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please provide authentic narrations with proving the event of Umar allegedly pushing the door and why after Fatima (asws) had left the material world IMAM Ali (ASWS)  Still gave baya/oath to Abubakr please tell me.

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3 hours ago, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

hmmm give more narration plese

Tabari (Volume II, page 443) , Al-Imama wa’s-Siyasa, Volume I, page 13, Iqdu’l-Farid, Part III, page 63, Ibn Khaziba in his Kitab-e-Gharrar, Ibn Shahna in Hashiyya-e-Kamil of Ibn Athir Volume XI, page 112

Ibn Abi Shayba’s Musannaf

“…From Zayd b. Aslam; he narrates from his father Aslam: "When allegiance was paid to Abu Bakr, after the death of the Messenger of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Ali and Zubayr used to go to Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet, for consultation. When this fact was known to Umar bin Khattab, he went to Fatimah and said: ‘O daughter of the Prophet! I did not love anyone as much as I loved your father, nor anyone after him is more loving to me as you are. However, I swear by Allah that if these people (those who have not paid allegiance to Abu Bakr) assemble here with you, this love of mine will not prevent me from setting your house on fire.’"

Kitab-e-Isbatu'l-Wasiyya, compiled by Abi'l-Hasan Ali Bin Husain Mas'udi, author of Muruju'dh-Dhahab. He wrote in great detail about the events of that day: "They surrounded Ali and burned the door of his house. They dragged him out of the house and pressed the best of the women, Fatima, between the door and the wall so forcefully that Muhsin, her unborn son, died of miscarriage." The Shias have not concocted these things. What occurred has been preserved in the pages of history. The miscarriage is a fact.

You may also refer to Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume III, page 351. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid wrote that he told his teacher, Abu Ja'far Naqib, that when the Prophet was told that Hubbar Bin Aswad had attacked his daughter Zainab's litter with a lance, because of which Zainab suffered a miscarriage, the Prophet allowed him to be put to death. Abu Ja'far said: 'Had the Prophet of Allah been alive, he would have surely ordered the death penalty for him also who had frightened Fatima so much that her child, Muhsin, died in miscarriage.'

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Guest Roger
12 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

I am right now debating the "Sunni" defense on this topic

Good luck with that according to answers here a normal Sunni can debate you.

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Guest Janeman
On 6/20/2020 at 7:29 PM, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Tabari (Volume II, page 443) , Al-Imama wa’s-Siyasa, Volume I, page 13, Iqdu’l-Farid, Part III, page 63, Ibn Khaziba in his Kitab-e-Gharrar, Ibn Shahna in Hashiyya-e-Kamil of Ibn Athir Volume XI, page 112

Ibn Abi Shayba’s Musannaf

“…From Zayd b. Aslam; he narrates from his father Aslam: "When allegiance was paid to Abu Bakr, after the death of the Messenger of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Ali and Zubayr used to go to Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet, for consultation. When this fact was known to Umar bin Khattab, he went to Fatimah and said: ‘O daughter of the Prophet! I did not love anyone as much as I loved your father, nor anyone after him is more loving to me as you are. However, I swear by Allah that if these people (those who have not paid allegiance to Abu Bakr) assemble here with you, this love of mine will not prevent me from setting your house on fire.’"

Kitab-e-Isbatu'l-Wasiyya, compiled by Abi'l-Hasan Ali Bin Husain Mas'udi, author of Muruju'dh-Dhahab. He wrote in great detail about the events of that day: "They surrounded Ali and burned the door of his house. They dragged him out of the house and pressed the best of the women, Fatima, between the door and the wall so forcefully that Muhsin, her unborn son, died of miscarriage." The Shias have not concocted these things. What occurred has been preserved in the pages of history. The miscarriage is a fact.

You may also refer to Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume III, page 351. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid wrote that he told his teacher, Abu Ja'far Naqib, that when the Prophet was told that Hubbar Bin Aswad had attacked his daughter Zainab's litter with a lance, because of which Zainab suffered a miscarriage, the Prophet allowed him to be put to death. Abu Ja'far said: 'Had the Prophet of Allah been alive, he would have surely ordered the death penalty for him also who had frightened Fatima so much that her child, Muhsin, died in miscarriage.'

Someone’s answered you on this on sd,I would like to see your response.

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On 6/20/2020 at 6:08 PM, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

please provide authentic narrations with proving the event of Umar allegedly pushing the door and why after Fatima (asws) had left the material world IMAM Ali (ASWS)  Still gave baya/oath to Abubakr please tell me.

There are no authentic narration as far as I'm aware.

Zaidi position is Bibi Fatima died a natural death.

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Guest Huh
10 hours ago, Warilla said:

There are no authentic narration as far as I'm aware.

Zaidi position is Bibi Fatima died a natural death.

At the age of 18? Thats unlikely. 

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4 hours ago, Guest Huh said:

At the age of 18? Thats unlikely. 

Why ? Miscarriage in medieval Arabia. Very likely. Average life expectancy has increased but even now with modern medical tech young still die. 

Ultimately it's in Allah's hands.

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On 6/27/2020 at 1:25 PM, Labbayka said:

I don’t understand how top historians like al-Tabari can report these claims and still consider themselves Sunnis.

Because he didn't believe them to be true.

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7 hours ago, Guest Huh said:

At the age of 18? Thats unlikely. 

All of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's children died at a very young age.  Out of his 7 children, only Fatima عليها السلام ورضي الله عنها lived past his death

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On 6/29/2020 at 10:24 AM, Guest Janeman said:

Someone’s answered you on this on sd,I would like to see your response.

I've already answered him, he tried to weaken Tabari by giving it Hadith standards, he said i was bringing books written 100 years after the event happened but he still believes in Abdullah ibn Saba who was made up more than 100 years after the Battle of Jamal 

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But please tell why Imam Ali (ASWS) didn't kill umar or anyone else for that matter. now don't say because of paitience, or a civil war that makes no sense gove a valid reason why he didn't kill him??

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20 minutes ago, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

But please tell why Imam Ali (ASWS) didn't kill umar or anyone else for that matter. now don't say because of paitience, or a civil war that makes no sense gove a valid reason why he didn't kill him??

Why would he kill him? What exactly would it achieve? 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Why would he kill him? What exactly would it achieve? 

Because it says in Quran (178 - 179:) Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose.

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Just now, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

Because it says in Quran (178 - 179:) Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose.

and Mola (ASWS) would definitely obey Quran don't say he forgave/remited bcoz forgiving the murder if the Daughter of The Holy Prophet? (SAWAWS) I don't think so

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5 hours ago, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

and Mola (ASWS) would definitely obey Quran don't say he forgave/remited bcoz forgiving the murder if the Daughter of The Holy Prophet? (SAWAWS) I don't think so

Some narrations say Imam Ali (عليه السلام) threw Umar to the floor and said If the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had not tied my hands than I would have killed you.

The morning after the secret burial of Fatima (عليها السلام) Umar and Abu Bakr tried to dig up the grave and pray on it, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would not tolerate such a thing, so he put on his battle clothing and pulled out his sword and was ready to fight but no one dared approach him.

A'alam al Hidayah, Volume 3, p. 205-207  

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7 hours ago, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

Because it says in Quran (178 - 179:) Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose.

 

7 hours ago, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

and Mola (ASWS) would definitely obey Quran don't say he forgave/remited bcoz forgiving the murder if the Daughter of The Holy Prophet? (SAWAWS) I don't think so

In that case its Qunfudh, rather than Umar, who should be struck. Keep in mind when the Imam (عليه السلام) was struck in Masjid al Kufa , Ibn Muljim wasn't killed either. The Quran isn't instructing you to kill the murderer, rather it's highlighting the punishment that can be given for such a crime by a judge. 

So this wouldn't have been administered by the Imam (عليه السلام) rather it was the duty of Abu Bakr or whoever he appointed as judges of the court. 

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7 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

 

In that case its Qunfudh, rather than Umar, who should be struck. Keep in mind when the Imam (عليه السلام) was struck in Masjid al Kufa , Ibn Muljim wasn't killed either. The Quran isn't instructing you to kill the murderer, rather it's highlighting the punishment that can be given for such a crime by a judge. 

So this wouldn't have been administered by the Imam (عليه السلام) rather it was the duty of Abu Bakr or whoever he appointed as judges of the court. 

hmmm goood point, but I want to know, obviously since there is nothing in the multiverse that The Prophet (SAWAWS) Doesn't know coz he knows everything so knowing about this why didn't he do anything then like appointing guards, or a stone house or something like that before he put a veil on from this world same question for Fadak, if it was a gift then why He didn't give it before or was it always originally inheritance not a gift if it was always inheritance not a gift than that makes sense tbh. but if he knew they would do that why would he keep them around himself?

Edited by A_KazmiSayyid313
adding a point

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yes but appointing guards is not punishing but protecting hmmm\??? ALSO PLEASE CHECK MY TOPIC : Can Wali/Awliya be is these 3 people? :

BOld is the topic name please answer

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OK SO PLEASE EXPLAIN: 

Why would Imams (ASWS) ahlulbayt (ASWS) name their sons umar or uthman or some of the sahaba of imams called umar uthman DON'T tell me the classic its a common arabic name. despite knowing the killer of their grandmother they still name umar and uthman why THERE IS NO SENSE UNless u give me simple logic then yeah. Bro Yazid was a commin name but after karbala and the death of actual yazid (May allah's curse be upon him, his lovers, and impure progeny) NO ONE NAMED THEIR kid Yazid after that? (SOME PEOPLE NAME THEIR KIDS MUAWIYAH) nowadays but that is jahahliya or stupidity but are imams are infalliable why they do that pplease explain I hope everyone can answer. lol

(p.s. Ansur Shiat Ali counting on you to give an answer bro... good luck!) :keeporder:

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I have always been skeptical of this incident. I think we would have way more traditions if this were true. Why do we not have a single narration from Imam Ali in regards to this?

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4 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I have always been skeptical of this incident. I think we would have way more traditions if this were true. Why do we not have a single narration from Imam Ali in regards to this?

That’s true, however it is recorded and narrated by Sulaym ibn Qais, one of the most loyal companions of Imam Ali AS.

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6 hours ago, A_KazmiSayyid313 said:

OK SO PLEASE EXPLAIN: 

Why would Imams (ASWS) ahlulbayt (ASWS) name their sons umar or uthman or some of the sahaba of imams called umar uthman DON'T tell me the classic its a common arabic name. despite knowing the killer of their grandmother they still name umar and uthman why THERE IS NO SENSE UNless u give me simple logic then yeah. Bro Yazid was a commin name but after karbala and the death of actual yazid (May allah's curse be upon him, his lovers, and impure progeny) NO ONE NAMED THEIR kid Yazid after that? (SOME PEOPLE NAME THEIR KIDS MUAWIYAH) nowadays but that is jahahliya or stupidity but are imams are infalliable why they do that pplease explain I hope everyone can answer. lol

(p.s. Ansur Shiat Ali counting on you to give an answer bro... good luck!) :keeporder:

The biggest example is Imam Ali (عليه السلام), he named his some of his sons,

1. Abu Bakr ibn Ali (عليه السلام), his kunya was Abu Bakr, some people say his name was Abdullah, Ubayd Allah, or Muhammad. He has martyred in Karbala.

2. Umar ibn Ali, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) named him after Umar ibn Abi Salama (رضي الله عنه).

3. Uthman ibn Ali, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) named him after Uthman ibn Mathoon (رضي الله عنه).

Hopefully this answers your question.

و صل الله على محمد و آل محمد 

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20 hours ago, Labbayka said:

That’s true, however it is recorded and narrated by Sulaym ibn Qais, one of the most loyal companions of Imam Ali AS.

Very questionable source according to scholars themselves. This story would have been repeated by Imam Ali, Imam Hasan or Imam Hussain by the least. I would have no issue believing it if there was a supporting hadith from the early Imams.

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On 7/8/2020 at 11:52 AM, 786:) said:

Very questionable source according to scholars themselves. This story would have been repeated by Imam Ali, Imam Hasan or Imam Hussain by the least. I would have no issue believing it if there was a supporting hadith from the early Imams.

Same here, but then again according to the Sunni school of thought another person who didn’t pledge allegiance to Umar, Sa’ad ibn Ubadah was apparently “killed by a jinn”.

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57 minutes ago, Labbayka said:

Same here, but then again according to the Sunni school of thought another person who didn’t pledge allegiance to Umar, Sa’ad ibn Ubadah was apparently “killed by a jinn”.

I just dont understand how Shias can make this incident such a focal point of their theology with one narration from a suspect source.

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