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Mutah as a business for women

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3 hours ago, Guest hmmz!Monad said:

The reverted lady in question should have known what she got her self into,

You are talking ideal 100% ethical situation. Many men marry women for green card etc or sometimes a woman marries a man for money. Sometimes it come out before the marriage has taken place but not always.

3 hours ago, Guest hmmz!Monad said:

the requirements are that both parties should know the agreements prior to that type of engagement

Again same thing, a man marries a woman giving her the impression that he wants to make it permanent while he really intends to end it really soon. People get deceived everyday and it not always their fault.

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3 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

  

By legally valid I mean that the couple are considered divorced by the law. The religious authority and the state would have to consider them divorced. So a divorce which causes much injustice may be haraam but it is legally valid. I suspect that when people are using the term halaal in this context they are thinking of legal validity in their mind.

By definition anything that results in the punishment of Allah is haraam. If some people want to state that the divorce is halaal but it results in injustice which is haraam, then that is not too far from what I have been saying. 

What do you mean by legislate? Legislation by state or religious authority is not what Islam teaches for this scenario, but there is the greater legislation of Allah (i.e. the punishment of Allah).

What I am arguing for is a change in how we communicate these ideas to people. People do stupid and harmful things because they don't think things through properly. E.g. when Trump spoke about injecting disinfectant, some people actually went and did it. If we don't elaborate to people when speaking about these rulings then you will get some people who will think something is halaal just because their received a one word answer. Some time ago someone told me that their father does mutah serially with different war widows and the family (including the mother) is struggling with accepting it. Their community actually thinks it's mustahab because that is apparently what their religious leaders told them. So I gave this person a contrary opinion (that this behavior is not mustahab). And that is my point, what we say on forums like this makes a difference to what may happen in the real world.

Ok, in that case I agree with you. I think the so-called ‘thighing fatwa’ is an even clearer example. Even though there I believe a good argument could be made for it being haraam based on all kinds of evils they would result from it, even if someone were to want to argue it is permissible from a strictly legalistic standpoint, it is completely irresponsible to issue such a verdict without giving any further clarification.

So yes, religious authorities need to do a much better job in communicating that even if some things maybe be permissible on the basis that there is no explicit evidence to declare them forbidden, that doesn’t mean that this is something that is necessarily ok to do, and in fact may be morally reprehensible depending on the circumstances.

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I found a very interesting post on facebook by someone named saddam Jamali, which explains why this woman charges so much money and why men are willing to pay so much. 

If you buy a second-hand Fiat for $2000 , you are likely to complain about it to anyone willing to hear. But if you buy a brand-new Ferrari for $200,000, you will sing its praises far and wide, not because it is such a good car, but because you have paid so much money for it that you must believe it is the most wonderful thing in the world. Even in romance, any aspiring Romeo or Werther knows that without sacrifice, there is not true love. The sacrifice is not just a way to convince your lover that you are serious-it is also a way to convince yourself that you are really in love. Why do you think women ask their lovers to bring them diamond rings? Once the lover makes such a huge financial sacrifice, he must convince himself that it was for a  worthy cause. 

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5 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

I found a very interesting post on facebook by someone named saddam Jamali, which explains why this woman charges so much money and why men are willing to pay so much. 

If you buy a second-hand Fiat for $2000 , you are likely to complain about it to anyone willing to hear. But if you buy a brand-new Ferrari for $200,000, you will sing its praises far and wide, not because it is such a good car, but because you have paid so much money for it that you must believe it is the most wonderful thing in the world. Even in romance, any aspiring Romeo or Werther knows that without sacrifice, there is not true love. The sacrifice is not just a way to convince your lover that you are serious-it is also a way to convince yourself that you are really in love. Why do you think women ask their lovers to bring them diamond rings? Once the lover makes such a huge financial sacrifice, he must convince himself that it was for a  worthy cause. 

I can actually identify with that, sometimes, often in fact I get some food from outside and it probably tastes quite awful or average at best. However because I have paid some money for it, I  convince myself that it was far better than it was.

But a few hours later when it launches a full scale assault on my digestive system it is hard to ignore the reality of the situation. I would imagine the same applies to your man with the expensive car.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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19 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

I can actually identify with that, sometimes, often in fact I get some food from outside and it probably tastes quite awful or average at best. However because I have paid some money for it, I  convince myself that it was far better than it was.

But a few hours later when it launches a full scale assault on my digestive system it is hard to ignore the reality of the situation. I would imagine the same applies to your man with the expensive car.

This also applies to people sacrificing for their lovers or any other political or religious causes. 

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1 hour ago, rkazmi33 said:

I found a very interesting post on facebook by someone named saddam Jamali, which explains why this woman charges so much money and why men are willing to pay so much. 

If you buy a second-hand Fiat for $2000 , you are likely to complain about it to anyone willing to hear. But if you buy a brand-new Ferrari for $200,000

So women are just like vehicle objects? I KNEW IT! And they've been faking being humans all this time <_<

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Guest law!Monad
23 hours ago, starlight said:

You are talking ideal 100% ethical situation.

regarding your post:.

The fundamental problem is how we are all addressing confusion while claiming we have established a form of thinking.

 Let us look for evidence.

https://www.al-islam.org/muta-temporary-marriage-islamic-law-sachiko-murata/statutes-muta#conditions-contract

see section conditions. If conditions are not set then it implies incorrect contractual agreements.

https://www.al-islam.org/marriage-according-five-schools-islamic-law-sheikh-muhammad-jawad-mughniyya/lineage-al-nasab#child-born-al-mutah

It is compulsory that mut'ah be contracted for a fixed period of time and it is necessary that this stipulated time be mentioned in the contract

Contractural obligations.

https://www.al-islam.org/marriage-according-five-schools-islamic-law-sheikh-muhammad-jawad-mughniyya/option-include

Therefore the issue is not regarding my ideal, but rather the haphazard methods of desperations and issuing illogical trust when conducting marriages. The fault lies in either both parties not wanting to cause offense because they are dealing with parrots, or the marriages are coercions, forced or ill intended and ignoring the true objective of what a marriage is for the human species.

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The other factor is how MA's post regarding Harm due to the causation of an act. Implying that  even though something can be legally valid, and  in his interpretation that, as it can cause harm therefore it is a sin. Clearly God is stating one is allowed to exchange based on desire while observing a said law.

And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another and ye have given unto one of them a sum of money (however great), take nothing from it. Would ye take it by the way of calumny and open wrong?

other translations. : https://quran.com/4/20

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/AlKafiVol6/Al Kafi V 6 - The Book Divorce (1).pdf

I do not know the grading of these narrations but I picked on out from Page 37out of 47

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Hammad, from Al Halby, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahaswshaving said: ‘There is no problem with a divorce of five upon every state –the one from whom her husband was absent, and the one who does not menstruate, and the one whom her husband had not sleptwith, and the pregnant, and the one who has despaired from the menstruations (menopause)’.

The question we must posit.

  • Are the female being discarded based on natural occurences. That is causations without intent or due to poor characteristics. (1)
  • If being due to their mental makeup then we can state divorce is an escape from ill behavior, however if the society lacked the infrastructure to take care of these women, then while divorce being legally valid, it would still be causing harm thus a sin according to MA.

(1) - Wife cheated - Forced marriage - undeveloped intellect - mental health issues, probably translated as a possession of Jin or of a devious nature.

further reading for both genders. Women do have divorce rights too. https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-ali-al-husayni-al-sistani/marriage-part-i-ii

we can notice the disregard for humans who are practically useless or become useless. Legally valid but also a sin according to MA.

see the reference regarding opening the can of worms I mentioned earlier.

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On 7/4/2020 at 5:39 PM, Guest hmmz!Monad said:

I'd "say" are you not conflating it according to your own bias ( as we all do ), that being at what you have being exposed to?. The reverted lady in question should have known what she got her self into, if she did enter the mutah marriage, the requirements are that both parties should know the agreements prior to that type of engagement. If one party was disingenuous then the contract would be void, infact she could take legal action. If X tells Y, that they are going to engage in a short term relationship and when it ends Y becomes depressed. The fault lies in Y and not X. As both parties had agreed to the end result.

What is the point of this text? If one party did wrong and we are discussing the religious permissibility of their action, then why bring up a hypothetical scenario which does not apply (i.e. she didn't do mutah)? Also why bring up legal action when that does not solve the problem? Even if hypothetically she did wrong, how does that change the moral value of what he did?

And I think we need to be more considerate for people who are young and naive; who may be duped by ill-intentioned people.

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There is no evidence that the said person is hurting her/his self. Again these are personality traits that we have to deal with. I am unsure as to how we come to the conclusion that an individuals is hurting themselves?. Collected data does not entail all brain types, there are some who enjoy high risk taking while some quiver at the site of a harmless spider.

I have noticed that you disagree with my posts when I oppose the excessive promotion of mutah. Yet you don't speak out against those posts which do the aforementioned promotion. If indeed you believe that people are different and will be affected by the act differently then why do you only speak up when one side makes its case and are completely silent when the other side does? There are people here who think mutah is mustahab in general (an absurd notion which is opposed by the history that we know) and you say nothing, but when I give a more balanced view where I say mutah is generally not recommended and is only for rare instance, you speak up?

This in opposition to your view that people are varied.

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I am unsure as to how we come to the conclusion that an individuals is hurting themselves?

The person is probably already hurt and broken and that is why they are doing it. If you want to discuss this seriously, then let me know.

I will respond to the rest of you post later.

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On 6/23/2020 at 11:39 PM, notme said:

Sure.

But a man is required to provide for his wife's financial needs and the only obligations of the wife are obedience and sexual availability. Marriage in its most basic form is not very different from prostitution.

The issue is more that she is "sampling", not that she is marrying rich men. It isn't haram, but it certainly isn't laudable either. She will probably have a difficult time when she decides to settle down. Her options will be very limited. 

She won't have any options, it's a different cup of tea altogether for permanent marriage, as beautiful intelligent rich girls are finding it hard to get married. Furthermore the same men who jump from one to other in their lust in the name of religion with the help of religion won't marry such a woman. Even here those who are actively arguing/ validating/ evidencing won't marry such a woman or allow their own daughter for reasons quoted by themselves.

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On 6/30/2020 at 6:15 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

Would it not be sensible to remove all five potential causes when rebuilding the house? Retaining one of them because "we don't know that it was the cause", would be recklessness.  You want evidence that it was a certain thing that caused it - but you don't even have evidence that it wasn't caused by it. So we must not do it out of caution.

No, because you could use this reasoning to justify anything. I declare that you must avoid snapping your fingers because there's no evidence this *doesn't* cause cars in China to crash when you do it.

What would be sensible is to conduct an investigation to find out which causes contributed and which didn't. At any rate, if the data were indeterminate, at best we could tell people to avoid all 5 factors as a precautionary measure - a matter of practical wisdom. What we could not do is declare that it is the eternal wisdom of God to avoid all 5 causes because they cause a fire.

On 6/30/2020 at 7:29 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

The harm of offense is not like the psychological harm of being divorced after a day of marriage. It is also not like the social harm of not being able to find a spouse thereafter. We are talking about actual harm here not "vague notions" or "conventional etiquette" as you put it. This isn't dependent on societal norms and opinions, it depends on human nature itself

Where is the evidence?

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On 7/15/2020 at 12:13 AM, Ayuoobi said:

Where is the evidence?

Are you serious? You want me to give you evidence that tricking a woman into marriage and divorcing them the day after will cause natural pain, and that pain isn't from societal norms?

There is something seriously wrong with you if you need evidence for that. I don't think we can take this conversation further.

@AmirioTheMuzzy you are liking that post?

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On 7/15/2020 at 12:13 AM, Ayuoobi said:

No, because you could use this reasoning to justify anything. I declare that you must avoid snapping your fingers because there's no evidence this *doesn't* cause cars in China to crash when you do it.

Why are taking that sentence out of context? When did I say that we must always act on a lack of evidence? I said that when we have evidence that one among a number of avoidable factors is a potential cause, then we must avoid that one thing too.

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What would be sensible is to conduct an investigation to find out which causes contributed and which didn't. At any rate, if the data were indeterminate, at best we could tell people to avoid all 5 factors as a precautionary measure - a matter of practical wisdom.

In some cases performing an investigation is not possible. And performing that investigation may cause harm.

Quote

What we could not do is declare that it is the eternal wisdom of God to avoid all 5 causes because they cause a fire.

By declaring the avoidance of all 5 factors as wajib, you are not claiming that it is eternal opinion of God that any one of those factors is harmful.

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Look how many pages this thread has gone. Wow, I didn't expect that. 

I think that people are focusing on the symptom and not the disease. The cause of all of this discussion is that there are many, many brothers, and some sisters whose options for marriage are so limited or non existent. The only women who would consider doing mutah for a business is a women who is in a desperate situation and feels she has no other options or she is extremely corrupt, because it is not natural for a women to want to be with many different men (i.e. a women's heart doesn't work that way naturally) . The only man who would consider marrying a women who does mutah as a business is a man who feel that he has no other options or is extremely corrupt. 

We should try to think how we got into this situation as an ummah or as a community that brothers and sisters are considering this, and try to solve the disease, not just the symptoms. 

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15 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

there are many, many brothers, and some sisters whose options for marriage are so limited or non existent.

Just a side topic....What does Islamic law say for people whose options for marriage are very limited or non existent? The general advice is that one should get married soon because it isn't possible to suppress the sexual desire for a long time. But when the option for marriage or mutah is non-existent and very remote, then that means that such a person is islamically expected to suppress the desire for very extended periods, even maybe for decades. If he then sins, can he put the blame of that sin on his genuine inability to get married? Does Islamic law differentiate between a sinner who sinned while he had the chance to get married vs. a person who sinned when he had no chance to get married? As far as I am aware, there is no difference. The punishment for sexual sins does not differentiate between one who is able to get married but remained unmarried by choice and one who had no availability for any chance to do nikah/mutah. This implies, I believe, that the law expects that even if someone is compelled to remain single for decades, he must be able to avoid sexual sins indefinitely. Is that a correct viewpoint? 

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7 hours ago, Anonymous-Male said:

Just a side topic....What does Islamic law say for people whose options for marriage are very limited or non existent? The general advice is that one should get married soon because it isn't possible to suppress the sexual desire for a long time. But when the option for marriage or mutah is non-existent and very remote, then that means that such a person is islamically expected to suppress the desire for very extended periods, even maybe for decades. If he then sins, can he put the blame of that sin on his genuine inability to get married? Does Islamic law differentiate between a sinner who sinned while he had the chance to get married vs. a person who sinned when he had no chance to get married? As far as I am aware, there is no difference. The punishment for sexual sins does not differentiate between one who is able to get married but remained unmarried by choice and one who had no availability for any chance to do nikah/mutah. This implies, I believe, that the law expects that even if someone is compelled to remain single for decades, he must be able to avoid sexual sins indefinitely. Is that a correct viewpoint? 

They are expected too, yes, but asking for forgiveness if they commit a sin is always an option. The Halal and Haram doesn't change, but the likelihood of forgiveness changes and the weight of the sin also changes. These are calibrated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) based on His(s.w.a) knowledge and the conditions of society at the time. There is a hadith that before the Zahoor, holding onto one's religion will be like trying to hold a hot coal in your hand. That is not because the religion is difficult to follow, but because there will be so much injustice and oppression in society, everywhere in the world, things, like getting married, that should be easy will become difficult. This is due to the oppression and injustice and the people's acceptance of non Islamic ideas and values as Islamic ideas and values. 

It is like your mom tells you, 'Go to the store and get some milk'. Now this task sounds easy to do, since stores are in almost every place and milk is widely available, meaning there is many cows all over the world that produce milk every day. Although this is true, how difficult the task is depends on circumstances. Even if there is alot of milk is avaliable, if a group of people decide to gather all the milk in the area and lock it up in a warehouse, so that they price of milk goes up to a high price even though there is alot of it, and the milk that is in the warehouse becomes rotten and not able to be sold and then wasted due to the actions of these people, then finding milk becomes more difficult. So those few people benefit while everyone else has to go without. This is the world we live in today unfortunately. At the same time, because of the widespread and pervasive nature of injustice and oppression, I believe that the Zahoor is very close. 

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