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Is it true that aytollah syed kamal al hyderi doesn't believe imams are maasoom?

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Guest Karbalaiy

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No I don't think it's true. If I'm not mistaken he has the same view as some of our early scholars which was that the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) are free from sin and misguidance but can make human mistakes or errors. 

Regarding your second question, if you consider him to be among the most knowledgeable mujtahideen then you may indeed refer to him in matters of jurisprudence. 

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He holds many odd and non-mainstream Shi’ite beliefs. He believes that many Azadari rituals are innovations, that Arbaeen shouldn’t be practised, that maraji’ allegedly accumulate wealth and therefore Khums should be reformed or abandoned, the Imam Mahdi's (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) birth is allegedly difficult to prove using rijal and so on. He makes his popularity on making non-issues into issues, thrives on controversies while trying to “reform” the mainstream, orthodox Shi’ite scholarly curriculum.

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58 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

He holds many odd and non-mainstream Shi’ite beliefs. He believes that many Azadari rituals are innovations, that Arbaeen shouldn’t be practised, that maraji’ allegedly accumulate wealth and therefore Khums should be reformed or abandoned, the Imam Mahdi's (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) birth is allegedly difficult to prove using rijal and so on. He makes his popularity on making non-issues into issues, thrives on controversies while trying to “reform” the mainstream, orthodox Shi’ite scholarly curriculum.

These views might be ‘non-mainstream’, but they don’t sound that unreasonable. If he’s wrong about these things, then he should be refuted academically, rather than simply for the fact that he goes against the mainstream. I’m not sure how anyone could even try to defend the position that many Azadari rituals aren’t innovations. That just seems obvious. The only question would be whether you think these are good or bad innovations. But certainly nobody was doing this stuff during the time of the Imams (عليه السلام).

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11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

No I don't think it's true. If I'm not mistaken he has the same view as some of our early scholars which was that the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) are free from sin and misguidance but can make human mistakes or errors. 

Regarding your second question, if you consider him to be among the most knowledgeable mujtahideen then you may indeed refer to him in matters of jurisprudence. 

We are free to criticize anyone in terms of Beliefs aren't we? 

Sheikh Sadooq believed that Prophet can make mistake and even came up with a hadith on this. And in that hadith, those ho believe he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can't err were cursed by Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) (if i remember correctly). Thats why i dont want to trust them when they accuse someone for their Mathab and curse him and call him a liar.

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11 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

These views might be ‘non-mainstream’, but they don’t sound that unreasonable. If he’s wrong about these things, then he should be refuted academically, rather than simply for the fact that he goes against the mainstream. I’m not sure how anyone could even try to defend the position that many Azadari rituals aren’t innovations. That just seems obvious. The only question would be whether you think these are good or bad innovations. But certainly nobody was doing this stuff during the time of the Imams (عليه السلام).

Azadari rituals are way of expressing sad feelings and can be different for different areas and people but they can't be counted in innovations since its Gham-e-Hussein and it has its basis in Hadith.

Now if you object to a specific ritual, you must prove its forbidden. Example Zanjeer Zani etc else who are you to object to gham e Hussein? If you have a problem with any of the rituals, just don't do it.

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Now if you object to a specific ritual, you must prove its forbidden. Example Zanjeer Zani etc else who are you to object to gham e Hussein? If you have a problem with any of the rituals, just don't do it.

I don't think its just about something being forbidden or not. For every action there is a basis. Gathering to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was a practice in which our aimmah (عليه السلام) and their companions participated. Poetry and lamentations were part of these gatherings. So there is a basis for such things. 

There are however other aspects which don't have a religious basis, and simply grew several centuries later as self-made practices often based on misconceptions. 

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

I don't think its just about something being forbidden or not. For every action there is a basis. Gathering to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was a practice in which our aimmah (عليه السلام) and their companions participated. Poetry and lamentations were part of these gatherings. So there is a basis for such things. 

There are however other aspects which don't have a religious basis, and simply grew several centuries later as self-made practices often based on misconceptions. 

Maybe. But how you gather and commemorate some event or express greif can be different for different people.

Imam has said everything is allowed until its forbidden. So if a particular trend or action is to be excluded from it, it must be from words of Masoom. 

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6 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

We are free to criticize anyone in terms of Beliefs aren't we? 

Sheikh Sadooq believed that Prophet can make mistake and even came up with a hadith on this. And in that hadith, those ho believe he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can't err were cursed by Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) (if i remember correctly). Thats why i dont want to trust them when they accuse someone for their Mathab and curse him and call him a liar.

But you trust them to collect the hadiths for us? Maybe it’s worth considering whether you might not be approaching this from the wrong direction. Rather than assuming that what most people now believe is correct, and using that to judge the early scholars (those upon who we rely on for the sources of our religion), maybe it’s worth considering whether they were correct, and we are the ones who have deviated.

Regarding the specific hadith you are talking about, can you quote it?

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4 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Azadari rituals are way of expressing sad feelings and can be different for different areas and people but they can't be counted in innovations since its Gham-e-Hussein and it has its basis in Hadith.

Now if you object to a specific ritual, you must prove its forbidden. Example Zanjeer Zani etc else who are you to object to gham e Hussein? If you have a problem with any of the rituals, just don't do it.

Ok, but that wasn’t the criticism. It was that ‘certain Azadari rituals are innovations’. Do you believe that all the rituals that are now performed have a basis in the teachings and practice of the Imams?

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5 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Now if you object to a specific ritual, you must prove its forbidden. Example Zanjeer Zani etc else who are you to object to gham e Hussein? If you have a problem with any of the rituals, just don't do it.

Salam

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/4209/Tatbir-is-a-wrongful-and-fabricated-tradition-Imam-Khamenei

I usually don't listen to khamenei nor do i do taqleed of him,but whatever he says sounds very logical.We, shias are the representatives of our Imam,Acts such as tatbir and zanjeer zani doesn't make a good representation of shia  Islam,doesn't it?

As for commemorating ashura, there's many other acts which can be done.We can look at narrations and see how the imams did azadari.

Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) said:

O shia,be an adornment for us[amongst people] and not a disgrace for us.

[Amali-as-Saduq p327]

We need to ponder that by doing these act(zanjeer zani),Are we being an adornment for ahlebayt amongst the people?

Wassalam.

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On 6/20/2020 at 9:06 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

But you trust them to collect the hadiths for us? Maybe it’s worth considering whether you might not be approaching this from the wrong direction. Rather than assuming that what most people now believe is correct, and using that to judge the early scholars (those upon who we rely on for the sources of our religion), maybe it’s worth considering whether they were correct, and we are the ones who have deviated.

Well maybe. There is always a possibility. But wide majority of scholors is honest when quoting words of Imam (عليه السلام) and similarly was back then. Difference of opinion is based on standards of acceptance of hadith which are different for different scholors.

Just like Sadooq said who added third testimony in Azaan are mafooza. Now what does third testimony in azaan has to do with Aqeedah of Tafweez? (Even though now i believe its incorrect to add third testimony in adhan)
Point is, people who were different to them in aqiad, have been a target of these scholors. Like Sahl-Bin-Ziyad etc

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21 hours ago, Guest Karbalaiy said:

Please tell me if this is true or not and can we do his taqleed??

salam, what have you heard or read about or from the sayyid that makes you believe he does not consider the Imams to be infallible?

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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

We are free to criticize anyone in terms of Beliefs aren't we? 

Sheikh Sadooq believed that Prophet can make mistake and even came up with a hadith on this. And in that hadith, those ho believe he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can't err were cursed by Imam Ali Raza (عليه السلام) (if i remember correctly). Thats why i dont want to trust them when they accuse someone for their Mathab and curse him and call him a liar.

Surah 53:1-4 is pretty clear my bro. Quran overweights Hadith. 

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25 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Surah 53:1-4 is pretty clear my bro. Quran overweights Hadith. 

Yes bro. Even, the 1st narrator of Hadith was mentioned weak by Ayatollah Khoi in his Rijal.

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22 hours ago, Guest Karbalaiy said:

Please tell me if this is true or not and can we do his taqleed??

We do not "follow" a Marje-e-Taqlid in Fubdamentals of Faith ( Tawheed, Justice, Prophethood, Divine Imamat, Day of Judgement).

However, we do read their arguments/proofs to supplement our understanding in Fundamental Of Faith. like https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-wahid-khorasani

We do have an Divinely Appointed Imam of the Time(عليه السلام). We are on Faith of the Mas'oomeen(عليه السلام) in terms of Tawheed, Justice, Prophethood, Divine Imamat, and Day of judgement. 

Quote

Taqlid

Following a Mujtahid

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

    i) The man concerned should be a Mujtahid (jurist)1 himself and should know the Articles of Acts on the basis of Ijtihad2 and reason (i.e. he should be a man of such high learning and scholarship that he can solve problems from his study of the Qur’an and Hadith).

    ii) If he is not a jurist himself, he should follow a jurist i.e. he should act according to the judgment (fatwa) of the jurist without demanding proof.

    iii) If he is neither a jurist nor a follower (muqallid) he should act after taking such precaution that he should become sure of his having performed his religious duty. For example, if some jurists consider an act to be unlawful and some others say that it is not unlawful, he should not perform that act and in case some jurists consider an act to be obligatory (wajib) and others consider it to be recommended (mustahab) he should perform it. Hence it is obligatory for those persons who are not jurists and cannot also take precautionary measures (ihtiyat) to follow a jurist.3

 

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Quote

 Azadari rituals 

Azadari Rituals are not covered under the Marja-e-Taqlid Islamic Act books https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

There are Marja-Taqlid who do not comment on this as this is matter between the Azadar and the Blessed Mother of the Imam Husayn(عليه السلام). 

Only way, a Marja can bring Azadari 'Rituals" under their Domain of authority to issue a verdict. Is using the 'Image" issue. which is very subjective with time and culture. Hence, not a valid reason which will provide a ruling for ALL time and All situation till the end of time. 

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2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Tried to Ioook it up, but waht is maasoom/maasom?

It means the protected person. 

Like in Bukhari 7198 for both Caliph and Prophet, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

فَالْمَعْصُومُ مَنْ عَصَمَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَ

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7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Tried to Ioook it up, but waht is maasoom/maasom?

Putting aside the technical Terminology kindly consider this

Quote

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

https://www.al-islam.org/shiah-are-real-ahlul-sunnah-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi/hadith-al-thaqalayn-according-shias

Quote

For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)

man kuntu mawlahu fa `Aliyyun mawlahu

As per the Qur'an

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59}

[Pickthal 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

-------------

As a layman, Mas'omeen are my "Mawla" /Master obedience is obligatory. Hadith of the al-Thaqalayn(Two Weighty Thins) ,  Hadith Al- Kisa( Hadith of the cloak)  and Announcement at Ghadir Khumm is sufficient .

As such i do not need to probe more nor have the ability to determine if my Master/Mawla can commit errors. If that was the case My Tawheed is shaky, as it is the command and the Amr of the Allah(عزّ وجلّ). I would be doubting the one who created me and assigned Guides for my Guidance. 

We probe and dig into to things under our Domain, by Definition My Mawla/Master is not in my Domain to pass judgment. 

Lastly, Question to ask these scholors/Marja is that Hujjat Allah ibn al-Hasan al-Mahdi(عليه السلام) Will He(عليه السلام) be obeyed? what criteria will they use to determine if error was made- 

As you see it will not make sense to have a Divine guide who is not obeyed by the Ummah becasue of a doubt of error in judgement or command. Its shaky, incomplete Tawheed- as all points back to their Lord. 

Layman

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Guest Karbalaiy
On 6/20/2020 at 4:56 PM, Guest muhib said:

salam, what have you heard or read about or from the sayyid that makes you believe he does not consider the Imams to be infallible?

ws, i read a lecture of his on real-tashayu website in which he said imams are not masoom so this has made me very confused.

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Guest muhib
On 6/22/2020 at 11:01 AM, Guest Karbalaiy said:

ws, i read a lecture of his on real-tashayu website in which he said imams are not masoom so this has made me very confused.

is this lecture available with english translation on his own website or on youtube so we can confirm he actually said so as this sounds hard to believe?

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Guest Karbalaiy
20 hours ago, Guest muhib said:

is this lecture available with english translation on his own website or on youtube so we can confirm he actually said so as this sounds hard to believe?

i couldn't find it anywhere else (in english, i don't know arabic so don't know if its available elsewhere) that's why i asked here. I also asked real-tashayu admin about this and this is what he replied.

Karbalaiy: so does ayt kamal hydri not believe that imams are masoom?

Bhooka_bhairiya: No, he does strongly believe that they're ma'soom (he also believes they're 'wasatah al faydh' i.e. intermediaries for everyone for all the bounties of Allah), but he does not believe that belief in infallibility is a condition of being a Shia. This post was meant to show his interpretation of the beliefs of the early Shias, in the time of Ali b. Hussain, al Baqir and al Sadiq.

This has made me very very confused because how can someone be a proper shia if they don't believe imams are masoom? i'm also worried that my aamal like prayers, fasting for the past few months since i started his taqlid would now become invalid?

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4 hours ago, Guest Karbalaiy said:

This has made me very very confused because how can someone be a proper shia if they don't believe imams are masoom? i'm also worried that my aamal like prayers, fasting for the past few months since i started his taqlid would now become invalid?

Brother, the debate is not about ismah in itself. The shi'a are pretty much unanimous on the fact that the aimmah (عليه السلام) are ma'soom. The differences lie on the extent and definition of this infallibility.

As for prayers and fasting, these things do not differ from one marja to another. The shi'a pray and fast in the same way. 

If you're not comfortable with sayed al haydari then simply refer to another jurist for matters of fiqh (which by the way ismah doesn't fall into because it's a topic of aqaaid) 

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On 6/24/2020 at 6:57 PM, Guest muhib said:

is this lecture available with english translation on his own website or on youtube so we can confirm he actually said so as this sounds hard to believe?

I assume he got it from here: http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2020/06/mainstream-shiite-beliefs-until-mid.html?m=1

The article contains a link to al-Haydari’s website. Personally, I don’t see anything controversial in his comments.

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To be honest it isn't clear that the Sayed believes in many of these things that are attributed to him. He definitely sees himself as a reformer however most of these videos are clips of him reading from a book and saying such and such said this or that. It is a bit of a stretch to assume that he must also hold that view just because he was quoting a person who did.

A good example of that is with the birth of Imam Mahdi, it was pretty obvious that he was saying that if you go by strict rijali standards you can't accept the narrations about his birth being witnessed. But that grew to 'Kamal al-Haydari rejects Imam Mahdi' when that obviously wasn't the case.

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