Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Diaz

Mutah as a business for women

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

56 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Even oral sex by a little child is allowed. Isn't that right @Ayuoobi

I haven't looked into what the fuqahaa' have said on this.

1 hour ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I'm sorry to say this by thiging a baby or infant is morally wrong and even your fitrah will tell you it's wrong.

Something's being disgusting does not mean it's morally wrong or that it causes long term harm. For example, I can go into the bathroom and smear feces all over my face and body, then proceed to take a shower. This is utterly disgusting, it does not mean harm has been inflicted or that there needs to be a legal prohibition on me doing so, or even that I've sinned against Allah. Consider another thing: it is perfectly permissible and legal for you to garggle your own urine. This, again, is utterly disgusting. I can give a million examples of things that are disgusting, but which cause no harm and are not haraam in and of themselves.

1 hour ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Try it and you'll see what I mean.

I'd rather not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

What's worse are the men actually in contact with her.

The worst part is the amount of money they are spending on her. Men make their wives work so hard in exchange for only food and shelter. So many men have called me a burden and they are spending so much money on one woman. They could support so many orphans and women with this much money. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Diaz said:

Salamu Alaykum, before I start I apologize if any sister in here who are disturbed by this topic. Today I was talking with my friend, normally we talk about anything that comes to our mind. Suddenly I remember the BBC documentary (about the men who sell girl for mutah marriage), I talked about it with my friend, then suddenly he brought this up. He said he knows a girl who marry a rich Shi’a men for a high amount of dowry. Her dowry start from $5k up to $10k-$15k per month. That excluding the gift she gets from them like gold, jewelry, shopping cards, car etc. Is that permissible in Islamic law? Since Mutah to her is like a business. According to my friend, what she does is halal because she does wait for her iddah and she never let men touch her before temporary marriage. But I didn’t find it in any Maraji if it’s halal or no. I’m just curious, again sorry if anyone is disturbed from this topic specially sisters in here. 

You could do the same thing with regular nikah (marriage). What she's doing is halal, however it's nothing particular to mut'ah marriage specifically. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Please make tauba for such a blatant insult toward her. Since Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made mutah halal for the few people who need it, it is wrong for people who don't need mutah to make such statements. 

It's halal even if you don't need it but simply want it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Please make tauba for such a blatant insult toward her. Since Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made mutah halal for the few people who need it, it is wrong for people who don't need mutah to make such statements. 

I apologize if someone took offense.

Mutah is halal yes.

But I don't think that mutah is to be used in such way as to sleep around for money. From what I have read, it's sounds like she is doing it for money.

21 hours ago, Diaz said:

Like, she doesn’t want to be with one man forever. Instead, she want to be with a man for 1-2 months and after few months she will be with another man.

This is very disgusting.

Is there any father, mother, brother or sister, that would want their daughter or sister to be like that?

This just sounds like someone using religion as excuse for their behaviour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

@starlight@AmirioTheMuzzy@Mahdavist@Diaz

Was I wrong in what I said?

Of course. Calling someone a prostitute carries very heavy implications in Islam. You might not be comfortable with a practice but to attribute haram to something that is halal , especially when you are attributing zina, is a serious sin in itself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Of course. Calling someone a prostitute carries very heavy implications in Islam. You might not be comfortable with a practice but to attribute haram to something that is halal , especially when you are attributing zina, is a serious sin in itself. 

Prostitution doesn't have to mean zina. Whether prostitution is halal or not I don't know.

All I know is that it's defined as:

to offer for sexual intercourse in exchange for pay

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prostitute

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Prostitution doesn't have to mean zina. Whether prostitution is halal or not I don't know.

All I know is that it's defined as:

to offer for sexual intercourse in exchange for pay

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prostitute

Well I think you need to read some Wittgenstein regarding the nature of everyday definition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Of course. Calling someone a prostitute carries very heavy implications in Islam. You might not be comfortable with a practice but to attribute haram to something that is halal , especially when you are attributing zina, is a serious sin in itself. 

I want to add that I never said anything about zina. So I don't see the part where I attributed something haram to something that is halal. Just because prostitution is something that is looked bad upon doesn't mean it's haram. And whether it's haram or halal I don't know. However i just posted the definition of it. Is there anything wrong with that definition?

11 hours ago, starlight said:

 Prostitution???

 

21 hours ago, Diaz said:

First reason is because she want money, but in halal way. 

23 hours ago, Diaz said:

a girl who marry a rich Shi’a men for a high amount of dowry. Her dowry start from $5k up to $10k-$15k per month. That excluding the gift she gets from them like gold, jewelry, shopping cards, car etc. Is that permissible in Islamic law? Since Mutah to her is like a business

21 hours ago, Diaz said:

she doesn’t want to be with one man forever. Instead, she want to be with a man for 1-2 months and after few months she will be with another man. 

That's her job/business. To sell sex for cash, because that's what the men pay her for correct?

To sell sex for cash, what is it? ask any man or woman in the east or west, a woman who regularly sells sex for cash what is she doing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

That's her job/business. To sell sex for cash, because that's what the men pay her for correct?

To sell sex for cash, what is it? ask any man or woman in the east or west, a woman who regularly sells sex for cash what is she doing?

Prostitution. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Astaghfir’Allah, 

Too much judgement in this thread. Allah is the judge of all our affairs. People marry for various reasons such as money, beauty, etc but we know marrying for the pleasure of Allah is the best reason. The sister has a right to practice mut’ah as long as she is abiding by the rules that go along with pleasure contract marriage. 

If she was a pure Harlot prostitute she wouldn’t practice the laws of marriage at all and wouldn’t wait until her iddah duration was over. Real Harlot prostitutes are not confound to the laws of Islam because for them it’s a type of power and lust gained from it.  Women are power driven just like men and like to feel in control. Sex and money gained from it is a way to feel in control since women are dominated by men in terrible ways at times. It’s a very different test for Women. May Allah make easy on the believing women. 

We don’t know what type of emotional or physical situation she may have that may prevent her from permanently being married. We don’t know her situation. All believers have a situation or a story in which only Allah knows. We do know that she has fear of Allah enough not to fornicate or commit zina, May Allah reward her for obeying the laws actually and some day grant her a permanent husband. 

All people are different so how they practice Islam will differ person to person according to their situation that is willed by Allah. Some people eat simple meals and some people eat gourmet extravagant meals prepared by the best chefs. If both meals are made from halal ingredients their shouldn’t be any judgement. 

Also there is a Hadith about a prostitute who got Jannah for giving drink to a thirsty stray dog. Allah knows the hearts and so only he is the judge. Let the sister be and let Allah guide her. Allah is constantly teaching his believers in ways that we know not since Allah is the all knowing. 

Edited by Hameedeh
Large empty space removed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys are taking western definitions of prostitution and applying it to Islam. In Islam, a prostitute is a woman who commits zina for money. Not marriage for money. 

15 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

How can something be bad akhlaq and not even be considered makhrooh?

Even if I conceded your point (which I am sympathetic to, actually, because I do think that there is something inherently wrong with the distinction between fiqh and akhlaq), this doesn't get us to saying something is haraam. You cannot get around the fact that evidence is required to make universal declarations about the Will of the Lord of the Universe. Your or my personal anecdotal evidence, your or my feelings and the social biases of one society =/= the Will of Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Please make tauba for such a blatant insult toward her. Since Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made mutah halal for the few people who need it, it is wrong for people who don't need mutah to make such statements. 

I don't understand what insult it is even made for a person that name or personality have never mentioned in public and that the person could be just an imagination of mind. The person is just talking about the scenario that if such a thing is happening, could it be in our modern term defined as an intention that falls to as prostitution, which is an engaging in sexual activity with someone for payment, and to make it halal, make it as an marriage thing.

I'm more concerned on narrations that say how hateful it is to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that woman or mans are becoming as tasters, that itself tells how hateful and unmoral the whole act of constant divorce and constant marrying for reason of sexual and money with constant different partners and yet people are still saying it is fine.

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You guys are taking western definitions of prostitution and applying it to Islam. In Islam, a prostitute is a woman who commits zina for money. Not marriage for money. 

Yes it is not prostitution, because it is not zina. But the nature of a woman doing mut'ah for business by offering herself to different people to get payment is almost close to western definition of prostitute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

I'm more concerned on narrations that say how hateful it is to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that woman or mans are becoming as tasters, that itself tells how hateful and unmoral the whole act of constant divorce and constant marrying for reason of sexual and money with constant different partners and yet people are still saying it is fine.

From what I know Shaykh Kulayni used to generally order the ahadith in a book from most authentic to less authentic. Consider that this hadith is the very first one in the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

What she does is against human's honor and  no doubt it is immoral. Ask yourself "will a chaste woman engage in such things?".

This prompted me do check the Sunnah.

"temporay marriage" was forbidden according to Malik -28.18.41; Abudawud Bk11 #2068; Muslim has several conradicting hadiths and also attributes 'fobidden' to Umar; Bukhari has one hadith saying it forbidden.

Muslim mentions that "temporary marriage" was for a handful of flour and Abudawu Bk11 #2105 says the payment/doury was a handful of grain.

l Iike Shadow's comment. Thanks gurl . . . errr...Muslima.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes it is not prostitution, because it is not zina. But the nature of a woman doing mut'ah for business by offering herself to different people to get payment is almost close to western definition of prostitute.

l remember from a biography of Ayatollah Khomenei l read that when he was in seminary, he was disgusted with the majority of the seminarians because they had mutah wives for only the time they were in school.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/24/2020 at 3:30 AM, Muhammed Ali said:

The separation of akhlaq and fiqh.

Thanks for saying it. There are many ideas mixed in this thread, but this is by far the greatest problem I see, and I totally understand the limbo in which many of us feel to belong when topics like this are addressed in such way (the limbo between atheists and, as al Maarri used to say, "ignorant people with religion"). And I think it's more related to ignorance than to lack of akhlaq (though these are related). Because in the end, there is a tendency towards separating religion from knowledge (especially fields of knowledge that lean towards qualitative research: sociology, psychology, etc.).

And if I'm not wrong, we are talking here about Nawal al Maghafi documentary on Iraq's secret sex trade (available in Amazon Video). The circumstances described in the original post may have some relation with the reality behind the documentary. Nonetheless, the difference may be that there is no one making profit from finding her customers (I hope so, at least).

However, what is the problem here? Can we not see it? We may all agree that within the Islamic societies, serial monogamy done by women isn't the most desirable thing. If that's her choice and she indeed enjoys it genuinely, it's ok. But it would be ridiculously naive to think so, especially when considering the importance of money in what she does. She has no means of making a living, and that is the problem. Women lack protection, independence and proper opportunities. That is something needed to be able to choose who to marry.

There is a lot of literature in abolitionist feminism which I find it shows an hollistic analysis of the problem of prostitution (or similar practices). I find it necessary to share the quote of an abolitionist feminist that wrote on the topic extensively, Kathleen Barry:

Consent is not a good divining rod as to the existence of oppression, and consent to violation is a fact of oppression. Oppression cannot effectively be gauged according to the degree of “consent,” since even in slavery there was some consent, if consent is defined as inability to see any alternative.

We can also believe that there is nothing wrong with it because it is halal according to fiqh. Yet this is another case of evident oppression, and the little faith that remains in me because of all the ignorance I face within our communities still reiterates that Islam is AGAINST oppression, fights it actively, fiercely, and without doubts.

Your friend isn't doing anything bad, she's just a victim of her own circumstances. If any, it is our society and governments what are doing something absolutely cruel and unjust.

It is also an ultimate form of oppression that this thread is about if she's doing something right or wrong, when her choices are narrow.

It is also an ultimate form of oppression not to bring visibility to all those women who see themselves forced into mutah for economical reasons, hiding this problem behind the fact it is halal and they need it. This is the same thing the sheykhs in the documentary say, as if they were helping young women by prostituting them to old rich men.

It is also an ultimate form of oppression to normalize that women's role is to be completely vulnerable and dependant to men, to the tipping point of thinking that is Islamic, when the very prophet of Islam married a rich businesswoman. Let's not confuse the oppressions of capitalism and male chauvinism with Islam and what is desirable.

 

As a side offtopic note, I sadly read some of the posts here. It is seriously disturbing that we have to see what someone has to say about the morality of practicing oral sex with a kid. Don't we have reason to separate good from bad? If we can't even understand something THIS simple... Now I ask myself what I am doing here... Good night.

Edited by Bakir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Bakir said:

 

Your friend isn't doing anything bad, she's just a victim of her own circumstances. If any, it is our society and governments what are doing something absolutely cruel and unjust.

It is also an ultimate form of oppression that this thread is about if she's doing something right or wrong, when her choices are narrow.

 

 

If she was getting $1000 per month or dealing with any kind of abuse, she would be a victim. With $10-15K, she is not a victim, she is very greedy and entitled. This thread makes me sad. I have seen sugar babies on Dr. Phil. Most of americans even find this behavior disgusting while we muslims  are trying to justify this.  I am not able to get rid of one man in my life. After 4 years of divorce, he still finds ways to haunt me and this woman gets rid of so many men so easily. She must be very powerful. 

Edited by rkazmi33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technically the action of the girl in this scenario is Halal, however, it will undoubtedly lead to Haram. I believe it is imperative to establish that the matter is not so black and white, “oh it is halal, therefore completely justified”, there are ample instances in which Halal acts could open doors to Haram.

For example: doing Mutah with a girl who engages in regular drinking and also goes to discos and other Haram gatherings, although technically the marriage is Halal, a person who you are spiritually fusing yourself with through the act of copulation will undoubtedly drag you into these matters if an individual lacks true religious tenacity.

Now a person with such tenacity would not even need to resort to Mutah with a drunkard girl, because they have control over their carnal desires and can at least wait for a more suitable spouse for the temporary marriage, henceforth it is logically sound to deduce that engaging in such a Halal act will have a high risk in resulting in Haram.

In the relevant case of the girl in this scenario she must be admonished. Although her act is technically Halal, she has not done so out of need or perhaps even seeking to satiate herself through pleasure, for in that case one husband would have sufficed, but instead she has done so out of greed for money and love for materialism. How can I have the audacity to reach such a conclusion? Who would constantly marry a handful of men annually for a sum that is no less then $5,000 

We need to be pragmatic.

@Ayuoobi I have not looked into these jurisprudential matters in depth, but I agree with what brother @Muhammed Ali is saying. 

It is important to note that these child fatwas, are theoretical and essentially come from a complete realm of theory, as we all know fiqh also occupies the realm of theory, the book in which lists the ruling of Ayatollah Khomeini is one which was specific not to the general public, but those specialized scholars.

A very important point to be considerate of that Ayatollah Khomeini highlights in the book which carries that ruling is that the wife needs to be cognizant of the reality of those sexual acts and after having such understanding, must consent to the sexual acts which the husband wishes to engage. Penetrative or otherwise.

That is why we have Ayatollah Khamenei reinforcing the limitations proposed by Ayatollah Khomeini, by explicitly stating that no sexual act can be performed with a wife that lacks the mental maturity to adequately comprehend needs in response to what is proposed by her husband. 

Yes, there are certain scholars who have reached other peculiar conclusions, but in the end the jurisprudent at times operates from the realm of theory and in pragmatic cases as this we need to also provide pragmatic answers from realistic scenarios not theoretical ones, after all the scholar gives you what could be the law of Allah and it would be foolish to say that their conclusions are all infallible even if they have respectively dedicated a lifetime of research.

In the words of Socrates, “Employ your time in improving yourself by other men’s writings so that you shall come easily by what others have labored hard for.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes it is not prostitution, because it is not zina. But the nature of a woman doing mut'ah for business by offering herself to different people to get payment is almost close to western definition of prostitute.

Marrying a minor is the western definition of pedophilia. This is how some non muslims refer to our prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).  Since when did western definitions become relevant? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Marrying a minor is the western definition of pedophilia.

What's pedophilia? If a man 30 year old marries a 5 year old. Is that not pedophilia?

The age of aisha during marriage is still not clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

What's pedophilia? If a man 30 year old marries a 5 year old. Is that not pedophilia?

The age of aisha during marriage is still not clear.

There are examples beyond A'isha. How old was Fatimah Zahrah (عليه السلام) when she got married? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As salaamun aleikum,

Ive heard and read that she was 12 and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was 25,  but 12 is a far cry from 5.

By 12 a person can very easily be biologically an adult per islamic criteria, but a 5 year old can not, at least not in any credible case that im aware of, but im open to correction.

W/s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum,

Ive heard and read that she was 12 and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was 25,  but 12 is a far cry from 5.

By 12 a person can very easily be biologically an adult per islamic criteria, but a 5 year old can not, at least not in any credible case that im aware of, but im open to correction.

W/s

Walaikum as salam

To the 21st western critic it doesn't matter much, because both cases would be considered immoral.

This is the point I wanted to make (the intention was not to get into a debate regarding the age of marriage)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Marrying a minor is the western definition of pedophilia. This is how some non muslims refer to our prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).  Since when did western definitions become relevant? 

They don't but time could be very relevant and the how it effects people. This day Marrying minor is not same that in old time where people develop faster. As for prostitution, no time have it done any favor for it, it characteristics is very disgusting, a fitrah could never accept it. 

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...