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In the Name of God بسم الله

Hijab - no rude answers

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hussain_ said:

I would say the fact that they couldn't even last a century is enough to refute that claim.

Lasting a century has nothing to do with what I said, you said that the west is technogically advanced, you mentionned the moon, etc and I replied by saying that horrible nations have also advanced, lets not forget the roman empire for example which was a barbaric expansionist empire lasted millenia and invented a HUGE amount of stuff, the chinese empires also have invented insane amounts of things and they lasted millenia.

These advancements have litterally been in society and philosophy, etc so not only technological.

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The west has done something much more profound than just technological advancements. In social structure, democracy, and government they've made advances.

The thing is, you mention how they run their countries, which defently have their problems, the presidents are litteral jokes and western society is not doing well, but the way they treat other nations is also a thing that should not be ignored, their foreign policy is litterally pure evil and as a survivor of the 2006 war in lebanon i can testify to this, I dont care how well they treat their people, they are litterally acting like roman empire where their people are treated not well but good enough and they treat other countries that disagree with them like garbage, ie "these people are oppressed lets free them" and then their countries end up worse then before and there is no excusing of this the west foreign policy has been consistantly horrible over the centuries, they basically focused on them selves and could not care less about the others, this by it self is inherently an evil system, I haven't even touched upon if the way western societies trear their own people is goos or bad.

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One of the (if not the) fundamental ideas that the West established is that the individual is sovereign. And based off of that core value, it made progress in all sorts of different fields subsequently. This idea doesn't exist in the Islamic culture, and it's one of the primary things that's holding it back from progressing.

Pretty much sure muslims progressed a lot of when they did not even beleive in individualism, the mentality they had was that they will advance scientifically because Allah(stw) ordered us to grow physically and spiritually, we should explore this world and do it for the sake of Allah(stw), this is a way better motivation then doing it for my own curiosity, or for "humman progression" which is not as strong a basis as doing it for Allah(stw) sake collectively.

Now as for the modern day, ironically the huge majority of muslim countries are as muslim as a taquila, they litterally implement western ideals and they are still failling even without islamic culture, a lot of these "muslim countries" and their populations barely even care about islam, have you even been to these so called muslim countries?? I can tell you right now all they beleive in is western ideals, the muslim culture as you mention is barely present and these countries are the most individualistic they have been in their history and they still are stagnant, you dont seem to get the situatiom there, it is defently not as simple as you make it out to be.

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I know that the word it used means a head covering, I'm not debating the meaning of the word. The difference in opinion comes from the interpretation and essentially how it's read. The verse is worded in a strange sort of way, at least from what I can tell by the English translation. Maybe if I learn and become fluent in Arabic, I'll be able to read the original text and figure out what exactly the Qur'an means, but I don't have the necessary faculties available to me right now so the best I can do is go off of multiple English translations.

Making claims like this when you dont even understand the arabic is not a good idea.

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My claim is that Hadith aren't infallible; and they're not meant to be taken as guidance like the Qur'an is. Qur'an is timeless. Hadith are not.

When it is clear that the hadith is from an infallible source, will you also beleive it is not timeless?

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To be clear, we should follow the rules that are set in stone in the Qur'an and not to transgress against the Word of God. My point is that everyone interprets the Word of God differently, and as a result individuals may "follow" the Qur'an slightly differently than each other, because of the differences in interpretation. For example, it's hard to interpret the ban on eating pig differently, so most people don't eat pig. But with more vague verses, people may interpret differently and as a result act it out differently.

I never disputed that vague verses are interpreted diffirently by people especially diffirent sects, what you seem to be doing is using this as a basis to justify your individualistic beleifs.

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The West is not without its problems; but at the fundemental levels, it's values are straight.

Their values also suffer from huge problems.Especially when western people think western values are universal when infact a huge amount of people will beg to differ, if just did things for the sake of Allah(stw) , we would do fine and we defently dont need western values for that.

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It's the betrayal of those core values that some people may fall into vices. One of the "Islamic" values the West has embodied in my opinion is the seperation of Church and State, where it does not legislate religion and it's interpreted moral values. This is in line with "there is no compulsion in religion" and verses 88:21 and 88:22 from the Qur'an. No man has the authority to legislate religion for another man. Some "Islamic" countries can't come to terms with that, while the West has.

 

Ok got it so the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was wrong(god forbid) to set up a muslim calipha a litterall muslim state, you fail to realise that non muslims at many times lived in islamic states before and a lot of instances where they felt well and not forced and even liked it because the islamic state made sure they lived confortably and any denying that this happened in history is just delusional, does not mean that no oppression happened but you make it seem as if islamic history is extreemly bloody and violent and it was all doom and gloom.

An islamic state is only applicable when the HUGE majority is muslim, and as every country has laws and rules when non muslims visit muslim countries they should have the decency to respect these laws and they can do what they want in private.

In my opinion people should be free to have religious states, secularism limmits religious freedom, it stagnates it which is never a good thing, and the moral compass of the west is a testament to this, morility is degrading faster then ever in the west.

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I disagree. We didn't pillage and destroy "everyone" and it's certainly not the reason the West has exceeded, precisely the opposite. And if you want to talk about pillaging and creating a politically stable environment, I'd like you to read up on some Islamic history.

I never claimed that islamic history has no violence, my claim is that you guys conquered everything and this is how you became stable, let me give you a history lesson:

Europeans civilisations were killing eachother more then other civilisations, because of that, their weapons develloped extreemly quickly, they invested a lot in guns and artillery, this enabled them to conquer a huge amount of foreign terretory, when they did that, they started slavery, the slaughter of natives at a scale which has never even been seen by other civilisations, when they did that they became rich and I mean filthy rich, when they became very rich, their societies became more secure, more stable, knowlege got distrubited more, that kept happening while other civilisations declined because the west took more land and they could not compete with the west, yes the other civilisations did bad too but this is irrelevant to the grand scale of things where europeans with their wealth and terretory were in a strong position to basically force their ideals into the entire globe, which is a big reason why the majority of countries have western systems, because the west dominated the world.

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Well the westerners made the West a much better place to be than the Africans did with Africa. "Civilizing" other people is against my values, as you can see I am against enforcing your own values on other people. And let's not forget that Africans were enslaving each other and that the Europeans simply bought black people from black people.

You forgot the time when europe litterally colonised all of africa and what you said is simply wrong, yes they bought africans from other africans but they also kidnapped africans when they took over their lands.

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Still wrong of course, but it's not like they went and kidnapped a bunch of people minding their own business, people seem to forget that. And let's also remember that the reason the West doesn't have slavery anymore is because it went against that core value of individual sovereignty and as a result didn't last.

Not if black people are considered inferior, which was the case, black people were inferior to them, thus individual sovereignty did not apply to them.

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I am against any and all forms of racism because it is a violation of the value of individual sovereignty, where instead of seeing an individual as an individual, you see them as part of a group. Racism is simply a form of collectivism, and I am against collectivism.

I lived in a collective village in lebanon and when foreigners came we treated them with respect as in islam we are all collectively part of gods creation wether black, white, yellow, etc we will all return to Allah(stw) when we die.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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I think men ought to stay out of Hijab topics. In general I think men are the ones that screwed the meaning of Hijab.

Why ? The issue of hijab affects men as much as it does women.  In a society where the physical hijab (the headscarf and modest clothing) and social hijab (modesty) is not practiced and actually

Who told you practising islam would be rainbows in the sky and small blue birds and deers following the person everywhere.  You want to talk about everyday struggles? Waking up for fajr in t

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On 7/1/2020 at 3:07 PM, Abu Hadi said:

If you know that hijab is wajib, and this knowledge is based on your study of Fiqh, then you have enough knowledge to do Amr bil Maroof... in this instance.

We are responsible for the knowledge that we have, not the knowledge we don't have. If you don't know if something is haram / wajib, then you don't have the responsibility in this case. But if you know, then you have the responsibility (and again this knowledge is based on a solid foundation of your knowledge of Fiqh, and not just speculation or supposition). You don't need to be a Fuqaha (one who is generally considered by the society as knowledeable in fiqh) to know the basic things. That is why I brought up those two cases of alcohol and nafakha, because almost all muslims know that drinking alcohol is haram and that the man is responsible to give his wife the nafakha (basic support) if he is able. Again, when you are talking about 'makes no influence' this is the details (x, y, and z). I am simply asking if you have the duty to do Amr bil Maroof... in whatever way is appropriate give the details of the particular case. That was the question. 

I still cant comprehend your problem with having women lecture other women about an issue that has to do with women.

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@Hussain_ 

Now before you make a response, I just remebered this forum is about hijab, we are both deviating from the subject, if you want to talk about hadiths being not timeless or individualism is in line with islam, i would really suggest making forum with that subject.

Now as for your claim about hijab, as I said, all you are doing at this point is conjecture, because you just addmitted your self that you did not read the arabic and you only took it from the english translations and this is why I said that it is never a good idea to draw conclusions from an english translation.

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Salam,

guest guest, there is nothing wrong with posing your question regarding hijab. But ask questions to learn. 

You can argue the arabic as much as you like but where in the Quran does it mention to pray 5 times a day? Shall we delete that from hadith and pray 3 times and pray the night prayer? Think about it. 

if you consider yourself a muslim then you will believe in the fundamentals - tawheed - the oneness of God, adl - justice of God, Prophethood, Divinely appointed Leadership, Day of Judgement. 
 

i would suggest you return to the fundamentals. 
 

God’s laws are perfect, they are not dependent on what we the created think about it. Praying 5 times a day is a trial - shall we stop trying? Fasting is a trial - shall we stop or only fast for as many hours suits us? Relationships with others is a trial - shall we ignore our moral/ethical/financial obligations? Hijab is also a trial does that mean we take it off? Eating halal food is a trial - does that mean we eat whatever suits us? Earning halal income is a trial - does that mean we just do with whatever means necessary to gain wealth?
 

Why is it when we face a trial, our Islamic values is the first to go? Why?

Because we think we know better than God.

Its the ego disguised in this ‘I’m a victim’ trail of thoughts thats the problem. 

Think about it. And think about your relationship with God. That’s all it is. You need to work on your belief system starting with the most fundamental - believing in the Oneness of God. 

No lady wears hijab because of men - we wear it because God gave us the strength to be the visible ambassadors of Islam. If you feel you don’t have the strength then ask God to give you the strength. Talk to Him and tell Him how difficult you are finding it and to help you build the courage to wear it. 

if you don’t want to wear hijab that’s your decision to make - ‘there is no compulsion in religion’(Q2:256) and if you think you have a different interpretation and want to adhere to that then thats also fine - ‘to you your religion and to me mine’ (Q109:6)

you have choices. But remember none of us are perfect and we are all on a journey of becoming better Muslims. We have all gone through, going through, and will go through trials because that’s what this earth is - a trial. whether you believe in a religion or not, whether you have faith or not, everything created has a lifespan and within its lifespan it has many trials. You can not escape trials whether you wear hijab or don’t. 

Peace. 

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16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

you said that the west is technogically advanced, you mentionned the moon, etc and I replied by saying that horrible nations have also advanced

By "progress" or "advanced" I don't mean just technologically. That's only a part of it, or rather a reflection of the real progress

16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

their foreign policy is litterally pure evil and as a survivor of the 2006 war in lebanon i can testify to this

I agree. I hate the western foreign policy as it goes against the fundamental values it was based upon. When I say the "West", I don't mean politically, but philosophically and the core values the original political system was based on, not the twisted policies we have today.

16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

I can tell you right now all they beleive in is western ideals

They believe in what they assume are western ideals, when in reality they're not. They don't need to look to America to see what western ideals are. The Qur'an is full of them. There's a reason why Islam is a "western religion" because the fundamental values of the West is based off the systems of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. There is no West without Islam.

16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

When it is clear that the hadith is from an infallible source, will you also beleive it is not timeless?

Infallible source does not equal timeless. Hadith are conditional to the time and situation in which they were given in. The Qur'an was meant to be timeless, and the Imams were there to explain the Qur'an to the people of that specific time period and society in which they were living in. Therefore, using hadith is outdated by default. And our hadith are not coming from an infallible source. I'm not physically hearing the Prophet or Imam say these words. I'm trusting certain individuals when they say the words they claim came from the Imam. No matter how trustworthy the narrators are, they're not infallible, therefore you can't make the claim that the chain of Hadith is infallible.

16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

I never disputed that vague verses are interpreted diffirently by people especially diffirent sects, what you seem to be doing is using this as a basis to justify your individualistic beleifs.

The Qur'an is vague > people interpret it differently > respect an individuals interpretation for that is exactly what you do as well > individual sovereinty

17 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Ok got it so the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was wrong(god forbid) to set up a muslim calipha a litterall muslim state, you fail to realise that non muslims at many times lived in islamic states before and a lot of instances where they felt well and not forced and even liked it because the islamic state made sure they lived confortably and any denying that this happened in history is just delusional, does not mean that no oppression happened but you make it seem as if islamic history is extreemly bloody and violent and it was all doom and gloom.

History is tricky. We don't know the full contexts, so we fill them in. We have to be careful on how we interpret history. The Prophet did what he had to do according to his time, and whatever he did was right. But that doesn't mean today we should do what he did 1400 years ago, because times are different and if the Prophet was alive today, he would go about it differently.

17 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

An islamic state is only applicable when the HUGE majority is muslim, and as every country has laws and rules when non muslims visit muslim countries they should have the decency to respect these laws and they can do what they want in private.

This is getting into politics which is an entirely separate discussion that I don't wish to have at this time

17 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Europeans civilisations were killing eachother more then other civilisations, because of that, their weapons develloped extreemly quickly, they invested a lot in guns and artillery, this enabled them to conquer a huge amount of foreign terretory, when they did that, they started slavery, the slaughter of natives at a scale which has never even been seen by other civilisations, when they did that they became rich and I mean filthy rich, when they became very rich, their societies became more secure, more stable, knowlege got distrubited more, that kept happening while other civilisations declined because the west took more land and they could not compete with the west, yes the other civilisations did bad too but this is irrelevant to the grand scale of things where europeans with their wealth and terretory were in a strong position to basically force their ideals into the entire globe, which is a big reason why the majority of countries have western systems, because the west dominated the world.

My guy that is not at all how it went down. That's a sorry excuse of a history lesson. Complete misreading of history.

17 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

You forgot the time when europe litterally colonised all of africa and what you said is simply wrong, yes they bought africans from other africans but they also kidnapped africans when they took over their lands.

Again, Western people made mistakes and did unspeakable things against the core values of the West, which built the western civilization. Colonizing, forcing people, etc is against the core western value of individual sovereignty

17 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Not if black people are considered inferior, which was the case, black people were inferior to them, thus individual sovereignty did not apply to them.

And thus I can say undoubtedly what they did was utterly wrong and completely went against western values, particularly that of individual sovereignty. You have to understand, I'm not defending these people. If they go against Western values, then they're not spokespeople of said western values.

17 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

I lived in a collective village in lebanon and when foreigners came we treated them with respect as in islam we are all collectively part of gods creation wether black, white, yellow, etc we will all return to Allah(stw) when we die.

That's not collectivism. Collectivism is putting the group identity over the individual identity, thus violating individual sovereignty. It's not apparent that that was happening at your village in Lebanon.

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16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

@Hussain_ 

Now before you make a response, I just remebered this forum is about hijab, we are both deviating from the subject, if you want to talk about hadiths being not timeless or individualism is in line with islam, i would really suggest making forum with that subject.

Now as for your claim about hijab, as I said, all you are doing at this point is conjecture, because you just addmitted your self that you did not read the arabic and you only took it from the english translations and this is why I said that it is never a good idea to draw conclusions from an english translation.

We're not deviating from the topic, we're delving into the philosophical and historical depths the issue. If we can't do that then the solution to hijab won't ever come up. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the answers, but I'm doing what I can to contribute to the discussion.

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17 hours ago, BowTie said:

I still cant comprehend your problem with having women lecture other women about an issue that has to do with women.

Alright then men should also not study female biology and should not treat female patients at all too then. 

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3 hours ago, Hussain_ said:

We're not deviating from the topic, we're delving into the philosophical and historical depths the issue.

No were not, were talking about western values, if ahadiths are timeless or not, if europeans or arabs did this in history, individualism and collectivsm.

That has nothing to do with hijab, people here are seeing wether hijab has a strong basis in quran and ahadiths which have been confirmed by qualified people to be correct, if you beleive hadiths cannot be timeless and we should trust none of them 100 or 90% because you dont know is something else, but some people here beleive in hadiths not in the same way as you believe in them and they want to see if hadiths mention them and see how authentic, matawatir or whatever it is the hadith is and if it makes sense and etc.

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On 6/21/2020 at 10:53 AM, Guest Guest said:

Salam..

I don't know the best way to open up this discussion. I assume that most people on this site is strict and maybe even have a hard time thinking outside of the box (no offense) I believe that we can still talk about things in a highly and valuable manner and try to understand each other. See I don’t believe in the concept of head veil for women. As a so called “hijabi” I’ve been wearing it for as long as I can remember and now researching it for 3 years I’ve found out it’s historical meaning. No ayah meantion hair nor any hadeeth and still it is made very very clear by scholars that the hair must be covered. But why? I mean even the ahadeeth doesn’t say HAIR.

 I’ve also seen Sayed Kamal Al-Haydaris statement about renewing things according to time and I couldn't agree more - he was speaking about the hijab. 
I think most scholars are agreeing on the hair thing to keep it as a symbol to differentiate muslim women from non-muslims just like they did 1400 ago. I personally find this saddening because it would then only be mustahab and not wajib - it would solve a lot of issues for so many women and their struggles. Women who don't intend on showing of their body (keep their hijab, which I think is covering of the body and not the hair). I ask myself why everything is made so easy for men by our scholars? Mutah was an issue for men with urges (animalistic much) and voila, a new fatwah regarding the issue and now so many practice it - even though mutaa was originally thought to be for WOMEN. Why does women have to struggle and cover their hair and in some translations of the Quraan - their face too? I’m so sorry but it doesn't make sense at all! If you’re a man who’s going to tell about the headscarf and how beautiful it is I want you to close your eyes for a brief moment and imagine you have to wear a scarf to cover your hair (believe me or not I find mens hair the most attractive on them) all day everyday. At work, at school, at every gathering or event with women in it. Imagine! Not pleasant or necessary, right? Now don't get me wrong I believe in the hijab as in modesty and to cover up the body with loose clothing. I just can’t seem to put my head around the fact that fibers on the head should be covered in order to be modest. Nor do I believe that a woman is less of muslimah if she chose not to cover her hair. In the end Allah knows best!

Don’t be insensitive when giving your opinion. 

Ws

Makarim Akhlaq, v.2, p. 324, no. 2656

And is this your nafs writing this. You seem very ignorant in your approach to this matter. As in dont take this the wrong way but its not just women that have a hijab. The hijab of men is to keep a beard that covers the chin. And just some common sense maybe you should ask a Aalim- e- Deen/ Scholar. Ask a few not 1. And know also that you tried attacking men by saying that we have sexual urges and that it is 'animalistic much' in brackets is a bit offending on a first look. Women also have sexual desires. After all it was in the days of Jahiliyyah that women carried certain disgusting jobs involving sexual activity.

My advice instead of debating with us , ask some scholars. They have more knowledge then we do. You can an understanding and benefit from their answers and as a result get your answer. If you cant find them physically in your area, then email them. Im sure they would happy to help.

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12 hours ago, Guest No name said:

Salam,

guest guest, there is nothing wrong with posing your question regarding hijab. But ask questions to learn. 

You can argue the arabic as much as you like but where in the Quran does it mention to pray 5 times a day? Shall we delete that from hadith and pray 3 times and pray the night prayer? Think about it. 

if you consider yourself a muslim then you will believe in the fundamentals - tawheed - the oneness of God, adl - justice of God, Prophethood, Divinely appointed Leadership, Day of Judgement. 
 

i would suggest you return to the fundamentals. 
 

God’s laws are perfect, they are not dependent on what we the created think about it. Praying 5 times a day is a trial - shall we stop trying? Fasting is a trial - shall we stop or only fast for as many hours suits us? Relationships with others is a trial - shall we ignore our moral/ethical/financial obligations? Hijab is also a trial does that mean we take it off? Eating halal food is a trial - does that mean we eat whatever suits us? Earning halal income is a trial - does that mean we just do with whatever means necessary to gain wealth?
 

Why is it when we face a trial, our Islamic values is the first to go? Why?

Because we think we know better than God.

Its the ego disguised in this ‘I’m a victim’ trail of thoughts thats the problem. 

Think about it. And think about your relationship with God. That’s all it is. You need to work on your belief system starting with the most fundamental - believing in the Oneness of God. 

No lady wears hijab because of men - we wear it because God gave us the strength to be the visible ambassadors of Islam. If you feel you don’t have the strength then ask God to give you the strength. Talk to Him and tell Him how difficult you are finding it and to help you build the courage to wear it. 

if you don’t want to wear hijab that’s your decision to make - ‘there is no compulsion in religion’(Q2:256) and if you think you have a different interpretation and want to adhere to that then thats also fine - ‘to you your religion and to me mine’ (Q109:6)

you have choices. But remember none of us are perfect and we are all on a journey of becoming better Muslims. We have all gone through, going through, and will go through trials because that’s what this earth is - a trial. whether you believe in a religion or not, whether you have faith or not, everything created has a lifespan and within its lifespan it has many trials. You can not escape trials whether you wear hijab or don’t. 

Peace. 

Thank you for a great response. It doesn't mean I’m convinced with the head veil. It’s an issue to be an ambassador, because we are nothing but human beings. We are not the religion. ISIS claimed to be the ambassador for the religion as well but they - and too hijabis - can only be ambassadors for themselves. It’s not a good thing to claim to be an ambassador for the whole religion because you nor I nor any good woman can live up to it 100% time and who in the world can say if your way is the right way and my way is the wrong way? No one. Because most of what we do is an interpretation of 1000 of things from the Quraan and ahadiths. We are individuals that’s how we are created. Many of us lives among people from 100 different beliefs. We are only for ourselves to blame at the end of time and you said it beautifully yourself. We need to look at the core values of your religion which are so simple. That’s what matters the most. Salah is essential and Allah guides us in the Quraan and we follow through Mohammed. Allah guides the women of faith to cover their bosoms - you read it as hair also and I don’t and that’s ok. Telling me i’m wrong is also ok because i’ll be wrong to you and right to myself. But telling me that I’m less muslim or ranking me by a homemade who-goes-to-jahannam-and-who-does’t scale is just not acceptable. Not saying that you did.

ws

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1 hour ago, Mohammad Hasan Khan HTL said:

Makarim Akhlaq, v.2, p. 324, no. 2656

And is this your nafs writing this. You seem very ignorant in your approach to this matter. As in dont take this the wrong way but its not just women that have a hijab. The hijab of men is to keep a beard that covers the chin. And just some common sense maybe you should ask a Aalim- e- Deen/ Scholar. Ask a few not 1. And know also that you tried attacking men by saying that we have sexual urges and that it is 'animalistic much' in brackets is a bit offending on a first look. Women also have sexual desires. 

Well, I’m not sure at all how to response to this. Calling me ignorant and then claiming something false about mens hijab? Men don’t have to grow a beard as part of their hijab. They have to cover in a certain way although they don’t need to cover their hair. Women are told to do so and I see a problem in that and this is why I wrote in here.

Ws.

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1 hour ago, AStruggler said:

Alright then men should also not study female biology and should not treat female patients at all too then. 

Apples and oranges.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Guest Ghaith said:

Apples and oranges.

Nah I think it was valid enough to hold value. 

But anyway, break it down for me then, show me how it was an invalid comparison which held no value. 

Edited by AStruggler
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

you read it as hair also and I don’t and that’s ok. Telling me i’m wrong is also ok because i’ll be wrong to you and right to myself

That's the problem nowadays. We're losing our sense of unity in valuing and adhering to objective reality and truth.  

This kind of thinking will eventually result in chaos and meaninglessness. All existent phenomena would appear as subjective constructs. No truth would be recognized as the truth. Human experience would become nothing but a purposeless soup of meaningless and disharmonious phenomena. 

Edited by AStruggler
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2 hours ago, Hussain_ said:

By "progress" or "advanced" I don't mean just technologically. That's only a part of it, or rather a reflection of the real progress

I agree. I hate the western foreign policy as it goes against the fundamental values it was based upon. When I say the "West", I don't mean politically, but philosophically and the core values the original political system was based on, not the twisted policies we have today.

[...]

Again, Western people made mistakes and did unspeakable things against the core values of the West, which built the western civilization. Colonizing, forcing people, etc is against the core western value of individual sovereignty

And thus I can say undoubtedly what they did was utterly wrong and completely went against western values, particularly that of individual sovereignty. You have to understand, I'm not defending these people. If they go against Western values, then they're not spokespeople of said western values.

Western 'foreign policy' is inextricably linked to its progress. You don't think it's a little coincidental that the West started making all this progress just when it started colonising the rest of the World? Do you know how much wealth was accrued by the West as a result of colonialism, pillaging of resources and slavery, and it was this wealth allowed it to create the kind of society that produced all its great thinkers and innovations? It is also what allowed it to dominate other civilisations and keep them behind.

Without these aspects that you think are against 'Western values', there would be no West as we know it. Even to this day, they are still at it, albeit in more subtle form, and with some competition from China. But look at the wars in the Middle East. What do you think all that's about?

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2 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Thank you for a great response. It doesn't mean I’m convinced with the head veil. It’s an issue to be an ambassador, because we are nothing but human beings. We are not the religion. ISIS claimed to be the ambassador for the religion as well but they - and too hijabis - can only be ambassadors for themselves. It’s not a good thing to claim to be an ambassador for the whole religion because you nor I nor any good woman can live up to it 100% time and who in the world can say if your way is the right way and my way is the wrong way? No one. Because most of what we do is an interpretation of 1000 of things from the Quraan and ahadiths. We are individuals that’s how we are created. Many of us lives among people from 100 different beliefs. We are only for ourselves to blame at the end of time and you said it beautifully yourself. We need to look at the core values of your religion which are so simple. That’s what matters the most. Salah is essential and Allah guides us in the Quraan and we follow through Mohammed. Allah guides the women of faith to cover their bosoms - you read it as hair also and I don’t and that’s ok. Telling me i’m wrong is also ok because i’ll be wrong to you and right to myself. But telling me that I’m less muslim or ranking me by a homemade who-goes-to-jahannam-and-who-does’t scale is just not acceptable. Not saying that you did.

ws

You’re welcome and thank you for replying. I actually didn’t have any intention to reply as i don’t participate much on this forum but just wanted to add a few things.

 
Us women who call ourselves Muslims (based on the fundamentals of our faith which is believing in the Oneness of God, His Justice, Prophethood, Divinely appointed Leaders, Day of Judgement)  once our reasoning has been satisfied and we wholeheartedly define ourselves as Muslims - we are told by God to dress modestly including wearing the head covering because its how God wants us to dress and we do so with the intention of gaining closeness to Him. 
 

The reason why i was saying to return to the fundamentals of faith is because in there you will find the answer. when you believe in God your reasoning makes you believe in the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) etc. then you will accept the faith-  however difficult it is -you accept the rules and know rules have to be followed as best you can. Hijab is one of those rules. Its an obedience to God.
 

Have a think about this - you mentioned that prayers is essentials - how do you pray? Covered or uncovered? Perform your prayers without covering your head and perform hajj and umrah without covering your head. It is possible - you might get in trouble trying to perform hajj and umrah in saudi arabia without a covering but maybe there isn’t anyone at home or wherever you pray alone to God to say do it with a covering right? So why do you do it? 
 

We cover because it shows our humility towards God. Because He has asked us to dress in a certain way. All other rules food, drink, physical contact with non-mahrams, etc.etc. are observed as best we can as a act of worship, act of obedience, act of gaining closeness to God. He has set rules for us out of His Love for us. Now sometimes we don’t understand those rules and that’s fine but we try our best everyday to improve on our relationship with Him. Therefore dressing modestly including the covering of the head is an act of obedience to God. Nothing else. We seek His pleasure in our acts of obedience. 

I’ll say it again ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ (Q2:256) meaning you have a choice and where I said the second verse - it means you have your interpretation and I have mine - it in no way implies hell or heaven - no-one knows where anyone will end up only God knows - not saying you implied that but I wanted to be clear.

I don’t think I have anymore to add here other than work toward seeking God’s pleasure in whatever you do. 

May God make things easier for you. 

Peace.

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10 hours ago, AStruggler said:

That's the problem nowadays. We're losing our sense of unity in valuing and adhering to objective reality and truth.  

This kind of thinking will eventually result in chaos and meaninglessness. All existent phenomena would appear as subjective constructs. No truth would be recognized as the truth. Human experience would become nothing but a purposeless soup of meaningless and disharmonious phenomena. 

Not true at all. We lack in tolerance. We feel obligated to point fingers at each other and be better knowing although this is not appropriate. The problem here is the culture as I said. The culture makes it appropriate to shame and point fingers and even backbit. Islam in the world today has a weak spot and that is culture and lack of education in the eastern countries making it easy for the west to ruin it and even make ISIS and other evil groups. Again because of tolerance. Most clerics are very aggressive when they speak and are always angry (mostly sunni) but have you ever asked yourself why? True islam is accepting and tolerant and the one we know today is strict because of people. People tend to overthink and over-interpret and make everything difficult. Some said in this thread that Islam shouldn’t be easy necessarily. Not true. Islam is all about being easy. It should be easy because it’s a way of living. You have to live with yourself and live with the religion forever so it must be applicable to everyones life no matter when and where they live. The religion is whole humans aren’t the blank spaces are for time to fill in so it can fit every age of time. 

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11 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Western 'foreign policy' is inextricably linked to its progress. You don't think it's a little coincidental that the West started making all this progress just when it started colonising the rest of the World? Do you know how much wealth was accrued by the West as a result of colonialism, pillaging of resources and slavery, and it was this wealth allowed it to create the kind of society that produced all its great thinkers and innovations? It is also what allowed it to dominate other civilisations and keep them behind.

Without these aspects that you think are against 'Western values', there would be no West as we know it. Even to this day, they are still at it, albeit in more subtle form, and with some competition from China. But look at the wars in the Middle East. What do you think all that's about?

Very true. The colonization now has shifted forms. Now it's all about 'branding' in a certain country and then taking the profits from the sales of that brand back to the US / Europe. 

For example, if you go to KFC in the Dubai Airport, and you buy a chicken sandwich for 20 Dirhams, at least 10 of those Dirhams is profit, which means this 10 Dirhams is converted into $2.70, increasing the value of the dollar and decreasing the value of the Dirham (the first problem for those who use the Dirham) because of supply and demand, then the $2.70 goes back to the US where it most likely goes to increase the share price of KFC, which increases the value of the stock, which enriches the shareholders of that stock (who are probably already wealthy) and helps the US economy thru taxation(because KFC is a US Corporation), but takes money out of the economy of Dubai. That profit, 10  Dirhams is a fixed value asset. If it leaves Dubai, it never comes back. The only way it comes back is if a Corporation registered in Dubai or a Corporation registered on the Dubai Stock Exchange starts selling in the US and making a profit. This isn't happening. It could theoretically happen but it isn't. It used to, in the past, when Dubai used to sell oil to the US and the profits would go back. That isn't really happening now, as US Oil companies now sell almost all the oil within the US. Think about that next time you buy a sandwich at KFC. 

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Regarding the hijab, as far as I'm aware it's one of the few issues on which there has always been absolute consensus in the Muslim world, in all sects. Even on something as fundamental as praying, there are all kinds of differences of opinions, but nobody ever came along as said that actually it wasn't necessary to cover the hair until very recently, under the influence of Westerners. It seems a little far fetched to believe that such a consensus developed out of nothing, when Muslim scholars of different sects, and even among the same sect, have been able to disagree on almost everything else. So given there was no disagreement, why would you expect a large number of textual proofs? There isn't much need if everyone agrees anyway.

The reality is it's never been easier to wear the hijab in many part of the West, and I think when people are trying to go against a massive consensus, they should spend some time really doing some introspection and questioning their motives. All of us have preferences for how we would like things to be, whether we admit it or not. We are quick to make assumptions about scholars from the past, that they must all have been patriarchal chauvinists, looking to oppress women at every turn, when we don't even know them, but we aren't so comfortable looking at ourselves and analysing our own biases and desires. 

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14 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Well, I’m not sure at all how to response to this. Calling me ignorant and then claiming something false about mens hijab? Men don’t have to grow a beard as part of their hijab. They have to cover in a certain way although they don’t need to cover their hair. Women are told to do so and I see a problem in that and this is why I wrote in here.

Ws.

I said you 'seem' not you 'are'. There was a hadith I cant remember off the top of my head what book. If someone could help that be great. It was along the lines of that Rasullulah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that " A woman's hair is half her beauty". 

http://en.mobile.wikishia.net/index.php/Hijab#Hijab_in_the_Qur.27an 

Point to notice in the website above is the point on the jilbab and putting the chador 'over'. 

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/islamic-hijab-men-shaykh-saleem-bhimji

Men also have a hijab. It might not be as important as that of a woman in your eyes but it is. And there are certain acts that if violated and are haram and crossed over then they have serious punishments. For example not lowering your gaze. Men also have to wear modest clothing. You see there is a lot more look at these websites as well. Male modesty might not be as stressed in our community as it should be but iA will be future if ALLAH (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills. Have you not heard of the famous story of Marytr Ebrahim Hadi when he was told girls admired and noticed the clothes he wore, he started wearing loose clothes and even shaved his head bald. 

But I'd still advise you to ask a scholar. 

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What I got from reading some of the posts here is that your problem with hijab is your struggling with wearing it in a non-muslim country, but why do you not like that people are telling you to just endure? That’s what Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the first muslims did back when the majority of people in Mecca were infidels who hated Islam and mercilessly persecuted muslims. They preserved through all of it because they knew eventually they will be rewarded greatly for their struggles, no matter how dangerous or inconvenient it was. A brother here talked about being mocked while praying in public. Our Prophet also got mocked and had dirt thrown at him while praying in public. Did he stop or ask Allah whether praying was really necessary because he was struggling with it? No. It’s called Jihad. If you continue wearing your hijab despite what the non-muslim society thinks of you, you will be rewarded twice as much. Remember, the first muslim to die upholding their faith was a woman, the first martyr in Islam. 

 

I also want to point out that a lot of women are (unconsciously) debating such issues from a western feminist-influenced “men vs. women” perspective. Please remember we’re muslims before we’re men and women and don’t discredit men -fellow muslims- who are trying to tell you what’s good for you. 

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4 hours ago, Mohammad Hasan Khan HTL said:

I said you 'seem' not you 'are'. There was a hadith I cant remember off the top of my head what book. If someone could help that be great. It was along the lines of that Rasullulah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that " A woman's hair is half her beauty". 

http://en.mobile.wikishia.net/index.php/Hijab#Hijab_in_the_Qur.27an 

Point to notice in the website above is the point on the jilbab and putting the chador 'over'. 

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/islamic-hijab-men-shaykh-saleem-bhimji

Men also have a hijab. It might not be as important as that of a woman in your eyes but it is. And there are certain acts that if violated and are haram and crossed over then they have serious punishments. For example not lowering your gaze. Men also have to wear modest clothing. You see there is a lot more look at these websites as well. Male modesty might not be as stressed in our community as it should be but iA will be future if ALLAH (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills. Have you not heard of the famous story of Marytr Ebrahim Hadi when he was told girls admired and noticed the clothes he wore, he started wearing loose clothes and even shaved his head bald. 

But I'd still advise you to ask a scholar. 

The last part got me laughing. Sorry but there is nowhere you can make me believe that beauty is haram. It depends on what it is and what should be shown but a man got a compliment and he shaved off his head, why? 
 

Well, anyway. I wish I was born a man. Literally. This is how hard this is. Make jokes. Laugh all you want. But this is deep serious. Human oppress, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not oppress.

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1 hour ago, Guest Depressed sis said:

The last part got me laughing. Sorry but there is nowhere you can make me believe that beauty is haram. It depends on what it is and what should be shown but a man got a compliment and he shaved off his head, why? 
 

Well, anyway. I wish I was born a man. Literally. This is how hard this is. Make jokes. Laugh all you want. But this is deep serious. Human oppress, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not oppress.

Lol. I never said beauty was haram. Beauty for other than the sake of ALLAH (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is haram. Beauty is a good thing. And ALLAH (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beautiful and loves his servants to beautify themselves.

And the part on the compliment and then shaving his head. Its about modesty and perfecting yourself in relation to that quality in that even what may look like the slightest of starters of conversations or complementing should be a sign for that somebody to work on their modesty. Anyways this is a pretty entertaining chat in terms of replies and debates Ive seen in a long time

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On 7/4/2020 at 12:27 PM, Guest Guest said:

You’ll never understand it. It take up so much space in our mental health and thinking. I worry I stress I hate. I really feel lost and sinning is something I wanna avoid but it’s too hard

This is my first time to comment on Shiachat. I hear the pain in your voice. I can't imagine your struggle as I live in the West and my belief doesn't require me to wear a head scarf. However, I do understand the struggle of doing something that you don't want to or not doing something you should. In the Al-Injeel, it says in Romans 7:15-23, " I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.  And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me." I think we all have a sense of despair because we struggle with doing the right thing. We want to do it but somehow we constantly miss the mark. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that another woman is listening and hearing you, 

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14 hours ago, Greenthumb said:

This is my first time to comment on Shiachat. I hear the pain in your voice. I can't imagine your struggle as I live in the West and my belief doesn't require me to wear a head scarf.

...

 I think we all have a sense of despair because we struggle with doing the right thing. We want to do it but somehow we constantly miss the mark. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that another woman is listening and hearing you, 

Thank you so much! I think what draws people away from the religion is lack of understanding. It's like everything is just one huge fight where no matter what you do your feelings is not considerate - they are and will forever be the big looser. I don't believe in reforming the religion but I sure do believe that we need to start doing something about the way we perceive things. I need more people to be tolerant despair their belief and especially towards their fellow muslim brothers and sister (this is such a huge problem as muslims are being way more judged, shamed and humiliated by muslims than by people with other beliefs. I have issues with this topic. Deep concerning issues that are conflicting with everything  that I am and believe when it comes to the perception of women. And the worst of all is when a woman DECIDES not to wear the headscarf she becomes an outcast and people will maybe even stop communicating with her and her family and thus isolating them from the rest of the community - they will doubt the whole families belief and call them westernised and non-believers or what's even worst. Such a shame that we haven't come longer than this.

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5 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

I have issues with this topic. Deep concerning issues that are conflicting with everything  that I am and believe when it comes to the perception of women.

I know that being shamed takes its toll on your sense of well being and value. However, you are valued as a woman. You have a very special place in society. Because you are a woman you can see beauty and add beauty to the world around you. 

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On 7/8/2020 at 5:48 PM, Mohammad Hasan Khan HTL said:

If someone could help that be great. It was along the lines of that Rasullulah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that " A woman's hair is half her beauty". 

Salam

Quote

Whenever one of you wants to get married, he should ask about the specification of a woman's hair, as well as how she looks. Because a woman's hair is one of her two beauties (hair and face)

إِذَا أَرَادَ أَحَدُكُمْ أَنْ يَتَزَوَّجَ فَلْيَسْأَلْ عَنْ شَعْرِهَا كَمَا يَسْأَلُ عَنْ وَجْهِهَا فَإِنَّ الشَّعْرَ أَحَدُ الْجَمَالَيْن‏

من لا یحضره الفقیه، ج 3، ص 388 ، ح 4364 – مکارم الاخلاق ص 200

Kitāb Man lā yaḥḍuruh al-faqīh  , v 3 , p 388, hadith 4364 | Makarim Al Akhlaq p 200

https://www.aviny.com/hadis-mozooee/ejtemai/ezdevaj.aspx

 

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2 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

This makes the point about not wearing a headscarf even more valid. 

Of course! becauee women are encouraged to show off their beauty to random men. 

Can't believe this has gone on for five pages.

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

Of course! becauee women are encouraged to show off their beauty to random men. 

Can't believe this has gone on for five pages.

Sorry but what are you talking about seriously? Beauty is not bad?! It’s as natural as breathing. Beauty is not haram either. Sexual parts of the body is haram to show off etc. 
 

“To random men” dude, this is weird to say unless you know the woman is showing off her “hair” for men to look at her? Do you get a fresh haircut for women to look at you? Well some does. It doesn’t mean you’re sinning. Have some respect for peoples struggles and stop being so ignorant. You have strong feelings about being the dominating gender but the world is moving on and the true islam that gives women their rights are rising. Feminism is not about women being better than men but women being degraded and want to be heard.

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1 hour ago, Guest Sis said:

Sorry but what are you talking about seriously? Beauty is not bad?! It’s as natural as breathing. Beauty is not haram either. Sexual parts of the body is haram to show off etc. 
 

“To random men” dude, this is weird to say unless you know the woman is showing off her “hair” for men to look at her? Do you get a fresh haircut for women to look at you? Well some does. It doesn’t mean you’re sinning. Have some respect for peoples struggles and stop being so ignorant. You have strong feelings about being the dominating gender but the world is moving on and the true islam that gives women their rights are rising. Feminism is not about women being better than men but women being degraded and want to be heard.

This is really messed up.

Listen,if you don't want to do Hijab don't do it, but if you think you are going to start an anti Hijab campaign here and try proving all the scholars wrong, that's not going to happen. 

1 hour ago, Guest Sis said:

but the world is moving on

Exactly,moving forwards towards the return of Imam Zamana (عليه السلام) and if you are okay facing the Imam(عليه السلام) with your hair uncovered and without a hijab, fine.

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7 hours ago, starlight said:

Of course! becauee women are encouraged to show off their beauty to random men. 

Can't believe this has gone on for five pages.

I don’t think women who don’t wear hijab are encouraged to “show off” their beauty. In fact, even in Western societies, there is active shaming against women who choose to wear what they want, revealing or not. Modest or not. I don’t believe you’ve ever lived in a Western country if you believe that women are encouraged to show off their beauty. 

Besides, women don’t intend to “show off” their beauty—they are just wearing clothes that they like, or are trending, or to express individuality in the different styles and accessories such as country style clothes, bohemian, or whatever other styles are out there. Women aren’t some temptresses that go around trying to attract men—women dress for themselves. Maybe it is a foreign concept that women dress for themselves just like men dress for themselves for you because of your mindset. 

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7 hours ago, starlight said:

This is really messed up.

Listen,if you don't want to do Hijab don't do it, but if you think you are going to start an anti Hijab campaign here and try proving all the scholars wrong, that's not going to happen. 

Exactly,moving forwards towards the return of Imam Zamana (عليه السلام) and if you are okay facing the Imam(عليه السلام) with your hair uncovered and without a hijab, fine.

Ok, so my post won’t go through. Anyway, I feel being totally ignorant about the sister’s feels is not okay. We should be more tolerant as previously stated. Period.

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9 hours ago, Guest Sis said:

Sorry but what are you talking about seriously? Beauty is not bad?! It’s as natural as breathing. Beauty is not haram either.

I don't think she said anywhere that beauty is bad or evil, just that it shouldn't be shown to random/non-mahram men. Women can go ahead and show off their beauty as much they like in front of their husband though! In fact I think it's encouraged in Islam.

9 hours ago, Guest Sis said:

dude, this is weird to say unless you know the woman is showing off her “hair” for men to look at her? Do you get a fresh haircut for women to look at you? Well some does. It doesn’t mean you’re sinning. Have some respect for peoples struggles and stop being so ignorant. You have strong feelings about being the dominating gender but the world is moving on and the true islam that gives women their rights are rising. Feminism is not about women being better than men but women being degraded and want to be heard.

"starlight" sounds like a pretty girly name. You're being overly judgmental and blinded by your biases. A lot of women do take pride in their hijab you know. It's not just men who care about hijab. 

And haha calm down, men have better things to do then compete with you and your fellow females in trying to establish dominance. Of course women shouldn't be degraded, no real man of real honour would want that. The position of women in Islam is very lofty.

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On 7/11/2020 at 8:01 PM, Guest Saywhat said:

I don’t think women who don’t wear hijab are encouraged to “show off” their beauty. In fact, even in Western societies, there is active shaming against women who choose to wear what they want, revealing or not. Modest or not. I don’t believe you’ve ever lived in a Western country if you believe that women are encouraged to show off their beauty. 

Besides, women don’t intend to “show off” their beauty—they are just wearing clothes that they like, or are trending, or to express individuality in the different styles and accessories such as country style clothes, bohemian, or whatever other styles are out there. Women aren’t some temptresses that go around trying to attract men—women dress for themselves. Maybe it is a foreign concept that women dress for themselves just like men dress for themselves for you because of your mindset. 

It’s so hard to be the weaker gender. Not mentally weaker but culturally. Women stand out as weak for some reason. I’m sick and tires of it - really! Women can do anything in the eyes of these so called “cultural honorable men” as long as they wear the veil. Disgusting.

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