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In the Name of God بسم الله
AkhiraisReal

Would You Give Permission To Mutah For Your Daughter?

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Would You Give Permission To Mutah For Your Daughter?  

29 members have voted

  1. 1. Would You Give Permission To Mutah For Your Daughter?

    • Yes. I have a daughter
      1
    • Yes. If I had a daughter
      12
    • No. I have a daughter
      2
    • No. If I had a daughter
      14


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Guest boring!Monad
1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

Walaikum as salam. The only situation where permission is needed is if the woman is a virgin.

what is more concerning is the lazy attitude of not researching or remembering law or rules while making posts that are a constant in obsession with marriage or females, by single males. Nothing but immature fantasists which requires some interception of totalitarianism. This idea that if the religious law permits, then somehow the parents should be more then happy to allocate their property for some one else to use. Virginity seems to cloud rationality to the point that the epistemology of Akhlaq is lost.

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‘Ali b. Ibrahim – his father – Ibn Abi ‘Umayr – Hafs b. al-Bakhtari:

Abu ‘Abd Allah, peace be upon him, said concerning the man who marries the virgin in mut’ah: “It is makruh due to the blemish upon her family.”

Furu al Kafi

 

Allama Majlisi in Mir'at al uqul has graded this narration as hasan, and adds:

And it proves that mut’ah with a virgin is makruh in all situations

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nikah-al-mutah-zina-or-sunnah-toyib-olawuyi/5-practice-mutah

Edited by Mahdavist

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44 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Salam. Please vote as honestly as possible. You can post your reply with why you voted yes/no.

Not on this generation where desires derive them to insanity.

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Guest yes!Monad
Quote

Virginity seems to cloud rationality to the point that the epistemology of Akhlaq is lost

I should point out that although it sounds epic the intention was not to insue a flaw in not being able to satiate the desire or those who are confined due to economic or genetic conditions. Considering that the purpose of those violent emotions and urges felt at youth was to force the generations to be created. Again the clouded mind would procreate without actually consideration the said partner and the human race would generate. But with civility, those violent urges have to be upheld and controlled especially with knowledge and particularly after a certain age.

As I point out in other posts, it is to do with education. Those who fail at this, were poorly educated from youth regarding the trials and tribulation of the competitive struggle to survive.

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2 hours ago, Guest boring!Monad said:

what is more concerning is the lazy attitude of not researching or remembering law or rules while making posts that are a constant in obsession with marriage or females, by single males.

Which law and rules are you talking about?

Are you single or married? If you are married or have been married, then you would understand the importance of choosing the correct partner and the importance of discussing these matters as a community. For most of us unfortunately shiachat is the only community we have.

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Yes.

Unless you're delusional, obsessively strict, or an abusive father, you'd know that your daughter will be interested to date boys as she grows older, starting in her late teen years. And this would be a very healthy interest and behaviour on her end. 

If you choose to be strict on the relationship front, she will go ahead and do it, just behind your back. You can be delusional and assume that it won't happen, but it will. Except by being obsessively strict and abusive, you'd not only make it hard on yourself, you'd negatively affect the mental and emotional health of your daughter. 

Muta'a is a healthy, legal avenue for men and women, especially in their younger years, to deal with and understand their sexual and sensual desires and feelings. We don't live in a society/world where girls and boys can get permanently married, by their parents, at the ages 10 and 15 anymore. 

If you want your daughter to have respect for you, and to not commit religiously-illegal deeds behind your back, you must inform her about the Muta'a option and make her (and yourself) feel comfortable about it. 

You can always educate her about boys and their lust and their desires. You can inform her about consequences and etc. But you can't and shouldn't force her to forego a permitted religious option due to your own pride and other cultural (not religious) barriers. 

Give her the freedom that she needs to grow, mentally and emotionally. And always be kind to her and educate her to build and keep a healthy father-daughter relationship with her. 

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

We don't live in a society/world where girls and boys can get permanently married, by their parents, at the ages 10 and 15 anymore. 

True to an extent, but I think once they have reached the age of consent (14? 16? Depends on the country I suppose) we can explain to them that early religious marriage is highly recommended, that we will continue to support them financially as parents and that either they can choose a practicing Shia muslim spouse for themselves or we can help them to find someone. 

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What people fail to realise is that what is permissible takes into account a variety of different circumstances, including poverty, war, famine and so on.

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47 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

True to an extent, but I think once they have reached the age of consent (14? 16? Depends on the country I suppose) we can explain to them that early religious marriage is highly recommended, that we will continue to support them financially as parents and that either they can choose a practicing Shia muslim spouse for themselves or we can help them to find someone. 

We can. Sure.

But we should expect a 14 year old girl not wanting to get permanently married at that age. However, that same 14 year old girl is physically growing, and her body is going through changes, which make her interested in matters of sensuality and sexuality. So, although she wouldn't want to get permanently married, she'd want to understand her body and self more and better. 

She should know that Muta'a is a legal, religious option for her. Knowing she has a halal avenue, and knowing that her family is supportive of her natural feelings and tendencies, she can choose to do as she wishes, with confidence and her mental and emotional health in tact.

Edited by SoRoUsH

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I think the best option is permanent marriage (as soon as possible), but if the children are failing to control their urges and falling into harām then mutah marriage.

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1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

What people fail to realise is that what is permissible takes into account a variety of different circumstances, including poverty, war, famine and so on.

salam brother, could you elaborate what you meant by this.

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This and say slavery are always approached on these forums as if the only time in world history where decisions about them needed to be made was while eating a KFC takeout and sitting on front of the TV while watching Friends.

It may come as news to some, but most of us who visit this forum would be amongst the 0.01% of people in history according to how well off we are.

So while the thought of selling kids into slavery or giving daughters into mutah may well strike people here as the epitome of yuck, they have very likely been decisions that people have had to make over large parts of human history.

As people here have said there would be no reason at all for the father of a virgin girl to accede to a mutah involving intimacy. My rider would be to add in the phrase 'where there are no economic (or other) constraints'.

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30 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

giving daughters into mutah

Your view of Muta'a and its purpose seems to be outdated. No one "gives" their daughter to Muta'a. Your daughter is a human being, who can think and make decisions for herself. She has free will and a mind. And after she reaches puberty she'd become responsible and accountable for her own actions. You don't "give" her to Muta'a. You can only let her know whether you approve or not. She'll do as she wishes, either with your blessing or behind your back, either with confidence or in fear and anxiety.

Our daughters aren't animals or prisoners for us to cage them, metaphorically or physically.

As I said earlier, unless a father is delusional or abusive, they would know that their daughter will be interested in relationships with boys, in their teen years.

A father can either inform and equip his daughter with religious and legal means to understand and address her growing desires, or he can be duped by his delusions and pride and assume his daughter has no sensual or sexual desires and interests. The latter would only result in one's daughter pursuing her desires behind the father's back, full of fear and anxiety, which would be quite unhealthy for her. 

30 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

the father of a virgin girl to accede to a mutah involving intimacy

A father can educate her daughter, he can inform her of potential negative consequences of relationships, he can inform her of his hopes and wishes, but he can't be abusive and treat her like a prisoner or a slave, especially after the age of puberty. 

 

P.S. Muta'a isn't just about intercourse. Muta'a is required for a boy and a girl to have a private relationship, together, to get to know each other, to hold hands, to kiss, and to grow together. Without a Muta'a a boy and a girl cannot touch each other, can't be alone together, can't hold hands, and can't have a relationship. And again, only a delusional or an abusive father would assume that his daughter won't be interested in having private relationships with boys in their teen years. 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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@SoRoUsH 

The supposed fourteen or so year old that approaches her father for a Mutah relationship may also be under the influence of a hyper-sexualized society, wherein the glamorization of dating and having boyfriends at that particular age may cloud the newly pubescent girl to seek such relationships. 

The father in his state of mental clarity will be able to furthermore assess the time and climate of the situation and pass his judgement over the request of the girl, given the two societies a western and middle eastern society. 

Within the west it is clear that the young lady at the age of around fourteen has given a heightened importance to her sexual tendencies, due to the environmental influence of her western society and allowed those tendencies to arise and gain precedence, therefore mitigating the other means of ratiocination and spirituality that may be posited within her to aid in alleviating her inclinations.

 If the young girl feels that she needs to have such a relationship and is unable to remain patient for a couple years, there are most likely other issues which have been unaddressed or have been prime figures in her choice. For example pornographic addiction, emotional instability, distance from Allah and seeking to fill that distance through opposite sex relations, etc.

Of course the matter is much more nuanced and we as Muslims don’t simply give a thumbs up to our daughter when she says she likes Bobby and wants to date him, we are considerate that like her Bobby is also a young man since in the west there are statutory rape laws with consideration of the Romeo and Juliet laws. 

Now after taking a strong gist of the mental, emotional, social state of our daughter we then need to focus our attention on Bobby and see is this a person who will aid our daughter in getting closer to her religion or will he corrupt her mind and most likely break her heart?

Now of course Bobby is not the only eligible candidate and perhaps she may be interested in a young Muslim brother, in that case we still need to gather the similar amount of information pertaining to his emotional and spiritual health, is he a kid who is knowledgeable in his religious affairs and therefore sought to safeguard himself through the practice of Mutah, or is he someone who simply heard the word and saw it as an opportunity or loophole to go and date Muslim girls, as opposed to the usual American/Hispanic girls.

Now one also needs to be considerate of the social realm, yes my daughter is seeking this avenue, however, if I allow it will it hinder her chances in a permanent marriage? Perhaps her husband will be okay with it, but this may add complication with her family and reputation. Is her request to engage in this act a reason which trumps patience for a greater good, i.e marriage. If she is going to commit zina or other sins, then there are other aspects within her character which ought to be addressed, a couple of which were listed earlier. 

The subject isn’t as you seem to have put it, each man is aware of his own region, community, daughter, etc and he has been given the ability to choose based on many nuanced matters to allow his daughter to engage in the marriage or not, while of course positing an alternative such as lessons over self control/ Jihad al-nafs.

I would personally share my favorite books in regards to stoicism and afterwards draw a parallel between the words of those wise men over the struggle against the self with the Quran and the sayings of the Ahlulbayt. To broaden the spectrum and allow the message to appear as universal and clear as it can be, in order to highlight that all great men and women within society have resisted their temptations to achieve a greater good. 

Your inconsiderate judgement of a man being abusive and controlling is disingenuous, yes there are such cases, but in reality we are seeking to protect our daughters outside the realm of theory and instead be more pragmatic in our decisions.

Perhaps if there is a shift in paradigms and an alteration of the social scope within the east and the west, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon. In the end Tesla said it best when he said, “The ultimate purpose was the complete mastery of mind over the material world, the harnessing of human nature to human needs.” 

In reality most of us are just weak, we dull our perceptions and focus on these trivial matters of sex and dating, where instead we should seek God-consciousness and actualize ourselves through the use of the utility of sexuality as a strong force in strengthening our bodies and not controlling our minds and impairing ourselves. 

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@mohammad313ali

I agree, partially, with what you're saying. There are certainly many issues that a father must assess, when his daughter approaches him about Muta'a. 

The ultimate goal of a father should be the protection of his daughter, not the control of his daughter. A father shouldn't prioritize irreligious cultural barriers and his own pride over the health of his daughter. 

In addition, a father doesn't own his daughter. A daughter isn't a cattle or a slave. This implies that throughout the assessment process, the daughter must be closely involved. A father shouldn't make the decision for his daughter; he should make a decision with his daughter. 

When it comes to Muta'a, as I've said repeatedly in this forum, we're drowned in non-shia customs and beliefs. Our mental framework surrounding this issue isn't religious, it's cultural. We view sex and sexuality as the 19th century Victorian-era Puritans did, or as monastics do. We have this inner bias against lust, sexual desires, and intercourse, and sadly we, mistakenly, believe it's due to our religious teachings. 

If our daughter, in her teen years, approaches us about sex and Muta'a, we shouldn't panic, we shouldn't worry, we shouldn't approach the issue with an iron fist. We should recognize that she has reached a new phase in her growth and has a new set of desires and curiosities. Her desires and thoughts aren't "impure." 

We've come to assume that our religion has recommended early marriages, because that was the custom of those days. Many of us don't seem to associate that recommendation with the physical and emotional needs of our daughters and sons. 

In addition, when we think of "marriage", we think like non-shia. We think this religious recommendation (to marry our children at a young age) is only regarding "permanent" marriage. 

When our young daughter comes to us to talk about Muta'a, she's talking to us about marriage, "temporary" marriage, but marriage, nonetheless. She's behaving according to her Fitra. 

As fathers, we should acknowledge that. When we say, it's because the society is "hypersexualized", we're dismissing and ignoring physiological needs of young people; we're thinking like Puritans, like non-shia. "Hyper" is a relative term. Before you know what "Hyper" is, you need to define "Normal." 

It's not normal for our daughters and sons to not be curious about sexuality and intimacy. It is not normal for them to not want to have sex, when their bodies are urging them to do so. Their bodies are functioning according to their Fitra. It is not normal to stun their sexual growth by shunning the idea and making it a taboo. 

Young people are not "hypersexualized", they're normal and go through a sexual maturation phase. It is "we" that have been raised abnormally when it comes to thinking about and approaching sex and sexuality. Our young children are normal, it's we who have been conditioned to be "hyposexualized." 

A father has every right to protect his daughter, but protection is not the same as control. (When you think control, think of a metaphorical cage.)

We protect them by educating them. We protect them by inviting them to good and discouraging them from evil. There's nothing evil about Muta'a. And when we discourage them against what is permitted, and what is encouraged, we're pushing them to act against their Fitra, which can have long-term physical, mental, and emotional consequences. 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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Im not an expert but as far as I know it is actually haram to forbid ur daughter or son to marry or do mutah if they are on fear of falling into haram except if the is a very important reason. 

I am 20 years old and I grew up in a western society. And I think a lot of parents who grew up in islamic countries underestimate how hard it is to avoid haram. They say we dont understand sexuality bc we live in a hypersexualized society. But thats one more reason to allow ur children a halal alternative.

I have seen so many muslim boys and girls having sex behind their parents backs bc they have not got the option of an halal alternative. Most teens dont even know about mutah bc the parents view this topic as taboo and dont educate them. So whaere do the teens get their sexual education from? Thats right: school. 

Maby parents think they could stay halal so their kids can too. But they grew up in a time without internet, in a country where everyone wears decent clothing, where boys and girls were seperated in school etc.

But nowadays its different. U cant escape it or just try to concentrate on something else. Its everywhere. On billboards, on the train in school/uni, in TV, internet, even my Quran app showed me yesterday an add for female underwear!!!

God created us in a certain way. With certain desires. Parents should educate their kids about sex in a Islamic way and show them halal options to satisfy their desires. Otherwise they will force their children into kuffar practices and fail in my eyes as a Muslim parent.

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On 7/6/2020 at 12:14 PM, SoRoUsH said:

he should make a decision with his daughter. 

I am sure you are aware of the harded headed nature of teenagers, and those who simply want to follow their emotional inclinations.

Brother, again the issue may not necessarily be our daughters and their natural desires, but the way in which our current society is programmed, due to the misconceptions you have stated. Do not think of a scenario where she is living in a western society, but instead a middle eastern one.

I am from Iraq and I lived there for five years, simply saying the word Mu'tah is extremely taboo, let alone having a girl who has done it before. To them it is as if I gave up my daughter for the enjoyment of some teen, and in the rationale of the community any girl that has been entered, is undeserving of a virgin husband which the very high 90% proudly boast to be.

Until such improvements are made, I will protect the mental health and future of my daughter, and if she is desperate for marriage then she can get married permanently. Not everyone's family, society, and culture is the same. That is why this whole discussion is subjective and why Allah allowed the father to have the last say for his virgin daughter.  

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In answer to the OPs question, there wasn't an option for 'it depends'. That is how I would have answered the question. I will say that I don't have a daughter. I have three sons, all entering their teenage years (Your pity and sympathy are appreciated). So a parents answer to this, and especially a parent with a daughter who is entering her teenage years, is probably most relevant. When I say 'it depends', It depends on the daughter herself and also the environment she grew up in. If I had a daughter who was mature and responsible, who demonstrated a good knowledge of Islam for her age, had strong Iman and Taqwa, and was generally a responsible person and didn't make impulsive and irrational decisions, I would definitely consider it. Also, if she grew up in an environment that valued the religion and put sex and sexuality within a context and didn't encourage and glamorize anti-Islamic behavior in this area, then I would say 'yes', no problem. 

The problem is, at least in the West and probably most Islamic countries, that even if the girl herself was mature, knowledgeable, and had strong Iman and Taqwa, the environment she is living in would push her toward haram because of the glamorization of sex and sexuality outside of the Islamic context and norms. This is a huge factor that parents have to consider. Teenages and young adults have a very difficult time filtering out this general environmental influence and are greatly affected by it, in general, although there are exceptions. Even most adults are affected by it. If you are a clean person in a filthy environment, eventually you will become filthy unless you figure out a way to get away from and filter out the filth while still being able to live in the environment. It takes a while to figure out how to do that. 

So having said that, my answer would be 'In most cases 'No', but in some cases 'Yes', depending on those factors. But here is the difference between me and probably other parents. If I did say 'No' to mutah and I realized that there was an 'urgent need', in other words not being married was pushing her toward haram, I would go into overdrive mode to try and work with her to find a husband for permanent marriage as soon as possible. It would be months instead of years, maybe even weeks or days if we got lucky. The problem is saying 'No' then ignoring the issue for months or years and expecting your daughter to stay within the halal. That is not a realistic expectation. The parents should know that once your daughter (or son) passes this point where there is an 'urgent need', this is the point where they need to get married, full stop. You need to make it #1 priority to help them in the process. 

 

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Guest LiaIs

I think men should try to think from a girl’s PoV a bit more; what if she wants Mutah because she wants a relationship but doesn’t want/feels she isn’t prepared for a permanent marriage yet?

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14 minutes ago, Guest LiaIs said:

I think men should try to think from a girl’s PoV a bit more; what if she wants Mutah because she wants a relationship but doesn’t want/feels she isn’t prepared for a permanent marriage yet?

No, Fathers should think from an Islamic point of view, and assess what option is best to take in regards to the faith and religion of their daughter, not what option is more favored by her, because that is what she 'wants' or 'feels', rational judgements are not based upon such trivial matters.

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8 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

If I had a daughter who was mature and responsible, who demonstrated a good knowledge of Islam for her age, had strong Iman and Taqwa, and was generally a responsible person and didn't make impulsive and irrational decisions, I would definitely consider it.

I am no father, but I would think the opposite. Mutah is more suitable for the opposite of what you described. If someone is irrational, rebellious, impulsive and likely to find a boyfriend etc. they are the ones for whom mutah is safer and cleaner. If they are going to go in that direction anyway, then mutah is better. For the pious, mature and wise girl who isn't going to have relations with boys, it is better to wait.

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Guest LiaIs
41 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

No, Fathers should think from an Islamic point of view, and assess what option is best to take in regards to the faith and religion of their daughter, not what option is more favored by her, because that is what she 'wants' or 'feels', rational judgements are not based upon such trivial matters.

Yes, and from an Islamic point of view, Mutah is halal. Again, this is about the girl herself. The girl is the one who has strong desires, and she is the one who is asking for a way to relieve them. Why force her to a permanent marriage when she’s asking for Mutah BECAUSE she doesn’t want permanent marriage?

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On 7/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, Mahdavist said:

Walaikum as salam. The only situation where permission is needed is if the woman is a virgin.

Generally mut'ah is not performed with virgins. Some scholars have even said it's makrooh. 

Therefore in this context I don't see myself agreeing to it. In general I recommend permanent marriage soon after puberty. I would have no issue in agreeing to my daughter getting married (islamically) as soon as relationships are legally permissible (typically 16 in most countries these days).

So Mutah is preformed with virgins if the woman is shia right? So you mean mutah is normally preformed by shia divorced or widowed women? or with non virgins of people of the book?

Edited by Lion of Shia

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58 minutes ago, Lion of Shia said:

So Mutah is preformed with virgins if the woman is shia right?

Irrespective of whether the women is Shia or not in the case of the virgin girl there is a need to establish a form of common customs (Urf) with the family of the virgin girl. 

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8 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

So Mutah is preformed with virgins if the woman is shia right? So you mean mutah is normally preformed by shia divorced or widowed women? or with non virgins of people of the book?

The women can be a muslimah or from ahlul kitab. It is discouraged for female virgins, and permission from their guardian is required. 

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14 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I am no father, but I would think the opposite. Mutah is more suitable for the opposite of what you described. If someone is irrational, rebellious, impulsive and likely to find a boyfriend etc. they are the ones for whom mutah is safer and cleaner. If they are going to go in that direction anyway, then mutah is better. For the pious, mature and wise girl who isn't going to have relations with boys, it is better to wait.

My thinking was that if a girl is mature and responsible, knowledgeable, etc. she would be more likely to deal with the relationship in a healthy way. In other words, she would have realistic expectations, abide by the contract. She would know that if she gets into this type of relationship, it doesn't 'automatically' mean that this mutah is going to end up in zawaj tul nikah, permanent marriage, and if that doesn't happen, be able to handle this and move on with her life. She is also more likely to know what are her rights / responsibilities Islamically in this realtionship and know that before going into it and make a clear choice based on knowledge and then abide by the terms of the contract and keep it 100% halal. 

A girl who is not mature, responsible, knowledgeable, she is much more likely to expect that this mutah relationship is only a transition period into a permanent relationship and once the guy realizes what a great, wonderful person she is, he will fall head over heals in love with her and stay with her for the rest of her life. This might happen, and it does sometimes happen, but if you go by percentages, it is more likely not to happen. When it doesn't happen, the girl will become emotionally distraught, angry, frustrated, and may become cynical to the whole idea of marriage. This is the reaction of someone who is immature and is a victim of 'magical thinking', if I just believe that what appears as 'this' is really 'that', then it will magically become 'that'. You can't make a duck into an elephant by simply wishing it was so. If she really is a wonderful person, this is more likely to happen, but if she is not a wonderful person, but imagines herself to be that, then the ending of the relationship could completely devastate her. She may even end up doing kufr or becoming corrupt, over the long term by continuing to focus her emotions around this event. This is the hazard of magical thinking, lack of knowledge and lack of maturity when entering these sorts of highly emotional relationships. 

The simple fact of human nature is that most people have major character flaws which they are not willing to address or even acknowledge to themselves. This applies to young people as well as older people. I mean look at someone like Trump. His actions and inactions at the start of this pandemic have led to (at least) tens of thousands of deaths that would not have happened had he acted differently. He doesn't accept or acknowledge this despite literally mountains of evidence that this is the case. Most people are like mini versions of Trump, although Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has protected them because their flaws don't have extremely serious consequences, like in the case of Trump. What I consider mature is a girl(or a guy) who can look at themselves objectively, see their flaws, and try to work on and address them. Also, when something bad happens to them, they can look at the situation objectively and see where they went wrong, and try not to make the same mistakes if the situation happens again. I have seen girls in their early teens who have this quality of maturity, and I have seen old ladies in their 60's who don't have this quality. It isn't always a function of chronological age. 

Also, girls who are not mature, knowledgeable often fall victims to guys lying and promising to be with them 'forever' when they have no intention of doing that. 

A girl who is knowledgeable, mature, etc is a 'second shield' against these type of lying dishonest guys. If they happen to somehow make it past the first shield, the father hopefully, they will not make it past the second shield, the girl herself. Whereas in the first case, if they happen to convince the father, or convince the girl to go behind her father's back, he is 'home free'.

Edited by Abu Hadi

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5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

The women can be a muslimah or from ahlul kitab. It is discouraged for female virgins, and permission from their guardian is required. 

so the non virgin shia ,has to be either divorced or widowed or from a previous one mutah/nikah right, and not zina

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