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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ejaz

Can we (or infallibles (عليه السلام)) force polytheists (mushriks) to convert by the sword?

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:salam:
An Enlightening Commentary into the Light of the Holy Qur'an says about Solomon’s threat to the Queen of Sheba

Quote

Solomon became inconvenient with this problem, and we know that idolatry is not something that the divine religion remains silent for it, or bears the idol worshippers as a religious minority. By applying force, he (عليه السلام) may destroy the idol temples, if necessary, and vanishes idolatry and the polytheistic creed.

The abovementioned explanation makes it also clear that Solomon’s threat does not contrast with the principle of 

“There is no compulsion in religion”,5

because idolatry is not a religion, but it is a superstition and deviation

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-13/section-3-solomon-and-queen-sheba

Tafsir al Mizan says about La ikraha fiddeen:

Quote

We have already clarified, while writing the commentary on the verses of fighting, that the fighting ordained by Islam is not for the purpose of material advancement nor for spreading the religion by force. It was ordained only for reviving the truth and defending the most precious treasure of nature — the faith of monotheism. Where monotheism is accepted by the people — even if they remain Jew or Christian — Islam does not fight with them. Therefore, the objection arises from clouded thinking.

Can we (or infallibles (عليه السلام)) force polytheists (mushriks) to convert by the sword?

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10 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Can we

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWIMJtxFNtxXqBP2YH00t

10 hours ago, Ejaz said:

or infallibles(عليه السلام)

the view is different now.

Acceptance of 'faith' is beyond compulsion. 'Faith' has to be described first in its proper context. Is submission out of fear of the sword or is it out of the promise of bounteous living whilst within there's just hollow? 

Think like taking it from man with a sword then another with a stronger metal make or double edged sword coercing to submit to another disputing the former...

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There's this maxim from the 7th Imam(عليه السلام) about 'receiving guidance from the source', so let's say during the times of the Prophet(s) the Muslims partook in spreading of the din through the sword & those conquered embraced... 

For God to be worshipped He(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has to manifest Himself(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) thus it becoming obligatory to worship Him(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

in that minor jihad, the invitation was to the one of the paths that leads to The Path.

In The Path there's no dictating human whimps or desires for it's an already established Path. 

When asking to be on The Path then you can't say you're on The Path, then you can't say you coerced or guided by whatever means anyone & say that one is on The Path.

once you claim such it is easy to prove it as fake like...

"Oh Muhammad, do not say you... when you"

The understanding of that is through His(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mercy.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Can we (or infallibles (عليه السلام)) force polytheists (mushriks) to convert by the sword?

Just to add to the tafasir, this is what the Study Quran says About 2:256:

Quote

According to some sources this verse refers specifically to the People of the Book or to anyone from whom one can take the jizya (see 9:29c; IK, R). Indeed, many argue that the import of this verse is not absolute, since the Prophet, in his campaign and ultimate victory against the idolatrous Arabs, did not give them the option of remaining idolaters or paying the jizyah (IK, T ). The Arabs were in fact forced to abandon idol worship, although some disagree over whether they could become Jews and Christians and fall under the protected status of There is no coercion in religion (R). This position would entail, in effect, that among a certain group of religions recognized by Islam (including Judaism, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism), there is no coercion in religion .

 

Is this true? If so, why and how were they forced? My knowledge is weak but I remember rasulullah saw forgiving the idolaters (not forcing them to convert).

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3 hours ago, Ejaz said:

but I remember rasulullah saw forgiving the idolaters (not forcing them to convert).

why did he(s) forgive them?

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19 hours ago, Mzwakhe said:

Oh Muhammad, do not say you... when you..." 8:17

It is Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is telling Nabi Muhammad(s) this. To understand what is being related somehow the recognition of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 'has to be achieved' for firstly who is Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & who is Muhammad(s)...

to not say you didn't do whilst having done so is different from saying you did what you didn't do & that is possible through the lack of that recognition.

Acceptance of such is the sealing of the heart for it can't lie to itself it can only fool itself whilst knowing & hoping it is so whilst it ain't.

It is a complex subject & alhamdulillah, always.

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On 7/2/2020 at 5:28 PM, Ejaz said:

Can we (or infallibles (عليه السلام)) force polytheists (mushriks) to convert by the sword?

Salam as I know only Imam Mahdi (aj)  & his companions can do it after his reappearance because after his reappearance  he will bring undeniable truth for each person & everyone  will have access to any source so nobody would have excuse that he  wasn't aware of truth that if after bringing all undeniable truth anybody still denies  the truth then he will punish by sword.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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16 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam as I know only Imam Mahdi (aj)  & his companions can do it after his reappearance because after his reappearance  he will bring undeniable truth for each person & everyone  will have access to any source so nobody would have excuse that he  wasn't aware of truth that if after bringing all undeniable truth anybody still denies  the truth then he will punish by sword.

Ayat 2:256

The lmam's job title is Hojattallah. He announces what he is told will happen, then Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). brings  it about. This is how everyone will be slowly convinced.

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20 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Just to add to the tafasir, this is what the Study Quran says About 2:256:

Is this true? If so, why and how were they forced? My knowledge is weak but I remember rasulullah saw forgiving the idolaters (not forcing them to convert).

Cf. Ayat 9:80

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

This is how everyone will be slowly convinced.

Anyway anybody that rejects clear proof after his reappearance  then will face the death by sword but pace of convincing for any person will be different.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Ayat 2:256

The lmam's job title is Hojattallah. He announces what he is told will happen, then Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). brings  it about. This is how everyone will be slowly convinced.

Luke 19:

1While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

14“But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

15“He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16“The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

17“ ‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

18“The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

19“His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

20“Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

22“His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24“Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

25“ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26“He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”

 

this parable is reference to Jesus, he is speaking about himself in a parable. Trinitarians staunchly and arrogantly deny to show Islam is “violent” and their religion is about “love and peace”.

12He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return.

”a man of noble birth...”

Was Jesus born of a noble birth ? 

Thru God’s decree Mary got pregnant, Mary is from a prophetic line and she gave birth to jesus who is a prophet of God and Jesus birth was a miracle. That’s as noble as you can get.

”went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return.”

that country is Israel. 

13Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Isho and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

“You have said so,” Isho replied.

 

29The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 30and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.

 jesus was the king of the Jews. So it’s crystal clear that this parable is about jesus. 

In short the arrogant will be killed. 

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On 7/2/2020 at 5:58 PM, Ejaz said:

:salam:
An Enlightening Commentary into the Light of the Holy Qur'an says about Solomon’s threat to the Queen of Sheba

Tafsir al Mizan says about La ikraha fiddeen:

Can we (or infallibles (عليه السلام)) force polytheists (mushriks) to convert by the sword?

The problem of unbelief is that it offers no system for well-being of human kind. Secondly, there may be various reasons for Prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) to threat Queen of Sheiba:

1. There might be living adherents of Prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) in the country of Queen of Sheiba who might be treated unjustly;

2. It might be will of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) to convert whole country of Queen Sheiba into monotheism and end social evils of such country which might be affecting the inhabitants of Prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) culturally.

3. Even if Allah (عزّ وجلّ) wants to convert a whole nation into Islam, He (عزّ وجلّ) shows miracles to suffice their queries, and if after that people refuse than its not forcing islam rather eliminating obstinacy. 

4. Non of us here in our countries have authority like Peophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) so we cannot adopt such policy unless there is someone who shows miracles like Prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام). So, until such person comes among us, he (عليه السلام) would only have authority like that of Prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) and no one else.

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Anyway anybody that rejects clear proof after his reappearance  then will face the death by sword but pace of convincing for any person will be different.

Salam Bro,

There is only so much we can know beforehand. One Shi'a man l know said that even the Imam does not know what and how anthing will happen. He comes from family where the Relgion is taken seriously and told me once his cousin works in Sistani's office; and what this bro told me also conforms with Deutero-lsaiah.

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7 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

2. It might be will of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) to convert whole country

Examine the sequence of the Ayats 27: 17 then 37 then 42.

The "threat" clearly got the Queen's attention which, inshallah, led to what is revealed in Ayat 27:42.

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54 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Examine the sequence of the Ayats 27: 17 then 37 then 42.

The "threat" clearly got the Queen's attention which, inshallah, led to what is revealed in Ayat 27:42.

If something is proved in a Court of law against a defendant, can he escape justice? 

Only a Prophet or Imam can threat or back away from threatening just as like all prophets threatened and proceeded with what they were threatened except Prophet (PBUHHP). 

No one else can threat bro because no one else has authority of miracles. So this does not apply to ordinary muslims. 

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1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

If something is proved in a Court of law against a defendant, can he escape justice? 

Only a Prophet or Imam can threat or back away from threatening just as like all prophets threatened and proceeded with what they were threatened except Prophet (PBUHHP). 

No one else can threat bro because no one else has authority of miracles. So this does not apply to ordinary muslims. 

@hasanhh

We can warn and don't have right over a creation to force it to change its belief. But,  Allah (عزّ وجلّ) through his vicegerents after completing His responsibility through miracles and admonitions can issue a threat to accept the truthfulness or get destroyed in which there is no wrong.

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4 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

@hasanhh

We can warn and don't have right over a creation to force it to change its belief. But,  Allah (عزّ وجلّ) through his vicegerents after completing His responsibility through miracles and admonitions can issue a threat to accept the truthfulness or get destroyed in which there is no wrong.

Salaam bro,

Will the ulema who believe I wilayat al Faqih agree with you?

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On 7/2/2020 at 8:58 AM, Ejaz said:

:salam:
An Enlightening Commentary into the Light of the Holy Qur'an says about Solomon’s threat to the Queen of Sheba

Tafsir al Mizan says about La ikraha fiddeen:

Can we (or infallibles (عليه السلام)) force polytheists (mushriks) to convert by the sword?

You mention the word “polytheist” but this is not an accurate translation for “mushrik”. Please first read this post of mine from another thread:
 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 7/2/2020 at 8:58 AM, Ejaz said:

:salam:
An Enlightening Commentary into the Light of the Holy Qur'an says about Solomon’s threat to the Queen of Sheba

Tafsir al Mizan says about La ikraha fiddeen:

Can we (or infallibles (عليه السلام)) force polytheists (mushriks) to convert by the sword?

I remember when I was in my late teens reading this from Ayatollah Makarim Shirazi...

felt like throwing up afterwords (because it didn’t sit too well with me):

 

OFFENSIVE (NON-DEFENSIVE) JIHAD    

“Allah has prescribed a set of orders and chalked out programmes for the development, freedom, comfort, happiness and prosperity of man, and has entrusted unto His prophets the responsibility of communicating these to the people. Now, if an individual or a group of individuals regard the communication of these orders detrimental to their personal lowly interests and endeavour to obstruct the prophets in fulfilling their divine responsibilities, the prophets possess the right to remove the obstructions lying in their path, initially by utilizing peaceful means and if not possible, then by use of force, in order to acquire for themselves the freedom to propagate (the commandments of Allah).
In other words, in every society, people have the right to listen to those who invite them towards the path of Truth, and possess freedom to accept their invitation. But if some individuals deprive them of their legitimate right and inhibit them from hearing the truth and becoming freed from their mental and social captivity and slavery, the followers of these divine programmes possess the right to utilize every means at their disposal in order to achieve this freedom. It is here that the necessity of the INITIATING JIHAD in Islam and other divine religions becomes manifest.
Similarly, if some individuals were to compel the believers to revert to their original religion, every means could be employed for repelling such compulsions too.”

reference: pg 37-38 of 180 Questions

http://www.byislam.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/180-Questions-Enquiries-About-Islam-Volume-One-The-Practical-Laws.pdf


So, what can we say about this?

if you ever come across the “HYPE” that in Islam there is no such thing as offensive Jihad and that jihad is always defensive, just know that this is nothing but modern apologetical nonsense by Muslims who are reacting to Islamophobia.

Yes, there is offensive Jihad! But who, if at all, was it waged on?  And for what purpose? 
 

It is never for subjugating people of for forcing people to follow the Truth.  The first Muslims who bore the persecution in Mecca we’re doing Jihad!  They had to initiate the dialogue of Oneness knowing what it would entail. 
 

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

They had to initiate the dialogue of Oneness knowing what it would entail

You mean offensive jihad of the tongue is permissible against polytheists but not force / aggression?

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5 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Salaam bro,

Will the ulema who believe I wilayat al Faqih agree with you?

I think Wilayat-e-Faqih are more cognizant than me in affairs of religion and I have learnt this through men like them who are transmitters of Quran and Hadith from the day Imam-e-Zamana (عليه السلام) went into occultaion till today.

Do you disagree that a liar who is shown truth and proved in Court of law can escape from the sin of his obstinacy?  If you don't then Wilayah-e-Faqih don't disagree as well. 

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16 hours ago, hasanhh said:

the Imam does not know what and how anthing will happen.

Salam nobody even Imam Mahdi (aj) doesn't know when he will reappear but he has clear agenda for after his reappearance that a brief of it explained in narrations but it depens on people that accept his invite to Islam by their will or force but as other Imams he prefers kindness & giving undeniable proof about his claim but anyone that rejects his kind request will face hard consequence.

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10 hours ago, Ejaz said:

You mean offensive jihad of the tongue is permissible against polytheists but not force / aggression?

How can the message of Oneness be “forced”? Wouldn’t this be self-defeating?  Obviously one first sends a message to the other side, a message of invitation.  The other side either takes it as a joke, invites dialogue and then sees a great number of their people accepting the message.  They then feel threatened that all their people will abandon their old ways. This is where the misguided  will start to use physical force and aggression.  
so to start off using force is not necessary (at least in most cases).  The only time it is necessary is if the other side is not at all open to dialogue and is oppressing their own people.  The only way now is to threaten them with an offensive battle saying something like, “you better open the doors to dialogue for your people or else we will break them open “sort of thing””.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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19 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

How can the message of Oneness be “forced”? Wouldn’t this be self-defeating?  Obviously one first sends a message to the other side, a message of invitation.  The other side either takes it as a joke, invites dialogue and then sees a great number of their people accepting the message.  They then feel threatened that all their people will abandon their old ways. This is where the misguided  will start to use physical force and aggression.  
so to start off using force is not necessary (at least in most cases).  The only time it is necessary is if the other side is not at all open to dialogue and is oppressing their own people.  The only way now is to threaten them with an offensive battle saying something like, “you better open the doors to dialogue for your people or else we will break them open “sort of thing””.  

Ah yes, I see what you mean. The threatening part would make more sense if an infallible (عليه السلام) did it.

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16 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Ah yes, I see what you mean. The threatening part would make more sense if an infallible (عليه السلام) did it.i

No.  Not just a prophet or an Imam.  But I would say it made more sense in the past where knowledge could be prevented and where people are not allowed to practice.  Nowadays knowledge is easily accessible.  If anyone wants to know about God and Oneness it is readily available online and in libraries (unless one lives in a dictatorial regime like N.Korea and China.

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Under and Islamic government weither sunni or Shia only four religions are permitted. Islam, Christianity, Judaism and sometimes Zoroastrism. Polytheism is not among ahl hul Kitab. So that answer your question. 

Wrong.  Any religion of God and from God that has a (scripture) whether in the form of a Book or the form of sayings passed down from  a Prophet (Man of God) and that is centered on the Principle of Oneness / or even Non-Duality is Ahlul Kitab.

so, that includes A LOT of religions, like;

Buddhism, Taoism, Sanatana Dharma (crudely referred to as “Hinduism”), Religion of the Native Americans, and possibly others...

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Wrong.  Any religion of God and from God that has a (scripture) whether in the form of a Book or the form of sayings passed down from  a Prophet (Man of God) and that is centered on the Principle of Oneness / or even Non-Duality is Ahlul Kitab.

so, that includes A LOT of religions, like;

Buddhism, Taoism, Sanatana Dharma (crudely referred to as “Hinduism”), Religion of the Native Americans, and possibly others...

This is not what sunni and Shia theologians think (maybe maliki think that about polytheists but I am not even sure). 

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

that accept his invite to Islam

l disagree that this will be a matter of invitation.

Review Ayats 26:4 and 41:53.

Everyone up to the time of Dajjal -cursed be him- be convnced in Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). and His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Sentencing Day.

Yet, that does not mean everyone will behave themselves. Ayat 47:9. Ayats consistent with this are 10:82, 23:70 and 47:20.

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7 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

This is not what sunni and Shia theologians think (maybe maliki think that about polytheists but I am not even sure). 

First of all, there is no Quranic Arabic word for "polytheism" in the Quran.  (at least not that I am aware of).  Mind showing me?  (and please don't tell me you have in mind the Arabic word "shirk" and "mushrik".  Because that isn't polytheism.  

Secondly, which "religions" would you classify under "polytheism"?  Do you imagine some of them in the list I have given you in the previous post are?  Well none of them are.  FYI.  

Thirdly, you are unaware of Islamic History especially of the meetings between Hindus and Muslims in India and the interactions between Muslims and Confucians in China and other interactions between Muslims and Buddhists.   

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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8 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

This is not what sunni and Shia theologians think (maybe maliki think that about polytheists but I am not even sure). 

it's not about the thoughts of the 'theologians', their thoughts/opinions are not required in a complete matter.

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Thirdly, you are unaware of Islamic History especially of the meetings between Hindus and Muslims in India and the interactions between Muslims and Confucians in China and other interactions between Muslims and Buddhists.   

Salam meeting with them doesn't  mean recognizing them as Ahlul kitab that  clearly defined in holy Quran but muslims tried to do missionary works among them by interaction with them also they could travel as Dhimmis to Islamic countries to search for truth but they are not allow to spread their belief in an Islamic country.

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

they are not allow to spread their belief in an Islamic country.

Salam is there any punishment if they (Dhimmi) spread their belief?

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