash'ari viewpoint: Ash'ari theologians, because of their belief in predestination (jabr) –that Human beings have no freewill (ikhtiyar) in their actions and behavior- have defined infallibility as: the state in which the sins are not created by God in one particular human being.[5]
  • Imamiyya and Mu'tazila viewpoint: Imamiyya and Mu'tazila theologians, based on their belief that the inherent good and evil (Ḥusn va Qubḥ) of things are known by reason and the principle of benevolence (Qa'ida al-Luṭf), have defined 'isma as: deliberate abstinence from committing sins, because of divine benevolence bestowed upon one particular person.[6] Al-'Allama al-Hilli defines 'isma as a hidden kindness of God for His servant, which leaves no motivation in the servant for disregarding obligations or committing sins, while he/she is capable of both.[7] Although this state seems similar to the state of piety (taqwa), it is actually much higher than taqwa, to the level that it prevents the person from committing any indecent act even as a thought[8] and gains the person the highest levels of people's trust.[9]
  •  
  • "And when his Lord tested Ibrahim with certain words, and he fulfilled them, He said, 'I am making you the Imam of mankind.' Said he (Ibrahim), 'And from among my descendants?' He said, 'My pledge does not extend to the unjust.'" (Qur'an 2:124)
  • Narration about Imam Ali (a) and the Imams of his progeny

    The Prophet of Islam (s) said: whoever wishes to look at the red ruby stick which God has planted with His hands and hold onto it, he should have the Wilaya of 'Ali and the Imams from his progeny, for they are the chosen ones by God and the pure ones and the infallibles from all sins and mistakes.[35]

    This Hadith explicitly states the infallibility of Shi'a Imams.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Infallibility

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9 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 read Sahifa Sajjadia to see that how  Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) ask for repentance  also there is many duas from rest of 12 Imams have recorded duas about repentance

Indeed, in fact, Du'a Kumayl, which according to your literature Amir al-Mu'minin Ali bin Abi Talib كرم الله وجهه الكريم used to supplicate with to Allah, including in Sujud, contains the following prayers:

اللَّهُمَّ اغْفِرْ لِي كُلَّ ذَنْبٍ أَذْنَبْتُهُ وَكُلَّ خَطِيئَةٍ أَخْطَأْتُهَا

"O Allah, forgive me for every sin I have committed and for every mistake I have made!"

كُلَّ جُرْمٍ أَجْرَمْتُهُ

"Every offence I have committed,"

وَكُلَّ ذَنْبٍ أَذْنَبْتُهُ

"And every sin I have performed,"

Apparently and ironically, the Imams you regard as Ma'sum did not themselves believe they possessed Ismah.

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29 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Apparently and ironically, the Imams you regard as Ma'sum did not themselves believe they possessed Ismah

they clearly  believe to their Ismah that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) thought this dua to Kumail (رضي الله عنه) but original name of dua is Dua of Khidr (عليه السلام) but because  Imam thought it to Kumail  (رضي الله عنه) it's more known as Dua Kumail for forgiveness  of his shias.

Quote

Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind of them as you would thereby be ruined.

انْظُرُوا أَهْلَ بَيْتِ نَبِيِّكُمْ فَالْزَمُوا سَمْتَهُمْ، وَاتَّبِعُوا أَثَرَهُمْ فَلَنْ يُخْرِجُوكُمْ مِنْ هُدىً، وَلَنْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِي رَدىً، فَإِنْ لَبَدُوا فَالْبُدُوا، وَإِنْ نَهَضُوا فَانْهَضُوا، وَلاَ تَسْبِقُوهُمْ فَتَضِلُّوا، وَلاَ تَتَأَخَّرُوا عَنْهُمْ فَتَهْلِكُوا

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-97-although-allah-gives-time-oppressor

https://www.al-islam.org/shia-rebuts-sayyid-rida-husayni-nasab/question-6-why-do-you-regard-your-imams-as-infallible-masum

https://www.al-islam.org/tenets-islam-shaykh-tusi/imams-are-infallible

Sunni Feedback on the Issues of Infallibility and Ahlul-Bayt

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/sunni-feedback-issues-infallibility-and-ahlul-bayt

Quote

Narration about Imam Ali (a) and the Imams of his progeny

The Prophet of Islam (s) said: whoever wishes to look at the red ruby stick which God has planted with His hands and hold onto it, he should have the Wilaya of 'Ali and the Imams from his progeny, for they are the chosen ones by God and the pure ones and the infallibles from all sins and mistakes.[35]

This Hadith explicitly states the infallibility of Shi'a Imams.

Quote

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Allah never sends a prophet or gives the Caliphate to a Caliph but that he (the Prophet or the Caliph) has two groups of advisors: A group advising him to do good and exhorts him to do it, and the other group advising him to do evil and exhorts him to do it. But the protected person (Ma'soom) is the one who is protected by Allah.'"(1)

1. (Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.306)

http://en.al-shia.org/content/infallibility-prophets-quran-and-hadith-3

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322287843_Infallibility_of_Prophets_and_Imams_in_the_Doctrines_of_Ahl_al-Sunnah_and_al-Shi'ah_al-Imamiyyah_al-Ithna_'Ashariyyah

Conspiracy Against Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Quote

"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place in my comunity.”(Qur’an 7:142).

وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِأَخِيهِ هَارُونَ اخْلُفْنِي فِي قَوْمِي

Notice that "Ukhlufni”and "Khalifa”(Caliph) are exactly from the same root. Now, to realized what was narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari, we need to replace the word "Moses”with "Muhammad”and "Aaron”with "‘Ali", and we are all set!! The sentence becomes "And Muhammad (S) said to his ‘brother’ ‘Ali, take my place among my community.”

Of course, the tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari excluded the Prophethood for Imam ‘Ali, and what remains for him is the leadership of the community. Putting the above 3 verses of Qur’an beside what has been narrated by al- Bukhari and Muslim, Ibn Majah and many others, we solves the mystery! ‘Ali is the "brother”and his deputy/successor.

By the above authentic tradition, the Prophet (S) meant that as Moses had left behind Aaron to look after his people when he went to Miqaat (meeting Allah), in the same way he was leaving ‘Ali behind to look after the affairs of Islam after he met Allah (i.e., his death).

Confirming what the above tradition implies, we find in the many reports that Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) received the title of the "brother”of Prophet when Prophet established the "brothering”among his followers (see Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p363; Sirah Ibn Hisham, p504; Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, v4, p251).

Interestingly enough, the Prophet in that occasion made Abu Bakr and Umar brother of each other (al-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa’d, v3, part 1, p123). If Abu Bakr was really the closest to the Prophet, he would have chose him for himself instead of Imam ‘Ali.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/conspiracy-against-imam-ali

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«عن الحسین بن علی، عن أبیه علی علیهم السلام قَالَ دَخَلْتُ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلی الله علیه وآله فِی بَیْتِ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ وَقَدْ نَزَلَتْ عَلَیْهِ هَذِهِ الْآیَةُ «إِنَّما یُرِیدُ اللَّهُ لِیُذْهِبَ عَنْکُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَیْتِ وَیُطَهِّرَکُمْ تَطْهِیراً»، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلی الله علیه وآله: یَا عَلِیُّ هَذِهِ الْآیَةُ نَزَلَتْ فِیکَ وَ فِی سِبْطَیَّ وَالْأَئِمَّةِ مِنْ وُلْدِکَ. قُلْتُ یَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَکَمِ الْأَئِمَّةُ بَعْدَکَ؟ قَالَ: أَنْتَ یَا عَلِیُّ، ثُمَّ ابْنَاکَ الْحَسَنُ وَالْحُسَیْنُ، وَبَعْدَ الْحُسَیْنِ عَلِیٌّ ابْنُهُ، وَبَعْدَ عَلِیٍّ مُحَمَّدٌ ابْنُهُ، وَبَعْدَ مُحَمَّدٍ جَعْفَرٌ ابْنُهُ، وَبَعْدَ جَعْفَرٍ مُوسَى ابْنُهُ،‏ وَبَعْدَ مُوسَى عَلِیٌّ ابْنُهُ، وَبَعْدَ عَلِیٍّ مُحَمَّدٌ ابْنُهُ، وَبَعْدَ مُحَمَّدٍ عَلِیٌّ ابْنُهُ، وَبَعْدَ عَلِیٍّ الْحَسَنُ ابْنُهُ، وَبَعْدَ الْحَسَنِ ابْنُهُ الْحُجَّةُ مِنْ وُلْدِ الْحَسَنِ، هَکَذَا وَجَدْتُ أَسَامِیَهُمْ مَکْتُوبَةً عَلَى سَاقِ الْعَرْشِ فَسَأَلْتُ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ عَنْ ذَلِکَ فَقَالَ: یَا مُحَمَّدُ هُمُ الْأَئِمَّةُ بَعْدَکَ مُطَهَّرُونَ مَعْصُومُونَ وَأَعْدَاؤُهُمْ مَلْعُونُونَ»(13)؛

(13). کفایة الأثر فی النص على الأئمة الاثنی عشر، الخزاز القمی الرازی، أبی القاسم علی بن محمد بن علی، تحقیق: الحسینی الکوه کمری الخوئی، السید عبد اللطیف، نشر بیدار، قم، 1401هـ.ق، ص 156. 

It was narrated from Imam Hussein from his father, Imam Ali (عليه السلام), that the Imam said: I arrived at the house of Umm Salma, to presence of the Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), until the verse:33:33 It was revealed, the Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: O Ali, this verse has been revealed for you and for my two grandchildren [Hassan and Hussein] and the Imams from your children. I said to the Prophet: O Messenger of God, how many Imams are there after you? prophet said: You, O Ali, then your two children Hassan and Hussein, and after them Ali, the son of Hussein, and after him Muhammad, the son of Ali, and after him Jafar, and after him Musa, and after him Ali, and after him Muhammad, and thenafter him Ali and after him Hassan and after him Hujjat son of Hassan, whose names I read in the foot of the throne and asked from Allah. Allah said: These are the Imams after you who are pure and infallible and their enemies are cursed).

Kifāyat al-athar fī l-naṣṣ ʿalā l-aʾimmat al-ithnā ʿashar ʿalayhim al-salām 

http://www.makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=4&lid=0&catid=6411&mid=419120

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Kifayat_al-athar_(book)

 

 

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Apparently and ironically, the Imams you regard as Ma'sum did not themselves believe they possessed Ismah.

What an irony indeed!!! With the same irony you have understood that your God is sitting on the thrown which is carried by angels. 

What is "sin" by the way? 

Disobedience of God & Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Doing that which is prohibited, Keeping envy & nifaq in hearts etc. Being deceived by satan.

Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the mukhlaseen "ibadullah". Satan knew that he cannot deceive the mukhlaseen, those who don't know that are Muslims like you. 

Surah Al-Hijr, Verse 40:
إِلَّا عِبَادَكَ مِنْهُمُ الْمُخْلَصِينَ

Except Thy servants from among them, the devoted ones.
(English - Shakir)

And while you are advocating that everyone is sinner. Would you like to let us know whom would you obey after these commands:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 24:
فَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ وَلَا تُطِعْ مِنْهُمْ آثِمًا أَوْ كَفُورًا

Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Qalam, Verse 8:
فَلَا تُطِعِ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ

So do not yield to the rejecters.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Qalam, Verse 10:
وَلَا تُطِعْ كُلَّ حَلَّافٍ مَّهِينٍ

And yield not to any mean swearer
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Kahf, Verse 28:
وَاصْبِرْ نَفْسَكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَدَاةِ وَالْعَشِيِّ يُرِيدُونَ وَجْهَهُ وَلَا تَعْدُ عَيْنَاكَ عَنْهُمْ تُرِيدُ زِينَةَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَلَا تُطِعْ مَنْ أَغْفَلْنَا قَلْبَهُ عَن ذِكْرِنَا وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ وَكَانَ أَمْرُهُ فُرُطًا

And withhold yourself with those who call on their Lord morning and evening desiring His goodwill, and let not your eyes pass from them, desiring the beauties of this world's life; and do not follow him whose heart We have made unmindful to Our remembrance, and he follows his low desires and his case is one in which due bounds are exceeded.
(English - Shakir)

And while your God is commanding you to obey some people:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 59:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
(English - Shakir)

So if the "ulil amr" would be  آثِمًا (sinners),   كَفُورًا (kafireen) الْمُكَذِّبِينَ (liars),  ghafileen, حَلَّافٍ مَّهِينٍ (mean swearers), followers of their low desires etc, whom would you obey? 

Simple question @Cherub786 & again a checkmate in advance. :hahaha:

 

 

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6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Incorrect as usual. Allah عز وجل is not quoting any one, He is describing the virtue of those who offer this supplication. It is a general supplication not specific to any individual. The context of 25:74 proves this plainly. There is absolutely no internal indication within the passage and context that this prayer is restricted to any group of individuals.

And for the sake of argument, if I accept the Twelver Shi'ah position that 25:74 is a prayer that is restricted for the Twelve Imams, it demonstrates that the Imamate of the Twelve Imams is kasbi and not wahbi.

And our original discussion was for me to prove that there is the possibility of Kasbi Imamate in Islam. It is not the purpose of our discussion to discuss which personalities are worthy of Imamate and which aren't. Our discussion in not regarding personalities but regarding the possibility and existence of Kasbi Imamate.

So 25:74 is part of a broader passage of Quranic verses which in context is describing certain virtues of the Believers. If you restrict 25:74 to the 12 Imams you will face another difficulty. According to your doctrine, the 12 Imams are ma'sum in the sense that let alone sinning or erring, it is impossible for them to even experience sinful thoughts or Satanic whispers. According to you, the 12 Imams cannot even be tempted to commit an error. Therefore, according to you the 12 Imams are exempt from repentance, because repentance is only for those who commit errors and sins.

Now read 25:71

وَمَن تَابَ وَعَمِلَ صَـٰلِحًا فَإِنَّهُۥ يَتُوبُ إِلَى ٱللَّـهِ مَتَابًا

"And whoever repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a (goodly) turning."

So the group of Believers which Allah is describing in this passage of Surat al-Furqan are characterized by several characteristics: they repent and they pray to Allah to make them Imams for the righteous. These characteristics cannot be separated, they are part of the same passage that is describing the same group of Believers whom Allah is praising.

Finally, consider the fact that this Ayah of the Quran is such a challenge and problem for Twelver Shi'ah doctrine regarding the Imamate that they had no choice but to declare it an example of Tahrif (alteration) of the holy Quran.

According to the Shi’ite scholar Ali b. Ibrahim al-Qummi (d.919 CE):

قرئت على أبي عبد الله عليه السلام: وَالَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا هَبْ لَنَا مِنْ أَزْوَاجِنَا وَذُرِّيَّاتِنَا قُرَّةَ أَعْيُنٍ وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا [الفرقان: 74] فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: لقد سألوا الله عظيما أن يجعلهم للمتقين إماما. فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله كيف نزلت؟ فقال: إنما نزلت: (الذين يقولون ربنا هب لنا من أزواجنا وذرياتنا قرة أعين واجعل لنا من المتقين إماما)

The Verse “And those who say our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an Imam for the righteous” (25:74) was read in the presence of Abi Abdillah ((عليه السلام)), so he said: “They have asked Allah for something great that He makes them an Imam for the righteous.” So it was said to him: “O son of Allah’s Messenger, how was it revealed?” So he said: “Verily it was revealed: Those who say, our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make for us from the righteous an Imam”

title.png

Distortion+of+25.74+and+make+for+us+from

So according to this Shi'ah Hadith, the Ayah as we read it today is not how it was originally revealed, because they attribute to Imam Ja'far رحمة الله عليه the saying that the Ayah as we read it today means the Believers are asking Allah for something great that He makes them an Imam for the righteous.

Therefore, you have only 2 choices:

First Choice: Accept that the Ayah 25:74 proves Kasbi Imamate and that Believers without restriction can pray to Allah to grant them the rank of Imamate and that Allah may fulfill their supplication if He wishes, in which case the Twelver doctrine of Imamate is repudiated

Second Choice: Accept that the Ayah 25:74 as we read it today is a distortion and not how it was originally revealed, in which case you will have bought into another Twelver doctrine, Tahrif al-Quran

There is simply no third choice, there is absolutely no way to reconcile 25:74 as it exists in today's Quran with the Twelver doctrine of Imamate. If, as according to the Hadith I quoted, Imam Abi Abdillah couldn't reconcile 25:74, then how do you expect to reconcile it?

Read the verses from 25:63-76 in that servants of the most gracious are distinguished  by “alladhina” (those) and verses begin with “man” (whoever) referring to the sinners.

Servants of the most gracious neither do the Shirk, nor kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for just cause nor commit fornication.

And whoever does that (commit shirk, kill soul without just cause, commit fornication) will get the punishment. The punishment shall be doubled to him on the day of resurrection, and he shall abide therein in abasement; Except him whoever repents and believes and does a good deed; so these are they of whom Allah changes the evil deeds to good ones; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.25:68-69

And whoever (sinner) repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a (goodly) turning. 25:71

“Kasbi Imamat” is the term fabricated by you which does not exist in the quran. Instead Imamat is mentioned  in the quran as “my covenant” that  means Imamat is the covenant of the Allah.

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said  My covenant does not reach to (those) fall short (zalimina). 2:124

Each of the two gardens produced its fruit and did not fall short (tazlim) thereof in anything. And We caused to gush forth within them a river.18:33

From the above verse it is evident that

1.     Imamat is in the offspring of Ibrahim(عليه السلام)

2.     Imamat reaches to the one who is superior in the rank

My covenant does not reach to those fall short means Imamat reaches to the one who is foremost in the deeds of goodness.

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7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

According to the Shi’ite scholar Ali b. Ibrahim al-Qummi (d.919 CE):

قرئت على أبي عبد الله عليه السلام: وَالَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا هَبْ لَنَا مِنْ أَزْوَاجِنَا وَذُرِّيَّاتِنَا قُرَّةَ أَعْيُنٍ وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا [الفرقان: 74] فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: لقد سألوا الله عظيما أن يجعلهم للمتقين إماما. فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله كيف نزلت؟ فقال: إنما نزلت: (الذين يقولون ربنا هب لنا من أزواجنا وذرياتنا قرة أعين واجعل لنا من المتقين إماما)

The Verse “And those who say our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an Imam for the righteous” (25:74) was read in the presence of Abi Abdillah ((عليه السلام)), so he said: “They have asked Allah for something great that He makes them an Imam for the righteous.” So it was said to him: “O son of Allah’s Messenger, how was it revealed?” So he said: “Verily it was revealed: Those who say, our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make for us from the righteous an Imam”

title.png

Distortion+of+25.74+and+make+for+us+from

I have already mentioned in earlier post with hadith sahih that Imam Ali as has been referred in sunni hadith as Imam ul Mutaqeen. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067265-twelve-in-quran/?do=findComment&comment=3303854

The above evidence by shia hadith as given above validates again this fact .

This is considered   as double check mate for your thoughts about false claim of kasbi imamat  (chosen by the people or it is supposed to be acquired by making prayers). All such foolish  thoughts are rejected as these do not exist in quran.  :hahaha:

More over the verses of quran clarify  other verses of quran and it is also reconfirmed and re-validated that there is no verse in quran by mentioning the example (by name) of a kasbi imam whether chosen by the people or made as imam by making the prayers  as it does not exist in quran.

This is another defeat of sunni thoughts about declaration of imam  ul Mutaqeen Ali as Mawla of believers at Gahdeer. (The link is given below for reference).

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067265-twelve-in-quran/?do=findComment&comment=3304115

Edited by Muslim2010
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