Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
THREE1THREE

Trinitarian fantasies

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Peace be upon you guys and girls, this is an collection of highlights between Unitarians and trinitarians regarding God. In some of the Quickfoot notes I add on to some of the arguments being presented, and some are just an explanation of what’s going on and some of them I reply to Argument brought forth. I hope you guys can benefit from this.

 

Trinitarian:

“The prophets in the Bible sometimes did crazy things through God's power, but they never brought attention to themselves.  They always said something like, "This is what the Lord says, " etc.  Jesus comes and begins talking about things he says and to follow him.  He claims titles for himself that are only for God.” 

Reply 

Monotheist: “You are desperately trying to fit in the trinity it’s like you are holding on to a very thin weak rope. Jesus saying parables and explaning some of them in no way shows he is God whats the point of saying a parable and not knowing what is the message behind it & not knowing how to explain it. Prophet jesus saying to his disciples and to the believers to follow him in no way shows he is God, jesus was carrying out God’s commands and purpose just like the previous prophets an example is prophet Jeremiah, jeremiah 1:7 “7And the Lord said to me; Say not, "I am a youth," for wherever I send you, you shall go, and whatever I command you, you shall speak.  Another example is prophet Ezekiel, Ezekiel 2:

1And He said to me; "Son of Man, that which you find, eat; eat this scroll and go, speak to the house of Israel."

2So I opened my mouth, and He fed me this scroll.

3And He said to me, "Feed your stomach and fill your bowels with this scroll, which I give you"; so I ate, and in my mouth it was as sweet as honey.

4And He said to me; "Son of Man, go, come to the house of Israel and speak to them with My words.

5For it is not to a people of an unfathomable language and a heavy tongue that you are sent, [but] to the house of Israel.

6Not to many peoples, of deep language and heavy tongue, whose words you do not understand-had I sent you to them, I swear they would hearken to you!

7But the house of Israel will not be willing to hearken to you, because they are not willing to hearken to Me; for all the house of Israel are brazen and of stubborn heart

John 10:27-29

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father(God), WHO HAS GIVEN  THEM TO ME, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”

Quick footnote: John 10 verse 29 makes it clear it is God who gives Jesus followers, God guides the one to who is looking for guidance to Jesus since Jesus is carrying out God’s purpose and commandments.

John 14:10 “10Don’t you believe that I am united with the Father, and that the Father is united with me? THE WORDS I SAY TO YOU I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN AUTHORITY. Rather, it is the Father..., who is doing his work.” 

Quick footnote: jesus points out to Philip that he is united with God in purpose, the words jesus says to the believers and disciples are not out of his own inclinations it is naught but a revelation just like the previous prophets which have been presented.  

My reply to trinitarian

No where does Jesus say “I am Yahweh” and nor the term “Son of Man” and “son of God” does not show any divinity, jesus does definitely denies being God explicitly.

Is Prophet Ezekiel God ? he has the title “Son of Man” 

Ezekiel 2

1And He said to me; ‘Son of Man, stand on your feet, and I shall speak with you.’

Ezekiel 2

3And He said to me; ‘Son of Man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to rebellious nations, which rebelled against Me; they and their fathers rebelled against Me to this very day.’

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, not a Son of Man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

“Son of Man” is idiom for “I am Human” even some of your Christian bible explain the Idiom instead of translating it.

 

Prophet Elisha healed “Na’aman from leprosy he must be God ? 

Luke 4: 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

 

Prophet Ezekiel also raised the dead Alive he must be God?? 

Ezekiel 37:

4And He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.'

5So says the Lord God to these bones; Behold, I will cause spirit to enter into you, and you shall live!

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and I will make flesh grow over you and cover you with skin and put breath into you, and you will live, and you will then know that I am the Lord."

7So I prophesied as I was commanded, and there arose a noise when I prophesied, and behold a commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone!

8And I looked, and lo! sinews were upon them, and flesh came upon them, and skin covered them from above, but there was still no spirit in them.

9Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O Son of Man, and say to the spirit, 'So says the Lord God: From four sides come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain ones that they may live.' "

10And I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the spirit came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, a very great army, exceedingly so.

11Then He said to me, "Son of Man, these bones are all the house of Israel. Behold they say, 'Our bones have become dried up, our hope is lost, we are clean cut off to ourselves.'

12Therefore, prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord God: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel.

Jesus was no different to Prophet Ezekiel 

John 11:

3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Master, the one you love is sick.”

4When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for Allaha’s glory so that Allaha’s messenger may be glorified through it.” 5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8“But RABBI,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12His disciples replied, “Master, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 

13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

16Then Thomas said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus

17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21“Master,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW ALLAHA WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the [eternal] life. The one who believes in me will live....26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Master,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the messager of Allaha, who is to come into the world.”

28After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

32When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Master, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 

34“Where have you laid him?” he asked.

“Come and see, Master,” they replied.

35Jesus wept.

36Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

37But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”

Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39“Take away the stone,” he said.“But, Master,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”

40Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of Allaha?”

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(Allaha), I THANK YOU(Allaha) THAT YOU(Allaha) HAVE HEARD ME. 42I KNEW THAT YOU(Allaha) ALWAYS HEAR ME, BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(Allaha) SENT ME.”

43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

 

Did jesus do miracles by the permission of God ? 

John 11:22

“22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW ALLAHA WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.”

yes most definitely. 

 

why did such miracle take place ?

John 11:4

“...it is for Allaha’s glory so that Allaha’s messenger may be glorified through it.”

John 11:41-42

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(Allaha), I THANK YOU(Allaha) THAT YOU(Allaha) HAVE HEARD ME(jesus). 42I KNEW THAT YOU(Allaha) ALWAYS HEAR ME(jesus), BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(Allaha) SENT ME(jesus).”

so that the people know that Jesus is God’s Messenger and revere Jesus.

Many times jesus shows that he is a Messenger of God,  in John 17:3 makes its clear that he is a Messenger and to open the lock of eternal life(salvation) I person must testify their is no god but Allaha and Jesus is His Messenger.

“3Now this is eternal life: that they know You(Allaha), the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You(Allaha) have sent”

 

Jesus explicitly denies being God 

John 10:27-39

“27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life(salvation), and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I HAVE SHOWN YOU MANY GOOD WORKS FROM THE FATHER(Allaha). For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’?35IF HE(Allaha) CALLED THEM ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF ALLAHA CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of Allaha’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too.

The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression meaning they are one in purpose.

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ?35IF HE(Allaha) CALLED THEM ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF ALLAHA CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of Allaha’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

In verse 34 jesus crystal clearly points out that Pslams 82:6 is about God’s Messengers (Messengers receive divine scripture like David,Moses,job,Ezekiel,Enoch,Noah. Prophets of God don’t receive any divine scripture rather they confirm the truth contained within the scripture), then in verse 36,right after, jesus says,”WHAT ABOUT THE ONE WHOM THE FATHER(Allaha) SET APART AS HIS VERY OWN [REPRESENTATIVE] AND SENT IN TO THE WORLD?” Then jesus takes advantage of Psalms 82:6 that he used to refute their false accusation and says, “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of Allaha’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.“ as the Pslams 82:6 calls the Messengers of God “sons of the Most Hight(El Elyon)”. In verse 37 jesus makes it clear that he does these good work with not his own authority rather with God’s authority and Jesus tells them to not believe in him if he does these without God’s authority, Jesus was simply carrying out God’s commands and purpose and not going by his own desires. Which he make clear in the next verse, “38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.”

 

Trinitarian3:

Look again at this passage from Matthew 16:13-17- "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

“After Peter tells Jesus that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus calls Peter blessed instead of rebuking him. Also did you notice that the disciples said that others were saying that He was John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah or one of the prophets? Can you see that they are stating that there is a difference between Jesus and the prophets? This is just one of countless examples when the Gospels explicitly shows that Jesus is God! Yes there were other prophets who performed miracles and they did them to glorify God. I agree with you that Jesus is a prophet. I agree with you that Jesus is a messenger, that he is THE Messiah, rabbi/teacher and Son of Man. But He is also God”

“John 14:6 ‘Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’”

Reply 

Monotheist: 

“I’ve already explained that the term “son of God” is an expression and jesus himself shows it is an expression. Go back and read again. The term “living God” is used in the OT many times it is an expression of emphasis on God being the necessary existence.  The Jewish rabbi’s have given lengthy articles on that expression.”

Quick footnote: jesus shows the term “son of God” it it an expression; in John 10:35-36 when jesus takes advantage of Psalms 82:6 since it calls the Messengers of God “the sons of the Most High(God)”

‘Also did you notice that the disciples said that others were saying that He was John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah or one of the prophets? Can you see that they are stating that there is a difference between Jesus and the prophets?’

“If you read it in context you would know they were referring to the previous prophets. In the the Gospel of Mark peter says you are the messiah sent from God.

Very desperate attempt.”

Quick footnote: Mark 8:disciples

27Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”

28They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”

29“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

30Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

 ‘John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’

“Ive already explained this verse in one of my refutes against Paul, and look at the historical context of the verse otherwise this verse would be contradicting other parables. 

I’ll quote it here. 

John:14:6

6Jesus answered, “I am, the Way; and [the] truth and the [way to] [eternal] life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus first addresses himself to be one those who belong to the sect called “the Way” then says his the truth and the way to enteral life(paradise) and it is except through Christ whom the truth is with, can stand before the LORD well pleasing and pleased.”

 

Trinitarian: 

“You may write a lot, but that does not mean you are right or even have good biblical arguments.  You severely take scriptures out of context.  For example, you say that Thomas when he calls Jesus, "My Lord and My God," is just a phrase.” 

“That is not what Christianity believes, and it's way out of context.  So you're telling me that Thomas see Jesus and in other words was like, Wow!, and then Jesus says, "Because you have seen me, you have believed.  Blessed are those who have not seen and believe."  So Thomas sees Jesus and was like "oh my God," and Jesus says what he says.  That's way out of context man.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“24Now Thomas (also known as Didymus a ), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord!’

But he said to them, ‘Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.’

26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you!’ 27Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’

28Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’

29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas didn’t believe jesus was alive and said to the disciples, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

Then when Jesus came and told him to, “Put your finger here; see my hands” 

Then after Thomas did all of these he was in shock exclaimed, 

28Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’

this was just an expression the sameway “Oh my God” the equivalent of that expression in Aramaic is ‘Ya Elohi Ya Elohi’ that’s exactly what Thomas said. 

So your rubbish argument of “your taking it out of context” shows your baseless claims and double standards.” 

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“You pick what you believe to be an expression and because you say so, John 20:28 has to be an expression?”

“But I don't see any reason to believe that this was just a phrase nor that the original language doesn't actually say that Thomas is calling Jesus Master and God.”

Quick footnote: the monotheist didn’t say that Thomas exclaimed “my master my God” as we can see the trinitarian had no clue what the expression “Ya Elohi Ya Elohi” means.

Reply 

Monotheist: 

“No the context is clear you are just desperately wanting to fit in the trinity in whatever verses and incidents you can manipulate but fail. 

Lets give it another read.

24Now Thomas (also known as Didymus a ), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

Thomas was not with the disciples when they saw Jesus and the disciples said ‘we have seen the lord’

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

Thomas didn’t believe them because initially he believed Jesus was dead.

26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

As we can clearly see Thomas doubted jesus was still alive and not dead and Jesus tells him to see hands and put his into his side? ,Anyway, and said to Thomas stop doubting because Thomas made it clear in verse 24 that he would not believe until he sees the nail marks on his hands and put his finger where the nails were and put his hand into jesus’ side. Then when Thomas did all of these he was in shock and exclaimed, 

28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

He was in shock that Jesus was alive. His exclamation was the same expression as “Oh my God”, in Aramaic the equivalent of that is “Ya Elohi “Ya Elohi” which is exactly what Thomas said. 

29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

the context is clear as daylight, sadly your just stubborn. You deliberately misinterpret verses and take incidents out context to try and fit the trinity and overlook the clear verses.”

Quick footnote: when jesus says to Thomas “because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who not seen and yet have believed” he is telling Thomas that blessed are those who didn’t witness jesus being crucified and being raised back to life yet they believe it. Side note-  this incident was added for political and theological reasons the original one is in Luke when Jesus walks in on the disciples and greets them. 

 

 

Monotheist: 

“Mark 10:17-18

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Jesus questions a questioner for calling him “good teacher” the reason being is because he didn’t want any sort of praise not even a small one, jesus was simply being humble and says to the questioner, “no one is good except God alone” jesus wanted all praise to God.  This incident clearly shows Jesus is not God. Yet you guys deny it arrogantly”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“You talk about Jesus asking the rich man, "why do you call me good?"  Why do you just assume out of context that he's not testing this man.  Jesus by no means is saying he's not good.  In fact, the opposite would be that he's bad.  He's not bad but very good.  In the end of the passage he tells the rich man to sell everything (which was not one of the 10 commandments) and to follow him.  Jesus knew his heart like only God does and does not say, "and follow your heavenly Father," but specifically says to follow him.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“‘Why do you just assume out of context that he's not testing this man.’

How much of joke can ur assumptions be.

Mark 10:17-18

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Jesus questions the questioner for calling him “Good teacher” then says to the questioner “No one is good except God alone” THEN jesus answers his Question.”

Quick footnote: no where do we see is testing rather Jesus questions the questioners minor praise by calling him “Good” jesus didn’t want any sort of praise not even the least rather he wanted all praise to God hence why he said “no one is good except God alone” then after that Jesus and his question ,which was what must he do to inherit eternal life, and says “19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” 20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Jesus loved him when the boy said he has kept these this shows that Jesus did encourage to keep the commandments and also preached to keep as we can see in many occasions. Jesus having the knowledge of the Unseen does not show in any way, shape or from that Jesus is God, Prophet Jesus is no different to other prophets who had the knowledge of the unseen when they prophecies about future events or what will happen to a particular person. Jesus was asking the boy to follow him physically, again this in no way, shape or form does it show jesus is God; jesus told the boy to sell everything he had and then to come follow him. Even when jesus tells the people to follow him that in no way shows he is God, jesus is carrying out God’s purpose and commands and he has the knowledge to the door of salvation so when jesus tells other people to follow him he is telling them to follow his teaching which God is preaching through him just like the previous prophets and to take him as a role model just like the previous prophets. And it is God who gives jesus followers as we have shown before. And also notice the boy didn’t call jesus “Good teacher” the second time rather he only called him “teacher” the boy recognised that Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise at all period. 

 

Trinitarian:

“In John 8 and 10, no Jesus is not trying to prove that he is not God.  That's not the point of the writer, the book or the New Testament.”

Reply 

Monotheist: 

“according to your wishful thinking.

John 10:

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

As can be seen from John 10:28 and John 10:29 Jesus was telling the Jews that he and God share something in common, and it was: no one can pluck the faithful from either of their hands. This was the common factor between Jesus and God in this case, and not that Jesus was himself God, or that they were exactly the same.

John 10:30 

30I and the Father are one.”

then Jews took this part of out of context and started to stone him

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father(GOD). For which of these do you stone me?”

Jesus at this point didn’t know why he was getting stoned even though he was carrying out God’s commands and purpose which are not blasphemous hence why he said “I have shown you many good works from the Father(God). And asked, “For which of these do you stone me?” 

Then Jews replied to him,

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Then jesus replies cleverly to their false accusation, 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim” ?

the Jews are radical monotheists,  jesus quotes Psalms 82:6, jesus is challenging them by pointing out is “elohim” over here is to be taken literally or not ? If saying “I and the Father are one” is blasphemy then “I have said you are elohim” is also blasphemy. The Jews knew very well the it is not to be taken literally rather it is an expression, jesus was making it clear that “I and the Father are one” was just an expression meaning him and God are one in purpose , If Jesus was God then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point.

then jesus takes advantage of Pslams 82:6 to make it clear to them that he is a Messenger of God.

35If he called them ‘elohim,’ to WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own [representative] and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of Allaha’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the Father.”

In verse 35 jesus crystal clearly points out that Pslams 82:6 is about God’s Messengers (Messengers receive divine scripture like David,Moses,job,Ezekiel,Enoch,Noah. Prophets of God don’t receive any divine scripture rather they confirm the truth contained within the scripture), then in verse 36,right after, jesus says,”WHAT ABOUT THE ONE WHOM THE FATHER(Allaha) SET APART AS HIS VERY OWN [REPRESENTATIVE] AND SENT IN TO THE WORLD?” Then jesus takes advantage of Psalms 82:6 that he used to refute their false accusation and says, “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of Allaha’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.“ as Pslams 82:6 calls the Messengers of God “sons of the Most Hight(El Elyon)”. In verse 37 jesus makes it clear that he does these good work with not his own authority rather with God’s authority and Jesus tells them to not believe in him if he does these without God’s authority, Jesus was simply carrying out God’s commands and purpose. Which he makes clear in the next verse, “38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.”

it is clear as daylight jesus was just a messiah, prophet, Messenger of God. 

John 8:18

18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

Jesus makes it clear over here he is a Messenger of God.”

 

 

Trinitarian: 

“We believe that Jesus "emptied himself," leaving his divine right being at the Father's side to become a full human being.  This is clearly laid out Philippians 2.  It's really not that hard to understand here.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘We believe that Jesus "emptied himself," leaving his divine right being at the Father's side to become a full human being.’

“You distinguish The Father, who is God, from jesus whom you also believe is a divine being. And you say that Jesus manifested himself as human being, that’s dualism.  the right hand of God is a reference to the highest heaven.”

‘This is clearly laid out Philippians 2.  It's really not that hard to understand here.’

“Paul is a dualist he believes in two Gods one being Almighty one not being Almighty. You arrogantly and staunchly deny this even the verses are clear as daylight.

Trinitarians try to use  2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse...

14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing between Jesus Christ and the “love of God” and the Holy Spirit. 

Paul himself believed the holy spirit is a gift from God.

1 Thessalonians 4:8

...the very God who gives you His holy spirit.”

The question arises did Paul believe in a trinity or was he a dualist ?  

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...” but on contrary Paul calls God “the Father” the same way Prophet Ezra, Daniel Jeremiah called God “Allah”.

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Romans 15:6

“6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

We can clearly see clear as daylight that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God(i.e divine) but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God Almighty but he also believes jesus was also a God beside(i.e next to) God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God Almighty rather he is limited. 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty except he is a limited God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets.”

Quick footnote: we can clearly see Paul showing jesus has a God, Ephesians 1:3 “praise to be the God.....of our lord Jesus Christ” it is not hard to understand that Paul is dualist when it’s crystal clear.

 

Trinitarian:

“They knew his title, "Son of God" or unique Son were not normal to attribute to a man.  Yes, there are a lot of meanings but some of the meanings applied to someone changes the situation.  God has many sons but his "only Son" is different.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“The messagers of God were called the “son of God” as Jesus has shown in John 10:35-36 when he used Pslams 82:6 to his own advantage. 

John1 saying jesus is the Lord’s one only son(Messenger)  is simply saying jesus is final messager sent to the children of Israel.”

 

Trinitarian:

“They knew when he claims to be "Son of Man" that he was going back to prophecy”

Reply 

Monotheist: 

Son of Man is Idiom for “ i am Human” and also “human” and “man” I’ve shown that crystal clear and you denied it arrogantly. 

Numbers 23:19 God makes it clear he is not the Son of Man not a man. Jesus is a man and human. 

Quick footnote: Mathew 8: 18When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”

20Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” 

Over here jesus was not prophesying, he was telling the teacher of the law that he had no home. 

 

Trinitarian:

“Psalm 110 and 2.” Quick footnote: trinitarian’s Argument on jesus being God in the OT. 

Reply 

Monotheist:

Psalm 110:1 

which In hebrew it says 

“Yahweh said to adoni(Not ADONAI)”

“adoni” means “my master” the same way a student calls his leader Master in the ancient times or a slave calls his leader Master. 

Adonai on the other hand is God’s name which means “the LORD”

God’s name “Adonai” appears in the Shema.

“Shema Yisroel ADONAI eloheinu ADONAI Echad”  

Psalms 2:

show’s jesus is in the highest heaven and is laughing at his enemies and God is mocking them. There is a clear distinguishment.

“Why have nations gathered and [why do] kingdoms think vain things? 

Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the LORD and against His Messiah ? 

“Let us break their bands and cast off their cords from us.”

He who dwells in heaven laughs(reference to jesus); the LORD mocks them.

Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure.

“But I have enthroned My king on Zion, My holy mount.”

I will tell of the decree; The LORD said to me, “You are My son(godly servant); this day I have begotten(gave rise to) you. 

Request of Me, and I will make nations your inheritance, and the ends of the earth your possession.

You shall break them with an Iron rod; like a potter’s vessel you shall shatter them.

And now, [you] kings, be wise; be admonished, [you] Judges of earth.

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with quaking.

Arms yourselves with purity lest He becomes angry and you perish in the way; for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praise of all who take refuge in Him”

 

Quick footnote: on Psalms 2:

2Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the Lord and against His messiah?

3"Let us break their bands and cast off their cords from us."

4He Who dwells in Heaven laughs; the Lord mocks them.

In verse 2 their is a clear distinguishing God from Jesus the messiah , then in verse 4 it says “he who dwells in heaven laughs” this is a reference to jesus since he ascended to heaven and escaped death then it says “Yahweh mocks them” their is a clear distinction from the one who laughs and the One who is mocking. Even the passage has a semicolon between them as we can clearly see from the context God and the Messiah are distinguished from each other because that’s what the passage is conveying.

 

Trinitarian:

“God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.  Simply forgiving sin does not take care of the problem of sin.”

“God does something with our sin.  All the injustices and horrible acts including the ones you and I have done (even with our thoughts) do not just disappear into thin air.  The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people’

“On certain conditions like the OT unlike your God who simply forgives people by commiting suicide. Look at the double standards. And lack of Logic.”

‘God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.’

“Hence why God says in Deuteronomy 8:5-6 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.

6And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to go in His ways, and to fear Him.”

Unlike ur God who simply forgives by committing suicide.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“Suicide is taking a life away by someone who has no right to take that life away.  Only the creator has that right.  Suicide is selfish and is an ultimate lack of faith (I do feel for those who are going through depression and stuff that would lead to suicide because I know it's very hard).  God has every right to give his life as he pleases because it's his life and he is God and creator.  It's not selfish because he knows he's the best thing for humanity and his act is saving humanity.  Big difference here.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You know very well you are running away from your double standards. Ur God simply forgives by killing himself no sense of justice whatsoever. 

When a killer does something in real life yous all voice out demanding justice and he should be sent to jail but when he is released from court yous all get angry and question the courts sense of justice.”

 

 

Trinitarian3:

“Jesus was the only person who lived a perfect life on earth (how could He be perfect if He is not God?), that He died on a cross not because of His own sins but because of ours”

Trinitarian:

“He holds more titles than any prophet, never sinned”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“It’s part of your theology that prophets are infallible, meaning they can sin but the wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness. Their are many passages where prophets supposedly sin and to the extent that they worship idols or make an idol to be worshiped. 

When Jesus is being tested by Satan behind this incident is a theology which is infallibility. So it is part of your beliefs to believe the prophets are infallible.

Both the gospel and the Tanakh compliment each other regarding truth between falsehood, the Law helps with the gospel and the gospel helps with the Tanakh.”

Reply

Trinitarian2:

“There is no Christian teaching that prophets are infallible - many places, as you say, show they sin. - Not sure what you are getting at.

In the case of Jesus, he could have sined but due to his reliance on the scriptures and his relationship with the Holy Spirit he was able to resist and stand against the devil, giving us an example to follow.  I want to follow someone who was strong enough to resist the whisperings of the devil.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“It’s due to his relationship with God and the scriptures, like i said prophets can sin but they wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness, the way the gospel works is behind every incident their is a principle or a theology behind it. Behind this incident is a theology which is infallibility.

I ask you if someone came to you and did a big business deal with you but then he cheated on you, months go by and that person comes back again and says to you “forgive me, I regret what I did with you last time, do you want to make another big business deal ?” Will you enter another business deal with that person?”

 

Trinitarian3:

“I can forgive and should forgive - God has forgiven me much more than any sin a person could do against me.  But that doesn't mean I enter in to a new deal.  I need to spend time with the person, love and value them as see if there has been a change. Not just regret but heart transformation.”

Reply

Monotheist:

‘But that doesn't mean I enter in to a new deal’

“This clearly shows you haven’t forgiven him and you can’t trust him. Can pure water pass through impure water ? Answer this question. 

“Trinitarian2 I gave you a parable about the business men, you said you wouldn’t trust him. Then how could you trust a person ,who is supposed to be a representative of God, who commits sins to the extent of worshiping idols or creating one to guide you ? Can you pass pure water through impure water ???

Mathew 7:3 “3Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”

It is part of your theology to believe that the prophets are infallible, meaning they can sin but they wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness. The Gospel is a book of principles and theology behind every incident/parable their is a principle, recommended acts or theology when jesus is being tested in the dessert behind this incident is theology which is infallibility. 

Isho Is Tested in the Wilderness

6Then Isho was led by an angel into the wilderness to be tested by the devil. 7After fasting forty days. 8The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the messenger of Allaha, tell these stones to become bread.”

9Isho answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of Allaha.’ ”

(Deuteronomy 8:3)

10Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 11“If you are the messenger of Allaha,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ ” (Psalms 91:11-12)

12Isho answered him, “It is also written: ‘You shall not try the LORD your Eloh, as you tried Him in Massah.’ ” (Deuteronomy 6:16)

13Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 

14“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and serve me.”

15Isho said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the LORD your Eloh, and serve Him only.’” 

(Deuteronomy 6:13)

16Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him

 

Trinitarian:

“We worship one God, in three persons.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“Modalism.”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“You know full well that we don’t believe that God is like this. There are three distinct persons, not one who acts like all three.”

Reply

Monotheist:

“If you say not no one who acts like all three(I.e takes on modes or exsist in all three which is a another form of Modalism) then that means their are three Gods since they are DISTINCT and share the same ESSENCE. Or God is made up of three parts, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit which nullifies God being the necessary existence. Or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit make up a team called “God”. “

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“There is only one being of God but instead of being one person like you and I, he is three.”

“The trinity is both complex and easy to understand at the same time.”

“He doesn't have to be one being and one person like we want him to be.”

“don't believe that any human analogy quite fits to explain the Trinity (at least one that I know) because you veer off into some type of error, but we there are many examples of three being one.”

“So, each person is distinct from the others in their person-hood, but completely and equally God with the same character as the Father.”

“On the cross Jesus fully dies (although dying does not mean ceasing to exist).”

“The Father raises Jesus us by the power of the Spirit.  All three persons are at work”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘There is only one being of God but instead of being one person like you and I, he is three.’

“That’s Modalism right their. You are shifting to Modalism without even realising it.”

‘The trinity is both complex and easy to understand at the same time.’

“Not its not easy to understand, it’s stupid and irrational and when you try to explain it you are not being consistent and are shifting between 4 heresies without even realising.”

‘He doesn't have to be one being and one person like we want him to be.’

“So you decide to limit God to your irrational finite mind and make Him take on modes.”

‘don't believe that any human analogy quite fits to explain the Trinity (at least one that I know) because you veer off into some type of error, but we there are many examples of three being one.’

“Because you either shift from God made up of three parts, Modalism, three Gods and 4 or and seperationism. 

And You are comparing God to His creation that’s blasphemy. I’ve shown clear verses God asking if anyone is like Him and God saying no one is like Him”

‘So, each person is distinct from the others in their person-hood, but completely and equally God with the same character as the Father.’

“Now we’re back to three Gods.”

‘On the cross Jesus fully dies (although dying does not mean ceasing to exist).’

“God does not die that’s a attribute that belongs to humans and animals, now you are shifting to the heresy of separationism.”

‘The Father raises Jesus us by the power of the Spirit.  All three persons are at work’

“You distinguished all three and claim to them to be equally God. Again we’re back to three gods.  picture that in your tiny mind, the Father is completely different to the Son and the Holy Spirit and likewise with the other two and they share the same essene, when you picture that in ur mind there are three DISTINCT persons who are Gods you are not imagining one person you are imaging 2 persons (obviously the third is God but He can’t be imagined since he is Transcendent). you arrogantly deny this.

the trinity has no basis and has been refuted and you definitely don’t worship the God of the OT, you worship a spirit who dwells in heaven whom you’d view to be triune.”

 

Trinitarian:

“He is not defined by anything or limited by anything.  He is not held back or bound by time, space, or time.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“But you believe jesus is God, jesus is man. It’s either you believe in Modalism were God took on Jesus which then limits God in every way possible, or you believe their are two Gods but Jesus is subordinate to the Father, who is God as I have shown crystal clear in 1 Corinthians 8:6 which you arrogantly deny, and jesus the second God took on a form of a man which is dualism their is another God beside God Almighty.”

 

Trinitarian:

“This God could be just One being and One person if that's what he demonstrated to us in scripture.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“God does demonstrate that; I showed you the Unitarian theology in the OT clear as daylight and I’ve shown Jesus is a Messenger of God and incidents that show jesus is not God and denying being God which you arrogantly deny and showed Paul believing jesus having a God which you deny arroganly.

John 20:17

17Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” 

jesus makes it clear he has a God. and many times says he is sent by God and also prays to God. Once you face these verse all the sudden you shift to separationism and Modalism. You are never consistent.”

 

Monotheist3:

“By definition, you can't be God and a full human. For example, no human has exact knowledge of what will happen to them after they die, but God does.”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“Why not?  God can do whatever he would like to do and God has revealed in the Bible that his being and nature are not like ours.  The Bible says that God's thoughts and ways are much greater than ours.  Who can fully comprehend God? “

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You say Jesus is fully God and man. Saying God is Omnipresent and the exact same time not omnipresent, Omniscient and at the exact same time not Omniscient, omnipotent and at the exact same time not omnipotent, All-seeing and at the exact same time not All-seeing is absolutely irrational and illogical. Their is a difference between being finite and illogical, the Unitarian theology presents that wonderfully.  

2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?

All prophets knew that it is irrational and illogical, the moment you confine God you have given God a form which nullifies all attributes that strictly belong to the Divine which is Omnipresence, omnipotence, Omniscience and the All-seeing. 

So you have no choice but subscribe to the seperationist doctrine which is a heresy.”

 

Trinitarian:

“Is Allah a Father?”

Quick footnote: the trinitarian was referring to the “Muslim” God.

Reply 

Monotheist:

“the term “the Father” in the OT is attributed to God due to God’s actions that are being manifested the expression of this attributes is “The nourisher” “The sustainer” “The One who disciplines” an example of this attribute being manifested is in Deuteronomy 8:5 “You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.”

jesus never called God “the Father” this was added to the gospel(s) due Paul’s interpretation of Christ being prominent obviously because of his terrorist attacks and persecution to the original followers of Christ thus when the gosepls were written it has a influence on Paulline elements which are Hellenistic. The epistles of Paul predate all four gospels it is obvious that they would be influenced by them and the gospels were written amongst the Gentiles, which Paul did a really good job of deceiving, the Gentiles took advantage of this to mix their pagan beliefs with truth thus the Greek methodology of “the Father” who is in heaven and “the Son were added. 

Jesus always called God “Allaha” “

 

Trinitarian:

“He overcame sin and even death.”

Reply

Monotheist:

“Lazaro’s overcame death and so did Elijah. All prophets of God are infallible meaning they can sin but they wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness, Ive shown that this is part of your theology. This in no way what so ever shows Jesus is God. Very desperate attempt.”

 

Monotheist2:

“Anyway, from a Biblical standpoint, Christians are following a false-god - as per; Deuteronomy 13. That chapter alone is conclusive enough to shatter all of Christianity and Christendom in one fell swoop. Anything else is them merely begging for special pleading, utter nonsense.”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“Could you please share why you believe that Deuteronomy 13 would shatter Christianity?”

Reply 

Monotheist2:

“Deuteronomy 13 explicitly warns against following anything other than the transcendent creator of the Universe and tells that God will test the Jewish people's faithfulness to the One True God. Christianity is definitely one of those tests, with it's elevation of idolatry to a central tenet ("Jesus is the only way"), the highest form of blasphemy against the One True God there is ("Nobody comes to the father except through me.......not even Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Isaiah, etc who the father sent for utterly no reason").”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“Yes, you're right it does.  And you know what? Those false prophets are instructed to be put to death in the same chapter”

“You would be right maybe if Jesus didn't claim to be God.  But this scripture is not talking about Jesus but false human prophets like the many we see rising up all throughout the Old Testament.  Idolatry would be a correct diagnosis of our faith if we were worshiping anyone that was not Yahweh. “

Reply

Monotheist:

Was Jesus a human ? Yes. Did Jesus claim to be God ? No. Did Jesus call himself the Son of Man?, which is an idiom meaning “I am human” and also “human”, Yes. Does Jesus say show that he is a Messenger of God ? Yes. Did Jesus deny being God ? Yes. Was their an incident where it showed jesus not being God ? Yes. Did Paul believe jesus had a God? Yes. Did Paul believe jesus was also divine? Yes. Is Paul a dualist ? Yes. Did Jesus say he had a God ? Yes. Does the 5 Books of Moses show jesus being God ? No. Does the Tanakh show jesus being God ? No. Does the Tannakh affirm the Unitarian theology? Yes. Did Jesus affirm the the Unitarian theology? Yes Mathew 5:17, Mark 12:28-29.

 

Trinitarian:

“What is being said is that Jesus, though being divine and equal to God, is at the same time submissive to the Father's will and does not act outside of that.”

Reply

Monotheist:

“Dualism.

the fact that you believe jesus is divine(god) and subordinate to the Father is still dualism.”

 

Trinitarian:

“Jesus did not abolish the law in that the law is good, but does not save.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“Wrong, read Mathew 5:19-20 

John 15:10 encourages to hold on to the law again in his final moments with his disciples. 

Jesus came to fulfil the prophets aswell who also taught to hold on to the laws for salvation. 

Mathew 7: 24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Matthew 6 jesus tells you how to surpass the Pharisees. No rubbish baseless excuses it’s either you submit to God’s commands which jesus taught or go find another religion that suits your whims and desires.”

 

Trinitarian:

“Now the greatest commands are summed up by love.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“Wrong. I’ve already showed you jesus saying the greatest commandment is the shema.”

Quick footnote:

Mark 12:28-29

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 

 

Trinitarian:

“See, if Jesus came and did not submit to his Father or do only what he sees his Father doing, then you might think that Jesus is saying that He is a God and his Father is God with equal roles.”

“The Spirit also has a submissive role, although equally God and with the same One being.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“When a person sins he is not sumbiting to God, does that make him God ? No, rubbish argument.  Jesus and God are one in purpose that doesn’t make him God other prophets before him were one in purpose which I’ve shown. 

And you are distinguishing jesus who is divine from God and this shows that Jesus does have a God so that’s a god worshiping another God.”

‘The Spirit also has a submissive role, although equally God and with the same One being.’

“That’s tri-sim now. I’ve shown the Holy Spirit not being a person and you’re still being arrogant.”

 

Trinitarian:

“But when he claims to be divine”

Reply

Monotheist:

“Never claims divinity just wishful thinking. you haven’t shown any where jesus claiming  divinity.”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

Isaiah 55:8-9 says,

"“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways,”declares the Lord.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You saying this in no way justifies ur irrational trinity which you can’t explain without being inconsistent. It’s not even considered a “logical fallacy” because it’s not logical in the first place. 

You be can’t be  Omnipresent and not omnipresent at the exact same time, Omniscient and not Omniscient at the exact same time, omnipotent and not omnipotent at the exact same time, in short limited and unlimited at the exact same time which is absolutely irrational and the law and the prophets confirm and so does jesus Mathew 5:17”

 

Trinitarian:

“Jesus does what Yahweh does.”

Reply

Monotheist:

“Jesus carried God’s commands and purpose. As he makes that crystal clear. Just like the previous prophets.”

Quick footnote: notice how the trinitarian distinguishes Jesus from Yahweh...

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“agree with you that he did just that and so did the others, but not perfectly like Jesus did.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“They did it just as perfect, I’ve already shown infallibility being part of ur theology which you arrogantly deny. This shows all prophets and messengers of God are infallible and some of the OT passages are corrupted.”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“who would be eternal like God.”

Quick footnote: the trinitarian claimed that the OT prophecies of the messiah being eternal like God. 

Reply

Monotheist:

“No where in the OT does it show the messiah being eternal like God (which makes him a god beside God) this is just mere wishful thinking. All along you have been making baseless claims, misinterpreting verses, following blindly the OT verses which are badly misinterpreted in the NT which have absolutely nothing to do with Christ.”

 

Trinitarian:

“Jesus claimed to be Yahweh”

Quick footnote: he just distinguished jesus from Yahweh and now he is saying jesus claimed to be Yahweh....not consistent.

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You haven’t shown it rather you take verses, incidents and Idioms out of context and meaning to hopefully prove it.”

 

 

Trinitarian3:

“And in Islam, Allah is said to have ninety-nine names, one of them being "The Loving." "But how could Allah be loving in eternity? Before he created there was nothing else in existence that he could love (and the title does not refer to self-centered love but love for others). The only option is that Allah eternally loves his creation. But that in itself raises an enormous problem: if Allah needs his creation to be who he is in himself ("loving"), then Allah is dependent on his own creation, and one of the cardinal beliefs of Islam is that Allah is dependent on nothing." (Delighting in the Trinity pg. 40 Michael Reeves)”

“I would ask how God could be called Father if He did not eternally have a Son?”

“and prophets referred to God as Father but this would mean that God would be dependent on creating a people to call Him Father if He did not have a Son before the creation of the world”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“These 99 names are attributes given to God due to His actions that are manifested. God is Omniscient and perfect so God has always had the best qualities.” 

‘I would ask how God could be called Father if He did not eternally have a Son?’

“That’s dualism, use ur brian pay attention to what you’re saying. 

The term “the Father” has been added by Paul the imposter in the gospel(s). 

Paul’s epistles predate all 4 Gospels so it is obvious that all four would be influenced by Pauline elements which are Hellenistic.

Btw Mr Michael reeves embarrassed himself big time on the 99 names and how  were they attributed to God and he certainly didnt read the sermons of imam Ali that literally destroy his baseless argument.”

‘and prophets referred to God as Father but this would mean that God would be dependent on creating a people to call Him Father if He did not have a Son before the creation of the world’

“The term “the Father” is an expression used in the OT meaning “the Nourisher” “the sustainer” “the One who disciplines” 

this attribute is given to God due to His actions being manifested.  Here is a example. 

 Deuteronomy 8:5 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.”

God was not imperfect and then became perfect once the heavens and the earth exisited that’s blasphemy and nullifies God being Omniscient, God always has had the best qualities Before anything was created.”

 

Trinitarian:

“We do not believe in Three beings and three persons.  I am one being and only one person.  We believe God to be One being (Yahweh) and three persons of that being, all distinct and with different roles, but yet all completely Yahweh.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“you are a human that is your being, and in human terminology we refer to another human a “person”. When we are pointing  to another human we says “this person” instead of “this human”.

you are pretty such saying you believe in one what and three who’s.  That can be interpreted as three Gods or Modalism.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“I am a person who has being.  You are a person who has being.  God is three persons who has one being.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You are human who has a soul this defines your being. Comparing God to his creation is blasphemy. God is transcendent. Plus our bodies are vehicles when we die out spirit leaves our body. 

You are falling into the trap of Modalism.”

 

Trinitarian:

“The God we worship is both like us (created in his image -not physical), and much not like us because of what I just described.”

Reply

Monotheist:

“We’re neither like God nor God is like us that is blasphemy, God makes it clear.

Isaiah 40:18 To whom will you liken God? To what image will you compare Him?

Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord”

Isaiah 44:6-8 “So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God. 

And who will call [that he is] like Me and will tell it and arrange it for Me, since My placing the ancient people, and the signs and those that will come, let them tell for themselves.”

“I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9 

Deuteronomy 4:15-18 “15And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.

16Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,

17the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,

18the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.”

Genesis 1:26 and 27 is actually translated 

26And God said, "Let Us make man in Our attributes, after our attributes, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth.

27And God created man in His attributes; in the attributes of God He created him; male and female He created them.”

The word in Hebrew that is used their is “Taallem Alohim” which is an expression of “attributes of God” it doesnt say image of God at all. 

what is meant by attributes of God is God’s qualities for example the attributes that are attributed to God such as “love” we humans manifest a portion of that. Another example is seeing, God is the all-seeing; humans aren’t but God and humans both have sight but our sight is completely different to God’s sight obviously God has no organ to see like we do because God has no form and obviously he wouldn’t be all-seeing so it cannot be said we are same like wise with some other qualities that God has attributed to us to manifest. Obviously attributes that strictly belong to divine are not attributed to humans nor attributes that strictly belong to humans and the animals cannot be attributed to God nor attached to God (such as our body parts and body in general).

God is Omniscient He has always had the best qualities before anything was created otherwise that would imply God was imperfect then perfect when the heavens and the eath were created which then nullifies God being perfect and Omniscient.”

 

Trinitarian:

“Jesus is who the people were waiting for.  The "Elijah" (John the Baptist-who fulfilled O.T. prophecies) had come”

Reply

Monotheist:

“John the Baptist wasn’t the Elijah to come rather he had the power and spirit of Elijah the same way prophet Elisha had the power and spirit of Elijah. 

Luke 1:16-17 “16He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

and be prepared the way for God’s representative (who is jesus).

John 1:22-23

22Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ” 

Isaiah 40:3 “3A voice calls, "In the desert, clear the way of the Lord, straighten out in the wilderness, a highway for our God."

Malachi 3:1 “1Behold I send My messenger, and he will clear a way before Me. And suddenly, the Lord Whom you seek will come to His Temple. And behold! The messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, is coming, says the Lord of Hosts.”

God’s representative will be in God’s temple. 

Luke 2:49-50 49“Why were you searching for me?”he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s(LORD’s) house?”50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

notice in Malachi 3:1 it calls jesus the messanger of the covenant, “And behold! The messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, is coming, says the Lord of Hosts.”  Jesus was a messanger of God who came to restore God’s covenant; he came to distinguishing truth from falsehood and give the knowledge of salavation to those who are seeking it, as the verse says “the messanger of the covenant whom you desire”. 

John 1:17 “17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

jesus disciples ask about prophet Elijah. 

Mathew 17: 10-12 “10The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

The Jews thought Elijah would come first and restore all things, jesus clears this misconception and says that Elijah had already came but his people did not recognise him and did many things to him Iike wise jesus is gonna go through the same thing as prophet Elijah. This also shows he will go up to heaven and not die at all.”

 

Trinitarian:

"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does (John 5:19).  We see the Son not only claiming to be God but also doing what he does. 

Reply 

Monotheist:

“Jesus is not claiming divinity at all over here, he is just saying that he does not follow his own inclinations rather it is naught but a revelation. In other words carry out God’s commands and purpose.

Let’s look at the context.

jesus healed a man on sabbath and was persecuted by the Jews. 

john 5:17In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the son also does.

Jesus was denying  divinity and being equal to God in the very first passage. If Jesus was divine then he can do things on his own because his god. And Jesus at the end makes it clear he is a Messenger of God. 

John 5:23 “23that all may honor the son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the son does not honor the Father, who sent him(Jesus). Also right after in verse 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes Him(Allaha) who sent me(jesus) has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” So if you testify like in John 17:3 that their is no god but Allaha and Jesus is his messanger the gates of salvation are unlocked. Now to walk in you need adhere to the law. 

And btw that was a clever alteration here’s what actually happened jesus didn’t call God his “Father” rather they misunderstand jesus. Here’s the actual incident.

17In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 

what jesus was trying to convey is that God is always carrying out his purpose and will; God has not abandoned it and he(jesus) is also carrying out God’s purpose and commands just like the previous prophets but the Jews misunderstood him thinking that he also works with God meaning created a purpose and a decree; taking that part literally not only did the Jews accuse him of breaking the sabbath but also accused him of making himself equal to God.

18For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even making himself equal to God.

then jesus answered them back saying,

 

19Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the son also does.

thus jesus reply’s to them saying that he does not go by his own desires rather he carries out God’s purpose and commands , whatever God commands jesus does thus he is carrying out God’s purpose the same way God used previous prophets to carry out His purpose and commands. 

This is the actual incident.”

 

Trinitarian:

“The submission verses do not reject this.  The Father, Son and Spirit are all equally God and share one being.  Each person of this one being fulfills different roles and all are submissive to the Father.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“The verses where it shows jesus is submitting the Father shows that he is not God. Otherwise it’s either their are two Gods but Jesus is subordinate to the Father hence why he prays to him and submits to him or Modalism, God taking modes. The verses are clearly distinguishing Jesus from the Father and shows jesus is praying and submitting to the Father and also shows the Father sent Jesus. All these shows jesus is not God and he is a messanger sent by the Father(God).

Again you saying, the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit are all equally God shows trithism. Then you say “share one being” you’re not being consistent; but again the fact they share the same being but are DISTINCT shows their are three Gods or you shift to Modalism. Then you say the son and the Holy Spirit submit to the Father, again not being consistent and you are showing that the Holy Spirit and the Son are subordinate to the Father, which makes them lower gods beides God Almighy....that’s trithism.”

Reply

Trinitarian2:

“Within a perfect unity submission does not show inferiority, it shows acceptence and agreement and a unity of thought and purpose.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You believe jesus is God, who is he submitting to ? Another God. This shows jesus is subordinate to the Father.  Again ur argument nonsense. Jesus being one in purpose with God does not make him divine like I showed, other previous prophets are one in purpose with God. Jesus like other prophets carried out God’s commands. 

Submitting to God does show inferiority. Any person with a half a brain knows that; God is Sovereign.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“I find help in seeing an eternal example of a living, loving, communicating God who for eternety has been in such a close and understanding relationship that he has to be described as ONE.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“Jesus is worshipping the Father, who is God, that make him subordinate to the Father. God has sent prophets as role models for us and a law to culture us and God has been communicating to us through prophets hence why you see prophets saying they don’t speak on their own desire/God putting His words inside a prophet an example is prophet Ezekiel.

You are still contradicting yourself. The moment you confine God you have limited Him which I’ve explained.”

 

Trinitarian:

“There is no "ho" before Theos in the passage in question.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

In John 1:1 it says, “in the beginning was ho logos(the word) and ho logos (the word) was with Ho Theos(The God) and theos(divine) was ho logos(the word)” 

that is a better translation of John1:1 

Even some non biased trinitarians distinguish “Ho thoes” from “theos”

 

An Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible commentary notes:

“This second theos could also be translated 'divine' as the construction indicates "a qualitative sense for theos". The Word is not God in the sense that he is the same person as the theosmentioned in 1:1a; he is not God the Father (God absolutely as in common NT usage) or the Trinity.”

obviously the commentator is saying that the word has the same nature as God since he believes it’s a person (which makes him a dualist since they share then same essence). My point is the commentator is distinguishing the Word from God and also accepts the fact that “theos” at the end can be translated as “divine”. theos can legitimately be translated as “divine” and also “cheif” “king” but the appropriate word for this passage is “divine” meaning the word(i.e the decree) was from God. 

John L. McKenzie (Catholic Biblical scholar) wrote that ho Theos is God the Father, and adds that John 1:1 should be translated "the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being."

obviously the “being” part was added by him since he believes the Word is a person. But the my point is they are still distinguishing God from the Word. 

So john 1:1 would be, “in the beginning was the word(decree) and the word(decree)  was with Allaha and divine was the word” 

the word is the expression of God’s command “Let their Be” 

early churches before the trinity came around translated John 1:1 differently, they translated it as “a god” or simply “god” they didn’t believe jesus was God the same way the readers of the original Peshetta has it translated differently”

 

Quick footnotes: other translations also affirm what is stated above by the monotheist. Some Greek texts show “in beginning was ho logos(the word) and ho logos(the word) was with Ton Theos(the God-Allaha) and thoes(divine) was ho logos” others show “in the beginning was ho logos and ho logos was with Theov( reference to the one true God) and theos(divine) was ho logos” we can see in this Greek version that it is distinguishing the Theov, a reference to the one true God, from theos which has meanings. Unbiased trinitarian scholars themselves also distinguish them and admit that theos at the end is completely different to “the God”. 

 

Trinitarian:

“Emmanuel"

Quick footnote: the trinitarian was posting one of the prophecies about jesus in the OT. And he mentioned the prophecy about “Immanuel”

Reply 

Monotheist:

An example of your gospel authors taking verses out of context to support their beliefs. 

The story of a young women giving birth to Emmanuel has nothing to do with jesus what so ever. many times the gospels misquoted OT verses to suit their own political and theological beliefs but get exposed at the end. 

Quick footnote:

The story of the young women giving birth to son named Immanuel was prophecy to Azhar due to not seeking alliance with anti-Assyrians and seeking help from the Assyrians against the two kings from invading Jerusalem. Prophet Isaiah and his son came to Azhar and told him not worry because the two Kings won’t succeed on invading Jerusalem, Azhar asked prophet Isaiah for sign if that was the case thus prophet Isaiah gave him a sign of a young women(Almah) who will give birth to a son and he shall call him “Immanuel”.No where in the Gospels does it show Mary or anyone naming Jesus “Immanuel” The word for “virgin” in Hebrew is “Botaul” not “Almah”(which means a young women) It has nothing to do with Jesus as we can see from the context.

 

Trinitarian:

“servant, Mighty God”

Quick footnote: the trinitarian was pointing out jesus had many titles and some of the can be seen from the OT and of them is “Mighty God”

My reply 

Obviously the Christian bible mistranslates Isaiah 9:5 in hopes to prove jesus is God, (verse 6 in the Christian bible) rather the proper translation does not show the inheritor of the throne of David being “mighty God” on contrary rather it shows he will be a “prince of peace” and also God will give him authority just like the previous prophets.

Here is the proper correct translation from the Tanakh,

Isaiah 9:5-6

“5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

6To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.”

 

Trinitarian4:

“Here's another case, similar to the discussed above, in which Jesus is distinguished from both mankind, as well as any prophet, in that Jesus displays the power to forgive sin, which is otherwise considered to be an act of God by those who disbelieved.

Mark 2:1-11”

Reply 

Monotheist:

You neglect all clear arguments and verses which over weight ur wishful thinking yet you are still holding on to a thin string.

Mark 2:

 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

verse 10 was added by Paulines and another thing, Jesus calls himself then “Son of Man” which is an idiom for “Human” expressing “I am human” 

ur Christian bible translations the idiom in Numbers 23:19 as “human”, instead of translating the idiom they explain the idiom. 

As for that incident we see jesus giving the paralyzed man good knews by saying, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The Jews thought  of him being blasphemous saying such things 

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 

over here we can see that Jesus questions them for having such thoughts of accusing him of blasphemy 

9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?  The Jews knew very well only prophets can do such miracles and receive revelation regarding someone’s sins weather they are forgiven or not at this point the Jews didn’t answer then jesus goes further to clarify the matter.

So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 

At this point the Jews could only come to the conclusion that he is a prophet of God and is the messiah to come since he showed a clear miracle and jesus questioned their evil thoughts thus Deuteronomy 13 could not be applied to him. The people praised God for seeing such a marvellous incident and knew that he is definitely prophet of God since he has God given authority like the previous prophets. 

If Jesus was God he wouldn’t question their thoughts and clarify the matter, rather he would say he is God and case closed. 

Mathew 9:

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

Mathew 9:

8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

my argument and explanation still stands as it can be seen.”

Quick footnote: notice he calls himself the “Son of Man” and says that he has the “authority TO.....” this in no why shows jesus is God as we can clearly see and in Mathew we can see that he has God-given authority.  The original incident is explained above. verse 10 was a fabrication by Paulines since they believe jesus was also God beside God Almighty thus they added verse 10 in hopes to prove it but failed miserably; as we can see Jesus was granted authority plus he calls himself “Son of Man” which is an idiom which is as explained above, this shows clearly jesus is not God.

 

Trinitarian:

“There is a lot of evidence and even the original languages to demonstrate that you are not correct”

My reply 

How ironic.... it is fair to say that he is definitely delusional rather the original language proves that he is wrong we can see many time of him taking verses and incidents out of context and misinterpreting verses.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...