Would You Give Permission To Mutah For Your Daughter?

[Abu_Zahra]

59 minutes ago, Lion of Shia said:

so the non virgin shia ,has to be either divorced or widowed or from a previous one mutah/nikah right, and not zina

Correct

[Zaydism]

On 7/11/2020 at 4:46 PM, Guest LiaIs said:

Yes, and from an Islamic point of view, Mutah is halal. Again, this is about the girl herself. The girl is the one who has strong desires, and she is the one who is asking for a way to relieve them. Why force her to a permanent marriage when she’s asking for Mutah BECAUSE she doesn’t want permanent marriage?

Brother, you need to realize that not everything which is Halal is okay. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave the authority to the father for a reason and inshallah the fathers will exercise that authority in a manner which would benefit their daughter(s) in this world and the hereafter with great consideration of their religion.

[Hassan-]

If she’s not divorced or widowed then no. Although it’s halal (given the father or paternal grandfather’s approval), it will do more harm than good for her. In the Arab culture if a virgin women is known to have done mut’ah then say goodbye to her reputation and future, no man will ever permanently marry her. 
Just because something is halal it doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Hassan-

[BowTie]

That is a very weird subject. 
Even if your daughter is in a normal marriage, you dont really think about it if shes sleeping with her husband and when they’re sleeping together.

If my daughter can make her own decisions and she lives alone and makes her own money, its none of my concern and I wouldnt want to know either.

What a really dumb question.

[Zaydism]

On 7/13/2020 at 11:17 PM, BowTie said:

If my daughter can make her own decisions and she lives alone and makes her own money, its none of my concern and I wouldnt want to know either.

In that case even if she was a virgin since she is financially responsible over herself she would not need your permission anyway.

[Hassan-]

On 7/13/2020 at 11:19 PM, Mohammad313Ali said:

In that case even if she was a virgin since she is financially responsible over herself she would not need your permission anyway.

Even if she is financially responsible she would still need permission.

[Zaydism]

7 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

Even if she is financially responsible she would still need permission.

Thank you for correcting me brother, I remember a scholar telling me it was not necessary, although he was Shirazi. 

Question: If a woman is over thirty years of age, and still virgin, is it necessary for her to seek the permission of her guardian for marriage?

Answer: If she is not independent, it is obligatory on her to seek his consent. Rather, even if she is independent, she must seek his consent, as a matter of compulsory precaution.

https://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01245/

 

[SoRoUsH]

22 hours ago, Hassan- said:

In the Arab culture if a virgin women is known to have done mut’ah then say goodbye to her reputation and future, no man will ever permanently marry her

Then the Arab culture isn't an Islamic (Shi'ite) culture. 

[Anisa Bandeh Khoda]

@AkhiraisReal

W'salaam AkhirasReal,

From a female POV i would highly discourage this. There are many reasons for why I have answered NO, if i had a daughter.

As parents, we have many responsibilities, and one of them is that we must protect our children from harm, whether it be physical, verbal, emotional, psychological. Allowing your daughter into such a contract will put her at risk of these complications which she will not be able to address aloud. 

Protect your daughter, she is a gem and not for all to have. The generation of today are not kind to our daughters. So why place your daughter in a position where she will face many issues. Perhaps even pregnancy. This is not in your control. But be very protective. 

Mutah in my opinion is suitable for women who are intelligent, mature and divorced, or who need support. 

but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best.

[Anonymous-Male]

In the Arab culture if a virgin women is known to have done mut’ah then say goodbye to her reputation and future, no man will ever permanently marry her.

In Pakistani culture, neither men nor women are ever known to have done mut'ah. It is non-existent. 

[AkhiraisReal]

On 7/15/2020 at 4:27 AM, Anonymous-Male said:

In Pakistani culture, neither men nor women are ever known to have done mut'ah. It is non-existent. 

Close the doors of halal and shaytan will open many doors of haram.

[Anonymous-Male]

At the same time, people in these situations where they have no halal doors open for them, but several haram doors available....yet they remain patient and show immense self-control and continue to battle with shaytaan, then their reward is with Allah. They succeed in their war against their own self which calls them to evil and in their jihad against Shaitan who opens several haram doors for them, yet they do not enter through those doors despite having not a single halal option. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Anonymous-Male

[AkhiraisReal]

19 minutes ago, Anonymous-Male said:

At the same time, people in these situations where they have no halal doors open for them, but several haram doors available....yet they remain patient and show immense self-control and continue to battle with shaytaan, then their reward is with Allah. They succeed in their war against their own self which calls them to evil and in their jihad against Shaitan who opens several haram doors for them, yet they do not enter through those doors despite having not a single halal option. 

beautiful said brother. AlhamdulIllah may us all be amongst such pious servants In Sha Allah.

[Hassan-]

18 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Then the Arab culture isn't an Islamic (Shi'ite) culture. 

Of course it’s not, but it’s necessary to follow it because of the reasons I stated. If mutah is halal but can be very harmful, then by logic it is wiser to refrain from it. 

[Kaya]

9 hours ago, Anonymous-Male said:

At the same time, people in these situations where they have no halal doors open for them, but several haram doors available....yet they remain patient and show immense self-control and continue to battle with shaytaan, then their reward is with Allah. They succeed in their war against their own self which calls them to evil and in their jihad against Shaitan who opens several haram doors for them, yet they do not enter through those doors despite having not a single halal option. 

This sounds nice and wishful, but the brutal reality is that 9 out of 10 people will fall into haram when halal doors are closed. That is why Islam emphasises on making marriage easy and accessible, so that people do not engage in Zina. 

For those who mentioned culture as the reason to avoid mutah - culture has an option to either make regular marriage so easy so that nobody would do mutah, or to accept mutah. However, the current state of Culture in islamic countries is such that both regular marriage is made hard for people and mutah looked down upon. This is unacceptable. It has to be one or the other, or people will engage in Zina and society will be corrupted. 

[Abu Hadi]

On 7/14/2020 at 8:25 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Then the Arab culture isn't an Islamic (Shi'ite) culture. 

Islam is it's own culture. Islamic culture has parts in all cultures and other parts which are not part of that culture. See Venn Diagram

[Anonymous-Male]

15 hours ago, Kaya said:

This sounds nice and wishful, but the brutal reality is that 9 out of 10 people will fall into haram when halal doors are closed. That is why Islam emphasises on making marriage easy and accessible, so that people do not engage in Zina. 

Yes, but at the same time Islam also says that if all halal doors are closed, then you are required and expected to be that 1 person who will not sin. Islam doesn't give any relaxation or leeway in rules if halal doors are closed. Even if a person has no halal means, he cannot give this as an excuse to sin. Rather, he would be asked that why did he not remain as patient as that one person out of ten who did not sin. Of course Allah forgives but the rule of law states that if you have to become one out of ten, or one out of 100...then you must be that one person who doesn't sin even when there is no halal way out. 

I'm not claiming holier-than-thou attitude here; I'm just saying that if people sin because halal doors are shut, they cannot present this as an excuse. They cannot justify sinning by saying that only 1 out of 10 can remain chaste, can they? 

Islam recommends early marriages, yet also says that even if marriage doesn't happen for years/decades or for entire life, still the person must not sin at all - like Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) remained unmarried all his life and yet never sinned. That is the target, the goal - to not sin, no matter what happens, even if all halal doors are shut and many haram doors are open. 

I think unmarried people should be encouraged like this to remain chaste by telling that if Islam expects them to be chaste even under extreme situations, then it is possible and achievable with Allah's help. 

On the other hand, if we tell them that they cannot stay chaste without marriage, then they might subconsciously feel that they have an excuse to sin when their marriage does not take place for a long time. 

[Kaya]

20 minutes ago, Anonymous-Male said:

Yes, but at the same time Islam also says that if all halal doors are closed, then you are required and expected to be that 1 person who will not sin.

Yes I agree. But let's not forget that mutah is halal and it is permitted by the fiqh marajah. So as long as this door is not shut, then a majority of people will not fall into Zina. But if you close this halal door with the excuse of "culture" then you will be the direct cause of those 90% who won't be able to stay patient for years and will eventually sin.

So many people go crazy about Mutah but I wonder how many people think about young people falling into sins like masturbation because marriage is made impossible to them. Remember that masturbation is haram in the Fiqh of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) while Mutah is halal. 

We should make our priorities based on the Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

[Anonymous-Male]

I completely agree with you, but I'm talking about something different. 

2 hours ago, Kaya said:

But if you close this halal door with the excuse of "culture" then you will be the direct cause of those 90% who won't be able to stay patient for years and will eventually sin.

Yes, agree. The one who closes halal doors upon others will be held responsible if the other people sin. But this does not acquit the 90% of their own crime too. If a person cannot get married and cannot do mutah for years, and then sins, he will still be held responsible for his sins, because it was obligatory on him to control his sexual desire and he failed to do this. 

If marriage and mutah are both made impossible for a man, and he is forced to wait for years and years, Islamic law will still require him to remain patient and not fall into any sin. He cannot give any justification for any sexual sin even if all halal doors are closed. 

Is there any law in Islam which states that if marriage and mutah have both been made impossible for a man, then after waiting such and such number of years, it would be permissible for him to masturbate once so that he can find at least some sexual outlet? 

Of course not. Islamic law states that no matter how long one has to wait to get married or do mutah, he must still at all cost avoid all sexual sins, and if he falls into sins, then he is a transgressor. He would have crossed the limits set by Allah and he would not be able to give any excuse for his sin. He wouldn't be allowed to claim that he had no option other than sinning.

I believe this shows that no matter how impossible the society/culture makes it for a man to get married/do mutah, if he sins, then he himself is to be blamed for it, because Islam required him to be patient and he failed in this. The society will be held responsible too, but the sinner should be focused on his own sin, rather than blaming others. Why was he not able to remain patient when there were other men in the same situation who did not commit any sexual sins ?

If 10% of the people were those who did not sin, then the 90% who sinned will be shown the example of those 10% and asked that if they had managed to stay chaste, then why did the 90% failed to do so? So if the society is to be blamed, then the sinner themselves are to be blamed as well for not showing sexual patience when Islamic law requires them to do so. 

Having said that, Allah is the one who can not only forgive sins but also convert sins into rewards, if one repents. But this would not mean that anyone can get any right or excise or any justification or any explanation for sinning, if his society makes it impossible for him to get married. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Anonymous-Male

[Kaya]

22 minutes ago, Anonymous-Male said:

If marriage and mutah are both made impossible for a man, and he is forced to wait for years and years, Islamic law will still require him to remain patient and not fall into any sin. He cannot give any justification for any sexual sin even if all halal doors are closed.

Yes I completely agree brother. If someone cannot marry permanently or temporarily then it is his duty to remain patient in Allah (azwj). It seems we are on the same page with this.

I guess my replies were meant more for those who are advocating that we abandon Mutah for fitting in with cultural customs and expectations.

Ws.

[Guest Guest]

Really interesting discussion. I saw this posted on another forum. I would say no matter how mature someone might be there will always be some form of repercussion from this sort of relationship even if it does not work out. Maybe some repercussions aren't as marked as others but worth a read anyway we don't get much honest insight like these : 

https://uandurs.wixsite.com/youandyours/post/his-temporary-marriage-my-long-term-side-effects

[Abu Hadi]

On 7/15/2020 at 6:32 AM, Anonymous-Male said:

At the same time, people in these situations where they have no halal doors open for them, but several haram doors available....yet they remain patient and show immense self-control and continue to battle with shaytaan, then their reward is with Allah. They succeed in their war against their own self which calls them to evil and in their jihad against Shaitan who opens several haram doors for them, yet they do not enter through those doors despite having not a single halal option. 

Yes, but these battles are not meant to go on for years or decades. To be honest, this is maybe the most difficult or one of the most difficult problems that has ever been faced by the Ummah. It is not a simple things. Even if you have ability to keep yourself within the halal and not sin and win the battle with the Shaytan for years or decades, you have to realize that you are not the rule, your are the exception. Meanwhile, the fact that most brothers and sisters fail this test will end up affecting you also, even if you passed the test. You can see the effects of this obviously, I don't think it requires an explanation. 

A test is a test, and injustice is injustice. For example, If I had a business and paid my employees very low wages, such that they were all in poverty, except me and I was extremely rich, some people would say to their employees, 'Oh Brothers and Sisters, poverty is a test, be patient and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will help you and bless you'. Yes, that is true, but you as the Owner are committing an act of Injustice (Thulm) and there are severe consequences for this act, as the Holy Quran states, maybe hundreds of times in different ayats. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the "Basitul Rizk" (Distributor of Sustenance). It is not the duty or right of a human being to take that role. This role is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The responsibility of the human being is only to make sure that Haqq is done, nothing more nothing less. They should give the Haqq, and not less than that. That is because the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is for their to be justice and equity in society. Not equity in the fact that everyone is the same, but equity in the fact that everyone in the society is valued as a human being and given equal opportunity to prosper and life a good life. Some might not take that opportunity, and may squander it or use it in the wrong way, but noone in society has the right to take that opportunity away from people with the excuse that 'Oh, they will misuse it, or some other excuse. 

This idea that has become almost universally accepted in society, that a man is not worthy of being married unless he has a college degree, lots of money in the bank, a house in the suburbs, two cars, etc, etc. is an act of Thulm, injustice. Anyone who will deny a man for their daughter based on the fact that he doesn't have this is a Thalim (an oppressor). The nafakha (required support) is food, a house (any house) and two dresses. The mahr (dowry) of Fatima Zahra was approx $300 USD. This was the dowry of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). Now a man can pay more than this and do more than this, and this is considered to be generous, but to deny him because he lacks this is not part of Islam. 

[Anonymous-Male]

I completely agree with you, 100%. But I'm highlighting a slightly different point. You are talking about the responsibility of the society / culture, that it should not do injustice with young men when they wish to get married, whereas I am referring to the responsibility of the young men themselves when they have to face this injustice. 

9 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Yes, but these battles are not meant to go on for years or decades. To be honest, this is maybe the most difficult or one of the most difficult problems that has ever been faced by the Ummah

Agreed. But the fact remains that if a person is facing this injustice where his marriage does not take place for years or decades, then by Islamic law he would be required to continue waging a battle against his nafs and Shaitan however long it may take. This is not an ideal situation, but the unmarried person still cannot make this as an excuse to sin. Allah will hold the society responsible for doing injustice with the man by not letting him get married, but the man may also be held responsible for sinning and not being patient. So the blame can go to both parties, not just the society.

Yes, it will be the most difficult thing to achieve in life, but is there a way around it, if marriage or mutah is not possible? Does sinning become permissible if a person is unable to get married for a decade? No, it doesn't...and this shows that no matter how unjust the society may be, your duty to remain chaste and patient will not change. There is no relaxation in Islamic law for sexual sins if a person is compelled to be unmarried for very long times. So, if such a person sins, the Islamic court can hold him responsible and punishable for not being patient enough, even if it means being patient for decades. 

9 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Even if you have ability to keep yourself within the halal and not sin and win the battle with the Shaytan for years or decades, you have to realize that you are not the rule, your are the exception

So does that mean that if a person is forced to remain unmarried for years/decades, Islam would give him the permission to do some sexual sins because it is an exception to remain chaste under these circumstances? 

Does Islamic law state that masturbation becomes permissible for a man if the society makes it impossible for him to get married or do mutah for years? No, the law states that no matter how long it may take to get married, whether years or decades, sexual sins will not become allowed at any cost. There is no relaxation in this rule. So, if one has to become an exception to remain chaste for years, then that is what he is expected and obligated to do as per Islamic law.

I'm not saying this is easy; it may be nearly next to impossible - but still this is an obligation and if one fails to remain chaste, then he has definitely crossed the limits set by Allah and Allah can hold him responsible and he may be punished for not being sexually patient for years or decades. However, Allah is most forgiving and is not unjust - but if He has ordered men to remain sexually chaste even if it means very, very extended periods, then men are duty-bound and obligated to do this compulsory requirement. 

Quote

If I had a business and paid my employees very low wages, such that they were all in poverty

If the employees are poor because I am giving them very low wages, Allah will hold me responsible, but the employees would still be expected by Islam to be patient and not steal. If they steal, Allah might hold them responsible too for not being patient enough. 

In summary, I would say that if the society is unjust and prevents a man from getting any halal sexual outlet for years, the man cannot use this as a justification, as a pretext, as an excuse, as a reason to commit any sexual sin. If this means he will have to become an exception, then so be it. 

I'm not claiming infallibility for myself. I'm only talking about what the Islamic law states regarding the obligations of a man who is forced to remain single due to society's injustice. If he sins, he might not get away with it, just because the society was unjust. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Anonymous-Male

[Abu Hadi]

Salam Br. I think you misinterpreting what I am saying. I am not saying that if someone does haram due to the fact that they can't get married, that they are justified in this. I've said many times in the past that if something is Haram, it means there is punishment attached to that act, whether in this life or the next or both depending on the severity of the act, unless Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chooses to forgive the person, which is never guaranteed in any situation, not matter what the circumstances. I'm guessing you are not familiar with my past posts on the subject. 

I have tried many times and in many different ways to bring up this point about the severity of the situation regarding lack of halal options for marriage amoung muslim men and women who attempt to stay within the halal. I bring it up because I don't see the issue being addressed or given the attention that is required by those who are in a position to change the situation for the better. The position of the ulema, the vast majority of them that I have discussed this with, basically give the same answer. 'Oh those brothers just need Sabr, they need to be patient'. And that's about it. I know why they do this. They are afraid that if they bring the full issue up from the minbar, it will cause them to be attacked by various groups who have a vested interest in the system staying the way it is. Of course you need Sabr, but that's not all of what you need. Sabr is necessary but not sufficient. That is why I brought up the issue with the employer paying his employees poverty wages. Yes, they need to have Sabr, but he also needs to pay them what is right, give them their Haqq. 

If you look back to the famous hadith which I have quoted many times, 'The origin of all munkhar (bad things that people hate) is disobedience of Allah, and the origin of disobedience of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Hubb of the Dunya, love of this lower life'. The community has fallen in love with these false ideas regarding marriage (which I stated previously in the thread). The love of these false ideas, which is the love of the dunya is pushing brothers and sisters in the direction of disobedience of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to the point that now this disobedience is so common, it isn't even remarkable anymore. I want brothers and sisters to recognize where the root of the issue is so that it can be addressed. 

[Anonymous-Male]

Walykum Salam. Yes completely agree. We are both saying the same thing but from a different aspect. You are mentioning the responsibility of those who have the ability to change status quo by making it possible for young people to get married soon, while I  was referring to the responsibility of the unmarried to be patient regardless of how long they have to wait till marriage becomes possible, regardless of how unjust the society is towards them in causing delay in their marriages. 

[AkhiraisReal]

interesting poll results and replies.

[Love4the14]

On 7/6/2020 at 8:00 AM, SoRoUsH said:

If you choose to be strict on the relationship front, she will go ahead and do it, just behind your back. You can be delusional and assume that it won't happen, but it will.

This is an over generalization- there are plenty of us who have self control and are able to avoid dating and wait until permanent marriage. You are basically saying that mutah should be allowed since apparently we are animals and can’t control ourselves . 
 

Why would you consider a father  delusional, strict or abusive if he expects his daughter to exercise self restraint and remain chaste until marriage? It’s a basic expectation of our faith - unless of course your child is completely sex crazed and influenced by the wrong people. 

I would never allow my kid to do it because a guy would prob just use her and move on to someone else.  The fact that it is ‘halal’ is not going to undo the emotional damage.