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In the Name of God بسم الله

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I’ve been reading Luke’s story of Jesus recently and was interested by the last chapter.

In chapter 24 Jesus is talking to his friends after he rose from the dead.  His main topic of conversation seems to be an explanation of the Old Testament see verses 25-27

Jesus said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Then later to another group of friends in verses 44-49

Jesus said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Jesus the Messiah was very certain that the Old Testament – Moses, The Psalms and the Prophets – were about himself. 

As we read the Old Testament and the stories of Jesus with that in mind what difference will it make?

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On 6/29/2020 at 1:31 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

No where do you find that In the Prophets or the Psalms.

On 6/29/2020 at 1:31 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Then later to another group of friends in verses 44-49

He was adresssing the 12 disciples look at the context. As we can clearly see this part 

On 6/29/2020 at 1:31 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Was added by the Paulines

heres the reconstructed version

36While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.

44He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

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15 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

44He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Why were the disciples afraid when Jesus appeared? They had seen Jesus die and buried so they thought what they were seeing was a ghost.  Jesus wants them to realize that he was real and had been raised pjhysically from the dead - so he eats something.

Then he explains from the Old Testament (the Scriptures) that this was all part of God's plan.  His life, death and resurection were all foretold in the Old Testament as God's plan to restore all people into a close relationship with him.

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41 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Why were the disciples afraid when Jesus appeared? They had seen Jesus die and buried so they thought what they were seeing was a ghost.  Jesus wants them to realize that he was real and had been raised pjhysically from the dead - so he eats something

They didn’t see jesus being buried. 

Soon you will see what the truth is be patient.

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5 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

They didn’t see jesus being buried. 

Luk 23:55  The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it.

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8 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Luk 23:55  The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it.

The disciples didn’t see it.

btw this was added for theological reasons.

again be patient.

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Imam al-Rida's (a) Debate with Jathliq
 

Quote

Then Imam turned to the Catholicos and asked him: "What about your knowledge of the Book of Isaiah?"    ثم قال للجاثليق: يا نصراني، كيف علمك بكتاب شعيا عليه السلام؟
"I know it letter for letter," was the answer.    قال: أعرفه حرفا حرفاً.
The Imam addressed the Catholicos and the Exilarch and said to them: "Do you know that this (statement) is of his speech: O People, I have seen the picture of the Rider of the Donkey. He was wearing the gowns of light. And I have seen that the light of the Rider of the camel is like that of the moon."    قال لهما: أتعرفان هذا من كلامه: "يا قوم، إنّي رأيت صورة راكب الحمار لابساً جلابيب النور، ورأيت راكب البعير ضوء مثل ضوء القمر"؟
They began saying: "Isaiah did say that!"    فقالا: قد قال ذلك شعيا عليه السلام.
The Imam turned to the Catholicos and asked him: "Did you know that Jesus said: 'I am going to my Lord and your Lord, and the Paraclete is coming who shall testify to my truth just as I testified for him, and he shall explain everything to you, and he shall be the one to expose all the sins of nations, and he shall be the one to smash the pillar of unbelief.'?"    قال الرضا عليه السلام: يا نصراني، هل تعرف في الإنجيل قول عيسى عليه السلام: "إنّي ذاهب إلى ربكم وربي والبار قليطا جاء، هو الذي يشهد لي بالحق كما شهدت، وهو الذي يفسر لكم كل شيء، وهو الذي يبدأ فضائح الأمم، وهو الذي يكسر عمود الكفر".
The Catholicos became said: "We admit all what you have just quoted of the Bible."    فقال الجاثليق: ما ذكرت شيئا من الإنجيل إلا ونحن مقرّون به.
Then The Imam said: "Have you found that established in the Bible?"    فقال: أتجد هذا الإنجيل ثابتا يا جاثليق؟
"Yes," came the answer.    قال: نعم.
The Imam asked: "O Catholicos, could you tell me about the first Bible, how you lost then found it, and who put your existing Bible together?"    قال الرضا عليه السلام: يا جاثليق، ألا تخبرني عن الإنجيل الأول حين افتقدتموه عند من وجدتموه ومن وضع لكم هذا الإنجيل؟
The Catholicos said: "We did not lose the Bible except for one single day then we found it fresh; John and Matthew brought it back to us."    فقال له: ما افتقدنا الإنجيل إلا يوماً واحدا حتى وجدناه غضا طريا فأخرجه إلينا يوحنا ومتى

The Imam answered him, saying: "How little your knowledge of the Bible and its scholars is! If such is your claim, then why do you dispute with each other about the Bible? Rather, controversy has always revolved around the Bible which is in your hands today. Had it been the same as the first one, you would not have thus dispute (with one another) about it, but I shall inform you of such controversy myself: Be informed that when the first Bible was lost, the Christians gathered around their scholars and said to them: 'Jesus son of Mary has been killed, and we do not know where the Bible is. You are the scholars; so, what do you have with you?'    فقال له الرضا عليه السلام: ما أقل معرفتك بسنن الإنجيل وعلمائه؟! فإن كان هذا كما تزعم! فلم اختلفتم في الإنجيل وإنما وقع الاختلاف في هذا الإنجيل الذي في أياديكم اليوم فلو كان على العهد الأول لم تختلفوا فيه ولكني مفيدك علم ذلك اعلم أنه لما افتقد الإنجيل الأول اجتمعت النصارى إلى علمائهم فقالوا لهم: "قتل عيسى بن مريم عليه السلام وافتقدنا الإنجيل وأنتم العلماء فما عندكم؟
"Luke and Mark said to them: 'We have learned the Bible by heart; so, do not grieve in its regard, and do not forsake the churches, for we shall recite to you one Gospel after another on each Sunday till we put it all together.'"    فقال لهم الوقا ومر قابوس: إنّ الإنجيل في صدورنا ونحن نخرجه إليكم سفراً سفراً في كل أحد فلا تحزنوا عليه ولا تخلوا الكنائس فإنا سنتلوه عليكم في كل أحد سفراً سفراً حتى نجمعه كله.
The Imam added, saying: "Luke, Mark, John, and Matthew put this Bible of yours after you had lost the first (original) one. These four men were students of the early (disciples); are you aware of that?"    فقعد الوقا ومر قابوس ويوحنا ومتى فوضعوا لكم هذا الإنجيل بعد ما افتقدتم الإنجيل الأول وإنما كان هؤلاء الأربعة تلاميذ تلاميذ الأولين أعلمت ذلك؟
The Catholicos said: "This I did not know and now I have learned from you things with which I was familiar and to which my heart testifies to be the truth. I have, therefore, gained a better understanding."    فقال الجاثليق: أما هذا فلم أعلمه وقد علمته الآن وبان لي من فضل علمك بالإنجيل وسمعت أشياء مما علمته، شهد قلبي أنها حق فاستزدت كثيراً من الفهم.
...    فقال له الرضا عليه السلام: فكيف شهادة هؤلاء عندك؟
...    قال: جائزة هؤلاء علماء الإنجيلوكلما شهدوا به فهو حق..............................................................

The Imam said to him: "If so, what do you say about the testimony of Luke, Mark, and Matthew with regard to Jesus and what they had attributed to him?"    قال الرضا عليه السلام: فما تقول في شهادة ألوقا ومرقابوس ومتّى على عيسى وما نسبوه إليه؟
"They lied about him," was the answer.    قال الجاثليق: كذبوا على عيسى.
The Imam said: "People, has he not (a moment ago) testified to their truthfulness and said that they were the scholars of the Bible and what they said is the truth?"

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_al-Rida's_(a)_Debate_with_Jathliq

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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On 7/1/2020 at 10:27 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

The Imam answered him, saying: "How little your knowledge of the Bible and its scholars is!

Are these two accounts something you understand to be true?  What are thier authority?

What is your understanding of Jesus the Messiah's words that the scriptures (The books of Moses, David and the Prophets) were about him?

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On 6/30/2020 at 6:31 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I’ve been reading Luke’s story of Jesus recently and was interested by the last chapter.

In chapter 24 Jesus is talking to his friends after he rose from the dead.  His main topic of conversation seems to be an explanation of the Old Testament see verses 25-27

Jesus said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Then later to another group of friends in verses 44-49

Jesus said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Jesus the Messiah was very certain that the Old Testament – Moses, The Psalms and the Prophets – were about himself. 

As we read the Old Testament and the stories of Jesus with that in mind what difference will it make?

Nobody knows what Jesus was quoting but it's definitely not in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") nor does it appear to be in any "apocrypha" either.

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On 7/1/2020 at 8:09 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

His life, death and resurection were all foretold in the Old Testament as God's plan to restore all people into a close relationship with him.

Not exactly because God already explained this in Deuteronomy, so Jesus' actual role must be non-related to salvation and instead related to something else (hint; Anointed) 

"And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good? To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the Lord set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. Fear the Lord your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is the one you praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes. Your ancestors who went down into Egypt were seventy in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars in the sky."

- Deuteronomy 10:12-22

 

Everything Jesus, and even Paul, taught (minus the deification of Jesus which is prohibited) is contained in those words above. As the Old Testament says everywhere, God is very forgiving and just wants you to follow him. Nothing else. But Israelites kept disobeying God and giving in to idol worship and sins.

Edited by al-Muttaqin

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10 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

Nobody knows what Jesus was quoting but it's definitely not in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") nor does it appear to be in any "apocrypha" either.

Could you tell me where you found this.  There are many scholars who say that there are over 300 prophesies in the Old Testament fulfilled by Jesus take a look at this website

https://www.jesusfilm.org/blog-and-stories/old-testament-prophecies.html

The gospel writers were certain of this too and often said "This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:"

From the details of Jesus birth to they kind of life he lived, the death he died and his reserrection.

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

This is a christology insert/addition.  This is one passage where style of Greek does not match the writing style of the book in general.

I've done some research and have found no reputable scholar who sugests that the last chapter was not writen by Luke.  Please can you give me a reference that I can follow up?

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18 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I've done some research and have found no reputable scholar who sugests that the last chapter was not writen by Luke.  Please can you give me a reference that I can follow up?

A simple one is here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament#Gospel_of_Luke 

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11 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Thank you - None of the varients cited suggest a different author for chapter 24 and none of them refer to the verses where Jesus says the Scriptures speek of himself.

Even if we ignore the verses with varients we still have a story of Jesus who rose from the dead and assended into heaven.  What an amazing and unique event.  And to think that it was foretold and planed by God!

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A lot of what we can learn -since many things are kept confused- depends on the who-wrote/what you read.

To give you an example, see  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm   drop down to Chapter 4 Nos. 7 & 8.

For a small info into what had to be sorted out in the 4th Century, see: https://www.bible-researcher.com/eusebius.html 

Edited by hasanhh

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On 7/4/2020 at 7:12 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Are these two accounts something you understand to be true?  What are thier authority?

Hi it's a very long hadith that Imam Reza (عليه السلام) debated with most knowledgeable Rabbis &  Catholicos & Zororastrians & Sabains of his time in presence  Mamun Abbassid king & bring all of evidences from their books as Catholicos witnessed  that he read & mentioned all of their books in same way that Jesus [prophet Isa(as)] said to his apostles without  any distortion  & deluding  it that I can't  find a full translation  of it from Arabic to other languages   in  English but some parts of it like this part that I posted translated into English recently .

that you can find full narration  in following  link that translated  into Farsi 

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/226068/جاثلیق?rownumber=1

Quote

 اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ جَالِسٌ مَعَ اَلْمَأْمُونِ حَتَّى أَمَرَهُمْ بِالْجُلُوسِ فَجَلَسُوا فَلَمْ يَزَلِ اَلْمَأْمُونُ مُقْبِلاً عَلَيْهِ يُحَدِّثُهُ سَاعَةً ثُمَّ اِلْتَفَتَ إِلَى اَلْجَاثَلِيقِ فَقَالَ يَا جَاثَلِيقُ هَذَا اِبْنُ عَمِّي عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ وَ هُوَ مِنْ وُلْدِ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتِ نَبِيِّنَا وَ اِبْنُ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ صَلَوَاتُ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِمَا فَأُحِبُّ أَنْ تُكَلِّمَهُ وَ تُحَاجَّهُ وَ تُنْصِفَهُ فَقَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ يَا أَمِيرَ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ كَيْفَ أُحَاجُّ رَجُلاً يَحْتَجُّ عَلَيَّ بِكِتَابٍ أَنَا مُنْكِرُهُ وَ نَبِيٍّ لاَ أُومِنُ بِهِ فَقَالَ لَهُ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ يَا نَصْرَانِيُّ فَإِنِ اِحْتَجَجْتُ عَلَيْكَ بِإِنْجِيلِكَ أَ تُقِرُّ بِهِ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ وَ هَلْ أَقْدِرُ عَلَى دَفْعِ مَا نَطَقَ بِهِ اَلْإِنْجِيلُ نَعَمْ وَ اَللَّهِ أُقِرُّ بِهِ عَلَى رَغْمِ أَنْفِي فَقَالَ لَهُ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ سَلْ عَمَّا بَدَا لَكَ وَ اِفْهَمِ اَلْجَوَابَ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ مَا تَقُولُ فِي نُبُوَّةِ عِيسَى وَ كِتَابِهِ هَلْ تُنْكِرُ مِنْهُمَا شَيْئاً قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ أَنَا مُقِرٌّ بِنُبُوَّةِ عِيسَى وَ كِتَابِهِ وَ مَا بَشَّرَ بِهِ أُمَّتَهُ وَ أَقَرَّتْ بِهِ اَلْحَوَارِيُّونَ وَ كَافِرٌ بِنُبُوَّةِ كُلِّ عِيسَى لَمْ يُقِرَّ بِنُبُوَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ وَ بِكِتَابِهِ وَ لَمْ يُبَشِّرْ بِهِ أُمَّتَهُ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ أَ لَيْسَ إِنَّمَا تُقْطَعُ اَلْأَحْكَامُ بِشَاهِدَيْ عَدْلٍ قَالَ بَلَى قَالَ فَأَقِمْ شَاهِدَيْنِ مِنْ غَيْرِ أَهْلِ مِلَّتِكَ عَلَى نُبُوَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ مِمَّنْ لاَ تُنْكِرُهُ اَلنَّصْرَانِيَّةُ وَ سَلْنَا مِثْلَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ غَيْرِ أَهْلِ مِلَّتِنَا قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ اَلْآنَ جِئْتَ بِالنَّصَفَةِ يَا نَصْرَانِيُّ أَ لاَ تَقْبَلُ مِنِّي اَلْعَدْلَ اَلْمُقَدَّمَ عِنْدَ اَلْمَسِيحِ عِيسَى بْنِ مَرْيَمَ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ مَنْ هَذَا اَلْعَدْلُ سَمِّهِ لِي قَالَ مَا تَقُولُ فِي يُوحَنَّا اَلدَّيْلَمِيِّ قَالَ بَخْ بَخْ ذَكَرْتَ أَحَبَّ اَلنَّاسِ إِلَى اَلْمَسِيحِ قَالَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ فَأَقْسَمْتُ عَلَيْكَ هَلْ نَطَقَ اَلْإِنْجِيلُ أَنَّ يُوحَنَّا قَالَ إِنَّ اَلْمَسِيحَ أَخْبَرَنِي بِدِينِ مُحَمَّدٍ اَلْعَرَبِيِّ وَ بَشَّرَنِي بِهِ أَنَّهُ يَكُونُ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ فَبَشَّرْتُ بِهِ اَلْحَوَارِيِّينَ فَآمَنُوا بِهِ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ قَدْ ذَكَرَ ذَلِكَ يُوحَنَّا عَنِ اَلْمَسِيحِ وَ بَشَّرَ بِنُبُوَّةِ رَجُلٍ وَ بِأَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ وَ وَصِيِّهِ وَ لَمْ يُلَخِّصْ مَتَى يَكُونُ ذَلِكَ وَ لَمْ يُسَمِّ لَنَا اَلْقَوْمَ فَنَعْرِفَهُمْ قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ فَإِنْ جِئْنَاكَ بِمَنْ يَقْرَأُ اَلْإِنْجِيلَ فَتَلاَ عَلَيْكَ ذِكْرَ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ وَ أُمَّتِهِ أَ تُؤْمِنُ بِهِ قَالَ شَدِيداً قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ لِنِسْطَاسَ اَلرُّومِيِّ كَيْفَ حِفْظُكَ لِلسِّفْرِ اَلثَّالِثِ مِنَ اَلْإِنْجِيلِ قَالَ مَا أَحْفَظَنِي لَهُ ثُمَّ اِلْتَفَتَ إِلَى رَأْسِ اَلْجَالُوتِ فَقَالَ أَ لَسْتَ تَقْرَأُ اَلْإِنْجِيلَ قَالَ بَلَى لَعَمْرِي قَالَ فَخُذْ عَلَى اَلسِّفْرِ اَلثَّالِثِ فَإِنْ كَانَ فِيهِ ذِكْرُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ وَ أُمَّتِهِ فَاشْهَدُوا لِي وَ إِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ فِيهِ ذِكْرُهُ فَلاَ تَشْهَدُوا لِي ثُمَّ قَرَأَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ اَلسِّفْرَ اَلثَّالِثَ حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ ذِكْرَ اَلنَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ وَقَفَ ثُمَّ قَالَ يَا نَصْرَانِيُّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ بِحَقِّ اَلْمَسِيحِ وَ أُمِّهِ أَ تَعْلَمُ أَنِّي عَالِمٌ بِالْإِنْجِيلِ قَالَ نَعَمْ ثُمَّ تَلاَ عَلَيْنَا ذِكْرَ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ وَ أُمَّتِهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ مَا تَقُولُ يَا نَصْرَانِيُّ هَذَا قَوْلُ عِيسَى اِبْنِ مَرْيَمَ فَإِنْ كَذَّبْتَ مَا يَنْطِقُ بِهِ اَلْإِنْجِيلُ فَقَدْ كَذَّبْتَ مُوسَى وَ عِيسَى عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلاَمُ وَ مَتَى أَنْكَرْتَ هَذَا اَلذِّكْرَ وَجَبَ عَلَيْكَ اَلْقَتْلُ لِأَنَّكَ تَكُونُ قَدْ كَفَرْتَ بِرَبِّكَ وَ بِنَبِيِّكَ وَ بِكِتَابِكَ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ لاَ أُنْكِرُ مَا قَدْ بَانَ لِي فِي اَلْإِنْجِيلِ وَ إِنِّي لَمُقِرٌّ بِهِ قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ اِشْهَدُوا عَلَى إِقْرَارِهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ يَا جَاثَلِيقُ سَلْ عَمَّا بَدَا لَكَ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ أَخْبِرْنِي عَنْ حَوَارِيِّ عِيسَى اِبْنِ مَرْيَمَ كَمْ كَانَ عِدَّتُهُمْ وَ عَنْ عُلَمَاءِ اَلْإِنْجِيلِ كَمْ كَانُوا قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ عَلَى اَلْخَبِيرِ سَقَطْتَ أَمَّا اَلْحَوَارِيُّونَ فَكَانُوا اِثْنَيْ عَشَرَ رَجُلاً وَ كَانَ أَفْضَلُهُمْ وَ أَعْلَمُهُمْ أَلُوقَا وَ أَمَّا عُلَمَاءُ اَلنَّصَارَى فَكَانُوا ثَلاَثَةَ رِجَالٍ يُوحَنَّا اَلْأَكْبَرُ بِأَجٍّ وَ يُوحَنَّا بِقِرْقِيسَا وَ يُوحَنَّا اَلدَّيْلَمِيُّ بِزجار وَ عِنْدَهُ كَانَ ذِكْرُ اَلنَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ وَ ذِكْرُ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ وَ أُمَّتِهِ وَ هُوَ اَلَّذِي بَشَّرَ أُمَّةَ عِيسَى وَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ بِهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ يَا نَصْرَانِيُّ وَ اَللَّهِ إِنَّا لَنُؤْمِنُ بِعِيسَى اَلَّذِي آمَنَ بِمُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ وَ مَا نَنْقِمُ عَلَى عِيسَاكُمْ شَيْئاً إِلاَّ ضَعْفَهُ وَ قِلَّةَ صِيَامِهِ وَ صَلاَتِهِ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ أَفْسَدْتَ وَ اَللَّهِ عِلْمَكَ وَ ضَعَّفْتَ أَمْرَكَ وَ مَا كُنْتُ ظَنَنْتُ إِلاَّ أَنَّكَ أَعْلَمُ أَهْلِ اَلْإِسْلاَمِ قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ وَ كَيْفَ ذَاكَ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ مِنْ قَوْلِكِ إِنَّ عِيسَى كَانَ ضَعِيفاً قَلِيلَ اَلصِّيَامِ قَلِيلَ اَلصَّلاَةِ وَ مَا أَفْطَرَ عِيسَى يَوْماً قَطُّ وَ لاَ نَامَ بِلَيْلٍ قَطُّ وَ مَا زَالَ صَائِمَ اَلدَّهْرِ قَائِمَ اَللَّيْلِ قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ فَلِمَنْ كَانَ يَصُومُ وَ يُصَلِّي قَالَ فَخَرِسَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ وَ اِنْقَطَعَ قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ يَا نَصْرَانِيُّ أَسْأَلُكَ عَنْ مَسْأَلَةٍ قَالَ سَلْ فَإِنْ كَانَ عِنْدِي عِلْمُهَا أَجَبْتُكَ قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ مَا أَنْكَرْتَ أَنَّ عِيسَى كَانَ يُحْيِي اَلْمَوْتَى بِإِذْنِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ قَالَ اَلْجَاثَلِيقُ أَنْكَرْتُ ذَلِكَ مِنْ قِبَلِ أَنَّ مَنْ أَحْيَا اَلْمَوْتَى وَ أَبْرَأَ اَلْأَكْمَهَ وَ اَلْأَبْرَصَ فَهُوَ رَبٌّ مُسْتَحِقٌّ لِأَنْ يُعْبَدَ قَالَ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ فَإِنَّ اَلْيَسَعَ قَدْ صَنَعَ مِثْلَ مَا صَنَعَ عِيسَى مَشَى عَلَى اَلْمَاءِ وَ أَحْيَا اَلْمَوْتَى وَ أَبْرَأَ اَلْأَكْمَهَ وَ اَلْأَبْرَصَ فَلَمْ تَتَّخِذْهُ أُمَّتُهُ رَبّاً وَ لَمْ يَعْبُدْهُ أَحَدٌ مِنْ دُونِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ لَقَدْ صَنَعَ حِزْقِيلُ اَلنَّبِيُّ مِثْلَ مَا صَنَعَ عِيسَى اِبْنُ مَرْيَمَ فَأَحْيَا خَمْسَةً وَ ثَلاَثِينَ أَلْفَ رَجُلٍ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَوْتِهِمْ بِسِتِّينَ سَنَةً

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/226068/جاثلیق?rownumber=1

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The Imam said: "Now, you have brought justice. Do you not accept from me the just one who was given preference (over the others) by Jesus, son of Mary (al-Masih b. Maryam)?" قال الرضا عليه السلام: الآن جئت بالنصفة ـ يا نصراني ـ ألا تقبل مني العدل المقدم عند المسيح عيسى بن مريم عليه السلام؟
The Catholicos said: "Who is the just one? Name him for me." قال الجاثليق: ومن هذا العدل؟ سمّه لي.

The Imam said: "What is your view of John (Yuhanna al-Daylami)?".....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Dailam

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_al-Rida's_(a)_Debate_with_Jathliq

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........

The Imam asked him: "If we bring you someone who recites the Bible and recites to you Muhammad's name, his Household, and his community, then will you believe him?"

 

 

قال الرضا عليه السلام: فإن جئناك بمن يقرأ الإنجيل فتلا عليك

 

ذكر محمد و أهل بيته وأمته أتؤمن به؟

"A sound suggestion," the Catholicos answered. قال: سديداً.
The Imam turned to Nestus, the Roman, and asked Him: "Have you memorized the third Book of the Bible?" قال الرضا عليه السلام: لنسطاس الرومي: كيف حفظك للسفر الثالث الإنجيل.
"I have thoroughly memorized it," was the answer. قال: ما احفظني له.
The Imam addressed the Exilarch (Ra's al-Jalut), saying: "Don't you recite the Bible?" ثم التفت إلى رأس الجالوت فقال: ألست تقرأ الإنجيل؟
"Yes," he said. قال: بلى لعمْري.
The Imam said: "Therefore (I will) recite to you (some verses from) the third Book. If Muhammad, his Household, and his community has been mentioned in it, then bear witness to me? If they have not been mentioned wherein, then do not bear witness to me." قال: فخذ على السفر فإن كان فيه ذكر محمد وأهل بيته وأمته فاشهدوا لي، وإن لم يكن فيه ذكره فلا تشهدوا لي.
The Imam recited to him some verses from the third Book. When he reached the reference to the Prophet, he turned to the Catholicos and asked him: "I challenge you to swear by Jesus and his mother, did you know that I had knowledge of the Bible?" ثم قرأ عليه السلام السفر الثالث حتى بلغ ذكر النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وقف ثم قال: يا نصراني، إني أسألك بحق المسيح وأمه: أتعلم أني عالم بالإنجيل؟
"Yes," came the answer. قال: نعم.
The Imam recited to him some verses from the third Book concerning the reference to the Prophet, his Household, and his community. Then he asked him: "What is your view? This is the statement of Jesus, son of Mary. If you deny what the Bible says, then you will deny Moses and Jesus. If you deny them, then it is obligatory (on people) to kill you, for you have denied your Lord, your Prophet, and your Book." ثم تلا علينا ذكر محمد وأهل بيته وأمته، ثم قال: ما تقول يا نصراني، هذا قول عيسى مريم عليه السلام، فإن كذّبت بما ينطق به الإنجيل فقد كذّبت موسى وعيسى مريم (عليهما السلام) ومتى أنكرت هذا الذكر وجب عليك القتل لأنك تكون قد كفرت بربك ونبيك وبكتابك.
The Catholicos said: "I do not deny the clear things in the Bible; rather I admit them." قال الجاثليق: لا أنكر ما قد بان لي في الإنجيل إنّي لمقرّ به.
The Imam said: ... قال الرضا عليه السلام: اشهدوا على إقراره.
then he said: "O Catholicos, ask me whatever you desire." ثم قال: يا جاثليق سل عما بدا لك.

The Catholicos said: "Tell me about the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary: How many were they? (Tell me) about the scholars of the Bible: How many were they?"

.......

قال الجاثليق: أخبرني عن حواري عيسى بن مريم عليه السلام كم كان عدتهم؟ وعن علماء الإنجيل كم كانوا؟

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_al-Rida's_(a)_Debate_with_Jathliq

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/226068

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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10 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

https://www.jesusfilm.org/blog-and-stories/old-testament-prophecies.html

The gospel writers were certain of this too and often said "This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:"

hi we belive that until no 29 will fulfill after his second coming besid Imam Mahdi (aj) & about sacrificing him for god surelly Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام) faced suffering  with thirs & his bones was broken by riding horses that had new horseshoes  & his enemies stole his clothes even they cut his finger to steal his ring & he left his family & close relatives in hands of enemy to sacrifice  himself for sake of Allah /God & his blood spilled  on earth of Euphrates that he will resurrect after reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) & second  coming  of Jesus that he & a part   of his resurrected companions  like his brother Abbas (عليه السلام) will resurrect with double  sided golden helmets. 

and about no.8 based on shia narrations  Jesus was born in current location of Buratha mosque in Baghdad that there is a white stone that said Imam Ali(عليه السلام) said that his mother virging lady Mary (عليه السلام) put him on this stone after birth and there is a well that digged in place of spring by order of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) that mother of Jesus  drank from it after birth of Jesus  that story of spring mentioned  in holy Quran 

300px-%D8%B3%D9%86%DA%AF_%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7.jpg  300px-%DA%86%D8%A7%D9%87_%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7.jpg

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/پرونده:سنگ_براثا.jpg

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/براثا

Quote

Masjid Buratha in Baghdad
One of the famous mosques of Baghdad, the Buratha Mosque is situated on the road between Baghdad and Kazimiyyah. In his book of Mu’jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, one of the historians of the fifth century, has referred to this mosque. Likewise, traditions reported from the Ahl al-Bayt (‘a) have referred to this mosque. Shaykh al-Qummi, in his book of Mafatih al-Jinan,4 has also mentioned this mosque and its merits with some details.
Let us now cite a tradition that is reported by Shaykh al-Saduq, in man-la-yahdhuruhu’l-faqih and Shaykh al-Tusi, in Tahdhib al-Ahkam, on the authority of Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah al-Ansari, the magnificent companion of the Holy Prophet (S): Upon his return from fighting the evil forces, Imam ‘Ali (‘a) led about one hundred thousand men in a congregational prayer at Buratha. Upon completion, a Christian man came out from his hermitage and asked about the commander-in-chief of our army. He was thus led to Imam ‘Ali (‘a).
“Are you a prophet, sir?” asked the Christian.
“No, I am not,” answered Imam ‘Ali (‘a), “the prophet, who is my master, has died.”
“So, you are a prophet’s successor, are you not?” asked the man.
“Yes, I am,” answered Imam ‘Ali (‘a) and asked the man to sit with him, “Why have you asked these questions?” asked Imam ‘Ali (‘a).
The man explained, “This hermitage was established here because of this place, which is Buratha. In the divinely revealed books, I have read that no one except a prophet or a prophet’s successor would lead such a group in a prayer at this place. I have just come to declare my conversion to Islam.”
So, the man became a Muslim and accompanied us to Kufah. On their way, Imam ‘Ali (‘a) asked him, “Do you know who offered prayers at this place?”
“Jesus and his mother (‘a) did,” answered the man.
“May I tell you more,” suggested Imam ‘Ali (‘a).
“Yes, please,” answered the man.
“The Friend of Allah (i.e. Prophet Abraham (S)) also offered prayers at this place,” informed Imam ‘Ali (‘a).5

5. - Al-Hurr al-’Amili, Wasa’il al-Shi’ah 3:549, H. 1.

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=13360

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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12 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Could you tell me where you found this.  There are many scholars who say that there are over 300 prophesies in the Old Testament fulfilled by Jesus take a look at this website

https://www.jesusfilm.org/blog-and-stories/old-testament-prophecies.html

The gospel writers were certain of this too and often said "This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:"

From the details of Jesus birth to they kind of life he lived, the death he died and his reserrection.

No, I mean the passage (Luke 24:44-49) that Jesus quotes is not in the Old Testament at all, nor is it in any known apocrypha. 

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On 6/30/2020 at 11:34 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Jesus being saved from the crucifixion Psalms and the prophets, about the Jesus’ gospel and coming, Torah and the prophets. And about the second coming the Prophets and the Psalms.

What was Jesus' gospel about?

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12 hours ago, flyingeagle said:

What was Jesus' gospel about?

From the Gospel of John chapter 4: 

“Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

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John 12:44-50:

Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Also, verse 45 there "the one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me" is not claiming deity or co-equality with God, it is just Jesus expressing Wajh'Allah (the face of God), which in both Shi'ism and Sufism is understood to be the Prophets and the Ahlulbayt. There is nothing controversial to that statement because it just is affirming the way that Prophets and Messengers are the Khalifa of God on earth, just as Prophet Adam ((عليه السلام).) is described all throughout the Holy Qur'an.

Edited by al-Muttaqin

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What Jesus' mission was according to the New Testament Gospels was to unveil the Batin of the Torah to the Jews who were only reading the Zahir of the Torah and continuing to break the Covenant they have made with God (which is still binding after Jesus, because Jesus didn't break that covenant at all). Jesus brought the Batin of the Torah in a manner as found in texts like the Wisdom of Solomon and the Book of Sirach from the Old Testament, as well as the oracles of the Prophet Isaiah. 

The heart of everything the Jesus of the New Testament preached can already be found boundlessly in the Book of Deuteronomy (the Book of Moses, after several recensions). Jesus taught nothing new, he only clarified and brought this mystical awareness to the forefront. He chastised the Jews of his time, both Sadducees and Pharisees. 

It is true though that Jesus is an intercessor in the day of judgement, this is not denied and the Qur'an confirms this in Surah an-Nisa, Surah al-Ma'ida, etc.

Judeo-Christian texts are not directly from God (most are written by scribes and historians) but they aren't completely false. One must take them for what they are nothing more or less.  

The Four New Testament Gospels don't confirm deity of Jesus anymore than our own Hadith do to the Ahlulbayt. Someone who lacks any knowledge of the Batin will say "Jesus is God" or "Ali is God" and then worship them, such people are ignorant idiots. Such language has to be used. 

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On 7/14/2020 at 1:06 PM, flyingeagle said:

What was Jesus' gospel about?

You tell me, what was Jesus message about ? Clearly there’s no gospel of Jesus rather there are biographies of Jesus.

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On 7/15/2020 at 4:43 AM, THREE1THREE said:

You tell me, what was Jesus message about ? Clearly there’s no gospel of Jesus rather there are biographies of Jesus. 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3:16-17).  As you say, Jesus is the Messiah of Israel.  But more than that, he is the Messiah of the whole world.  He came to save all of humanity from their sinful nature.  He preached repentance of sins, as you say, but he also forgave sins.  To those who believed in him, he answered them, "Your sins are forgiven" (Luke 7:48-49, Matt. 9:1-3).  This astonished the Jews, who followed the Torah religiously.  Who has the authority to forgive sins?  Only God alone.  Therefore they called him a blasphemer.  Even those Jews who followed all of the rules of the law were still found unclean in the presence of God: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean" (Matt. 23:27).  Jesus' message was not one of turning back to the old Law, but creating a new covenant, in which through his life, death, and resurrection, those who put their faith in him would be forgiven of their sins and be able to live with God for eternity.  “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22:20).

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11 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

What Jesus' mission was according to the New Testament Gospels was to unveil the Batin of the Torah to the Jews who were only reading the Zahir of the Torah and continuing to break the Covenant they have made with God (which is still binding after Jesus, because Jesus didn't break that covenant at all). Jesus brought the Batin of the Torah in a manner as found in texts like the Wisdom of Solomon and the Book of Sirach from the Old Testament, as well as the oracles of the Prophet Isaiah. 

The heart of everything the Jesus of the New Testament preached can already be found boundlessly in the Book of Deuteronomy (the Book of Moses, after several recensions). Jesus taught nothing new, he only clarified and brought this mystical awareness to the forefront. He chastised the Jews of his time, both Sadducees and Pharisees. 

It is true though that Jesus is an intercessor in the day of judgement, this is not denied and the Qur'an confirms this in Surah an-Nisa, Surah al-Ma'ida, etc.

Judeo-Christian texts are not directly from God (most are written by scribes and historians) but they aren't completely false. One must take them for what they are nothing more or less.  

The Four New Testament Gospels don't confirm deity of Jesus anymore than our own Hadith do to the Ahlulbayt. Someone who lacks any knowledge of the Batin will say "Jesus is God" or "Ali is God" and then worship them, such people are ignorant idiots. Such language has to be used. 

Thank you for your explanation al-Muttaqin.  That really helped me to understand.  How was Jesus different from the prophets who came before?

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18 hours ago, flyingeagle said:

But more than that, he is the Messiah of the whole world.  He came to save all of humanity from their sinful nature.  He preached repentance of sins, as you say, but he also forgave sins.  To those who believed in him, he answered them, "Your sins are forgiven" (Luke 7:48-49, Matt. 9:1-3).  This astonished the Jews, who followed the Torah religiously.  Who has the authority to forgive sins?  Only God alone.  Therefore they called him a blasphemer. 

1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7Then the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

 

Trinitarian4:

“Here's another case, similar to the discussed above, in which Jesus is distinguished from both mankind, as well as any prophet, in that Jesus displays the power to forgive sin, which is otherwise considered to be an act of God by those who disbelieved.

Mark 2:1-11”

Reply 

Monotheist:

You neglect all clear arguments and verses which over weight ur wishful thinking yet you are still holding on to a thin string.

Mark 2:

 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

verse 10 was added by Paulines and another thing, Jesus calls himself then “Son of Man” which is an idiom for “Human” expressing “I am human” 

ur Christian bible translations the idiom in Numbers 23:19 as “human”, instead of translating the idiom they explain the idiom. 

As for that incident we see jesus giving the paralyzed man good knews by saying, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The Jews thought  of him being blasphemous saying such things 

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 

over here we can see that Jesus questions them for having such thoughts of accusing him of blasphemy 

9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?  The Jews knew very well only prophets can do such miracles and receive revelation regarding someone’s sins weather they are forgiven or not at this point the Jews didn’t answer then jesus goes further to clarify the matter.

So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 

At this point the Jews could only come to the conclusion that he is a prophet of God and is the messiah to come since he showed a clear miracle and jesus questioned their evil thoughts thus Deuteronomy 13 could not be applied to him. The people praised God for seeing such a marvellous incident and knew that he is definitely prophet of God since he has God given authority like the previous prophets. 

If Jesus was God he wouldn’t question their thoughts and clarify the matter, rather he would say he is God and case closed. 

Mathew 9:

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

Mathew 9:

8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

my argument and explanation still stands as it can be seen.”

Quick footnote: notice he calls himself the “Son of Man” and says that he has the “authority TO.....” this in no why shows jesus is God as we can clearly see and in Mathew we can see that he has God-given authority.  The original incident is explained above. verse 10 was a fabrication by Paulines since they believe jesus was also God beside God Almighty thus they added verse 10 in hopes to prove it but failed miserably; as we can see Jesus was granted authority plus he calls himself “Son of Man” which is an idiom which is as explained above, this shows clearly jesus is not God.-(Trinitarian Fantasies thread) 

18 hours ago, flyingeagle said:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean" (Matt. 23:27). 

1. Jesus is speaking in parables 

2. He is speaking about the sincerity of the Pharisees, they are simply acting “righteous” to show off while they have evil thoughts inside hearts. 

3.typical ani-Semitism from a trinitarian, now ironic. 

18 hours ago, flyingeagle said:

Jesus' message was not one of turning back to the old Law, but creating a new covenant, in which through his life, death, and resurrection, those who put their faith in him would be forgiven of their sins and be able to live with God for eternity. 

Mathew 5:17-20

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

in Mathew 6 and 7 Jesus teaches how to surpass the Pharisees.

Mathew 7:23-27

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

 

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 

the one who practices Jesus teachings when they face trails and calamties they will know how to encounter them because through practicing the law they gained wisdom and power to encounter such calamties and trails and will not go astray and fall into depression. 

26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

the person who does not put jesus teachings into practice will not know how to encounter trails and calamties because he did gain the power and wisdom through the law to encounter such trails and calamties, thus he will go astray and fall into depression. 

John 15:10

Jesus was in his final moment with his disciples and he makes clear if you remain in the God’s love then hold on to His commandments and if wanna remain in Jesus love then hold to his commandments which he preached which were God’s commands preached through him.

 

Trinitarian:

“God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.  Simply forgiving sin does not take care of the problem of sin.”

“God does something with our sin.  All the injustices and horrible acts including the ones you and I have done (even with our thoughts) do not just disappear into thin air.  The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people’

“On certain conditions like the OT unlike your God who simply forgives people by commiting suicide. Look at the double standards. And lack of Logic.”

‘God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.’

“Hence why God says in Deuteronomy 8:5-6 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.

6And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to go in His ways, and to fear Him.”

Unlike ur God who simply forgives by committing suicide.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“Suicide is taking a life away by someone who has no right to take that life away.  Only the creator has that right.  Suicide is selfish and is an ultimate lack of faith (I do feel for those who are going through depression and stuff that would lead to suicide because I know it's very hard).  God has every right to give his life as he pleases because it's his life and he is God and creator.  It's not selfish because he knows he's the best thing for humanity and his act is saving humanity.  Big difference here.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You know very well you are running away from your double standards. Ur God simply forgives by killing himself no sense of justice whatsoever. 

When a killer does something in real life yous all voice out demanding justice and he should be sent to jail but when he is released from court yous all get angry and question the courts sense of justice.” -(Trinitarian fantasies thread)

 

james 2:8-11

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

James 2:14-19

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Paul believes the Law is a curse. 

 

Psalms 19:8 

“8The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.

 

Read the Thread “Trinitarians fantasies”

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3 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

 

The Jews thought  of him being blasphemous saying such things 

over here we can see that Jesus questions them for having such thoughts of accusing him of blasphemy 

9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?  The Jews knew very well only prophets can do such miracles and receive revelation regarding someone’s sins weather they are forgiven or not at this point the Jews didn’t answer then jesus goes further to clarify the matter.

At this point the Jews could only come to the conclusion that he is a prophet of God and is the messiah to come since he showed a clear miracle and jesus questioned their evil thoughts thus Deuteronomy 13 could not be applied to him. The people praised God for seeing such a marvellous incident and knew that he is definitely prophet of God since he has God given authority like the previous prophets. 

If Jesus was God he wouldn’t question their thoughts and clarify the matter, rather he would say he is God and case closed. 

my argument and explanation still stands as it can be seen.”

Quick footnote: notice he calls himself the “Son of Man” and says that he has the “authority TO.....” this in no why shows jesus is God as we can clearly see and in Mathew we can see that he has God-given authority.  The original incident is explained above. verse 10 was a fabrication by Paulines since they believe jesus was also God beside God Almighty thus they added verse 10 in hopes to prove it but failed miserably; as we can see Jesus was granted authority plus he calls himself “Son of Man” which is an idiom which is as explained above, this shows clearly jesus is not God.-(Trinitarian Fantasies thread) 

Mathew 5:17-20

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

in Mathew 6 and 7 Jesus teaches how to surpass the Pharisees.

Mathew 7:23-27

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

 

Thanks for your reply! What I hear you saying is:

1. Jesus called himself the Son of Man, meaning "human," and did not say, "I am God," in order to shut down the accusations of the Pharisees, demonstrating that he was just a human prophet.

2. Mark 2:10: "But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins," was added by Paulines and is therefore irrelevant.

3. Many times in the New Testament Jesus and other teachers emphasize that one loves God by obeying his commandments, proving that Jesus' message was one of reemphasizing the heart of the Old Covenant and returning to faithfulness to the Jewish Law, rather than destroying it.

Please let me know if I have misrepresented or misunderstood any part of your response.

1. I completely agree that Jesus is human.  However, he is also divine.  He called himself the Son of Man, which recalls the hearers to Daniel:

"and behold, with the clouds of heaven
    there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
    and was presented before him.
 And to him was given dominion
    and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
    should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
    that shall not be destroyed" (Dan. 7:13-14). 

Jesus was not only declaring himself human, but invoking the authority of God.  He is not only fully human, but also fully God.

The argument that Jesus did not say, "I am God," in order to dispel their accusations of blasphemy could also be applied the opposite way.  He never said, "I am not God. Do not worship me." 

2. What is the evidence that verse 10 was added by Paulines? The same verse is found in Matthew 9:4.

3. I completely agree that Jesus came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.  I also agree that following the commandments of the law demonstrates one's love for God.  The difference, I think, between our perspectives is that I do not believe that anyone can be righteous before God based on their own actions, because, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" (James 2:10).  We all have broken at least one part of the law, and therefore have broken all of it.  Since we have broken the covenant with God, therefore, God has made a new covenant through Jesus. 

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

I really admire your dedication to following God's commandments.  I think that many Christians could learn from you in that respect.  However, the difference between our beliefs is that by following God's commandments those who follow Jesus are not trying to appease God or make themselves righteous.  We follow his commandments out of an overflow of gratefulness, love, and dedication towards him after we have already been made pure through Jesus, who is the only human who perfectly upheld the law.  In his death he also took upon himself the punishment for our sins, so we do not have to be afraid of judgement.  He rose from the dead, declaring himself to be the Son of God and proclaiming victory over sin and death, so that all who believe in him can share in his victory through eternal life.  We, therefore, do not have to be afraid of punishment, do not have to live in terror that we have broken the commandments of God and that our good works do not measure up.  We are free to obey God because he has already forgiven us.

Paul, in fact, had a very high view of the law:

"Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:27-31). 

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6 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

What is neglected in chr!stian discussions of these verses is answering the question: Did lsa -(عليه السلام). know whether the man was more worried about his past than his physical condition?

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16 hours ago, hasanhh said:

What is neglected in chr!stian discussions of these verses is answering the question: Did lsa -(عليه السلام). know whether the man was more worried about his past than his physical condition?

Jesus can be granted foreknowledge from Allah like previous prophets. But the incident doesn’t show Jesus knowing the concearns of the man rather he revealed a revelation from God to the the man. 

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On 7/16/2020 at 6:56 AM, flyingeagle said:

Thank you for your explanation al-Muttaqin.  That really helped me to understand.  How was Jesus different from the prophets who came before?

Well, Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was different in the combination of natures he shared. Each element of him was like different aspects of Old Testament Prophets but his most notable aspects were that he was born of a virgin by the holy spirit (analogous to but not identical to the creation of Adam, both being created by the Spirit, one from dust and the other from a virgin's womb). 

Jesus' teachings were the Batin of the Old Testament, namely the Torah, Isaiah and the Psalms (the three most oft-quoted in the NT). His role was akin to our Shi'i Imams in so many ways. However unlike most Prophets, like a select few (other than Jesus; Enoch and Elijah) he was taken to heaven. The words, parables and metaphors of Jesus commonly either reference or interpolate things from Isaiah, Proverbs, Psalms, Sirach and the Wisdom of Solomon. It's important because there is an outgrowth of innate hidden wisdom there which Jesus had to bring to the forefront. 

Socially and politically, his role according to the NT texts was really to shake the foundations of the Pharisees and Sadducees, such exchanges are very heated. 

As for crucifixion, I don't really care about the polemical argumentation between the New Testament death narrative of Jesus and common interpretations of Surah 4:157, but the key point is that he was taken directly to heaven and never went back to the dust (again, like Enoch and Elijah).

His historiological and eschatological role seems to be as a tool for the diverse converging of traditions and cultures over time, the event of Islam in this case brings back Judaism and Christianity back together (even though it is reluctant and heated between them both). The Biblical and Qur'anic metaphor used here is a seed growing shoots, though it's reality is really the opposite being diverse shoots coming back to it's seed of unity, in the Islamic view being the primordial Deen of Adam via the lineage of Abraham (to which even Paul in your NT emphasizes, oddly enough). 

There is a lot to the topic, on many levels. 

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On 7/16/2020 at 6:34 PM, THREE1THREE said:

“On certain conditions like the OT unlike your God who simply forgives people by commiting suicide. Look at the double standards. And lack of Logic.”

Hi Allah/God never forgives people that are committing suicide & your statement is a blatant lie that based on evangelist propaganda against Quran & Islam.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 AM, flyingeagle said:

1. I completely agree that Jesus is human.  However, he is also divine.  He called himself the Son of Man, which recalls the hearers to Daniel:

"and behold, with the clouds of heaven
    there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
    and was presented before him.
 And to him was given dominion
    and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
    should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
    that shall not be destroyed" (Dan. 7:13-14).

Notice it says, “one like a son of man” the idiom son of man I means “human” “like a son of man” is an emphasis that this messianic figure is a mere human just like previous messianic figures. 

 

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 AM, flyingeagle said:

Jesus was not only declaring himself human, but invoking the authority of God.  He is not only fully human, but also fully God.

You can’t be Omnipresent and not omnipresent at  the exact same time, omnipotent and not omnipotent at the exact same time, Omniscient and not Omniscient at exact same time. It’s illogical and irrational.

2 chronicles 2:5

“And who can gather up strength to build Him a House, for the heavens and the heavens of the heavens cannot contain Him, and who am I that I should build Him a House, only to burn incense before Him.”

2 chronicles 6:18

18But will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? Behold the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You; much less this House that I have built.

Numbers 23:19  

God is not a man, that he should lie, not a Son of Man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?”

these are sufficient verses I don’t need to go into more verses and details. 

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 AM, flyingeagle said:

The argument that Jesus did not say, "I am God," in order to dispel their accusations of blasphemy could also be applied the opposite way.  He never said, "I am not God. Do not worship me." 

He does deny being God. 

Trinitarian:

“In John 8 and 10, no Jesus is not trying to prove that he is not God.  That's not the point of the writer, the book or the New Testament.”

 

Reply 

 

Monotheist: 

“according to your wishful thinking.

John 10:

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

As can be seen from John 10:28 and John 10:29 Jesus was telling the Jews that he and God share something in common, and it was: no one can pluck the faithful from either of their hands. This was the common factor between Jesus and God in this case, and not that Jesus was himself God, or that they were exactly the same.

John 10:30 

30I and the Father are one.”

then Jews took this part of out of context and started to stone him

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father(GOD). For which of these do you stone me?”

Jesus at this point didn’t know why he was getting stoned even though he was carrying out God’s commands and purpose which are not blasphemous hence why he said “I have shown you many good works from the Father(God). And asked, “For which of these do you stone me?” 

Then Jews replied to him,

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Then jesus replies cleverly to their false accusation, 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim” ?

the Jews are radical monotheists,  jesus quotes Psalms 82:6, jesus is challenging them by pointing out is “elohim” over here is to be taken literally or not ? If saying “I and the Father are one” is blasphemy then “I have said you are elohim” is also blasphemy. The Jews knew very well the it is not to be taken literally rather it is an expression, jesus was making it clear that “I and the Father are one” was just an expression meaning him and God are one in purpose , If Jesus was God then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point.

then jesus takes advantage of Pslams 82:6 to make it clear to them that he is a Messenger of God.

 

35If he called them ‘elohim,’ to WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own [representative] and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of Allaha’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the Father.”

 

In verse 35 jesus crystal clearly points out that Pslams 82:6 is about God’s Messengers (Messengers receive divine scripture like David,Moses,job,Ezekiel,Enoch,Noah. Prophets of God don’t receive any divine scripture rather they confirm the truth contained within the scripture), then in verse 36,right after, jesus says,”WHAT ABOUT THE ONE WHOM THE FATHER(Allaha) SET APART AS HIS VERY OWN [REPRESENTATIVE] AND SENT IN TO THE WORLD?” Then jesus takes advantage of Psalms 82:6 that he used to refute their false accusation and says, “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of Allaha’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.“ as Pslams 82:6 calls the Messengers of God “sons of the Most Hight(El Elyon)”. In verse 37 jesus makes it clear that he does these good work with not his own authority rather with God’s authority and Jesus tells them to not believe in him if he does these without God’s authority, Jesus was simply carrying out God’s commands and purpose. Which he makes clear in the next verse, “38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.”

it is clear as daylight jesus was just a messiah, prophet, Messenger of God. 

John 8:18

18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

Jesus makes it clear over here he is a Messenger of God.” (Trinitarian fantasies thread) 

 

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 AM, flyingeagle said:

3. I completely agree that Jesus came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.  I also agree that following the commandments of the law demonstrates one's love for God.  The difference, I think, between our perspectives is that I do not believe that anyone can be righteous before God based on their own actions, because, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" (James 2:10).  We all have broken at least one part of the law, and therefore have broken all of it.  Since we have broken the covenant with God, therefore, God has made a new covenant through Jesus. 

And this is were taking verses out of context begins. 

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 AM, flyingeagle said:

that respect.  However, the difference between our beliefs is that by following God's commandments those who follow Jesus are not trying to appease God or make themselves righteous.  We follow his commandments out of an overflow of gratefulness, love, and dedication towards him after we have already been made pure through Jesus, who is the only human who perfectly upheld the law

Mathew 5:20

20”For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Don’t know how clear you can get.

 

the Pharisees adheres to the Law Just fine their only issue was that they do it do show off and did not understand the spirit of the law.  Which is Psalms 19:8 explains wonderfully. This jesus rebuked them for such intentions.  The Pharisees went to the point of replacing a commandment with a man made commandment see Mathew 15. 

 

Mathew 23:23-28

23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

 

Matthew 7:24-27

It’s a parable about the one who keeps law and the one who doesn’t.

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” -Matthew 7:24-27

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.”

this parable shows that the person who lives his/her life by practicing jesus teaching will be able to stand tall and face all trails and calamties because jesus teachings granted that person the wisdom and power to face such things and won’t go astray, fall into depression and eventually go to hell. The rock (I.efoundation) is jesus teachings and the rain and the stream and the wind are trails and calamties and the house represents the persons life that he/she built by living by jesus’ teachings. 

 

“26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand

The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

The person who does not live by Jesus’ teachings when he/she faces calamties and trails he/she will not be able encounter them because he/she did not practice them if they had practiced them then they would have had the wisdom and power to encounter them and won’t be miserable and fall into depression and go astray. 

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 AM, flyingeagle said:

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" (James 2:10). 

You’re taking this literally, James was expressing that, what’s the point of adhering to the law when the law commands to adhere to the very commandment you are transgressing.

An example for you to understand.

Mathew 5:27-28

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Now the law says you shall not commit adultery. Jesus says, whoever looks at a girl lustfully has committed adultery with her in his heart. Now although a person hasn’t committed a sin by looking lustfully but he has opened the door for Satan to make him stumble. The equivalent of Jesus saying in the Quran is, it says to not even come near to sin; the same thing is implied in Mathew 5:27-28.

when James the Just says if a person neglects one of the commandments is guilty of neglecting all, what he is point out that a person hasn’t understood the wisdom and the spirit of law because all commandments correspond with each other spiritually, which makes a person righteous a wise, but if he neglects one he hasn’t understood anything thus he is seen guilty of breaking the law as a whole, of course if someone sins intentionally. Slipping doesn’t apply to this. So when you neglect one of the commandments that will lead you to breaking the others by the help of satan.

But with that being said that does not mean that the deeds of his adherence to the law regarding other commandments is in vain, No! Rather they counted as valid deeds in the eyes of God. since jesus makes it clear, In Mathew 5:19

19”Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

if he deeds were in vain then he wouldn’t even be the least in the kingdom of heaven. 

Now to surpass the Pharisees, is simple; don’t do them to show off and impress other people. The only being you should show off to and impress is God.

 

Matthew 5:

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

 

Mathew 5:

Oaths

33“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. 

Mathew 5:

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor like yourself.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be godly servants of your LORD. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your LORD is perfect.

Jesus means be perfect regarding mercy and compassion just like God. Have the manners of God. Now that does not mean you don’t resist a harsh enemy there is a big difference.

Mathew 6:

1“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer and supplication 

5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they haven’t  received their reward. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your LORD, who is unseen. Then your LORD, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you supplicate, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your LORD knows what you need before you ask Him.

9“This, then, is how you should pray:

“ ‘Our LORD,

hallowed be your name,

10your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

11Give us today our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, 

but deliver us from the evil one.’

14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your LORD will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your LORD will not forgive your sins.

Fasting

16“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they haven’t received their reward. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your LORD, who is unseen; and your LORD, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”

 

Treasures in Heaven

19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Doing good deeds will store for you all the heavenly cash to spend on yourself in heaven. And don’t be too attached with worldly gains.

 

22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

Don’t be too attached with the worldly gains, don’t let the world drown you rather  keep your boat floating above it.

 

Do Not Worry

25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your LORD feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life ?

28And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your LORD knows that you need them. 33But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”

Mathew 7:

Judging Others

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your LORD give good gifts to those who ask Him!12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

On 7/17/2020 at 4:58 AM, flyingeagle said:

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Technically, rationally and logically, a person doesn’t need to adhere to the law according to Paul sense it doesnt “save” rather having “faith” in Christ saves. Don’t me give me excuses and trying to justify Paul’s unjust doctrine. Paul contradicts Jesus’ teachings and James the Just. 

On 7/17/2020 at 12:04 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Trinitarian:

“God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.  Simply forgiving sin does not take care of the problem of sin.”

“God does something with our sin.  All the injustices and horrible acts including the ones you and I have done (even with our thoughts) do not just disappear into thin air.  The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people’

“On certain conditions like the OT unlike your God who simply forgives people by commiting suicide. Look at the double standards. And lack of Logic.”

‘God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.’

“Hence why God says in Deuteronomy 8:5-6 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.

6And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to go in His ways, and to fear Him.”

Unlike ur God who simply forgives by committing suicide.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“Suicide is taking a life away by someone who has no right to take that life away.  Only the creator has that right.  Suicide is selfish and is an ultimate lack of faith (I do feel for those who are going through depression and stuff that would lead to suicide because I know it's very hard).  God has every right to give his life as he pleases because it's his life and he is God and creator.  It's not selfish because he knows he's the best thing for humanity and his act is saving humanity.  Big difference here.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You know very well you are running away from your double standards. Ur God simply forgives by killing himself no sense of justice whatsoever. 

When a killer does something in real life yous all voice out demanding justice and he should be sent to jail but when he is released from court yous all get angry and question the courts sense of justice.” -(Trinitarian fantasies thread)

James 2:14-19

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Matthew 5:17

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

Use ur head on how unjust the flawed Pauline theology on jesus dying for your sins, I don’t have to give you a parable when you have brain which embodies rationality and logic.

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