Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Ali send his children (as) to back up Omar?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

Salam 

I was wondering why did imam Ali (عليه السلام) send imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to Omar’s war? Imam Hussein married the Persian princess I heard that she rejected abu bakr right away lol, and willingly choosed imam Hussein. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Oskar said:

Salam 

I was wondering why did imam Ali (عليه السلام) send imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to Omar’s war? Imam Hussein married the Persian princess I heard that she rejected abu bakr right away lol, and willingly choosed imam Hussein. 

The Persian Princess Shahrabanu (عليها السلام) was brought back captive after the Muslims defeated the Sassanid Persians, Umar was going to auction her off but Amir al Muminen (عليه السلام) said no and said let her pick someone to marry, she picked Imam Al Husayn (عليه السلام)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
3 hours ago, Oskar said:

why did imam Ali (عليه السلام) send imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to Omar’s war?

Salam it's a great lie that fabricated by enemies of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & his sons to show them as killers of Iranians to spread hatred between Iranians  & Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) as following  proxy of creating  rift between Iranians  & Arabs to introduce the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) as supporters of usurper Arab leaders which still now pan Arab people are praising  Umar & Khalid  ibn walid  for conquering Iran & war crimes of Khalid against  Iranians & pan Iranian groups use these lies to introduce  loving of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) by religious  people as worshiping  Arabs to increase the hate between Iranians & Arabs .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On 6/23/2020 at 11:40 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's a great lie that fabricated by enemies of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & his sons to show them as killers of Iranians to spread hatred between Iranians  & Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) as following  proxy of creating  rift between Iranians  & Arabs to introduce the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) as supporters of usurper Arab leaders which still now pan Arab people are praising  Umar & Khalid  ibn walid  for conquering Iran & war crimes of Khalid against  Iranians & pan Iranian groups use these lies to introduce  loving of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) by religious  people as worshiping  Arabs to increase the hate between Iranians & Arabs .

So what If hasnain participated in war against zoroastrian Iranians? Many of the great Shia personalities did , why should it cause any hatred towards ahlylbayt amongst Iranians ?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 6/24/2020 at 10:49 AM, Oskar said:

Salam 

I was wondering why did imam Ali (عليه السلام) send imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to Omar’s war? Imam Hussein married the Persian princess I heard that she rejected abu bakr right away lol, and willingly choosed imam Hussein. 

No, it was when they were sent to defend Othman from being killed not Omar, as some brother in the thread has said this is a fabrication.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

So what If hasnain participated in war against zoroastrian Iranians? Many of the great Shia personalities did , why should it cause any hatred towards ahlylbayt amongst Iranians ?

 

Salam at first this war not approved  by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) secondly war with Iran Zoroastrians was not command of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & it's started by first caliph based on his agenda in name of expanding Islam but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) only allowed presence of some Shia personalities like Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi for preventing war crimes & bloodshed by Arab army in name of Islam that rest of Shia personalities only were present at conquering of Al-Mada'in  the Sassanian capital that advisory presence of Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi helped conquering it with lesser bloodshed but after fall of it the Arab Army under command of Khalid ibn walid committed war crimes like genocide  & raping & killing of civilians  & captured soldiers just for gaining more spoils of war & Jaziya  in name of Islamic expansion that showed Islam in viewpoint of Iranians as a religion of sword & looting Iran by Arabs that at start only people of Mada'in made core of Iranian  shias because they saw Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi & rest of shia personalities as representative of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) but in other parts of Iran the representatives of three caliphs just caused Arab phobia & planted hate of Arabs in hearts of Iranians that it takes a long times that Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) could introduce real Islam to Iranians by sending missioners & people from their families that introduced teaching of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) after conquering  Iran by so called muslim army.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
18 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam at first this war not approved  by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) secondly war with Iran Zoroastrians was not command of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & it's started by first caliph based on his agenda in name of expanding Islam but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) only allowed presence of some Shia personalities like Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi for preventing war crimes & bloodshed by Arab army in name of Islam that rest of Shia personalities only were present at conquering of Al-Mada'in  the Sassanian capital that advisory presence of Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi helped conquering it with lesser bloodshed but after fall of it the Arab Army under command of Khalid ibn walid committed war crimes like genocide  & raping & killing of civilians  & captured soldiers just for gaining more spoils of war & Jaziya  in name of Islamic expansion that showed Islam in viewpoint of Iranians as a religion of sword & looting Iran by Arabs that at start only people of Mada'in made core of Iranian  shias because they saw Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi & rest of shia personalities as representative of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) but in other parts of Iran the representatives of three caliphs just caused Arab phobia & planted hate of Arabs in hearts of Iranians that it takes a long times that Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) could introduce real Islam to Iranians by sending missioners & people from their families that introduced teaching of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) after conquering  Iran by so called muslim army.

" so called muslim army" so you excommunicated the warriors of persian campaign from fold of islam ?

Are you saying invasion of iran was illegal? Earning from it haram too ?

How exactly this human rights monitoring was done btw can you elaborate?

Why didnt Ali return iran to the rule of persians under his reign then ? Maybe a Muslim persian governor at the very least ? 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
19 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam at first this war not approved  by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) secondly war with Iran Zoroastrians was not command of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & it's started by first caliph based on his agenda in name of expanding Islam but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) only allowed presence of some Shia personalities like Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi for preventing war crimes & bloodshed by Arab army in name of Islam that rest of Shia personalities only were present at conquering of Al-Mada'in  the Sassanian capital that advisory presence of Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi helped conquering it with lesser bloodshed but after fall of it the Arab Army under command of Khalid ibn walid committed war crimes like genocide  & raping & killing of civilians  & captured soldiers just for gaining more spoils of war & Jaziya  in name of Islamic expansion that showed Islam in viewpoint of Iranians as a religion of sword & looting Iran by Arabs that at start only people of Mada'in made core of Iranian  shias because they saw Salman Farsi/ Muhammadi & rest of shia personalities as representative of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) but in other parts of Iran the representatives of three caliphs just caused Arab phobia & planted hate of Arabs in hearts of Iranians that it takes a long times that Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) could introduce real Islam to Iranians by sending missioners & people from their families that introduced teaching of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) after conquering  Iran by so called muslim army.

I agree, logical explanation historically thankyou brother!  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
8 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Why didnt Ali return iran to the rule of persians under his reign then ? Maybe a Muslim persian governor at the very least ? 

anyway  Islam was reaching  to Iran & it was predicted by prophet Muhammad (Pbu) in battle of Khandaq but proxy of three caliphs for spreading of Islam  was against proxy of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) also Salman Farsi appointed as governor  of Mada'in that he died there & Imam Ali(عليه السلام) buried him there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

anyway  Islam was reaching  to Iran & it was predicted by prophet Muhammad (Pbu) in battle of Khandaq but proxy of three caliphs for spreading of Islam  was against proxy of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) also Salman Farsi appointed as governor  of Mada'in that he died there & Imam Ali(عليه السلام) buried him there.

I still see no answer for the questions I asked earlier 

Why did umar appoint Salman he could have appointed any of the other " marauding war criminal sahaba " that would have made his task easier ?

When were the first " mission of ahlylbayt " sent to iran ?

Ali appointed his best friend sahl b huneyf to iran as a governor how did he fare ?

Edited by Panzerwaffe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Salam @Panzerwaffe like always you are generalizing everything  , anyway as I said in above posts people of Mada'in had good memory from help of Salman (رضي الله عنه) for stopping bloodshed & peaceful  conquering of Mada'in by muslim army but Iranians couldn't tolerate ruling of other Arab represntative of caliphs because they were ruling on Mada'in & Iranians by arab invaders policy not Islamic policy that Umar had to appoint Salman (رضي الله عنه) to stop countless rebels of Iranians because of tyranny  of previous  governors also  he was one of them that when he entered to Mada'in  he fixed errors of  previous  governors & stopped luxury ruling of them that they inherited from Sassanians & instead of staying in palace he resided in a simple house between people & showed real procedure of Islam & introduced Ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) to people.

I don't  know about it because it's  not recorded in history but it was a long process that started by entering Salman (رضي الله عنه) until time of Imam Mahdi (aj) that upmost of it recorded during presence of Imam Reza (عليه السلام) & there is a famous tomb of one of close relatives of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) in city of Mashhad  Ardhal near to Qom that sent to there by request of people from Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام).

19 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Ali appointed his best friend sahl b huneyf to iran as a governor how did he fare ?

I don't  take  it , anyway Imam Ali (عليه السلام) appointed everyone  as governor  based on his qualification & piety not taking bribe & gifts from them although  they appointed by piety & qualification but sometimes  they did mistakes that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) criticized  & warned them or removed them that examples it recorded in his letters in Nahjulbalagha that sahl b huneyf for a period of time became governor of Fars (Shiraz) that because people of Fars (Shiraz) had some problems with him then Imam Ali (عليه السلام) appointed Ibn ziad (la) instead of him that at that time Ibn ziad (la) was loyal to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & fixed issue of Fars (Shiraz) with kindness  & good policy that he was governor of Fars (Shiraz) until he joined to to Yazeed (la) & betrayed to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) because Yazid announced him as ummayids & his family after death of Muawiah (la) that was denying  any (blood ) connection to Ibn Ziad (la) but sahl b huneyf was main candidate  of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as governor  of Shaam (Syria)  instead of Muawiah (la) but Muawiah (la)  & his supprters from people  of Shaam (Syria) didn't allow him to enter to enter to Shaam (Syria) territory  so he returned  to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) also Imam appointed  him as governor  of Medina.

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?reader=1&lid=0&mid=17657&catid=6504&pid=61861

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 6/24/2020 at 6:40 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's a great lie that fabricated by enemies of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & his sons to show them as killers of Iranians to spread hatred between Iranians  & Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) as following  proxy of creating  rift between Iranians  & Arabs to introduce the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) as supporters of usurper Arab leaders which still now pan Arab people are praising  Umar & Khalid  ibn walid  for conquering Iran & war crimes of Khalid against  Iranians & pan Iranian groups use these lies to introduce  loving of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) by religious  people as worshiping  Arabs to increase the hate between Iranians & Arabs .

You may even claim that Ahlulbayt should've united with Sassanids against Sunnis if they were able to.

Edited by Rauf Murtuzov
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Ibn ziad (la) was loyal to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & fixed issue of Fars (Shiraz) with kindness  & good policy that he was governor of Fars (Shiraz) until he joined to to Yazeed (la) & betrayed to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) because Yazid announced him as ummayids & his family after death of Muawiah (la) that was denying  any (blood ) connection to Ibn Ziad (la) but 

Brother Salam,

slight correction: It was not Ibn Ziyad instead his father Ziyad was appointed by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and later on Ziyad joined Muawiya and his son Ubaidullah Ibn ZIyad sided with yazid

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 6/24/2020 at 1:49 AM, Oskar said:

Salam 

I was wondering why did imam Ali (عليه السلام) send imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to Omar’s war? Imam Hussein married the Persian princess I heard that she rejected abu bakr right away lol, and willingly choosed imam Hussein. 

Because it was a legitimate war. Hz Umar asked Imam Ali advice before going to war. Imam Ali approved of this war.

The Persian empire was a threat to the Muslims. It was Imam Hassan and Hussein's duty to defend Islam.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

@Warilla Salam giving advice for saving life of Muslims doesn't mean that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was approved the war also Imam as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) didn't participate in wars of three caliphs then Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) didn't participate in any war during era of three caliph even at time of caliphate of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) they were protecting by Imam Ali(عليه السلام) in wars in order to keep safe linage of Imamate  from any harm that it reported in battle of Siffin he didn't  let Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) to participate in direct war so it's irrational that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was letting them to go to unsafe places & wars in accompany of a group of people that were enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) & they were planning to cut lineage of prophet Muhammad (pbu) in name of accidental death in wars also story presence of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in war with Iran mentioned by Tabbari as source of other books from three guys which Ali ibn Mujahid that all rijal of sunnis called him liar that his job was fabricating & forging narrations & Hanash ibn Malik that is an unknown  person & Ali ibn Muhammad Mada'ini that all hadiths from him called weak hadiths & other main source of story is Al-Baladhuri that was an Abbasid court historian 

Quote

ʾAḥmad ibn Yaḥyā al-Balādhurī (Arabic: أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر البلاذري‎) was a 9th-century Muslim historian. One of the eminent Middle Eastern historians of his age, he spent most of his life in Baghdad and enjoyed great influence at the court of the caliph al-Mutawakkil. He traveled in Syria and Iraq, compiling information for his major works.

Quote

Sermon 207: Hold back this young man on my behalf….

In the battle of Siffin Amir al-mu'minin saw Imam al-Hasan proceeding rapidly to fight, then he said:

وقال (عليه السلام)

في بعض أيام صفين وقد رأى الحسن (عليه السلام) يتسرع إلى الحرب

Hold back this young man on my behalf, lest he causes my ruin, because I am loath to send these two (meaning al-Hasan and al-Husayn) towards death, lest the descending line of the Prophet - may Allah bless him and his descendants - is cut away by their death.

 

امْلِكُوا عنِّي هذَا الْغُلاَمَ لاَ يَهُدَّنِي، فَإِنَّنِي أَنْفَسُ بِهذَيْنِ ـ يَعْنِي الحَسَنَ وَالْحُسَيْنَ (عليهما السلام) عَلَى الْمَوْتِ، لِئَلاَّ يَنْقَطِعَ بِهِمَا نَسْلُ رَسُولِ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله)

https://www.welayatnet.com/fa/news/74329

http://www.raherasti.ir/565/565/

https://www.karbobala.com/articles/info/1590

https://www.porseman.com/article/جنگ-امام-حسين(ع)-جنگ-هاي-اعراب-با-ايران-ازدواج-امام-حسين(ع)-شهربانو-دختر-يزدگرد/112066

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baladhuri

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-207-hold-back-young-man-my-behalf

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
59 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

@Warilla Salam giving advice for saving life of Muslims doesn't mean that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was approved the war also Imam as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) didn't participate in wars of three caliphs then Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) didn't participate in any war during era of three caliph even at time of caliphate of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) they were protecting by Imam Ali(عليه السلام) in wars in order to keep safe linage of Imamate  from any harm that it reported in battle of Siffin he didn't  let Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) to participate in direct war so it's irrational that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was letting them to go to unsafe places & wars in accompany of a group of people that were enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) & they were planning to cut lineage of prophet Muhammad (pbu) in name of accidental death in wars also story presence of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain

Imam Ali stooped him Hassan rushing into battle. So they were at Siffin (unsafe as it is the place of battle).

It's well known that Imam Ali sent Imam.Hassan to defend Uthman when he was attacked. ( Very dangerous). 

Imam Ali himself was put in danger many times.

Every Imam was martyerd.

I'll look into the participation in the wars of Hz Umar and see if I can find some evidence.

Edited by Warilla
*defend Uthman (wrote Hz Umar accidentally)
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

@Warilla when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sent Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) to protect Uthman , he sent him with his brothers to protect both Imams like body guards also most of time house of Uthman was under siege by civilians  that were gathered there without sword or any damaging  objects just to express their complaint about bad management  & cruelty of Uthman but battle of Siffin was against wretched  enemy of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) that was seeking erasing family of prophet Muhammad  (pbu) from earth by any means so battle of Siffin was more dangerous than siege of house of Uthman also all of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) were brave & weren't  afraid of death in battle but they were thinking about safety like other rational persons for continuing  of lineage of prophet Muhammad  (pbu) until it reaches to Imam Mahdi (aj) that one of reasons  for his occultation mentioned by Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) is fear of death before reappearance  that this fear is a rational fear not fear from cowardliness. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
21 hours ago, Rauf Murtuzov said:

You may even claim that Ahlulbayt should've united with Sassanids against Sunnis if they were able to.

Salam they joined to Sassanids by marriage  of lady Shahrbanu (رضي الله عنه) with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) against falsehood not sunnis also some Sunnis consider wahabists & Salafis as a different  creed or cult out of Sunnis & Shia like Khawarij.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

@Ashvazdanghe

We can disagree on the history.

But a point I want to make to original OP. Is that If Imam Hassan went to battle the Persian or not is not significant to Imamat.

Imam Ali wilayat is prooven during the lifetime of the Prophet after that even if HZ did everything correct and was the greatest leader ever it doesn't change the fact it was Imam Ali right.

We don't need to paint them (sahaba) as ultimate badguys or ultimate good guys.

They were fallible Muslims capable of both great good and great wrong.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

@Warilla I just mentioned  cursed Muawiah (la) & his party that wasn't  from Sahaba also I don't  mention particularly any Sahaba but story of of going Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) to war with Iranians fabricated when Shias (mostly Zaidis) started their revolt against tyrants from north of Iran that in this fake story the fabricators focused on his participating in war with people from north of Iran that was main center of Zaidis at time of Abbasids  so they created such fake stories to cause doubts  between Shias that at time of fabrication this story majority of them were Zaidis  from north of Iran .

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam they joined to Sassanids by marriage  of lady Shahrbanu (رضي الله عنه) with Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) against falsehood not sunnis also some Sunnis consider wahabists & Salafis as a different  creed or cult out of Sunnis & Shia like Khawarij.

Shahram I said it because you were praising Zoroastrian Sassanids while criticizing Umar and Ibn Walid

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On 6/29/2020 at 4:06 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam @Panzerwaffe like always you are generalizing everything  , anyway as I said in above posts people of Mada'in had good memory from help of Salman (رضي الله عنه) for stopping bloodshed & peaceful  conquering of Mada'in by muslim army but Iranians couldn't tolerate ruling of other Arab represntative of caliphs because they were ruling on Mada'in & Iranians by arab invaders policy not Islamic policy that Umar had to appoint Salman (رضي الله عنه) to stop countless rebels of Iranians because of tyranny  of previous  governors also  he was one of them that when he entered to Mada'in  he fixed errors of  previous  governors & stopped luxury ruling of them that they inherited from Sassanians & instead of staying in palace he resided in a simple house between people & showed real procedure of Islam & introduced Ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) to people.

I don't  know about it because it's  not recorded in history but it was a long process that started by entering Salman (رضي الله عنه) until time of Imam Mahdi (aj) that upmost of it recorded during presence of Imam Reza (عليه السلام) & there is a famous tomb of one of close relatives of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) in city of Mashhad  Ardhal near to Qom that sent to there by request of people from Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام).

I don't  take  it , anyway Imam Ali (عليه السلام) appointed everyone  as governor  based on his qualification & piety not taking bribe & gifts from them although  they appointed by piety & qualification but sometimes  they did mistakes that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) criticized  & warned them or removed them that examples it recorded in his letters in Nahjulbalagha that sahl b huneyf for a period of time became governor of Fars (Shiraz) that because people of Fars (Shiraz) had some problems with him then Imam Ali (عليه السلام) appointed Ibn ziad (la) instead of him that at that time Ibn ziad (la) was loyal to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & fixed issue of Fars (Shiraz) with kindness  & good policy that he was governor of Fars (Shiraz) until he joined to to Yazeed (la) & betrayed to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) because Yazid announced him as ummayids & his family after death of Muawiah (la) that was denying  any (blood ) connection to Ibn Ziad (la) but sahl b huneyf was main candidate  of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as governor  of Shaam (Syria)  instead of Muawiah (la) but Muawiah (la)  & his supprters from people  of Shaam (Syria) didn't allow him to enter to enter to Shaam (Syria) territory  so he returned  to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) also Imam appointed  him as governor  of Medina.

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?reader=1&lid=0&mid=17657&catid=6504&pid=61861

salam I'm sorry i dont follow this at all 

1-people of Mada'in are the persian aristocracy right ?

2-which iranian rebellion occured under umar ? if umar was so bad he could have just massacred a large number of them like later arab rulers did ?

3-other arab supporters of imam also were represented in arab conquistadors and ruling elite [too numerous to mention but abdullah b budayl and mikhanaf b sulaym comes to mind as governers]

4-I'm not sure what Imam Mehdi or As-Sadiq have to do with this 

5-Sahl b Huneyf was one the closest companion of Imam he was not removed because he was corrupt , but because the iranians became rebellious [given the turmoil in muslim empire] and exploited his good nature and they needed the strong arm of ziyad b abih [who did not defect to yazid rather to muawiyah] to keep them in line 

ofcourse Sahl was denied entry in syria by mauwiyah but that is unrelated to the persian front issues we are discussing

if iranians were so inclined to ahlulbayt from the beginning why did it take until the 15th century for iran to be majority shia? and iran remained the bastion of sunni islam until then.Yes there were some ALid rebels like ABudllah b muawuyah etc who took refuge in the mountain hideouts of persia but they hardly represented the mainstream iranian religious thought and even these were far from 12er in creed.

 

umar himself wanted to appoint salim mawla abu haudhayfa [ of persian origin] as his successor so you cannot hold only arabs and umar responsible for the sour relations, iranians did not fully accept their defeat until the last embers of their nationalism was stamped out long after Imam Alis caliphate and even by the time of Abbassids the fact that iranians were willing to back abu muslim proves that their real reasons for rebelling against ummayyads were nationalistic and not religious devotion to ahlulbayt 

probably the best example to illustrate this is musab b zubayr [husband of sukayna bint hussain ]who cold bloodedly murdered thousands of iranian muslim supporters of Mukhtar was given the nickname of " butcher " by abdullah b umar b khattab [father in law of mukhtar]

I just find it distasteful that you would defend the zoroastrian iranians and so unjustly malign the first muslim arab conquerors even though you know this was not an "illegal "invasion and was fully approved by Imam and backed by his supporters.It is very true iranian muslims  suffered immensely under arab oppression [in the later years esp with rise of ummayyads and zubayris ]but that was not the origional intent of initial invasion and you cannot blame the crimes of his successors onto Umar because if you do many great names of Sahaba and Tabaeen were fully complicit in them. 

 regarding khlaid b walid atrocities most of them are in Riddah wars and who criticized him the most for it ? yup Umar b khattab and Abu Qatada [ who also participated in wars against persians ]

 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member
On 6/24/2020 at 1:49 AM, Oskar said:

Salam 

I was wondering why did imam Ali (عليه السلام) send imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to Omar’s war? Imam Hussein married the Persian princess I heard that she rejected abu bakr right away lol, and willingly choosed imam Hussein. 

Ws,


The conquests were well under way by that point and there is nothing wrong with conquest per se in the right context. Imam 'Ali (عليه السلام) even advised 'Umar, despite their own personal disagreements. All of this shows the sublime character of Imam 'Ali and his concern for the overall welfare of Islam. In no way does that mean he endorses everything that went on or agreed with everything they did. He is quite clear on the dubious methods they used to attain power.

Edited by gharib570
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/24/2020 at 5:49 AM, Oskar said:

Salam 

I was wondering why did imam Ali (عليه السلام) send imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and imam Hussein (عليه السلام) to Omar’s war? Imam Hussein married the Persian princess I heard that she rejected abu bakr right away lol, and willingly choosed imam Hussein. 

Did Prophet (PBUHHP) forced war upon arabs for Islam or for defending his followers and Muslimeen? 

Imams believed in war for defense and not for expansion. If it would have been the case, Iman Ali (عليه السلام) wouldn't have felt difficulty in consolidating order while he was caliph by sending people to fight and lessen the threats of people who fought him in siffein and jamal and other battles. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never expanded his control beyond known borders at the time and it could be inferred from that he never believed in expansion of territory but sharing islam with rest of the world.

Edited by Flying_Eagle
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
14 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Did Prophet (PBUHHP) forced war upon arabs for Islam or for defending his followers and Muslimeen? 

Imams believed in war for defense and not for expansion. If it would have been the case, Iman Ali (عليه السلام) wouldn't have felt difficulty in consolidating order while he was caliph by sending people to fight and lessen the threats of people who fought him in siffein and jamal and other battles. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never expanded his control beyond known borders at the time and it could be inferred from that he never believed in expansion of territory but sharing islam with rest of the world.

why would the Prophet (S) have given good news about the conquests?  These conquests are something every Muslim ought to be proud of.  What a shame.  Astaghfirullah.
——————————-


 

The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ foretold a multitude of Muslim conquests, including those of Rome, Persia, Egypt, Yemen, India, and Constantinople. None of these prophecies were described vaguely or with equivocation, but rather with an air of absolute certainty.

Jābir b. ‘Abdillāh (رضي الله عنه) reports that while digging the trench outside Madinah to repel an approaching army, a massive boulder obstructed them that no ax would break. With time running out, and with people’s fears and hunger eating away at them, the Prophet ﷺ walked over and picked up the ax. He said, Bismillah (In God’s name),” and hammered the boulder, reducing a chunk of it to rubble. He said, Allāhu Akbar (God is Great)! I have been given the keys to Shām; I can see its red palaces at this very moment.” Then he shattered another chunk and said, Allāhu Akbar (God is Great)! I have been given the keys to Persia; I can see Madain’s white palace.” Then he shattered the last chunk and said, Allāhu Akbar (God is Great)! I have been given the keys to Yemen. By Allah, I can see the Gates of Sana‘a at this very moment from here.”[10]

Regarding Egypt, he ﷺ took its conquest for granted, knowing his Lord’s promise was true. Abu Dharr (رضي الله عنه) narrated: The Prophet ﷺ said: “You will certainly conquer Egypt; a land in which [a currency] called al-qīrâṭ is customary. When you conquer it, be gracious to its people, for they are entitled to a covenant and [the right of] family bonds. And when you see two men disputing over the place of a brick, then leave [Egypt].[11] The Prophet ﷺ accurately spoke in the second person here, foretelling that none other than his personal Companions would conquer Egypt. Then he ﷺ instructed them to honor their peace treaty with the Egyptians and reminded them that their grandmother (Hājar; the mother of Ishmael) was from this land. In this same narration, Abu Dharr (رضي الله عنه) adds, “I witnessed ‘Abdur-Raḥmān b. Shuraḥbīl b. Ḥasana and his brother, Rabī‘a, disputing [in Egypt] over the place of a brick, so I left.”

Regarding Constantinople, which is presently called Istanbul, the Prophet ﷺ determined that it would become a Muslim land nearly a millennium prior to that happening. ‘Abdullāh b. ‘Amr (رضي الله عنه) reports that they were once sitting with the Messenger of Allah ﷺ and writing, he ﷺ was asked, “Which city will be liberated first; Constantinople or Rome?” He said, “Indeed, the city of Heraclius will be liberated first,”[12] meaning Constantinople. An entire 800 years later, the Ottoman sultan, Muhammad al-Fātiḥ, accomplished this great feat. In another hadith“Constantinople will certainly be liberated, and how excellent a leader will its leader be, and how excellent an army that army will be.”[13] Some scholars hold that this second hadith may refer to a second liberation of Constantinople which was also prophesied, but has not yet taken place.

Edited by eThErEaL
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/25/2020 at 3:48 PM, eThErEaL said:

why would the Prophet (S) have given good news about the conquests?  These conquests are something every Muslim ought to be proud of.  What a shame.  Astaghfirullah.
——————————-


 

The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ foretold a multitude of Muslim conquests, including those of Rome, Persia, Egypt, Yemen, India, and Constantinople. None of these prophecies were described vaguely or with equivocation, but rather with an air of absolute certainty.

Jābir b. ‘Abdillāh (رضي الله عنه) reports that while digging the trench outside Madinah to repel an approaching army, a massive boulder obstructed them that no ax would break. With time running out, and with people’s fears and hunger eating away at them, the Prophet ﷺ walked over and picked up the ax. He said, Bismillah (In God’s name),” and hammered the boulder, reducing a chunk of it to rubble. He said, Allāhu Akbar (God is Great)! I have been given the keys to Shām; I can see its red palaces at this very moment.” Then he shattered another chunk and said, Allāhu Akbar (God is Great)! I have been given the keys to Persia; I can see Madain’s white palace.” Then he shattered the last chunk and said, Allāhu Akbar (God is Great)! I have been given the keys to Yemen. By Allah, I can see the Gates of Sana‘a at this very moment from here.”[10]

Regarding Egypt, he ﷺ took its conquest for granted, knowing his Lord’s promise was true. Abu Dharr (رضي الله عنه) narrated: The Prophet ﷺ said: “You will certainly conquer Egypt; a land in which [a currency] called al-qīrâṭ is customary. When you conquer it, be gracious to its people, for they are entitled to a covenant and [the right of] family bonds. And when you see two men disputing over the place of a brick, then leave [Egypt].[11] The Prophet ﷺ accurately spoke in the second person here, foretelling that none other than his personal Companions would conquer Egypt. Then he ﷺ instructed them to honor their peace treaty with the Egyptians and reminded them that their grandmother (Hājar; the mother of Ishmael) was from this land. In this same narration, Abu Dharr (رضي الله عنه) adds, “I witnessed ‘Abdur-Raḥmān b. Shuraḥbīl b. Ḥasana and his brother, Rabī‘a, disputing [in Egypt] over the place of a brick, so I left.”

Regarding Constantinople, which is presently called Istanbul, the Prophet ﷺ determined that it would become a Muslim land nearly a millennium prior to that happening. ‘Abdullāh b. ‘Amr (رضي الله عنه) reports that they were once sitting with the Messenger of Allah ﷺ and writing, he ﷺ was asked, “Which city will be liberated first; Constantinople or Rome?” He said, “Indeed, the city of Heraclius will be liberated first,”[12] meaning Constantinople. An entire 800 years later, the Ottoman sultan, Muhammad al-Fātiḥ, accomplished this great feat. In another hadith“Constantinople will certainly be liberated, and how excellent a leader will its leader be, and how excellent an army that army will be.”[13] Some scholars hold that this second hadith may refer to a second liberation of Constantinople which was also prophesied, but has not yet taken place.

An objective could be achieved by good means and by evil means, therefore, you have to be impartial, unbiased and thoughtful concerning the news of great personalities. 

For example: - Either you can boost your economy by creating demand in the world for your goods such as The US creates demands by instigating wars. But you can also boost your economy by creating demand without wars such as Japan makes every thing from pins of the paper to ships and whatnot and its economy is intact without wars.

Prophet (PBUHHP) made Arabia Muslim without attacking anyone but defended his companions and Allah's message. Prophecies of Prophet (PBUHHP) were also true like the Prophecy of Moses ((عليه السلام)) that he would bring end to the rule of pharaoh but that end was brought by pharaoh's own obstinacy that he would never submit to truth and although Prophet Moses ((عليه السلام)) did not strike him on his death but his death was caused due to his hatred for Moses (عليه السلام).

When truth makes sense, enemies arise to stop the source so that it may not make people to leave them and they become alone and without wealth. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is conquering whole world and this was foretold by Syeda Zainab (عليه السلام) that multitude would visit is shrine. 

If Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would have been made 1st Caliph, he would have swept Syria, Iran and whole world with logic, rationality, sincerity and love for the mankind but people showed back to Prophet's Ghadeer's promise and they invaded lands which Prophet disliked. 

So, keys were give and they were achieved but the method was not of Prophet's. Prophet's method was that shown in Mecca in Shub-e-Abi Talib that is never back down from truth even if enemies have besieged you.

Edited by Flying_Eagle
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 7/26/2020 at 8:26 AM, Flying_Eagle said:

An objective could be achieved by good means and by evil means, therefore, you have to be impartial, unbiased and thoughtful concerning the news of great personalities. 

For example: - Either you can boost your economy by creating demand in the world for your goods such as The US creates demands by instigating wars. But you can also boost your economy by creating demand without wars such as Japan makes every thing from pins of the paper to ships and whatnot and its economy is intact without wars.

Prophet (PBUHHP) made Arabia Muslim without attacking anyone but defended his companions and Allah's message. Prophecies of Prophet (PBUHHP) were also true like the Prophecy of Moses ((عليه السلام)) that he would bring end to the rule of pharaoh but that end was brought by pharaoh's own obstinacy that he would never submit to truth and although Prophet Moses ((عليه السلام)) did not strike him on his death but his death was caused due to his hatred for Moses (عليه السلام).

When truth makes sense, enemies arise to stop the source so that it may not make people to leave them and they become alone and without wealth. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is conquering whole world and this was foretold by Syeda Zainab (عليه السلام) that multitude would visit is shrine. 

If Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would have been made 1st Caliph, he would have swept Syria, Iran and whole world with logic, rationality, sincerity and love for the mankind but people showed back to Prophet's Ghadeer's promise and they invaded lands which Prophet disliked. 

So, keys were give and they were achieved but the method was not of Prophet's. Prophet's method was that shown in Mecca in Shub-e-Abi Talib that is never back down from truth even if enemies have besieged you.

Hmm.

i think some of you Shias live in a world of fantasy.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Hmm.

i think some of you Shias live in a world of fantasy.  

No, we think that you don't know divine personalities as you should have primarily because the hypocrisy of the world have made innocent selves to fall to the doctrine that except the way of oppression, you cannot gain.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 7/28/2020 at 9:22 AM, Flying_Eagle said:

No, we think that you don't know divine personalities as you should have primarily because the hypocrisy of the world have made innocent selves to fall to the doctrine that except the way of oppression, you cannot gain.

 

On 7/28/2020 at 9:22 AM, Flying_Eagle said:


 

WHAT?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On 7/26/2020 at 7:26 AM, Flying_Eagle said:

An objective could be achieved by good means and by evil means, therefore, you have to be impartial, unbiased and thoughtful concerning the news of great personalities. 

For example: - Either you can boost your economy by creating demand in the world for your goods such as The US creates demands by instigating wars. But you can also boost your economy by creating demand without wars such as Japan makes every thing from pins of the paper to ships and whatnot and its economy is intact without wars.

Prophet (PBUHHP) made Arabia Muslim without attacking anyone but defended his companions and Allah's message. Prophecies of Prophet (PBUHHP) were also true like the Prophecy of Moses ((عليه السلام)) that he would bring end to the rule of pharaoh but that end was brought by pharaoh's own obstinacy that he would never submit to truth and although Prophet Moses ((عليه السلام)) did not strike him on his death but his death was caused due to his hatred for Moses (عليه السلام).

When truth makes sense, enemies arise to stop the source so that it may not make people to leave them and they become alone and without wealth. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is conquering whole world and this was foretold by Syeda Zainab (عليه السلام) that multitude would visit is shrine. 

If Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would have been made 1st Caliph, he would have swept Syria, Iran and whole world with logic, rationality, sincerity and love for the mankind but people showed back to Prophet's Ghadeer's promise and they invaded lands which Prophet disliked. 

So, keys were give and they were achieved but the method was not of Prophet's. Prophet's method was that shown in Mecca in Shub-e-Abi Talib that is never back down from truth even if enemies have besieged you.

Salam

Japan is a protectorate of USA it cannot have survived this long without USN safeguarding it , only reason they were not punished after ww2 as imperialist policies in the west wanted to use them against Russia.Japanese have not atoned for their sins in ww2 and they are dangerously militaristic Society.

Arabia was not subdued in Prophets time without war , e.g battles of hunain,  taif and Khyber.In these Ali was a willing participant , they were not merely swayed away with logic and love 

Reasons why other tribes like yemen and hadramut  fell in line are multiple not the least of which was common bond of kinship with many allied tribes of hijaz plus the hopelessness of a organized resistance.Without doubt Ali (عليه السلام) good ikhlaq won lasting gratitude from some like Ta'i but numerous examples tell us this was not a non-violence movement.And these were not all good muslims either Ashath b qays and Wail b hujr amongst few who enthusiastically supported imam but later similarly backed muawiyah.So it was not always a winning of hearts but rather an excercise in extreme opportunism 

And remember it's the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who starts the wars with Romans by ghazwa Mootah not abu bakr (رضي الله عنه) or umar (رضي الله عنه) , so we cannot summarily dismiss these conquests as for purely worldly reasons 

Where do u think that army of usama was going that abubakr umar allegedly refused to join ? 

This is the most UNFAIR criticism of first 2 caliphs by 12ers that they engaged in illegal wars , sure methods of a few individual commanders were illegal or questionable but if you think any war of conquest was illegal then u need to explain why muhajireen of mecca and Ansar of medina were ruling all of Arabia by end of Prophets (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) time ?

Edited by Panzerwaffe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

And remember it's the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who starts the wars with Romans by ghazwa Mootah not abu bakr (رضي الله عنه) or umar (رضي الله عنه) , so we cannot summarily dismiss these conquests as for purely worldly reasons 

Salam prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) didn't  start  wars with Romans , it was Romans that started war with muslims that Ghazwa of Mootah was a response to attack  of Romans to Muslims but Abu bakr & Umar used this opportunity to start expanding wars in name of Islam but main advisors  of them were ex jews like Ka'ab Al Ahbar the ex rabbi that used Muslim army & three caliphs as puppets to defeat Romans in Jerusalem (Quds) & current Palestine  that till now Umar is most favorite  person between Zionist that even now they praise him & Salahid in Ayubi for conquering  Quds (Jerusalem) & surrending it to them in name of Islam & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wasn't  an opportunist , if he was such a person he would make an alliance  with cursed Muawiah  to make himself as a Emperor without suffering the wars at time of his caliphate like Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) advised to Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) that he can make a peace deal with cursed Muawiah  (la) & gaves him Syria (Shaam) then tricks him after a while but Imam Ali(عليه السلام) said that I'm not an opportunist & deceiver like Muawiah (la) that I just rule based on command of Allah & tradition  prophet  Muhammad (pbu) not like three caliphs .  

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 minutes ago, Rauf Murtuzov said:

Quran 9:29 approves expansion of Islam.

Typical wahabi interpretation  of holy Quran for killing & attacking to non muslims.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...