Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Diaz

Mutah as a business for women

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Guest Khanb
14 hours ago, Bakir said:

I'm saying we should do our best to identify the causes why mutah is exploited (as can be seen in the BBC documentary or the OP's post), and build social strategies to fight against it.

I'm not against mutah by itself. Rather the contrary, I think it can be very useful. But it very much depends on the context it takes place.

Consent must be genuine, not out of need. Women should marry (in mutah) for similar reasons, to enjoy, not to make money.

Mutah being used to make money points at a social problem. And blaming the woman that does it is very short sighted (it's like blaming prostitutes for having sex for money).

I mentioned abolitionist feminism because it thinks of strategies to overcome prostitution, as it is understood as something sexists that, in the short term, we will have to tolerate (because those women don't have a safe and efficient exit path).

Men are the ones with high sexual desires. The only benefit women see in  multiple mutah marriages is the financial benefit. There is no other reason a woman would do this. 

The reason why Shias enter mutah marriages is to find the compatibleity with their potential spouse and to see whether their marriages would work out. 

Islam does not allow unlimited marriages with the intention of divorce. The woman in this case is being disrespectful towards mutah and is transgressing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/23/2020 at 11:08 PM, Diaz said:

Like, she doesn’t want to be with one man forever. Instead, she want to be with a man for 1-2 months and after few months she will be with another man. 

 

13 hours ago, ShiaChat Mod said:

Polygamy? You mean that she is marrying mutah as a second, third or fourth wife of a rich man? 

Read above. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Guest Khanb said:

Men are the ones with high sexual desires. The only benefit women see in  multiple mutah marriages is the financial benefit. There is no other reason a woman would do this. 

Don’t women like men vary from one another on sex drive? Today’s girls from 14 to 21 throw themselves at men like there’s no tomorrow and are really horny which got me questioning and believing that women start getting excited at late 20’s or I’m their 30’s and up is a fallacy. 

As for men it is well established that men who tend do by hairy will maintain a really high sex drive even when they are old. This could be not the case if this is possibly false. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Guest Khanb said:

The reason why Shias enter mutah marriages is to find the compatibleity with their potential spouse and to see whether their marriages would work out.

That's certainly not the origin of mut'ah and nor is it the definition of mut'ah. Possibly some people use it as an 'engagement' these days but this certainly isn't the background behind it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I dont agree brother.

I think even halal things can be abused by having an immoral niyaah. For example:

A man could marry a young virgin girl who he finds attractive, be intimate with her, and then divorce her the next day. All of this would be halal for him to do.

However, his niyyah was just to be intimate with her and not to build a life with her, now she will face difficulties getting remarried and he goes on with his life doing the same over and over again. 

Thuss he has abused something halal with his immoral niyyah and he will be judged accordingly.

You are wrong. A halaal act which leads to haraam is also considered haraam. You will find this principle of jurisprudence taught by both sunni and shia scholars. An example which is often given by some scholars is the transport of alcohol. Transporting alcohol is itself not haraam. It is in fact halaal. But if it is done when it leads to consumption then it is haraam (e.g. transporting it to a party). There could be case where it is transported for chemical analysis or disposal etc wherein it is halaal.

Halal acts can change to haraam acts. It is a well known principle. Go and ask people who have studied fiqh. It is incorrect to say the act is halaal with immoral consequences. Rather the act itself become haraam. Now it is possible that the scholar you are asking believes that any particular consequence falls under akhlaq and not fiqh, but that is a different subject and I have previously mentioned that this differentiation is rationally unsound. 

I believe it is very dangerous to label such acts as halaal because it gives people the impression that there is no divine punishment for them and there is no immoral consequence. So the man in your example could say  "I did nothing wrong, because it was halaal". And this exactly what happens in the muslim community. People doing bad things because they look at the law in isolation.

Seriously, would the creator of this magnificent universe send a perfect religion wherein it is halaal to ruin the life of another person? Does that even sound right?

Edited by Muhammed Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Seriously, would the creator of this magnificent universe send a perfect religion wherein it is halaal to ruin the life of another person? Does that even sound right?

You speak as if there was no accountalbity to ones actions.

I think the example that you gave about transporting alcohol is not the same as what I was speaking about.

So with regards to the example I was mentioning I dont agree with the notion that halal and haram changes just because some people seek to act immoral. Just because something is possible do to, does not mean it's advisable to do it and this comes down to each person to show his true nature by the choices he makes. 

One could also bring examples from the rights of marriage that you may wish to enforce upon your wife, such as taking a second wife without considering the first wifes opinion, again, very much halal (even sunnah) though not a kind thing to do.

What do you think separates two muslims in their degrees if both have lived by halal and haram?

One could have lived his whole life only thinking of himself and only serving himself while the other could have lived his whole life serving others and helping others. Both living by halal and haram.

Nobody is fooling anyone except for themselves and we will all have to answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

You are wrong. A halaal act which leads to haraam is also considered haraam. You will find this principle of jurisprudence taught by both sunni and shia scholars. An example which is often given by some scholars is the transport of alcohol. Transporting alcohol is itself not haraam. It is in fact halaal

Buying, selling, transporting and consuming alcohol are all haram.

As for an act leading to haraam, you are correct but this isn't what the brother was referring to. 

Quote

I believe it is very dangerous to label such acts as halaal because it gives people the impression that there is no divine punishment for them and there is no immoral consequence.

It is equally dangerous to label something haraam when it isn't. 

Edited by Mahdavist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I think the example that you gave about transporting alcohol is not the same as what I was speaking about.

So with regards to the example I was mentioning I dont agree with the notion that halal and haram changes just because some people seek to act immoral. Just because something is possible do to, does not mean it's advisable to do it and this comes down to each person to show his true nature by the choices he makes. 

How can something be immoral and harm another person but also not be considered haraam? I think we will both agree that harming another person will result in punishment from Allah, and that by definition is haraam. In fact this is one of the ways in which scholars decided whether an act is haraam or makhrooh when they read the ahadith.

I think we both agree that the act is wrong but where we disagree is the label to give it.

You need to justify why the analogy of alcohol isn't appropriate. I think it is an appropriate analogy. 

Quote

One could also bring examples from the rights of marriage that you may wish to enforce upon your wife, such as taking a second wife without considering the first wifes opinion, again, very much halal (even sunnah) though not a kind thing to do.

Is it sunnah to marry a 2nd wife without considering the 1st's opinion? 

Read these rulings: you will see that among them the ruling for polygamy changes depending upon circumstance. Some responses will give you a fatwa without considering the greater context and others wont. And we shouldn't do something without considering the greater context. E.g. if marrying a 2nd could hypothetically cause societal conflict, is it still not haraam?

 

 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Buying, selling, transporting and consuming alcohol are all haram.

Transporting alcohol isn't haraam on its own, as I pointed out earlier. Even the ruling of buying and selling alcohol could change depending on circumstance. These things have been stated as haraam because of their normal contexts.

Quote

As for an act leading to haraam, you are correct but this isn't what the brother was referring to.

You need to explain this.

Quote

It is equally dangerous to label something haraam when it isn't. 

Is harming someone psychologically or ruining their reputation haraam or not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2020 at 8:07 PM, Guest Molana Laddan said:

All married women are permanent slaves, sometimes doubling as sex slaves, all men are slave owners, most men are women manipulators,

Astaghfirullah,

Edited by Shahrukh K

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2020 at 5:17 AM, hasanhh said:

l remember from a biography of Ayatollah Khomenei l read that when he was in seminary, he was disgusted with the majority of the seminarians because they had mutah wives for only the time they were in school.

Salam he wasn't interested in marriage until he finished his basic courses that after finishing all required lessons  in seminary his close relatives pushed him to marriage that when he talked with his future wife then his wife made some conditions  that one of conditions was that he must not marry with another woman until she is his wife  that Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) accepted all of her conditions but just asked from her to just preserves  her obligatory  Sharia  rulings as a wife.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Guest Khanb said:

Men are the ones with high sexual desires. The only benefit women see in  multiple mutah marriages is the financial benefit. There is no other reason a woman would do this. 

The reason why Shias enter mutah marriages is to find the compatibleity with their potential spouse and to see whether their marriages would work out. 

Islam does not allow unlimited marriages with the intention of divorce. The woman in this case is being disrespectful towards mutah and is transgressing

Your understanding of sexuality is wrong (even using the lens of Islamic narrations, not to mention modern day research on sexuality).

Your understanding of mutah is wrong as it has been previosly mentioned (though it may be used in that context).

As for the woman, I liked sister starlight's answer. A woman in a safe and protected house and family would never end up doing this. Something has failed. If the family is so poor that it has to humiliate itself to this point, this is a social problem, and it's not the girl to blame. All households should have a minimum wage to survive without losing their dignity. In the other hand, if the girl is suffering from some sort of abuse at her house, and she is forced to leave and survive in this way, we should have public mechanisms to protect these women, since they are victims in this case.

We should PREVENT women from falling into this lifestyle, since it basically destroys you in a way that it's significantly hard to ammend. It's not just a matter of money to repair their lives.

Edited by Bakir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Yes very holy to be married several times temporarily for 10k+ as dowry with several different men. Very holy brother.

She must be a weapon to charge 10k... and with several different men aswell??! The last time I checked hoories don’t  exsist on earth. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

She must be a weapon to charge 10k... and with several different men aswell??! The last time I checked hoories don’t  exsist on earth. 

Imagine if she had adult kids. What they would think of their own mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Imagine if she had adult kids. What they would think of their own mother.

I feel sorry for them and the pain that they would go through would be such a burden. I hope she doesn’t plan on having kids or gets tricked into having them. Also hope that she turn her life around and make things right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What she does can make a big problem: she will be mahram to many people whom she may even dont know (her fathers in-law and her sons in-law). Her marriages are not registered so she wont know the men to whom she is mahram. And her future daughters will also be mahram to her ex-husbands. This is not good at all. 

She may also pass on some diseases such as AIDS or Hepatitis to other people.

Frequently changing the spouse (whether permanent or temporary spouse) for the sake of money or merely out of lust, not only is disgusting but it makes the person more greedy and will have negative effects on his spiritual health.

If she needs financial support, she can permanently marry and if she cannot do it even as the 2nd wife (which is unlikely), at least she can work at people's homes in order to earn some income.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As other have said, what she is doing is not haram, but it is also not wise and not keeping with the 'aklaqi' (behavioral norms and values) aspect of Islam. 

The Fiqi aspects of the religion (Halal, Haram) are the absolute lines which cannot be crossed. These give a broad outline of the religion. Like if you someone told you, 'Draw this person', you could draw a stick figure with the basic proportions (height, symmetry, etc) of the person. But what can you understand about the person from the stick figure drawing ? Well you know that the size of his head is approx 1/8 the size of his body, his body is symmetrical (both arms and legs are the same length), etc. But noone is going to frame your stick figure or buy it from you or frame it and put it up in a gallery. Why ? Because although it is accurate in certain aspects, it gives you very little information about the person. 

That is what the halal and haram is. A stick figure drawing of the religion of Islam. In order to understand what the religion is, you need to delve into the aklaqi aspects of the religion. This will give you a much more complete picture. 

It is not haram, to , for example, eat a 5,000 calorie a day diet, except if you eat any of those calories during the daytime in Ramadan. Does that mean that it is ok, fine, acceptable, and you should promote this sort of eating habit. Absolutely not. Besides the medical reasons not to do this (obesity, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc), there are many aklaqi reasons not to do it, and these are taught to us by our Imams((عليه السلام)) in many authentic hadith.

So this act of serial mutah for money is not haram, unless it involves deception (if she doesn't fulfill the terms of the contract or she lies to her spouse so that the contract becomes invalid Islamically) and / or she does not observe the iddah of mutah (which is two menstrual cycles if she is marrying a different man). But does that mean that it keeps with the Aklaqi aspects of the religion. That depends, but probably not. For example, if this women has been abandoned by her family and community and she has no other way to make a living besides doing this, then this is something done out of necessity, and this is a different subject. From what the op said, it sounds like she has other options, and this is a choice she is making in order to amass a large amount of wealth for herself(i.e. a gold digger) . If that is the case, then it goes against the aklaqi aspects of the religion. Also, the 'business' that she is in has a definite time limit. Unless she lies about how many men she has been married to  eventually then men she is marrying would not agree to her terms because most men are repulsed by a women who has been with many different men and would not pay a large amount of money for a mahr under those circumstances even if they had the money to pay it. So from a aklaqi perspective it is not advisable to do it, and even from a purely business point of view it is not advisable to do it, if she is willing to stay within the boundaries of Islam. This is because in this type of business the only way to really make money is to lie about the number of different men the girl has been with (which is haram) and not observe the iddah, which is also haram. So if she is only willing to do this within the boundaries of Sharia, then it is not a viable business, again from a purely business / economic perspective. 

Edited by Hameedeh
Post was edited to remove a large empty space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Unless she lies about how many men she has been married to (which would invalidate the contract and then all her actions are zina and not marriage)

Are you sure about this?

What if men hide their previous mutahs from their permanent wives? or lie to a mutah wife about how many temporary wives they had in the past? Does this make the nikkah void???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

most men are repulsed by a women who has been with many different men

Do women feel the same way? Are they repulsed by a man who has multiple wives? If a man gets a second wife, he Islamically has the right to do so, but if his wife feels repulsed by him because he now shares himself with another woman, is that repulsion acceptable in Islam. Most likely the answer is no. Islamically, the first wife would need to suppress her feelings of replusion and if she cannot bare it, then she can request divorce. 

Strangely, is it ever possible for a man to feel replused by the thought of having more than one wife? Of course, that is almost impossible and rather unislamic. But can women feel replused by the thought of marrying any other man after they get divorced or widowed....(out of love and devotion for their first husband if they become widow .... or out of disgust for men in general if they get divorced)?

Edited by Maisam Haider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

Also, the 'business' that she is in has a definite time limit. Unless she lies about how many men she has been married to (which would invalidate the contract and then all her actions are zina and not marriage)

A woman must confess to how many men she has been with in the past for marriage to be in order? I havn't heard of this before.

If the man asks the woman and the woman lies about it, she has committed a sin and the marriage is void?

Last time I remember, even a non virgin woman through zina is considered virgin islamically if I remember correctly. Not sure if this is unanimous amongst all ayatullahs though.

Do they have to confess their sins before getting married if asked to do so? or is forgivness to Allah enough. Obviously there might be some problems in future if both partners are not aware of each others pasts that might be of importance or repel each other from one another. But how does this work islamically.

Edited by AkhiraisReal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

How can something be immoral and harm another person but also not be considered haraam? I think we will both agree that harming another person will result in punishment from Allah, and that by definition is haraam. In fact this is one of the ways in which scholars decided whether an act is haraam or makhrooh when they read the ahadith.

I think we both agree that the act is wrong but where we disagree is the label to give it.

You need to justify why the analogy of alcohol isn't appropriate. I think it is an appropriate analogy. 

I dont think the alchohol analogy is the same because what you are talking about will lead to haram, the consumption of alchohol.

In my analogy what I was talking about does not lead to haram, divorce is not haram.

19 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Is it sunnah to marry a 2nd wife without considering the 1st's opinion? 

I think you misunderstood what I said, I meant that marrying more than 1 wife in general is sunnah, not that marrying a second wife without the consideration of the first is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, starlight said:

Are you sure about this?

What if men hide their previous mutahs from their permanent wives? or lie to a mutah wife about how many temporary wives they had in the past? Does this make the nikkah void???

From what I know regarding the subject, if either spouse lies to the other with regards to past relationships, and then one of the spouses finds out, it destroys the trust in the marriage. This most of the time leads to divorce. So it doesn't invalidate the marriage from a fiqh point of view, but it undermines the basis of the marriage, which is trust between spouses, which basically renders the marriage null and void, from a practical perspective. In Islam, marriage is a working relationship between spouses. It involves mutual cooperation and teamwork. If there is no trust, there is no mutual cooperation and no teamwork. This is what I mean by 'invalid'. Not from a fiqh point of view. My original point still stands. Lying about this is haram, and a major sin. So if she wants to do this as a 'business', she will have to go outside the Sharia to do it (to make it a viable business from an economic point of view).

 

BTW, I edited my post. Lying about this is haram, but it doesn't render the marriage void from a fiqh perspective. But from a practical, working perspective it does. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

A woman must confess to how many men she has been with in the past for marriage to be in order? I havn't heard of this before.

If the man asks the woman and the woman lies about it, she has committed a sin and the marriage is void?

Last time I remember, even a non virgin woman through zina is considered virgin islamically if I remember correctly. Not sure if this is unanimous amongst all ayatullahs though.

Do they have to confess their sins before getting married if asked to do so? or is forgivness to Allah enough. Obviously there might be some problems in future if both partners are not aware of each others pasts that might be of importance or repel each other from one another. But how does this work islamically.

See my post below. I made a mistake and edited my post. It doesn't render it null and void from a fiqh perspective, but it destroys the trust between the spouses. Since a real marriage is based on trust, when there is no trust, there is no marriage from a practical and spiritual point of view. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Maisam Haider said:

Do women feel the same way? Are they repulsed by a man who has multiple wives? If a man gets a second wife, he Islamically has the right to do so, but if his wife feels repulsed by him because he now shares himself with another woman, is that repulsion acceptable in Islam. Most likely the answer is no. Islamically, the first wife would need to suppress her feelings of replusion and if she cannot bare it, then she can request divorce. 

Strangely, is it ever possible for a man to feel replused by the thought of having more than one wife? Of course, that is almost impossible and rather unislamic. But can women feel replused by the thought of marrying any other man after they get divorced or widowed....(out of love and devotion for their first husband if they become widow .... or out of disgust for men in general if they get divorced)?

I am speaking in general, not for everyone. From my experience, which is of course limited, men are repulsed by women who have been with many different men. As to if a women feels the same way, I don't know. I'm not a women, and being as I observe the rules of modesty in Islam, I am not privy to those conversations with women. 

Repulsion is an emotion. We don't choose it, it is a process that occurs in ourselves. We can choose how to react to it. My point was that if she is trying to make a business out of being with many different men for mutah, it won't work, because the mahr she is asking for (I think the OP said 5 to 10k dollars per month, etc) is outside of the 'market rate' for a women who has been with more than a few men. Yes, there is a market for this and rates, I don't want to go into too many details about this, but trust me. You can google it. (actually I don't recommend googling it, you might see some inappropriate content). 

For those who don't know how the male psyche works, it works like this. They will choose the best option for this amoung the options that are available to them. If they have a wife whom they love and are attracted to and have a good relationship with, and she is available to them, they will take this option. They don't need a second one. The main reason they are attracted to her, and they have a good relationship is because he knows that this women is 'his' as far as what we are talking about goes, not in an absolute sense, and he trusts her. So this plus trust allows love to develop. This is the best case scenario. Also, men have the ability to have multiple first options, meaning multiple women whom they love, are attracted to and have built a relationship with. If this wasn't possible, then it wouldn't be allowed Islamically. But the reason why most muslim men, the vast majority, don't actually do this is economic and sometimes cultural, etc. It is not because they don't have the ability to do it. 

If this is not available to him, he will go with the second, third, etc option, because this is a need he has, and he will fulfill it one way or another. The reason why men go to prostitutes is because their first, second, maybe even third options aren't available. For a muslim man, this isn't even an option at all, but there are other options. But obviously these are not as valuble to them as their first option, so the amount of money, time, and energy they are willing to spend is alot less, compared to the first. This is my point. Sorry if it is long winded. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

men have the ability to have multiple first options, meaning multiple women whom they love, are attracted to and have built a relationship with.

Yes. It can be same for women, if they get divorced or widowed and then remarry. This shows that although marriage is meant to be a great bond of love between husband and wife, it isn't designed to be an exclusive relationship. Islam strongly recommends marriage and encourages love between husband and wife, but it does not favour that couples should love each other to such an extent that they will not consider having more partners. The love has to fall short of this feeling. The love between husband and wife has to be restricted in such a way that both individuals can have room in their hearts to share their love with other partners, if need arises. So there is nothing unique in any couple - a man should not say to his wife that she is and will remain the only woman in his life (because if she dies, it would be recommended to him to remarry). Likewise, a wife can love her husband tremendously, but at the same time, she should be prepared and be ready to accept the fact that she might have to find a new husband if the first one dies.

So, even though the bond of marriage is considered as the best relationship, but at the same time, it is meant to be so weak in the sense that it can be very temporary, can end intentionally or unintentionally, and is not designed to be "unique" between the couple. Husband and wife may love each other a lot, but should also keep in their minds that they are not meant to be each other's sole and one-and-the-only partner. Even in heaven, people will have multiple partners and that will negate the feeling of any person to say to his partner that you are my only love. This is Allah's planning where he wants us to share our love, our lives, our bodies with multiple partners instead of just one. 

I'm not defending that men should enter into serial mutahs or women should do mutah as busuness, rather I'm referring to the fact that even in a monogamous marriage, the chances of multiple partners in future is a realistic possibility, showing that husband and wife should love each other but understand that they cannot remain dedicated and devoted to each other solely. It can be a very temporary relationship and one may be required to move on and find new partners. 

Edited by Maisam Haider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Khanb
6 hours ago, Bakir said:

Your understanding of sexuality is wrong (even using the lens of Islamic narrations, not to mention modern day research on sexuality).

Your understanding of mutah is wrong as it has been previosly mentioned (though it may be used in that context).

As for the woman, I liked sister starlight's answer. A woman in a safe and protected house and family would never end up doing this. Something has failed. If the family is so poor that it has to humiliate itself to this point, this is a social problem, and it's not the girl to blame. All households should have a minimum wage to survive without losing their dignity. In the other hand, if the girl is suffering from some sort of abuse at her house, and she is forced to leave and survive in this way, we should have public mechanisms to protect these women, since they are victims in this case.

We should PREVENT women from falling into this lifestyle, since it basically destroys you in a way that it's significantly hard to ammend. It's not just a matter of money to repair their lives.

How is my understanding islamically wrong? Women are said to be a test for men. What does that imply? In the past Shia societies, it was the low class slave women who practiced mutah. Women still value men who have financial stability. Women do not chose their partners on the basis of physical attraction. Nothing has changed.

Modern research accounts for the effects of sexual perversion spread by the media, that is why western research on sexuality is not indicative of women's natural behavior before the sexual indoctrination by the media. 

Which text in all of Islamic literature states that women have equally high sexual desires? 

I never said that mutahs purpose is to speculate whether a marriage would work or not. I only said that is one of the main reasons many Shias enter into mutah marriages. 

Most of crime is linked to poverty(not saying a crime is being committed in this case)Focusing on  social issues is not relevant  to this discussion. Women aren't the only victims of inequality. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I dont think the alchohol analogy is the same because what you are talking about will lead to haram, the consumption of alchohol.

In my analogy what I was talking about does not lead to haram, divorce is not haram.

What is clearly haraam in that scenario is the hurt that it will cause the woman. She will be hurt psychologically and socially. She may even find it hard to find another husband. To do that to a person is haraam.

If I were to ask you the following without any context: "Is it halaal to ruin the chances of someone getting married and to severely hurt their feelings?" You would say it's haraam. But for some reason when it is caused by a prior halaal act it is not haraam? To me that is unsound.

And divorce can be haraam too. With the principles that I have already explained. It depends upon the context. 

Al-Kafi: https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/AlKafiVol6/Al Kafi V 6 - The Book Divorce (1).pdf last hadith first chapter.

Quote

And by his chain, from Abu Abdullah {s} having said: ‘It reached the Prophet {s} that Abu Ayoub intends to divorce his wife. So he {s} said: ‘Divorce of the mother of Ayoub is a wrongdoing’

إن طلاق أُم أيُّوب لَحُوبُ

The same word is used in the Quran in this verse which prohibits stealing the wealth of orphans: https://quran.com/4/2

إِنَّهُ كَانَ حُوبًا كَبِيرًا

That chapter is about not divorcing a compatible wife. That is the context of that hadith. Abu Ayyub was divorcing a wife without good reason.

I think people in this forum who keep saying evil things are halaal probably need to use the words such as legally valid. It was legally valid to divorce Umm Ayyub but it was a sin. In the same way that is it legally valid to miss prayers but it is a sin. Islam allows people to do some things without legal intervention but it is still haraam to do those things.

Quote

I think you misunderstood what I said, I meant that marrying more than 1 wife in general is sunnah, not that marrying a second wife without the consideration of the first is.

I knew what you meant but I was trying to make a point. Perhaps later. 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/26/2020 at 3:33 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

Transporting alcohol isn't haraam on its own, as I pointed out earlier

It is haraam brother. Refer to the famous narration recorded by Sheikh al Saduq in Man la Yahdhurul Faqih:

Allah has accursed alcohol, its growers, those who squeeze it [from the grapes], its drinkers, its servers, its buyers, its sellers, those who live on its income, its transporter, and the one to whom it is being transported.”

On 6/26/2020 at 3:33 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

Is harming someone psychologically or ruining their reputation haraam or not?

The issue here is that these are subjective points and therefore we cannot categorically declare something halal as haraam. 

For sure, many wives might object to their husbands marrying a second wife but their objection might not be justified. We cannot therefore outlaw a halal act which is mustahab and in some cases may even be wajib just because people don't like it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mahdavist said:

It is haraam brother. Refer to the famous narration recorded by Sheikh al Saduq in Man la Yahdhurul Faqih:

I have already mentioned that it is called haraam in those ahadith because of the usage. It was already understood by the listeners what the alcohol was used for. No one could seriously say that transporting alcohol to dispose of it is also haraam. In fact it would be a good deed to remove it from society.

Quote

The issue here is that these are subjective points and therefore we cannot categorically declare something halal as haraam. 

That leads to a different subject altogether. We can discuss whether or not these actions harm people. For me they are obviously harmful, and for some others they might not be. But the principle remains that the consequences can make a halaal act into haraam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I have already mentioned that it is called haraam in those ahadith because of the usage. It was already understood by the listeners what the alcohol was used for. No one could seriously say that transporting alcohol to dispose of it is also haraam. In fact it would be a good deed to remove it from society.

That leads to a different subject altogether. We can discuss whether or not these actions harm people. For me they are obviously harmful, and for some others they might not be. But the principle remains that the consequences can make a halaal act into haraam.

Brother you are using exceptions as rules. You say transporting alcohol is not haram in itself, and you point to an example where it's being disposed of.

Rather, it is haraam in itself and as an exception it may become permissible if one is disposing of it.

The second point: I agree that permissible acts can become impermissible in certain situations. However there needs to be a basis for this. It cannot be based on vague notions (eating meat is haram because vegetarians could be offended, marrying a white woman is haram because ethnics could be offended etc etc). 

In addition to jurisprudence, one must of course use wisdom, judgement and common sense. Of course I would avoid eating meat in the presence of a vegetarian friend. This is good manners and good judgement. But we cannot start labelling things as haram in the way you are categorically doing just because it doesn't follow conventional etiquette or norms. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

The reason why men go to prostitutes is because their first, second, maybe even third options aren't available. For a muslim man, this isn't even an option at all,

I just have to add that some marjae allow mutah with prostitutes albeit makrooh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

I just have to add that some marjae allow mutah with prostitutes albeit makrooh.

How does it work with iddah though. Because a prostitute doesn't observe iddah.

And if the man knows the prostitute will not observe iddah and/or has not observed iddah from previous intimacy, is the contract still valid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

How does it work with iddah though. Because a prostitute doesn't observe iddah.

And if the man knows the prostitute will not observe iddah and/or has not observed iddah from previous intimacy, is the contract still valid?

To my understanding the iddah of a women is not the man's responsibility, rather it is her own responsibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...