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Guest curiousteen

Do all non-muslims go to hell?

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9 hours ago, Reza said:

The overall concept of hell, in the most broad Abrahamic meaning has become so ubiquitous, most don’t preface a “type” of hell, even though there’s disagreements about details. 

What is the "broad Abrahamic meaning?" Hell in Islam and Christianity is pretty similar and it has a lot of similarity to hell in Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, but there is no Hell in Judaism.

6 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

The criteria for entry differ.

Liars, murderers and adulterers go to hell in most religions including Islam, providing they do not repent. The only real difference is shirk. At least in Buddhism and Hinduism, but even that is debatable.

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Guest nay?Monad!

the interesting factor is that :

A ) Evidence was given and does exist to claim that non-believers will go to heaven and it seems the criteria for heaven is not a simple exposition of the belief in a diety but the qualitativeness of the being in question. First and formost attending to becoming a good human being. Religions are just tools to push humans towards that goodness as it is a freeform of guidance and education.

B) Why are other posters making claims that this is incorrect. Perhaps re-read your works?.

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On 7/7/2020 at 10:54 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

That would be unjust.

@Ejaz

If non-Muslims were to be judged by how much they adhere to their own religion, it would be unjust because some don't have religions without major problems (e.g. rational or moral problems), and others don't have any religions at all in their own community.

Every situation is different and everyone must be judged according to their circumstances. 

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We were previously looking at what a few great Imamī scholars had to say on the issue of all Muslims reaching salvation, or more appropriately, the salvation of mankind completely. Yes, everyone, with the handful of exceptions, as the Qur’ān explicitly says: “And they denied the signs, though their souls acknowledged them[1]. So these people spoken about had certainty in what was true, and then they denied that. The word here used in Arabic refers to someone who rejects what they have established and accepted to be true.

This person has accepted in his heart that such and such an issue is correct, yet despite this certainty, he acts rebelliously against it. Of course, such a person shall be punished accordingly. On the contrary, who so ever does not act rebelliously against something they have accepted to be true, irrespective of the religion or custom they adhere to, shall reach salvation. The only exception to this would be if the individual acted in contrary to whatever their religion, custom, society or sect considered forbidden, in such an instance they shall be punished. On what basis? On the basis that they believed that those actions were forbidden yet they still performed them. Just like you and I.

You and I, as followers of the school of the Ahlulbayt, if we commit an act which is considered (within this school) to be forbidden we will be held accountable for that except where we are fortunate to receive intercession from God or the Prophet and his Family. This is in relation to us and our actions, what about all the other people from various religions? Just before we continue this discussion I don’t want to get to get too bogged down with terminologies, as to who is considered culpable (muqassir)  and non-culpable (qāsir), as the jurists have differed with each other in relation to its definition. To give a general reminder, that if a person has a certainty providing proof and acts according to what the proof proves, irrespective of it being correct in reality, he will reach salvation.

This is a fundamental principle, that there exists a certainty producing proof and that a persons actions reflect what he believes. And that he is truthful to what he believes and acts sincerely in accordance to it. Such a person will be saved on the Day of Judgement. It isn’t important whether the person was amongst the people of Truth or not. Neither is it important whichever religion or faith he comes from, and whether the practices he adheres to come from a Divine message (like the Abrahamic faiths) or they don’t.

Syed Khomeinī in his jurisprudential discussion on Makāsib al-Muharrama brings up this discussion when mentioning the ruling of a transaction (with a non-Muslim) which involves harām money. What is the verdict on the non-Muslim laymen who follow other religions, like Judaism or Christianity? He says:

اما عوامهم فظاهر، لعدم انقداح خلاف ما هم عليه من المذاهب في اذهانهم بل هم قاطعون بصحة مذهبهم وبطلان ساير المذاهب

As for their laymen, it is apparent that [beliefs to] the contrary of what they believe in do not occur to them, on the contrary, they are absolutely certain that their religion is correct and all the others are false. [2]

Here obviously the laymen being referred to are those who aren’t scholars. Here Syed Khomeinī is saying that all of the Christian laymen, all of the Jewish laymen will reach salvation. For what reason? Because they believe and are convinced that they have the truth, and that this truth cannot be found anywhere else but their religion. And this is exactly the same with the Muslim laymen, (who believe that truth is absolutely with them and cannot be found elsewhere). He continues:

 نظير عوام المسلمين، فكما ان عوامنا عالمون بصحة مذهبهم وبطلان ساير المذاهب من غير انقداح خلاف في اذهانهم لاجل التلقين والنشو في محيط الاسلام، كذلك عوامهم من غير فرق بينهما من هذه الجهة، والقاطع معذور في متابعة قطعه ولايكون عاصيا وآثما ولا تصح عقوبته في متابعته

Just like the Muslim laymen, our laymen know that their religion is correct and that all others are false. It doesn’t even occur to them [that they may be wrong]. This is due to the indoctrination [they have had] and [also due to] growing up within an Islamic environment. The laymen of other religions are the same, and there is no difference between them in this respect. The person who is certain [of being with the Truth] is exonerated in acting upon his certainty. He is not a sinner or a transgressor, and neither will he be punished in following his certainty.  [3]

This is precisely the fundamental principle I have been mentioning, that it is irrelevant whether a person acts in according to reality or not, and on top of this he will not be punished for doing so. Now you might be thinking, that’s fine for their laymen but what about their scholars? What about the Buddhist scholars, the Sunni scholars, the Wahhabi scholars, scholars from whatever religion or creed you can think of, what’s the verdict on them?

 واما غير عوامهم فالغالب فيهم انه بواسطة التلقينات من اول الطفولية والنشو في محيط الكفر: صاروا جازمين ومعتقدين بمذاهبهم الباطلة بحيث كل ما ورد على خلافها ردوها بعقولهم المجبولة على خلاف الحق من بدو نشوهم، فالعالم اليهودي و النصراني كالعالم المسلم لا يرى حجة الغير صحيحة وصار بطلانها كالضروري له، لكون صحة مذهبه ضرورية لديه لا يحتمل خلافه

As for their scholars, due to the indoctrination, they have had since childhood and from living in an environment of disbelief, the majority of them have become certain and believe in their religion [as the Truth] and see all other religions as false. Because of this, everything they see that contradicts their religion they refute it with their intellects that had been fashion from their early age in opposition to the Truth.  The Jewish scholar and the Christian scholar is just like the Muslim scholar, they do not consider the proof of other religions to be correct, and they reject the proof [against them] like it was essential to them,  on the basis that their own religion is absolutely correct and there is no option to entertain [ideas to] the contrary of it. [4]

This is what Syed Khomeinī has to say on this. He also mentions the “majority” of them (like I mentioned in the beginning). Why? Because (just like the laymen) they too consider that the Truth is in their religion, their jurisprudence, their way of thinking and their creed. I would add to what Syed Khomeinī has said and said that even the Buddhist scholars, the Sunni scholars, the Ash’ari scholars etc, all of them are to be exonerated (ma’dhῡr).

Unfortunately, you’ll find in the works of some scholars this strange notion that when a person reaches certainty (yaqīn) they have automatically acted in accordance with what is True in reality. It would appear that these scholars haven’t read the basics of epistemology, as if that was the case (that everyone who acted on certainty also acted in accordance with what is True in reality), you would get a contradiction. Is it possible that a Jewish person reaches certainty on one thing and I reach certainty on the complete opposite yet both of us are acting in according to reality? This is absurd! Only one person can be right, but since both have certainty, they are both exonerated. This is known as the Principle of Certainty. Unless a person has a considerable level of doubt in a matter that the Truth may be in another religion yet ignores it arrogantly and dogmatically, then such a person would be held accountable on the Day of Judgement.

So to conclude, these were the words of another great Imāmi scholar which were completely coherent with the idea that I have been mentioning of the permissibility in acting according to any Islamic madhab, in fact the permissibility in acting according to any Divine religion, no, in fact any path or creed whatsoever, so long as the three conditions mentioned previously are adhered to.

https://www.iqraonline.net/

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6 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

@Ejaz

If non-Muslims were to be judged by how much they adhere to their own religion, it would be unjust because some don't have religions without major problems (e.g. rational or moral problems), and others don't have any religions at all in their own community.

Every situation is different and everyone must be judged according to their circumstances. 

Yes, in the full article it says that the religion must be based on the fitrah. So I suppose they may be judged on how much they adhere to the fitrah.

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I didn't know this text was online:

Quote

Abu Ja`far al-Baqir (عليه السلام) said:
When the Day of Judgement comes, Allah, the Mighty and High, will hold objection
against seven: the child, the one who died during the period between two prophets, the
elderly senile man who lived during the period of prophecy, the simple-minded person,
the mentally ill, the deaf and the dumb.
Each of these defendants will plead their case to Allah, the Mighty and High. Allah, the
Mighty and High, will send to them a messenger. He will light a fire for them and say:
Verily, your Lord has commanded you to jump into it. Thus, whoever jumps in it, it will
become cool, and a means of peace for him, and whoever resist will be driven to the
Hell.

http://jaffaribooks.com/books/Tawhid sadooq english final.pdf  

Page 422

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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23 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I didn't know this text was online:

http://jaffaribooks.com/books/Tawhid sadooq english final.pdf  

Page 422

I don't really get the first hadith...Do you understand it?

The Messenger of Allah (SA) said: “Neither I nor anyone before me has said anything like: `There is no god but Allah’ [La ilaha illa Allah].”

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On 7/8/2020 at 2:03 PM, Guest curiousteen said:

im sorry but unlike you I have non-muslim friends that I care about and who I don't want to see in hell - so yes, I think it's a valid question

Inshallah if you care enough about them meaning they must be special, and Allah will judge them based on their inner and personal situation.

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17 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

@Ejaz

If non-Muslims were to be judged by how much they adhere to their own religion, it would be unjust because some don't have religions without major problems (e.g. rational or moral problems), and others don't have any religions at all in their own community.

Every situation is different and everyone must be judged according to their circumstances. 

Yes, in the full article it says that it’s to the extent that they adhere to their fitrah. 

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Quote

From another thread:
Allāmah Majlisīquotes from the book Thawābul A`māl of Shaykh Ŝadūq that `Alī Ibn Yaqtīn narrated from Imām Mūsā Ibn Ja`far al-Kādhim (عليه السلام) that he said, “Amongst the Banī Isrā’īl (Children of Isrā’il) there was a believer whose neighbour was an unbeliever. That unbeliever would always show kindness and good conduct towards his believing neighbour. When this unbeliever died, God made for him a house out of a type of mud which shielded him from the heat of the fire, and his sustenance would be given to him from outside his own environment, which was of fire. He was told, ‘This is because of your kindness and good conduct towards your believing neighbour.’” 

 Bihārul Anwār, Volume 3, Page 377

Allāmah Majlisī , after quoting this tradition, says: “This tradition and others like it are evidence that the punishment of some unbelievers in Hell will be lifted, and the verses of Qur’ān that say the punishment of the unbelievers shall not be lightened are with regard to those who have not performed such good deeds.”

2. He also narrates from Imām Muhammad Ibn `Alī al-Bāqir (عليه السلام) that he said, “There was a believer who lived in the land of an oppressive king. That oppressor threatened the believer, and thus, the believer fled to a non-Islāmic land, arriving at the place of a polytheist man. The polytheist sat him beside himself and hosted him well. As soon as the polytheist man died, God addressed him, ‘I swear by My Honour and Glory that if there were a place in Heaven for a polytheist, I would put you in that place; but O’ fire, make him fear, but don’t harm him.’”

Then the Imām said, “Every morning and evening his sustenance is brought for him from outside that environment.” The Imām was asked, “From Heaven?” He answered, “From where God wills.”

Bihārul Anwār, Volume 3, Page 382

the Prophet Muhammad (S) said with regard to several people who lived in the Age of Ignorance: “I saw in Hell the possessor of the tunic and the possessor of the cane who would drive the pilgrims, and also the woman who had a cat which she had tied up and which she would neither feed nor set free so it could find its own food. And I entered Heaven and I saw there the man who saved a dog from thirst and gave it water.

Ibid

 

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On 7/10/2020 at 4:41 AM, AStruggler said:

I don't really get the first hadith...Do you understand it?

The Messenger of Allah (SA) said: “Neither I nor anyone before me has said anything like: `There is no god but Allah’ [La ilaha illa Allah].”

I am not qualified enough to answer that but here is a little something to consider:

Although previous religions did have a belief in one God (look into the work of Wilhelm Schmidt), this hadith says that the Prophet {s} was the first to teach tawheed using that statement. It is a profound statement which says more than just "There is one God", or "Your God is one". It is a negation of all other gods before affirming God. It is not simply a negation of other gods but it is done prior to affirming God. Thus a person that fully submits to Allah, must give up all other gods beforehand. 

There is also the benefit of greater certitude when assessing other gods and realizing that they are not God. It is like the demonstration of prophet Ibrahim {a} in the Quran when he said about the star, the moon and the sun "Is this my lord?": https://quran.com/6/76-79 Often, in order to recognize the truth, you must know that which opposes it.

 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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1 hour ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I am not qualified enough to answer that but here is a little something to consider:

Although previous religions did have a belief in one God (look into the work of Wilhelm Schmidt), this hadith says that the Prophet {s} was the first to teach tawheed using that statement. It is a profound statement which says more than just "There is one God", or "Your God is one". It is a negation of all other gods before affirming God. It is not simply a negation of other gods but it is done prior to affirming God. Thus a person that fully submits to Allah, must give up all other gods beforehand. 

There is also the benefit of greater certitude when assessing other gods and realizing that they are not God. It is like the demonstration of prophet Ibrahim {a} in the Quran when he said about the star, the moon and the sun "Is this my lord?": https://quran.com/6/76-79 Often, in order to recognize the truth, you must know that which opposes it.

 

Thank you for this, was beneficial to read! However, the "Niether I..." part in the benginning is what had initially thrown me off. 

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Some may get upset but first thing of coarse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best. But now unfairness plays , if anyone can go to heaven even an atheist just for being good then I will become atheist today. No fasting so salat it doesn’t matter we just have to be a good person and what is being a good person mean? If I’m atheist I can drink say (moderately) have sex and marry without witnesses why because there’s no one saying it’s halal/haram so how will I know it’s bad or good? We are all sinners but the difference is we are those who repent. Also who is the atheist going to repent to? A statue a ghost? Now obviously if Islam hasn’t ever ever been spread to that specific person then that’s a different thing.


 

point is why do I have to pray fast pay zakat khums all the wajib thing and (be good) when a non Muslim who is just a (good) person can go straight to heaven is that fair? Less rules , responsibility. Let’s say I have a brother who is Muslim by name but hey he believes there’s a divine power out there but he doesn’t do the wajib things of being a Muslim and is overall a good person whatever that means but hey I’m a true believing Muslim I pray fast do everything that is to be a Muslim yet my brother goes to heaven just because he was good exactly like me but didn’t do anything else? Who’s going to forgive when you ask for forgiveness if you belive in nothing.

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