The 4 Questions from a Sunni Muslim

[ZethaPonderer]

I've stumbled across a proud and arrogant Sunni Muslim who asked these 4 questions against his stance towards Shias,

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✓ Now where Allah says in Qur'an Ali waliun Allah ?

✓ Where Allah says in Qur'an that Ali RA was deserve of caliph or successor of Muhammadur Rasulullah saw?

✓ Allah says in Surah Baqara " Let not your own hands contribute to your destruction" . So why u Shias beat yourselves if it is prohibited in Qur'an ?

✓ Allah doesn't say to seek blessings from graves but Shias are mind blowing in doing these jobs !!

What are your rebuttals towards this fellow Sunni?

So far I've mentioned Hadith Ghadir Khum to justify as my answer for his first two questions, while the last two questions of his are baseless accusations on top of being loaded questions against the Shias. But of course as arrogant as he is, he will not accept Ghadir Khum, think's I've answered none of his questions, and charge me with Taqqiya despite me revealing myself openly to him as a Shia Muslim as I quote this Sunni Muslim,

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Successorship is important thing but Allah didn't mention even name of Ali ibn talib in Qur'an. As u Know Shahada is one of most important pillar of Islam . Allah mention two part of Shahada but he didn't third one in Qur'an Why ? Because it is fabricated .

✓ Lol what about answers  ?

✓ Allah says in surah Baqara : "Let not your own hands contribute to your own destruction" . Then why u Shias beat yourselves ? . Lol.

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Lol. U really make me laugh Everytime. But why don't you check references first before writing.

Okk let us know how truth u have said :

1) U gave me reference of Sahih Bukhari volume 2 page 50 . U said it has relation with morning or beating . But look what is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari volume 2 page 50: "The prophet used to deliver two khutbah and sit in between them ". Lol!!!!!!! Where it has relation with mourning or beating.

2) U gave me reference of Sahih Muslim volume 1 page 291 . Look again what is mentioned in this: "It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that he heard the Messenger of Allah ﷺ as saying: What would you do when the son of Mary would descend and lead you?" Lol... Seriously . U said beating is Sunnah of sahabas and u gave me references of our Hadiths Sunan abu dawood volume 1 page 244: Look again what is mentioned: "Narrated Aisha : If u want I can certainly show u marks of Prophet where he used to bath"

WAIT IT HAS ANY RELATION . A BIG NO.

Why ?

✓ U said Ibrahim did so and so ( Beating or mourning) . Adam did so and so . Yusuf did so and so . Yacob did so and so . But u don't have to follow any messenger except Prophet Muhammad.

Allah says in Qur'an: " Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." ( Ali Imran 3:31

∆ So u don't have to follow any prophet except last and final messenger . Prophet Muhammad didn't cried or beat himself for rest of life . The book Ma'iraj Al nabbuwa is book introduced in indo- pak subcontinent . It introduced an innovative idea that Prophet Muhammad is Hazir O Nazir . He is present everywhere . So there are many criticism to this book too . Only Barelvi group of India believe in this book. I quote u" Shias mourn for Imam Hussain ( Hero of karbala) as a form of remembrance. We seek to remember his pain and suffering" . Did Allah told u this ?????? . Hussain (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ( Hero of karbala) sacrificed himself and we Will receive his reward . Allah says in Qur'an:

"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."

∆ Therefore nothing can be added or subtracted from religion of Islam . Beating for Hussain (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ( Hero of karbala) is an innovation . So that is not allowed in Islam . Islam itself means peace. So how can u add this violent practice???

For those of you wondering what the 2nd quote is implying, I basically referenced @naqviam's quote which is the following in the discussion of Matam at General Islamic Discussion. I thought his points were pretty strong, he definitely did his research, but apparently in the eyes of this Sunni he states the otherwise.

 

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(salam)

Mourning and shedding blood is the Sunnah of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام)

We read in Ahl'ul Sunnah's authority work Ma'arij al Nubuwwa Chapter 1 page 248:

Hadhrath Adam was so distressed that he smashed his hands onto his knees and the skin from his hands caused gashes from which bone could be seen.

Those who deem the act of self-harm to be batil should look at the bloodletting actions of Hadrath Adam (عليه السلام). If Hadrath Adam (عليه السلام) can do this why cannot the Shi'a when mourning for Imam Husayn (عليه السلام)?

Mourning and hitting one self is the Sunnah of the Prophet (s)

As evidence we shall cite the following works:

1. Saheeh al Bukharee Volume 2 page 50

2. Sunan al Nasai Volume 3 page 305

3. Adhaan al Mufreed page 426

4. Saheeh al Muslim Volume 1 page 291

5. Musnad Abu Awana Volume 2 page 292

All these books state:

"Rasulullah (s) was in a state where he was hitting his chest."

Ibn Hajr Asqalani in the commentary of this tradition in Fathul Bari Volume 3 page 90 writes:

"This Hadeeth demonstrates that it is permissible to bang your hand at a moment of distress".

If hitting oneself is Haraam then what Fatwa do the Nasibis have for the Prophet (s)? The Pillar of Shari'ah is himself hitting his chest, so if the Shi'a do the same, why are their actions Batil?

Thigh beating is the Sunnah of Maula 'Ali (عليه السلام)

We read in Taufa Ithna Ashari page 523 published in Karachi:

"When Ayesha was defeated and Ali saw the corpses on the ground he began to beat his thighs"

Tauhfa Ithna Ashari, page 523

These Nasibi claim that hitting one's chest is Batil, if this were true what view should we have of Rasulullah (s), Hadrath Adam (عليه السلام) and Maula 'Ali (عليه السلام)?

Chest beating is the Sunnah of the Sahaba

1. Musnad Abu Awana Volume 2 page 141

2. Sunan Nasai Volume 3 page 12

3. Sunan Abu Daud Volume 1 page 244

"Mu'awiya bin Hakim Sami narrates that I read Salat behind the Prophet. A person sneezed and I recited Alhamdolillah on him. People began to stare at me, I asked 'Why are you staring at me?' the Sahaba began to hit their heads."

Before deeming self harm to be Batil perhaps you should take a closer look at the acts of the Sahab The Sahaba's hitting their heads and the silence of the Prophet (s) proves that such acts of distress are not haraam. It's amusing that these Nasibi Mullah's never raise questions on any action of the Sahaba whether good or bad but they find fault with every act of the Shi'a. If the act of the Sahaba's beating themselves is not Batil then the Shi'as act of beating themselves should not be construed as Batil either.

Proof of head beating from the Qur'an

In Surah adh-Dhaariyaat we read that Hadrath Sara (عليه السلام) struck her face when she was told that she would conceive a baby.

"Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said (what! I) An old barren woman?"

Quran 51:29

"Faskath" does not just mean rub or touch, it means slap and this is evidenced from Saheeh Muslim Book 030, Number 5851, Bab Fadail Musa:

Abu Hurraira reported that the Angel of Death was sent to Moses (peace be upon him) to inform of his Lord's summons. When he came, he (Moses) boxed him [sakka] and his eye was knocked out. He (the Angel of Death) came back to the Lord and said: You sent me to a servant who did not want to die. Allah restored his eye to its proper place (and revived his eyesight), and then said: Go back to him and tell him that if he wants life he must place his hand on the back of an ox, and he would be granted as many years of life as the number of hair covered by his hand. He (Moses) said: My Lord what would happen then He said: Then you must court death. He said: Let it be now. And he supplicated Allah to bring him close to the sacred land. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: If I were there, I would have shown you his grave beside the road at the red mound.

This has also been reported in Saheeh al Bukharee Book 23 Volume 2, Book 23, Number 423, Book of Funerals.

We read in the Sunni work Maqamath ai Hareery,

"He beat his cheeks and tore his collar"

The slapping of Prophet Ibraheem (as)'s wife Sara is proven from the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us to adhere to the ways of the people of Ibraheem (عليه السلام), so if the Shi'a beat themselves whilst mourning for Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) such acts are lawful.

Beating oneself at a time of distress is the Sunnah of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام)

We read in Mudharij al Nubuwwa page 221:

"When life was breathed into the spirit of Adam he hit his hand on his head and cried. He made this tradition of beating one's head with one's hand and crying in times of trouble for his descendants."

Hitting one's head in times of trouble is the Sunnah of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام)

We read in Tafseer Kabeer Volume 5 page 158:

"On one occasion Gibrael approached Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) in Zundh and conveyed the news that his father had become blind on account of his weeping for him. Yusuf hit his hand on his head and said 'O I wish my mother did not give birth to me, so that I would have not become the cause of such sadness to my father'".

We have proven that the acts of hitting one's head are not Jahiliyya or Un-Islamic.In fact it is the Sunnah of Prophets Adam (عليه السلام) and Yusuf (عليه السلام).

The Shi'a mourn Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) as a form of remembrance. We seek to remember and share his suffering and pain, since assisting one in trouble is a recommended (Mustahab) act and a kind of worship. We also deem mourning and presenting our sincerity to Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) to be a form of worship.

:!!!: :!!!: :!!!: hmmm lets think about it again

wasalamz

This Sunni Muslim as I speak of, rubs me the wrong way with his Akhlaaq. It's as if he's really not interested at all about Shia Islam, but more so trying his best to live up to his expectations against Shia Muslims as the filthy Raafidas we are in the many eyes of Sunnis while simultaneously being a possible Quranist Muslim through his rejection of Hadiths from the likes of Hadith Ghadir Khum, Thaqalayn, and The Cloak which I'm certain that not ALL Sunni Scholars reject them outright.

Edited June 26, 2020 by ZethaPonderer
Adding furthermore in bold

[guest 2025]

People like this just make me even more certain that the Shia path is right

[realizm]

I cannot count how many times those questions came around in so called debates with sunnis. 

 

[ZethaPonderer]

Btw, I forgot to add furthermore quotes of what other statements this Sunni Muslim has made against me which I quote him the following,

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Lol people usually differs in hadith . We regard Sahih Bukhari , Sahih Muslim and Sunan Abu dawood as authentic hadith not Ghadeer e qom. BTW Allah says in Qur'an if dispute arises go back to book of Allah. If Allah says he is pleased with Muhajirin ( Abu bakr , Umar , Uthman ) in 9:117 then who are u to abuse them ?

 Allah knows past future and present . If Allah has given privilege to Aisha as mother of believers in 33:6.  So how can u curse mother of believers ?

Simply you are denying book of Allah ( Qur'an).

Basically this is his rebuttal for why he won’t accept Ghadir Khum as not just a Mutawattir graded Hadith, but a Hadith deserving of being studied at all under Sunni Islam Theology to see if this Hadith lives up to the Quranic Exegesis.

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Lol . Typical sect follower denying the book of Allah and using Taqiya . Your agruments are baseless .

I quote you "U wanna know why Shias beat themselves cause they lost great men " .

Did prophet Muhammad ( SAW) beat himself on loss of great sahabas like Hamza and so on.  A BIG "NO". DID ALLAH SAYS GIVES PERMISSION TO UMMAH OF MUHAMMAD TO BEAT THEMSELVES ? Again" No".

AND Husayn ibn Ali had left the world . In reality he is not Alive . And he will receive for his sacrifice . 

✓ Beating or calling on ashura doesn't change the past that Husayn ibn Ali had been Martyred. illogical practice!! 

Lol what about answers. Not a single answer .

And this last quote of his is just being stubborn and determined to live up to his expectations against Shia Muslims as the filthy Majoosi Mushrikeen Raafidas they are in their eyes.

There is a lesson I’ve learned from this Sunni Muslim, “Takfiri is far worse for the Muslim Ummah than Taqqiya”. The practice of Takfiri defeats the concept of Unity that Islam emphasizes throughout the Quran. And while I may not be among those Shias who curse the likes of the 3 Caliphs who usurped Imam Ali (عليه السلام) leadership position on top of Aisha; I do criticize such people amongst the Sahaabas that have displayed such disrespectful, disloyal actions against the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his family given the Hadith Al-Kisa (The Cloak). Why? BECAUSE it is irrational and against Human Nature to presume 100% of the Sahaabas of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were Faithful and Loyal to him. Some had to be Faithless.

Criticism =/= Disrespect, Slandering, or Cursing.

Not all Sahaabas of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) WERE Sahaabas of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Edited June 26, 2020 by ZethaPonderer
Correcting the word Mushrikeen underlined.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

Hey listen. One thing came to my mind about the question that if wilayah was that important, then it should be written clearly in Quran that Ali is Imam after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Wouldn't that question be valid, if Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left only Quran as source of guidance for Muslims? ( which indeed, he did not ). 

He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told us to adhere to Book of Allah and Ahlebait (عليه السلام) 

That almost invalidates the Question. 

[THREE1THREE]

2 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

Now where Allah says in Qur'an Ali waliun Allah ?

 

Innama waliyyukumu Allahuwarasooluhu wallatheena amanoo allatheenayuqeemoona assalata wayu/toona azzakatawahum rakiAAoon

“Certainly your guardian(Wali) is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow.” Quran chapter 5 verse 55

 

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as guardians. They are [in fact] gurdians of one another. And whoever takes them as an guardian to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. Surah 5:51

 

Surah 5:51 is about guardianship telling Muslims not to take the Jews and Christians as guardians and if they do they become one of them. If you translate it to friends then the prophet is in trouble and many Muslims are in trouble.  in surah 5:5 Muslims are allowed to go to the further extent on marrying from the non-believers (I.e people of the book) so being friends with the people of the book is allowed and we can see that also in the prophets lifestyle an example is the king in abbasinia who gave Muslims protection.  We can see that surah 5:51 is about guardianship in surah 5:55 Allah tells us who take as guardians and verse 56 tells us this those who take Allah and the prophet and those who believe( reference to Ali) will be triumphant.

Surah 5:56

“And whosoever takes Allah, His Messenger, and those who have believe, as guardians, indeed the party of Allah will be triumphant.”

Allah used the term “believe” as reference to imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) infact everytime the Quran mentions “O you who believe” “claimed to be believe” the first foremost and he cheif of them is imam Ali ((عليه السلام)).

 

Sunni documents agree that at least 300 verses of Qur’an directly revealed on the honor of Imam ‘Ali. (reported by Ibn Asakir, al-Suyuti, Ibn Hajar, etc.) Beside that that, Ibn Abbas said:

"There is no verse in Qur’an in which the term ‘Believers’, unless ‘Ali is at the top of them and the chief of them and the more virtuous one among them. Surely Allah has admonished the companions of Muhammad (S) in Qur’an, but He did not refer to ‘Ali except with honor."

Sunni references:

- Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p654, tradition #1114

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v3, p229

- Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p171

- Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p89

- al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 9, section 3, p196

- Others such as Tabarani and Ibn Abi Hatam

So it is definitely a reference to Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)). If it otherwise then these are the issues.

Allah is passing his guardianship to the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) then Allah’s guardianship is passed on to another category, now if that category was referring to the Muslims then every Muslim would be saying to each other they are masters over each other and this will lead to chaos and massive disputes, obviously that is irrational and illogical. 

Now the part where it says “those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow” in this part the verse is speaking in plural form but then it says “establish prayer and give charity while they bow”  no Muslim gives Zakat while they are bowing in prayer, this verse is obviously talking about someone. The word “those” and  “they” in the verse is used in a plural of respect/royalty this was used to honour imam Ali and elevate his status on being the guardian of the believers after the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

Here sunni reference showing surah 5:55 was revealed about imam Ali ((عليه السلام))

Sunni tasfir on Quran 5:55

1-Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Al-Tha’labi, under verse 5:55 

2-Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp186,288-289

3-Tafsir jamiul Hukam al-Qur’an, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219

4-Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68

5-Tafsir al-Durr al-manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp293-294

6-Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, (Egypt 1373), v1,pp505,649

7-Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, (Egypt 1382), v1, p73, on the authority of Ibn Abbas 

8-Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas 

9-Sharh al-Tjrid,by Allama Qushji

10-Ahkam al-Qur’an, al-Jassas, v2, p542-543

11-Musnad Ahmad Ibn hanbal, v5, p38

12-Kanzul ummal, by al-Muttaqi, al-Hindi, v6, p391, tradition 5991

13-Al-Awaat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yassir 

14-Ibn mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

 

2 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

Where Allah says in Qur'an that Ali RA was deserve of caliph or successor of Muhammadur Rasulullah saw?

Where in the Quran doesn’t it say to Abu baker is deserving of Caliphate??

where in the quran do any of the prophets leave their community to vote for a successor? 

Show me where Quran says Fajr is 2, Thuhurr is 4, asr is 4, mighrib is 3, Isha is 4???

3 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

Allah says in Surah Baqara " Let not your own hands contribute to your destruction" . So why u Shias beat yourselves if it is prohibited in Qur'an ?

We’re not beating ourselves the way you are implying (desperate accusation), matam is completely different to beating I’m sure you know what you mean by beating.... bashing. You haven’t understood the philosophy of it.

its a way for showing grief which dates back all the way to the time of Musa and is Isa (pbut). It is very common in the Middle East. Here’s an example 

Luke 18:

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

also Aisha did matam on the prophets death.

 

“The messanger of Allah died on my lap. Then I got up and beat my chest.....”

Sunni references:

Al-Tabari, volume 9, page 183

 

why do you Sunnis believe killing shia is good?

Ibn Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “O Ali, there will emerge a group from my nation who are extreme in love for the Ahlulbayt, their name is insulting, they are called the Rafidah. Fight them, for they are polytheists”. 

Sunni references: 

Majam al-Zawa’id, volume 10, page 22 with a Hassan(reliable) chain, as Ibn Hajar al-haithami and so does Albani confirm.