Zaidi understanding of first three caliphs

[MuhammadHasanAlBritani]

Sunni here, interested in what the Zaidi understanding of Shaykhayn (Abu Bakr Radiyallahu An and Umar Radiyallahy An) and Uthman Radiyallahu An.

Is it true that you prohibit yourselves from cursing them?

Do you view them as muslims? Do you think they were sinful or not?

Also, as with Ahlus Sunnah, do you agree with us that Imam Ali KarramAllahu Wajhu loved/respected them?

I am interested as I have read that the Zaidis are more moderate Shia, I'm simply interested to see how far this moderation goes.

Also, unrelated question, is it true that you do not do Taqiyyah in the manner of the Shia?

[Ali bin Hussein]

Zaidi don't curse sahaba or wives (not do 12er scholars)

Hmm. Zaidi are very broad in there beleif. 

One side  say the Caliphs were definitely disobedient but remain quite on the topic 

Most say they are Muslim but we're wrong but  show respect and restraint when talking about them. And acknowledge the great blessing of being able to meet the Prophet

The 3 rd group say the prophet Muhammad advice or implied Imam.Ali succession so the caliphs were not sinning by going against it.

Ulitimatly Zaidi scholars use imam Ali as a guide to judge sahaba. 

Imam Ali showed respect and silence on some issues, and openly critised other issues. 

You can say he had more issues with Uthman then Hz Abu bakar and then Hz Umar

I can't say if there was love as that's very Internal and subjective.

But I can say there was a great mutual respect between Imam Ali and Hz Umar. 

As far as I know no scholars say they are kaffir.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Warilla

[Ibn Murtuz]

@Warilla Do you belong to particular Zaidi sect?

[Ali bin Hussein]

2 hours ago, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

.

Also, unrelated question, is it true that you do not do Taqiyyah in the manner of the Shia?

Taqqiya is permissible under great threat but is not a praiseworthy action.

Imams and scholar are there to guide so do not do taqqiya

We highly value jihad and see it as a duty and a blessing.

[Ali bin Hussein]

36 minutes ago, Rauf Murtuzov said:

@Warilla Do you belong to particular Zaidi sect?

I follow Hadawi madhab strictly in fiqh and  broadly in theology

Theological I accept the explicit appointment of Imam Ali.

But I don't include all of their aqeeda within my own

Eg I believe the zaidi concept of imamat but don't include it as aqeeda. I accept both arguments Qur'an is created and uncreated etc.

My aqeeda is very basic

4:136 O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray

And I'm more Asharite leaning then mutazalite.

A bit confusing but I believe you can't blindly follow anyone with regards to aqeeda and must come to your own understanding.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Warilla

[MuhammadHasanAlBritani]

3 hours ago, Warilla said:

Zaidi don't curse sahaba or wives (not do 12er scholars)

Hmm. Zaidi are very broad in there beleif. 

One side  say the Caliphs were definitely disobedient but remain quite on the topic 

Most say they are Muslim but we're wrong but  show respect and restraint when talking about them. And acknowledge the great blessing of being able to meet the Prophet

The 3 rd group say the prophet Muhammad advice or implied Imam.Ali succession so the caliphs were not sinning by going against it.

Ulitimatly Zaidi scholars use imam Ali as a guide to judge sahaba. 

Imam Ali showed respect and silence on some issues, and openly critised other issues. 

You can say he had more issues with Uthman then Hz Abu bakar and then Hz Umar

I can't say if there was love as that's very Internal and subjective.

But I can say there was a great mutual respect between Imam Ali and Hz Umar. 

As far as I know no scholars say they are kaffir.

Your sect really interests me in that you seem far less extreme from a Sunni perspective than the Jafaris or Ismailis. I think I can confidently say that you are the closest to Ahlus Sunnah. Also some of our Ulama, notably the fuqahah, make takfir of anyone who curses the Sahabah (e.g. Imam Malik Rahimullah Alay). Of course this is not the actual opinion you take as a Sunni as we follow the more lenient opinion of the theologians, who do not make takfir, but I just find it interesting to note that even according to our fuqahah it seems you would be confidently identified as muslims (albeit muslims who have strayed from the path of the Sahabah Radiyallahy Anhum).

I would contest you however in your saying that the twelvers do not curse the Sahaba, I have heard myself a twelver say something like "Lanat Allah Alay" after the name of one the blessed Sahabah. I am sure the majority don't but some (likely extremists) do. Perhaps it is the ones that call themselves, "Sistanis", who do this.

Anyway sorry to pepper you with questions but I am really interested on the Zaidi perspective on some other topics.

1. Out of interest what is your view on Qadar (the divine decree of Allah/predestination)?

2. Do you believe you will see Allah on Yawm al-Qiyamah?

3. Do you affirm that the Quran is uncreated?

4. I understand Shia Twelver Akhbaris hold the doctrine of "Tahreef" when it comes to the Quran. Twelver Usulis, whilst not holding the position themselves, tolerate such an idea and do not declare it kufr. What is the Zaidi perspective on the presevation of the Quran? Have any of your scholars held such views? Would you regard such a view as Kufr or not?

5. What is the status of your imams compared to the prophets alayhim salam? I understand that twelvers would consider their imams superior to the prophets (but not our messenger salallahu alayhi wa salam), do you hold the same view or not?

6. Do you affirm all of the five pillars of Islam, all of the six pillars of iman, do you believe in Ihsan and do you believe that there are signs of hour?

The five pillars of Islam are:

1. Shahadah
2. Salah
3. Zakat
4. Sawm
5. Hajj

The six pillars of Iman are to believe in:

1. Allah
2. His Angels
3. His Books (e.g. the Quran, Tawrah, Zaboor and Injil, including at least anything else mentioned in the Quran e.g. Suhuf Ibrahim)
4. His Messengers (and prophets that are mentioned in the Quran)
5. Yawm al-Qiyamah/the resurrection (including eternal heaven/hell)
6. The Qadar of Allah (already asked you about this specifically above)

Ihsan is:

• To worship Allah as if you are seeing him, and if you don't see him then to worship him knowing he is seeing you.

7. What hadith collections do you rely on (e.g. the Sunni collections, the Shia collections or do you have your own)?

8. Finally what is generally the status of your imams (may Allah bless all of them up to and including Imam Zayd Rahimullah Alay and any others who were on firm belief)? Do you consider them to be fallible or infallible? What is their exact role according to you? How do you differ from the twelvers in this?

By the way, the above questions are open to all Zaidi brothers, please feel free to answer according to you knowledge/understanding.

[MuhammadHasanAlBritani]

Ahh I forgot to ask one more question: What is the Zaidi opinion on Muawiya Radiyallahu An?

[Ali bin Hussein]

Alot of questions brother. I'll try to answer them all inshallah

7 hours ago, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

Ahh I forgot to ask one more question: What is the Zaidi opinion on Muawiya Radiyallahu An?

This I can answer very quickly. He is a cursed man from a cursed lineage with a cursed progeny.

Since he has passed away the evidence of his whole life in my opinion shows he is a munafiq.

Allah knows best.

 

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

On 6/30/2020 at 7:50 PM, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

Do you affirm that the Quran is uncreated?

The Quran is created, If the Quran is uncreated than it is as old as Allah (Allah doesn't have age).

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

If the Quran is uncreated than it is as old as Allah (Allah doesn't have age).

Salam Holy Quran neither  created nor it is old it's just word of Allah these two ideas about holy Quran just introduced at time Abbasid king the Mamun that he believed  to creation of holy Quran because of favoring Mutazila by him & idea being old of holy Quran introduced by Jews to 4 sunni school of thoughts to oppose Mamun's forced idea to them ,that Imam Reza (عليه السلام) in response of question of Shias about that said just take it as word & miracle of Allah to read & apply it in your life & refrain from these two ideas.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ibn Murtuz]

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Holy Quran neither  created nor it is old it's just word of Allah these two ideas about holy Quran just introduced at time Abbasid king the Mamun that he believed  to creation of holy Quran because of favoring Mutazila by him & idea being old of holy Quran introduced by Jews to 4 sunni school of thoughts to oppose Mamun's forced idea to them ,that Imam Reza (عليه السلام) in response of question of Shias about that said just take it as word & miracle of Allah to read & apply it in your life & refrain from these two ideas.

Salam do you believe Quran is neither created or uncreated - or it is (whether created or uncreated) concealed to humans now?

Edited July 6, 2020 by Rauf Murtuzov

[Ashvazdanghe]

25 minutes ago, Rauf Murtuzov said:

r it is concealed to humans now

It's word of Allah that we must follow it under supervision of infallible Imam from progeny prophet  Muhammad (pbu) of our time in simple follow  Quran & Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) .

Edited July 6, 2020 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

On 6/30/2020 at 7:51 PM, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

Ahh I forgot to ask one more question: What is the Zaidi opinion on Muawiya Radiyallahu An?

Why exactly do you think Muawiya was a good person?

@MuhammadHasanAlBritani

Edited July 13, 2020 by Ansur Shiat Ali

[power]

On 7/6/2020 at 12:16 AM, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

The Quran is created, 

This is a accepted view from Shia point of view. Also Imam Bukhari Sunni scholar also accepts this view. 

[power]

Does anyone have any idea what started this debate whether the Quran was created or not? 

Edited July 16, 2020 by power

[Guest Ashtar]

On 7/1/2020 at 1:45 AM, Warilla said:

I follow Hadawi madhab strictly in fiqh and  broadly in theology

Theological I accept the explicit appointment of Imam Ali.

But I don't include all of their aqeeda within my own

Eg I believe the zaidi concept of imamat but don't include it as aqeeda. I accept both arguments Qur'an is created and uncreated etc.

My aqeeda is very basic

4:136 O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray

And I'm more Asharite leaning then mutazalite.

A bit confusing but I believe you can't blindly follow anyone with regards to aqeeda and must come to your own understanding.

I converted to the zaydi madhhab recently. In fiqh im relying on musnad zayd and find the hanafi fiqh very much similar to it. Also i read some past zaydi imams and scholars following hanafi fiqh. Are there still some hanafis among zaydis?

[gharib570]

On 6/30/2020 at 6:37 PM, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

Sunni here, interested in what the Zaidi understanding of Shaykhayn (Abu Bakr Radiyallahu An and Umar Radiyallahy An) and Uthman Radiyallahu An.

Is it true that you prohibit yourselves from cursing them?

Do you view them as muslims? Do you think they were sinful or not?

Also, as with Ahlus Sunnah, do you agree with us that Imam Ali KarramAllahu Wajhu loved/respected them?

I am interested as I have read that the Zaidis are more moderate Shia, I'm simply interested to see how far this moderation goes.

Also, unrelated question, is it true that you do not do Taqiyyah in the manner of the Shia?

Salaam, I am Zaydi.

Nearly all Zaydis prohibit cursing the caliphs but have no problem criticising their actions, after all they did disobey the prophet (s) by opposing Imam 'Ali and attained  the caliphate in a very dubious manner. Abu Bakr then passed it to Umar (who "elected" Abu Bakr at Saqifah) with little consultation which is telling.

As Imam Ali says in Sermon 3 in the Nahj: "No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves"

Zaydis generally accept that Imam 'Ali was threatened and coerced to pledge allegience, this fact is recorded in many history books and covered in hadiths. We practice something called 'tawaqquf' [reservation] towards the caliphs where we do not praise or curse them and leave the final decision to Allah.

The water is muddied a bit by an alleged hadith that exists from Zayd ibn Ali where he apparently refused to curse the caliphs. For this he was apparently deserted by the people who became Twelvers and this is how they received the title rejectors "Rafida". The Twelvers also have an opposite hadith saying that Zayd actually encouraged the people to curse the caliphs but they did not, so he called them "Batris" (reducers). Zaydi accounts however have no recollection of this apparent event discussed by the Sunnis and Twelvers so this is likely an excuse made up by those who refused to support Zayd ibn Ali (عليه السلام). I just thought I would clear this up as you hear this a lot and it is a big misconception that Zaydis are somehow Sunni.

We see the caliphs as Muslims however Zaydi aqidah believe in the concept of 'kufr ni'ma' (rejection of blessings) which is a state in between belief (al-iman) and theological disbelief (al-kufr). For example, a Muslim who fails to pray without any good reason and is corrupt could have eternal punishment for this. Zaydis do not agree with the Sunnis and Twelvers that every Muslim will eventually goto heaven and think this is a Jewish belief which crept into Islam (see the Quran where the Jews say: The fire will only touch us for a number of days). Remember, iman is Islam coupled with action. Besides, is it logical that terrible people like ISIS get a free ticket into paradise just because they uttered a line, which likely their parents told them to utter?

With regards to the caliphs we do not know the final outcome with Allah for their overthrowing of Imam 'Ali for the caliphate - we leave it for God to decide. We however have no problem cursing Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan, Amr ibn Al As and Yazid as we have proofs of Imam 'Ali doing this plenty of times. They fought the Imam of time (Imam 'Ali), his followers and fabricated many hadiths to confuse the Muslims. Muawiyah's crimes are obvious and you can read them here.

Likewise, we do acknowledge their (the caliphs) error and how it created difficulties later on for the prophetic household.

In terms of moderation, we are happy to quote from Sunni sources if they agree with the general madhab. We do not believe in infallibility for imams and believe there can be more than 1 imam in different regions. We believe that an imam should be from the prophetic household as per the massively transmitted thaqalayn hadith and that the imamate belongs to a pious just sayyid from the lineage of Hasan or Husayn may Allah be pleased with them. If there is no (just) imam how can the community function or uphold justice? This is one of the biggest problems in the Muslim world at the moment and has been in the past when people have accepted tyrant leaders. It is important to note that none of the early imams considered themselves "Zaydis" this term came in later own to differentiate us from Twelvers and Ismailis etc. A key part in Zaydism (and Shism in general) is believing that one can oppose a corrupt Muslim leader. For example, Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) fought against Yazid as he was openly corrupt and a transgressor (fasiq) despite him being the Muslim "caliph".

We see Twelverism as a later invention with Biblical undertones that was projected back to the imams of the ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام). We do not reject imams like Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) or Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), we instead view them as Imams of Knowledge, whereas an Imam which rises (Qa'im) is the true Imam which is to be acknowledged and obeyed. We believe that the ideas like occultation of the Qa'im were implanted by the Abbasids who were competing with the Ghulut Shia power, with whom they used to bring down the Umayyads. If you do your research, you will find many messianic hadiths by the Abbasids who said they would rule until they passed the rule onto Isa (عليه السلام) etc. In the same light we see Sunni Islam as an Umayyad implant which demands respect companions like Muawiyah who opposed and fought Imam 'Ali and his descendents..

In the earliest sources Mahdi or Qa'im just meant a riser and many of the prophetic household did rise to the occasion as we all know. It concept developed amongst the ghulat Shia fully which was then applied to the Tweltfh imam when he did not appear or rise. Of course, there are many hadiths that state otherwise but there are many hadiths on the virtues of the shaikayn which Shia have no problem rejecting, as they were politically motivated. For Zaydi we believe it is unfair that Allah would demand us to follow an unreachable imam and believe that it negates divine justice (al-adalat). It is like the prophet (s) asking people to pray like him but never showing them or giving them a chance to watch him pray.

Most Zaydis believe there will be a Mahdi at the end of time however my own personal research leads me to believe it is a concept which was a popular political tool - Allah knows better.

If you look to history the Zaydis were busy uprising against the Abbasids (for example, Zayd ibn Ali, al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah, Yahya ibn Umar - may Allah be pleased with them) just like their forefathers did against the Umayyads. It was therefore in the interest of the Abbasids to quell these uprisings as much as possible. It is interesting that all Shia ulema today wear black which was the favourite colour of the Abbasids for the court. This is a quick copy and paste from Wikipedia but you can see how some early Shia sects were being lurred in by the Abbasids who used Messainism as a tool to bring down the Umayyads:

Another sub-sect of the Hashimiyya recognized the Abbasid Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Abdallah ibn ‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib as the legitimate successor of Abu Hashim. This Abbasid sub-sect comprised the majority of the original Hashimiyya.[33] The Abbasids alleged that Abu Hashim (who died childless in 716) had named his successor to be Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Abdullah (d. 744). Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Abdullah became the founder of the Abbasid Caliphate.[34] He had a brother named Ibrahim (who was killed by the Umayyads); and two sons As-Saffah (who became the first Abbasid Caliph) and Al-Mansur (who became the second Abbasid Caliph). [35] Therefore, the ideological engine of the Abbasid revolt was that of the Kaysanites.[36]

    Another sub-sect was the Abu Muslimiyya sub-sect (named after Abu Muslim Khorasani). This sub-sect maintained that the Imamate had passed from As-Saffah to Abu Muslim. They also believed that Al-Mansur did not kill Abu Muslim, but instead someone who resembled Abu Muslim and that Abu Muslim was still alive.[37]
    Another sub-sect was the Rizamiyya. They refused to repudiate Abu Muslim, but also affirmed that the Imamate would remain in the Abbasid family until the Qiyama, when a descendant of ‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib would be the Mahdi.[37]

If you think about it, wilayat al-faqih is just an imamate theory because how can a community function with an occulted imam? I hope I caused no offense and Allah knows best.

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by gharib570

[gharib570]

edit: just to clarify we do believe in the infalllibility or ismat of the ahl al-Bayt because this is reported by mass traditions and the Quran. However we do not believe in infallibility in the sense that they made no human mistakes, like we allow for forgetfulness or minor lapses in judgement etc.

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, gharib570 said:

Shia ulema today wear black which was the favourite colour of the Abbasids for the court. This is a quick copy and paste from Wikipedia but you can see how some early Shia sects were being lurred in by the Abbasids who used Messainism as a tool to bring down the Umayyads:

Quote

Only after Seyyed Radhiyy, did using the color black amongst seyyids and those from the tribe of Bani Hashem become customary. Seyyed Radhiyy, was born in the year 359 and died in the year 406 (hijri); meaning that the use of this symbol amongst seyyids became common sometime around the fourth century. Before the time of Seyyed Radhiyy, seyyids did not associate themselves with the color black. As mentioned, one of the reasons for this was their movement against Bani Abbas who had adopted the color black as a sign for themselves. This resulted in narrations regarding the wearing black clothes as being makruh.

Also, it has been narrated that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) wore different colors of turbans. One example is a white colored turban which was generally referred to as Sahab (cloud).[7] In history, we find significant figures who lived at the advent of Islam as wearing white turbans. For example: Ali ibn Husein (عليه السلام) (Imam Sajjad), Salem bin Abdullah, Saeed bin Jabeer, and Kharjeh bin Zayd all wore white colored turbans.

During the time of Imam Reza (عليه السلام), green was a symbolic color amongst the Alawiyys (followers of the Imams), and thus wearing a green turban became widespread.[8]

Some deem that kings of the Safavi dynasty in Iran, designated the use of black turbans amongst seyyids as to continually symbolize and mourn oppression that occurred against their ancestor, Imam Hussein (عليه السلام).[9] The problem with this opinion is that this claim does not correspond with the cultural norms of the Iranian people; for during the time of mourning they wear black clothes, not black turbans.

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa6393

12 hours ago, gharib570 said:

The Twelvers also have an opposite hadith saying that Zayd actually encouraged the people to curse the caliphs but they did not, so he called them "Batris" (reducers).

this is completely wrong because Shias encouraged him to curse the three caliphs but he rejected  it so he lost support of a large amount of Shias.

Salihiyya
Salihiyya (or Batriyya) are the followers of al-Hasan b. Salih b. Hayy al-Hamdani and Abu Isma'il b. Nafi', known as Kathir an-Nawa' or al-Abtar. Their disagreement with Zayd over the issue of tawalli and tabarri made Zayd curse them, and so they were called Batriyya. Salihiyya believe that the Imam must be elected by an elite council. They believe that a person can become an Imam even if there is another person better than him, albeit if the latter does not disagree with it. Salihiyya insist on the principle of enjoining the good (al-amr bi l-ma'ruf) and are against taqiyya. They are close to Sunnis in jurisprudence.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Zaydiyya

 

[gharib570]

We will agree to disagree my brother as you can see Zaydis and Twelvers have different opinions on how and why Zayd ibn Ali (عليه السلام) was deserted by some of his followers. Zaydis Shia are not Batri because person who believes in the imamate of Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) cannot possibly accept the imamate of the sheikhs. We do not believe in the cursing incident with Zayd, as stated there is no mention of this incident in early Zaydi sources - only the Sunnis and Twelvers narrate this event. It is like a Sunni trying to tell a Twelver what is in their own books when it does not exist, they will not accept it.

Edited July 18, 2020 by gharib570

[Ashvazdanghe]

Batri was one branches of zaydis but we don't  have such groups like Batri or [edited out] which these lables are using by a grouplet from london that calls every shia that disagrees with them with lables of Batri & [edited out] & etc but we don't  have such lables for any shia group that it said that after reappearance  of Imam Mahdi (aj) a group  of Shias in Kufa will rise against  him & he will kill them that this group is called Batri but before reappeance  of Imam Mahdi (aj) we don't  have such group .

Edited July 18, 2020 by Ashvazdanghe

[hasanhh]

On 7/16/2020 at 6:05 PM, power said:

Does anyone have any idea what started this debate whether the Quran was created or not? 

Ayat 10:37

[power]

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Ayat 10:37

So what prompted the debate, created or uncreated?

[hasanhh]

9 hours ago, power said:

So what prompted the debate, created or uncreated?

What started it, lDK.

As for an answer, Ayats 3:14 and 5:17

[power]

21 hours ago, hasanhh said:

What started it, lDK.

As for an answer, Ayats 3:14 and 5:17

okay thanks.

[Eddie Mecca]

On 6/30/2020 at 1:37 PM, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

you do not do Taqiyyah in the manner of the Shia?

The estrangement of Taqiyyah is due to the internal influence Wahhabism is currently having on Sunnism. Most Generation Y (i.e. Millennial) Sunnis think Taqiyyah is a foreign scheme and dubiously made up by Shi'a. All Muslims believed in Taqiyyah during the early days of Islam. Sunnis forgot the concept largely because they comprise a whopping 78 - 82% of the 1.7 billion Muslims in the world today. In other words, they are the dominant majority and haven't had to use it (i.e. precautionary dissimulation) in long long time. Sunnis, Jews and non-Catholic Christians had to perform Taqiyyah in Muslim Spain during the Spanish Inquisition (in 1492) when Queen Izabella and King Ferdinand gave them the ultimatum to either: 1.) Become Catholic 2.) Leave Spain or 3.) Be put to death. Here's the Executive Director of CAIR"s Los Angeles bureau/chapter Hussam Alyoush talking about Taqiyyah...and yes, he's a Syrian Sunni (Muslim Brotherhood) 

 

[Ali bin Hussein]

On 7/1/2020 at 12:50 AM, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

Your sect really interests me in that you seem far less extreme from a Sunni perspective than the Jafaris or Ismailis. I think I can confidently say that you are the closest to Ahlus Sunnah. Also some of our Ulama, notably the fuqahah, make takfir of anyone who curses the Sahabah (e.g. Imam Malik Rahimullah Alay). Of course this is not the actual opinion you take as a Sunni as we follow the more lenient opinion of the theologians, who do not make takfir, but I just find it interesting to note that even according to our fuqahah it seems you would be confidently identified as muslims (albeit muslims who have strayed from the path of the Sahabah Radiyallahy Anhum).

I would contest you however in your saying that the twelvers do not curse the Sahaba, I have heard myself a twelver say something like "Lanat Allah Alay" after the name of one the blessed Sahabah. I am sure the majority don't but some (likely extremists) do. Perhaps it is the ones that call themselves, "Sistanis", who do this.

Anyway sorry to pepper you with questions but I am really interested on the Zaidi perspective on some other topics.

1. Out of interest what is your view on Qadar (the divine decree of Allah/predestination)?

2. Do you believe you will see Allah on Yawm al-Qiyamah?

3. Do you affirm that the Quran is uncreated?

4. I understand Shia Twelver Akhbaris hold the doctrine of "Tahreef" when it comes to the Quran. Twelver Usulis, whilst not holding the position themselves, tolerate such an idea and do not declare it kufr. What is the Zaidi perspective on the presevation of the Quran? Have any of your scholars held such views? Would you regard such a view as Kufr or not?

5. What is the status of your imams compared to the prophets alayhim salam? I understand that twelvers would consider their imams superior to the prophets (but not our messenger salallahu alayhi wa salam), do you hold the same view or not?

6. Do you affirm all of the five pillars of Islam, all of the six pillars of iman, do you believe in Ihsan and do you believe that there are signs of hour?

The five pillars of Islam are:

1. Shahadah
2. Salah
3. Zakat
4. Sawm
5. Hajj

The six pillars of Iman are to believe in:

1. Allah
2. His Angels
3. His Books (e.g. the Quran, Tawrah, Zaboor and Injil, including at least anything else mentioned in the Quran e.g. Suhuf Ibrahim)
4. His Messengers (and prophets that are mentioned in the Quran)
5. Yawm al-Qiyamah/the resurrection (including eternal heaven/hell)
6. The Qadar of Allah (already asked you about this specifically above)

Ihsan is:

• To worship Allah as if you are seeing him, and if you don't see him then to worship him knowing he is seeing you.

7. What hadith collections do you rely on (e.g. the Sunni collections, the Shia collections or do you have your own)?

8. Finally what is generally the status of your imams (may Allah bless all of them up to and including Imam Zayd Rahimullah Alay and any others who were on firm belief)? Do you consider them to be fallible or infallible? What is their exact role according to you? How do you differ from the twelvers in this?

By the way, the above questions are open to all Zaidi brothers, please feel free to answer according to you knowledge/understanding.

Sorry for late reply I was working on a website to help answer questions on zaidiya.

Salam if you go to

Zaidiportal.com.

I think most your questions will be answered. Detailed answers can be found in the books in the library section.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Warilla

[Ali bin Hussein]

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/blogs/entry/603-position-of-the-first-3-caliphs/

[Eddie Mecca]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 PM, gharib570 said:

the Abbasids who used Messainism as a tool to bring down the Umayyads:

 

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 PM, gharib570 said:

Most Zaydis believe there will be a Mahdi at the end of time however my own personal research leads me to believe it is a concept which was a popular political tool

 

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 PM, gharib570 said:

If you do your research, you will find many messianic hadiths by the Abbasids who said they would rule until they passed the rule onto Isa (عليه السلام) etc.

Well, the Abbasids may have successfully redirected certain Shi'i concepts or rerouted Shi'i fervor to achieve specific military objectives and political ambitions...but themes of 1.) Mahdism and 2.) occultation are reoccurring postulations that can be traced all the way back to fledgling Shi'ism...for example, the Kaysāniyyah predate the political ascendancy of the Abbasids and they upheld the Imamate of Ibn al-Hanafiyyah (peace be upon him) and they maintained he was the Mahdi and believed he went into a state of occultation.....Prophet Muhammad died in 632...Kaysāniyyah formed around the personality of al-Mukhtār (may Allah be pleased with him) in 685...and Abu Muslim led his uprising in 747...it's commonly understood that the Abbasids initially ruled in a lenient and liberal manner...they became oppressive and harsh sometime later...if they formulated false doctrines to fool the multitudes into submission and compliance it must have happened long after 747...simply put...the theory that Mahdism and occultation were opium doctrines minted to lullaby the masses into a sleep falls flat on its face...we have historical evidence of the doctrines proliferating some 100 - 150 years before the revolution of Abu Muslim...inclinations revolving around ideas of apocalyptic expectation and other associated eschatological tenets were already being circulated some 50 years after the death of Muhammad (peace be upon him)

Edited February 21, 2024 by Eddie Mecca

[Eddie Mecca]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 PM, gharib570 said:

We believe that the ideas like occultation of the Qa'im were implanted by the Abbasids who were competing with the Ghulut Shia power,

Also, Mahdism isn't an exclusive doctrine of Twelverism or the ʾIsmāʿīlīyah...among Sunnis themselves the concept of a 'Mahdi' figure during the Endtime era is extremely prevalent...I read an article online which mentioned that the Sunnis have more aḥādīth about the Mahdi than the Shi'a do...in the opinion of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf all these aḥādīth about the Mahdi are considered weak (with the exception of two) according to Sunni scholarship......no doubt, Umayyad and Abbasid authorities were worried by a future universal reformer who would threaten their authority...we can connect the dots and conclude that they commissioned court scholars to classify these narrations as unauthentic in order to preserve their power...also, many if not all of these aḥādīth were conveyed by proto-Shi'i recounters who were later categorized as 'rebels', 'insurrectionists' and 'anarchists' etc....hence lending the classification of 'weakness' to the majority of these accounts

[Eddie Mecca]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 PM, gharib570 said:

We believe that the ideas like occultation of the Qa'im were implanted by the Abbasids who were competing with the Ghulut Shia power

Also, there was a subset of Zaydiyyah (they're extinct now) known as the 'Husaynites' who denied the death of al-Husayn ibn al-Qasim al-Iyani and awaited his return

Edited February 22, 2024 by Eddie Mecca

[Eddie Mecca]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 PM, gharib570 said:

We believe that the ideas like occultation of the Qa'im were implanted by the Abbasids who were competing with the Ghulut Shia power

Probably the earliest example of the belief of occultation and supernatural extended longevity of life was exemplified by Umar ibn al-Khattab when he said that Muhammad (peace be upon him) hadn't actually died but will only be shielded from human eyes for an appointed term and then return...Umar said, "Allah's Messenger did not die, nor will he die until his religion reigns supreme over all other ways of life. He shall return to amputate the hands and legs of the men who believed in his death. I will not hear a man repeat this lie or I will (personally) cut off his head." the Sunnis consider this belief and the statements of Umar as praiseworthy and acceptable and worthy of ammulation...no one accuses Umar of exaggeration or doctrinal extremism (ghuluww) or kufr etc. etc. We must ask ourselves where Umar got such notions if ideas of occultation were absolutely nonexistent during nascent Islam

Edited February 22, 2024 by Eddie Mecca