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In the Name of God بسم الله
Diaz

Mutah as a business for women

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13 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

They don't but time could be very relevant and the how it effects people. This day Marrying minor is not same that in old time where people develop faster. 

It's the opposite I think. Children are hitting puberty earlier now. 

I believe this fatwa is there only if such extreme circumstances arise.There are numerous narrations by Masoomen (عليه السلام) and rulings by Marjas that stress upon obtaining the consent of girl for marriage. 

About Mutah as a business we are making a lot of assumptions and judgements based on very little actual information. What's noteworthy is that most of judging is for the girl,calling her a prostitute etc, very few has said anything about the men who happily agree to be in a temporary relationship and shower money and gift on her. 

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I dont see anything wrong with what she is doing in terms of halal and haram.

Nor do I think we should look at marriage in islam with a western lense, in marriage the man is bound to supply for his wife(money) and the wife is bound to give him exclusive rights to her body(sex). Depending on what definition each and everyone use to define a prostitute, it could possibly end up in all married women falling under the definition.

One more thing to remember is that many women enter marriage as a form of security (mainly financial security), not necessarily out of insane love, sorry to say but life is not a hollywood romantic movie everywhere on earth.

Forgetting about halal and haram for a moment, of course what she is doing is not something a normal person would do because it will most certainly leave her scared as well as ruin her reputation in her community. Having said that, we don't know the full story and it could very well be as such that her parents are terminally ill and she has to provide money for their care. For all we know she could be feeding an entire village out in nowhere with her money or 100 orphans who depend on her money to be able to eat.

The problem with trying to force moral choices on fiqh (as in making them fiqh) is that the niyyah of why we do something or do not do something becomes totally overshadowed and irrelevant. There are strict boundaries (halal/haram) and then there are reason why we act different within those boundaries all of which will be examined and answered for on yawm al qiyamah.

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I believe this fatwa is there only if such extreme circumstances arise.There are numerous narrations by Masoomen (عليه السلام) and rulings by Marjas that stress upon obtaining the consent of girl for marriage. 

I agree.

Quote

About Mutah as a business we are making a lot of assumptions and judgements based on very little actual information. What's noteworthy is that most of judging is for the girl,calling her a prostitute etc, very few has said anything about the men who happily agree to be in a temporary relationship and shower money and gift on her. 

The assumptions are just possibilities. I'm more consider on the narrations that show how God dislike tasters. What she or he or whoever who do this in same manner, are they included in same category?

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Forgetting about halal and haram for a moment, of course what she is doing is not something a normal person would do because it will most certainly leave her scared as well as ruin her reputation in her community. Having said that, we don't know the full story and it could very well be as such that her parents are terminally ill and she has to provide money for their care. For all we know she could be feeding an entire village out in nowhere with her money or 100 orphans who depend on her money to be able to eat.

From all available possibilities to seek rizk, she must choose this one? But it is sad because it surely will ruin her reputation and could effect her heart in very negative way. Or perhaps the heart just desired money and sex that does not bring any purification, common thing happening in this wordily life.

But when something is made halal, it is pointless usually to even talk about different scenarios.

Edited by Abu Nur

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

From all available possibilities to seek rizk, she must choose this one? But it is sad because it surely will ruin her reputation and could effect her heart in very negative way. Or perhaps the heart just desired money and sex that does not bring any purification, common thing happening in this wordily life.

But when something is made halal, it is pointless usually to even talk about different scenarios.

Ultimately we don't know her situation and niyah (the scenario). I also know some women don't have any other choice. As people with choice we should try and help those without choices.

I don't think it is pointless to talk about the scenario when it comes to halal because even halal things can be abused (like any set of laws) but it requires us to know the scenario and we don't, ultimately she will be judged by God, just like us.

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Guest Dan

Her intentions are bad. She only wants money.  I am under the impression that mutah should only be done when there is no other option, i.e during wars. It should be done with sincerity, not for prostitution. 

But come to think of it, why on earth would a woman be involved in mutah marriages ? For money. Even in the Shia societies of the past, the women involved in mutah marriages were low class slave women. What reason would a woman have to fulfill a mans sexual desires?

Do not get offended  when people the term this as halal prostitution, because that fits the definition of mutah.

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Guest Khanb
2 hours ago, starlight said:

It's the opposite I think. Children are hitting puberty earlier now. 

I believe this fatwa is there only if such extreme circumstances arise.There are numerous narrations by Masoomen (عليه السلام) and rulings by Marjas that stress upon obtaining the consent of girl for marriage. 

About Mutah as a business we are making a lot of assumptions and judgements based on very little actual information. What's noteworthy is that most of judging is for the girl,calling her a prostitute etc, very few has said anything about the men who happily agree to be in a temporary relationship and shower money and gift on her. 

All men have sexual desires, that is something you cannot change, its how men were created.

  Just because addicts crave drugs does not mean we should not stop the drug dealers. The drug dealers are to be stopped to prevent new victims falling into addiction.   The blame is more on the dealers than the potential customers.

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33 minutes ago, Guest Khanb said:

All men have sexual desires, that is something you cannot change, its how men were created

All those men have wives too to fulfill their sexual desires. The problem is lack of controlling over nafs.

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8 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

There are examples beyond A'isha. How old was Fatimah Zahrah (عليه السلام) when she got married? 

A lot of marriages then, like in Europe and Asia, were socio-political-connection-building affairs. The troubador tradition started in ltaly when so-c alled "love" entered the marriage picture.

Which leads me to repeat this story: back in the 80s, one of the women l worked with would tell the story of her grandmother: her grandmother was traded for a cow at four years of age and married to a twelve-year-old.

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The concept of prostitution is that she gives sex for money to anyone who pays up but with her case she is being clever by using mutah to fulfil that concept in halal way.

no permanent wife can be a prostitute, she can be the best and make you go from mild to wild that does not make her a pornstar nor a prostitute it’s simply both of you having fun in the bedroom their is a big difference. 

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Guest Molana Laddan

Shame on all of you who equate holy institution of marriage with prostitution. 

Going by the lingo of anybody who thinks any form of marriage (Mutah or Deam) is prostitution:

All married women are permanent slaves, sometimes doubling as sex slaves, all men are slave owners, most men are women manipulators, all fathers who give their daughter in marriage are filthy pimps, all mothers raising their daughters to be a worthy spouse are madams raising their flock of girls as investment, all mehr money is the price of women, all women staying under the roof of their husbands are [edit] trading the molestation of their bodies in return for luxuries, all homes and houses are brothels, and all religious institutions where such matchmaking becomes officiated are the slave markets, or red light areas. 
 

Lastly you who believe this is the son of this and your mom is that and your dad is that, and your sis is that, you are this. 
 

The Difference in every halal and haram is the CONTRACT. In Islam, even the marriage between two Hindus done by Hindu traditions is considered sacred, meaning their children are considered legitimate in Islamic law, let alone you accuse what Prophets practiced. Shame on you.   

Edited by starlight

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Guest Khanb
1 hour ago, starlight said:

All those men have wives too to fulfill their sexual desires. The problem is lack of controlling over nafs.

So that means mutah should be haram as it is for men who cannot control their nafs. 

Isn't mutah suppose to be for young men who cannot marry yet or soldiers? 

It wasn't meant to be a tool for women to earn easy money 

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36 minutes ago, Guest Khanb said:

So that means mutah should be haram as it is for men who cannot control their nafs. 

Tha'ts the point. It isn't haram as long as one is following the rules. Allah didn't make it haram and He knows us better than we do. He knew it would be used for making money by women and fulfilling lust by men yet He allowed it so let's leave the judging part to the One who made the rules.

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2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

it may well lead to psychological problems now and in the future.

She has probably already got psychological problems. E.g. low self esteem, depression, pessimism etc.

And her work is probably causing her to hate men. She may be dealing with married men and men who are not exactly compassionate. 

 

@Diaz Does your friend have a good state of mind? Is she even on any medication or substances?

Having to constantly breakaway from men with whom she may develop feelings, may require the use of substances. 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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33 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

@Diaz Does your friend have a good state of mind? Is she even on any medication or substances?

Having to constantly breakaway from men with whom she may develop feelings, may require the use of substances. 

I don’t know brother, I will ask him once again. 

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15 minutes ago, Diaz said:

I don’t know brother, I will ask him once again. 

Sorry I misread and thought she was your friend. Your friend may not know her well enough to answer this.

Studies have shown that men and women who engage in these types of behavior tend to have mental health problems. You can easily find this information on the Internet.

I know 2-3 Shia men who are like this. I know that two of them have come close to suicide. Outwardly they talk about how much 'fun' they are having but it is actually their psychological problems which lead them to this lifestyle. And that lifestyle has caused them a lot of other problems too. E.g. fear of pregnancy, STDs and emptiness. 

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This thread reminds me of the handicap man who sued hotels for not having handicap ramps to their swimming pools.

He acted within laws that required handicap accessible facilities in public places, but the ultimate truth is that any righteous law can be abused. The man went after facilities that he never even planned to attend and was purely after the money.

Once people get a taste of money, sometimes it becomes their new god.

Edited by iCenozoic

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19 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

If she was getting $1000 per month or dealing with any kind of abuse, she would be a victim. With $10-15K, she is not a victim, she is very greedy and entitled. This thread makes me sad. I have seen sugar babies on Dr. Phil. Most of americans even find this behavior disgusting while we muslims  are trying to justify this.  I am not able to get rid of one man in my life. After 4 years of divorce, he still finds ways to haunt me and this woman gets rid of so many men so easily. She must be very powerful. 

Then the problem is that she's being greedy by charging those men who are just after temporary pleasure an amount she considers appropriate? Can't those men go to other women if they didn't like the amount she considered appropriate?

Not only she is judged in this thread for choosing a way to survive (that by itself, it's halal). Not only she lives in a society that, in the end, failed to give her the tools to earn the money in more reasonable and less humiliating ways. On top of all of that, we have to judge her for the amount of money she asks for so a random man can exploit her body? Do you realize you are defending the position of the men exploiting this reality in your former post?

What she does isn't haram. What she does points at a terrible reality we should fight against. But we shouldn't fight her, but the system. A system that is both supported by the men who chase these socially problematic desires (instead of stable mutually desired relationships) and the economical structure that leave women in such circumstancea unprotected.

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3 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Can't those men go to other women if they didn't like the amount she considered appropriate?

Her actions are in a way encouraging those other specific women to demand such a high dowry as well. It is logical to deduce that those men who can go to women for a much lower price, go to women like this because they have something else to offer and we cannot come to what that something is without further context. Perhaps that something could simply be her charging of a higher price?

 

5 minutes ago, Bakir said:

failed to give her the tools to earn the money in more reasonable and less humiliating ways

You can’t be serious? After one or two marriages she has enough money to go and start a small business, or continue her education. Keep blaming men and society my friend it always works nowadays.

 

6 minutes ago, Bakir said:

A system that is both supported by the men who chase these socially problematic desires (instead of stable mutually desired relationships) and the economical structure that leave women in such circumstancea unprotected.

Okay so now you’re judging the men? :D I don’t know what you’re looking for here in this supposed system of yours, I don’t think the best of systems can beat a profession that gains you a minimum of $5,000 every forty days or so. 

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1 minute ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

I don’t think the best of systems can beat a profession that gains you a minimum of $5,000 every forty days or so. 

I wouldn't allow my sister nor my mother to do any of this even for $100,000. Thanks to Allah, we don't have to humiliate ourselves to do so. I'm sure you would feel the same way about your women relatives. Does this example helps you to see this "my supposed system"?

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18 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

You can’t be serious? After one or two marriages she has enough money to go and start a small business, or continue her education. Keep blaming men and society my friend it always works nowadays.

I had the opportunity to meet a few prostitutes in my life. There was one that saved up some money for a business. She failes hard. She knew nothing but dancing. She barely had any support. Her life circumstances pushed her to that lifestyle, and she couldn't get out of it. We may know a few cases that do, a few success stories about "How I left prostitution and lead a successful company". This is not the norm, though. The norm is being unable to get out of it, getting scammed, and be affected by psychological problems and the use of substances to deal with it, as brother Muhammad Ali correctly pointed at.

Lastly, you mention that her high prices would encourage the sex market to charge more. Well, I honestly don't find it bad, considering sex shouldn't be something you can get by paying. It's not a service, nor something you should be able to buy in a decent society. Can we agree at least to that? If men want sex, then they better get married with women who also want to marry, with genuine consent and not because of need. There are a lot of unmarried (I dislike the word divorced, as if your past had to define your identity) women who want to rebuild their lives, and would probably charge nothing to marry. Yet they are never enough, because those men are after young girls, with specific very demanding physical features, etc.

We are in an Islamic forum. Let's at least pretend we have some decency and humanity.

Edited by Bakir

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14 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I wouldn't allow my sister nor my mother to do any of this even for $100,000. Thanks to Allah, we don't have to humiliate ourselves to do so. I'm sure you would feel the same way about your women relatives. Does this example helps you to see this "my supposed system"?

Well I don’t think you have the authority over your mother or sister in the case that she wanted to do so or not. So your system is basically eradicating mutah? 

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Just now, Mohammad313Ali said:

Well I don’t think you have the authority over your mother or sister in the case that she wanted to do so or not. So your system is basically eradicating mutah? 

I'm saying we should do our best to identify the causes why mutah is exploited (as can be seen in the BBC documentary or the OP's post), and build social strategies to fight against it.

I'm not against mutah by itself. Rather the contrary, I think it can be very useful. But it very much depends on the context it takes place.

Consent must be genuine, not out of need. Women should marry (in mutah) for similar reasons, to enjoy, not to make money.

Mutah being used to make money points at a social problem. And blaming the woman that does it is very short sighted (it's like blaming prostitutes for having sex for money).

I mentioned abolitionist feminism because it thinks of strategies to overcome prostitution, as it is understood as something sexists that, in the short term, we will have to tolerate (because those women don't have a safe and efficient exit path).

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13 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I had the opportunity to meet a few prostitutes in my life. There was one that saved up some money for a business. She failes hard. She knew nothing but dancing. She barely had any support. Her life circumstances pushed her to that lifestyle, and she couldn't get out of it. We may know a few cases that do, a few success stories about "How I left prostitution and lead a successful company". This is not the norm, though. The norm is being unable to get out of it, and be affected by psychological problems and the use of substances to deal with it, as brother Muhammad Ali correctly pointed at.

Yes, but we’re discussing matters that pertain to our Muslim sisters not a prostitute who has been exploited by capitalism and failed by socialism. 

If the sister is going through the same issues that the prostitute in your scenario is going to then she could settle down easily. How can I be so sure? Well, if she can find someone who is willing to pay that much for a couple months of enjoyment I am sure that she can also find a man who will marry her and be financially responsible for her.

there are many avenues out for our Muslim sisters and therefore your offhanded scenarios don’t really link well to this specific scenario.

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5 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

there are many avenues out for our Muslim sisters

You haven't met many divorced women willing to marry again, have you?

By the way, in the documentary that has been mentioned in the OP this is also addressed. Men don't want a permanent commitment, they want to have convenient short term marriages (1h-1 week). Let's stop being naive, there is a problem. Black point period. It's not that difficult to recognize that things aren't as great as we would like. It's not difficult to realize the world sucks.

Edited by Bakir

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On 6/23/2020 at 2:53 PM, Diaz said:

Oh, I forgot to say that she is polygamy. That’s the second reason why she is doing it. First reason is because she want money, but in halal way. 

Polygamy? You mean that she is marrying mutah as a second, third or fourth wife of a rich man? 

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15 hours ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

because even halal things can be abused

I don't think this is quite correct. When it is being abused then it is no longer halaal. Abuse implies that certain other laws are being broken. 

E.g. saying salaam to someone is mustahab, but saying salaam to someone so much that it annoys them isn't.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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3 hours ago, Bakir said:

You haven't met many divorced women willing to marry again, have you?

I have and I know one who constantly receives individuals asking for her hand.

3 hours ago, Bakir said:

I'm saying we should do our best to identify the causes why mutah is exploited (as can be seen in the BBC documentary or the OP's post), and build social strategies to fight against it.

This issue isn’t relevant to the particular instance of the girl the OP was referring to. You took a whole issue in particular and framed it to a general matter.

it is not difficult to understand that men and women abuse matters which are halal to an extent it becomes haram.

Yes, we have issues when it comes to those in the BBC documentary turning mutah into a business, just like the girl who is obviously possessing many intrinsic problems within herself to be charging such high dowries and to be able to jump from one spouse to another.

There are undoubtedly spiritual and physical problems that will arise from such matters, focusing on materialism, as well as using this form of marriage not as a means to relive oneself in order to focus on the bigger picture, but instead cause this to be the bigger picture. 

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People use the usual nikah as a business too. The father spots a wealthy middle aged man, offers young daughter, she takes a lot of jewelry, dowry, then it ends and they disappears. Or routinely we hear a woman, often a model or something, will marry a rich marry for the umpteenth time, usually a very old man. Just as there were royal marriages to make alliances or join interests there are now marriages for political or influential family influence. People seek marriage into wealthy and powerful families and become rich and powerful "overnight".

Whats so disturbing? Same thing.

 

Edited by The Green Knight

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On 6/25/2020 at 10:52 PM, The Green Knight said:

People use the usual nikah as a business too. The father spots a wealthy middle aged man, offers young daughter, she takes a lot of jewelry, dowry, then it ends and they disappears. Or routinely we hear a woman, often a model or something, will marry a rich marry for the umpteenth time, usually a very old man. Just as there were royal marriages to make alliances or join interests there are now marriages for political or influential family influence. People seek marriage into wealthy and powerful families and become rich and powerful "overnight".

Whats so disturbing? Same thing.

This reminds me of a marriage which I believe in arabic is called فصلية predmoniately seen between two disputing tribes, where they marry a girl and boy from each tribe by means of reconciliation, however, according to Sayed Sistani if the girl is not willing to partake in the marriage it is Haram.

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5 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Well I don’t think you have the authority over your mother or sister in the case that she wanted to do so or not. So your system is basically eradicating mutah? 

Women who have adequate financial and social support at home will usually not want to sell themselves for sex. Whatever psychological/self esteem problems the girl is suffering from stemmed from her home enviornment. 

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45 minutes ago, starlight said:

Women who have adequate financial and social support at home will usually not want to sell themselves for sex. Whatever psychological/self esteem problems the girl is suffering from stemmed from her home enviornment. 

I understand, but if it’s merely financial problems she is facing, again a full-term marriage with a pious brother would undoubtedly aid in alleviating her plight.

Again, for someone who men will pay thousands of dollars to sleep with for a month or so, it shouldn’t be hard to find a permanent spouse. The avenues for marriage Alhamdulilah are not as difficult as some may be indicating.

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13 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

a full-term marriage with a pious brother would undoubtedly aid in alleviating her plight.

I agree. This is what I suggested in my first post in the thread. She clearly has underlying emotional issues otherwise it's not normal for a woman to be in a close relationship with a man and not develop any feelings. 

God knows what transpires her to do what she is doing, lack of trust? greed? abuse in the past that has left her thinking she isn't good enough to be anyone's permanent wife? Allah knows best. 

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6 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I don't think this is quite correct. When it is being abused then it is no longer halaal. Abuse implies that certain other laws are being broken. 

E.g. saying salaam to someone is mustahab, but saying salaam to someone so much that it annoys them isn't.

I dont agree brother.

I think even halal things can be abused by having an immoral niyaah. For example:

A man could marry a young virgin girl who he finds attractive, be intimate with her, and then divorce her the next day. All of this would be halal for him to do.

However, his niyyah was just to be intimate with her and not to build a life with her, now she will face difficulties getting remarried and he goes on with his life doing the same over and over again. 

Thuss he has abused something halal with his immoral niyyah and he will be judged accordingly.

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