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In the Name of God بسم الله

A Syed Girl's marriage with Non-Syed Boy - Why is this even a topic of discussion?

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

In authentic Hadiths of Aima (عليه السلام):

Halal of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Halal forever

Haram of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Haram forever

Fatwa based on Qias is no Hujjah for shias.

We will reject Innovations till we are alive.

Because we care not about the people, we care about what Imams (عليه السلام) has said.

This idea of halal and haram is an important part of faith - no disagreement there. I also agree that this culture of Syed-Syed only marriages is misguided.

However, other things have to be taken into consideration. Like, does a halal, and not necessarily wajib act, cause fitna within a Muslim community? Does it cause unbearable hardship while living in that particular community or culture? If yes, then that act should be avoided for the greater good.

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Bismillah.  Many Ulima of Shia has considered it to be halal and completely valid but people of subcontinent abuse them and curse them for this. There is a famous hadith of Imam Jaffer-e-Sad

Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) married a Coptic slave named Maria al-Qibtiyya, Maria the Copt. Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) was married to a Persian slave, Shahrbanu, the mother of Imam Al

This repressive ideology of syed and non syed marriage has ruined too many lives to count.I know of two cases where both syeds each gender were scarred for life. I can understand someone marrying

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Sabrejet,

I don’t think we’re bashing anyone. It just so happens that this practice is more prevalent in indo pak than anywhere else. 
 

I mean if caste system was to be implemented than it kind of defeats the whole purpose of the religion of Islam. The only criteria is piety when it comes to marriages. But sadly that is never considered in the first place. What’s taken into consideration is how much the boy or girl has. Does he or she belong to a rich family or not. Are they good looking or not, so on and so forth. 
 

Also, I agree on the fitna part. If someone’s marrying out of family just to spite others than yeah, that’s something to be discouraged. If you’re able to find yourself someone within these man made circles, well and good. I don’t think the brother is saying that you *have* to marry a non-syed. But it’s also important to know that you *can* marry one. It’s permissible.

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6 hours ago, Triggered said:

Sabrejet,

I don’t think we’re bashing anyone. It just so happens that this practice is more prevalent in indo pak than anywhere else. 
 

I mean if caste system was to be implemented than it kind of defeats the whole purpose of the religion of Islam. The only criteria is piety when it comes to marriages. But sadly that is never considered in the first place. What’s taken into consideration is how much the boy or girl has. Does he or she belong to a rich family or not. Are they good looking or not, so on and so forth. 
 

Also, I agree on the fitna part. If someone’s marrying out of family just to spite others than yeah, that’s something to be discouraged. If you’re able to find yourself someone within these man made circles, well and good. I don’t think the brother is saying that you *have* to marry a non-syed. But it’s also important to know that you *can* marry one. It’s permissible.

I am a Zaidi Syed myself, and I have seen multiple failed marriages of my aunts and female cousins, just because they were made to marry the first half-way decent Syed who would agree to marry them. In an ideal scenario, they would have been free to marry non Syeds, or even Sunni men who wouldn't interfere in their religion.

My mother was a Sunni herself when she first married my father. In short, I have personally have no issues to who wants to marry whom, as long as Islamic limits are followed.

Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world. For some asinine reason, it has been ingrained in our minds that a Syed and non-Syed union is not valid. Also, everyone believes (wrongly) that parents, or uncles, or brothers etc have shar'i permission to control who their women marry. The father only has the right to refuse a suitor if he finds he is deficient in his deen or ikhlaq etc, nothing more. If he finds no objection in these areas, and his daughter is happy with the union, he can't actually do anything.

Man is not an army officer/civil servant/doctor? No 2 kanal house in DHA/Bahria? Doesn't have a nice car? He's not Syed? He can't refuse that proposal if the man fulfills the basic shar'i requirements and his daughter is happy. I wish more people know this, but they don't, and it will take a long time for this culture to change. In the meantime, we have to make do with what we are given. There are many halal things that we can't practice given the present conditions of our time; there are many haram things that have become ingrained in our society that seem almost impossible to get rid of now.

We have moved away from the true teachings of our Prophet and Ahlul Bayt, and it just makes me sad. It just makes you pray for the speedy arrival of our Imam more.

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Totally and please correct me if I’m wrong but  I think The Prophet Himself asked Janaab e Sayyeda if She wants to marry Imam Ali or not. 
 

I myself was married to a Sunni who after eight years of our marriage reverted to being a Muhib. 
 

What frustrates me the most is that except for Tariq Jameel sb, nobody else is talking about the institution of marriage. Don’t get me wrong, I do love the Zikr of Maula Ali in our majalis but there’s hardly no serious talk about why are so many men, and especially women are suffering because of domestic abuse. 
 

Yikes. Gotta go. My little needs my attention. More later insha’Allah 

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On 11/4/2020 at 11:16 PM, Sabrejet said:

Like, does a halal, and not necessarily wajib act, cause fitna within a Muslim community? Does it cause unbearable hardship while living in that particular community or culture? If yes, then that act should be avoided for the greater good

I heard from many scholors, that the one who acts upon sunnah when it is being abolished, he gets sawaab of a Shaheed.

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Bumping this topic.

I have seen some views on this topic which I didn't know before. Shahnshah Naqvi alleges he was a first hand witness in the following event.

According to a video clip by Allama Shahnshah Naqvi, Ayatollah Bahjat didn't view a Syeda's marriage with a non-Syed as preferable, unless there is no choice.

Reportedly, Ayatollah Bahjat was performing the 'aqd of such a marriage. He asked the father before hand, something along the lines of "was there no suitable Syed available?" The father replied that her age was advancing, and no suitable Syed proposal was forthcoming. So, they settled for a suitable non-Syed. Ayatollah Bahjat then reportedly said that it's alright in this case.

Anyways, reportedly his views were that a Syed-Syeda marriage is preferable, a Syed-non Syeda marriage is afzal, and a non-Syed - Syeda marriage was the least preferred, unless there was no other choice.

In any case marriage with a known Nasibi is haram.

On most marja's websites, this explanation is not given on the question of Syeda marriage, for whatever reason. I'm guessing it's to prevent offending millions of people in such marriages in the middle east, to prevent fasaad.

Btw, Shahnshah Naqvi claims to be open to questions; if someone wants to follow up and contact him, he's apparently ready to give references, books, traditions, and their sanads.

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Permissibility of Nikah of Syed Zaadi with Non Syed in Sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) via hadith of Imam Ali Reza (عليه السلام):

There is an authentic Hadith in Uyoon Akhbaar e Reza (عليه السلام) often quoted by people to prove such a Nikah is invalid, here i quote it from a book written in refutation of people who claim such a marriage is Halal:

image.thumb.png.1acba0863452b1daed0ab980307c8d14.png

We all know, that a person can marry his cousins and there is no doubt in it and one can even marry daughters of cousins.
We all know Jafer (عليه السلام) and Ali (عليه السلام) were chacha zaad cousins of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Syeda Fatimah (عليه السلام) was married to Ali (عليه السلام) so this would be an exception.
As for Jafer (عليه السلام), his daughters by Shariyah wouldn't be Haram for Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Now Imam Reza (عليه السلام) in this hadith say that If you were aal, your daughters would have been haram for Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).
This proves that others who can marry their daughters to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wouldn't be Syed and same should be said about Jafer Bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام).

Now Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) married Syeda Zainab (عليه السلام) and Syeda Umme Kulthum (عليه السلام) to sons of Jafer (عليه السلام) who were ghair-Sadaat thus proving such a Nikah was indeed valid!

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Some twelvers came up with this:

فأما نكاح الشرائف من آل رسول الله فلا يجوز ذلك عندنا إلا لآل رسول الله صلى الله عليه والوجه في ذلك قوله صلى الله عليه: <واصطفاني من بني هاشم>، وقوله صلى الله عليه: <لا يزوجن النساء إلا من الأكفاء، ولا كفؤ لأولاد فاطمة عليها السلام إلا منهم

أصول الأحكام: الجامع لأدلة الحلال والحرام - متوكل على الله، أحمد بن سليمان

ج٤، ص٧

Now, first thing is that this is a Book by Zaidi Scholar and has nothing to do with Twlevers.

Secondly he uses a hadith in here which is:

وقوله صلى الله عليه: <لا يزوجن النساء إلا من الأكفاء، ولا كفؤ لأولاد فاطمة عليها السلام إلا منهم

And His (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saying that: do not marry women excpet for with their kufvs and there is no kufv ( match ) of progeny of Zahra (عليه السلام) except for themselves.

First he didn't give any chain to this hadith. Ahmed Bin Sulaim died in 566 A.H.

Secondly i can't believe for how long these people would keep using contradictory narrations.

Here:

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) looked at children of Jafer (عليه السلام) and Ali (عليه السلام) and said: Our daughters are for our sons and our sons are for our daughters.

Man la Yahzarahu Al Faqih - Sheikh Sadooq

If Bani Fatimah are only a kufv in Nikah for each other, how come Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) married children of Ali (عليه السلام) and Jafer (عليه السلام)? Children of Jafer (عليه السلام) aren't from Bani Fatimah right?

Also i hope no Zaidi either would be willing to deny Syeda Zainab (عليه السلام) married Abdullah bin jafer (عليه السلام) who wasn't from Bani Fatimah.

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On 6/19/2020 at 5:15 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Bismillah. 

Many Ulima of Shia has considered it to be halal and completely valid but people of subcontinent abuse them and curse them for this.

There is a famous hadith of Imam Jaffer-e-Sadiq (عليه السلام) that everything is permissible until its forbidden.

Can anyone who believes that Syed girl cannot marry Non-Syed boy, show any authentic hadith in which imam prohibited it?
If not then why are you innovating deen with your personal views? Isn't that Qias?

There is no Ayah of Quran on that, no Hadith, no ijma then what do you have?

Your last statement is totally false. There are many hadith which speak about it not only among syeds but also among non-muslims. A girl was married to a man and he deemed her to bd majnoon. Imam Ali (S) refuted his suc claim on the basis of kuff and said she was sensitive. 

Although many marajas have validated it but they all emphasize upon kuff that is to say a non-syed marrying a syed be either equal to or better in acts and soul. Now since no one among non-muslims or muslims know about kuff perfectly, this has become a very complex issue. 

Allah (S) has promised kawthar for prophet (S) now its upto syeds and non-syeds to interpret and carry the mission forever. But if we won't then He (S) will create those who will do instead of us.

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19 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabit said:

Your last statement is totally false. There are many hadith which speak about it not only among syeds but also among non-muslims. A girl was married to a man and he deemed her to bd majnoon. Imam Ali (S) refuted his suc claim on the basis of kuff and said she was sensitive. 

Although many marajas have validated it but they all emphasize upon kuff that is to say a non-syed marrying a syed be either equal to or better in acts and soul. Now since no one among non-muslims or muslims know about kuff perfectly, this has become a very complex issue. 

Allah (S) has promised kawthar for prophet (S) now its upto syeds and non-syeds to interpret and carry the mission forever. But if we won't then He (S) will create those who will do instead of us.

What did you find wrong in last statement?

Issue if Kufv (Match for Marriages) has been explained by our Imams (عليه السلام) in hadiths and Scholars in Books of Hadith that kufv is someone who has Good character, Emaan (He is a believer) and can provide his wife with very basic necessities of life.

No single narration says kufv (match for marriage) is associated with Nasab or Zaat or Zaat. Only people who either mis interpret some hadiths or do QIAS say so.

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19 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

What did you find wrong in last statement?

Issue if Kufv (Match for Marriages) has been explained by our Imams (عليه السلام) in hadiths and Scholars in Books of Hadith that kufv is someone who has Good character, Emaan (He is a believer) and can provide his wife with very basic necessities of life.

No single narration says kufv (match for marriage) is associated with Nasab or Zaat or Zaat. Only people who either mis interpret some hadiths or do QIAS say so.

I find out your claim to be wrong that there are no verse in Quran and no Hadith available. Quran says Prophet (PBUHHP) has been granted kawthar. All marajas agree that it is revealed in the honor of Syeda Zahra (عليه السلام) from whom generation of Prophet will run. 

Imam Ali a s said: "Our daughters are for our sons". 

About marriages of syeds to non-syeds by Imams, they know their kuff and in reality they belonged to them like Hazrat Salman (عليه السلام) was entitled as: "He is among us Ahlebait". 

Now, you tell me are you speculating or I am. You said no verse no hadith. 

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21 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

This is not impacted by who a woman marries since the lineage is through the father. 

Is it so, why then Allah (عزّ وجلّ) calls Prophet Esa ((عليه السلام)) to be from Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in the Holy Quran?

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39 minutes ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Is it so, why then Allah (عزّ وجلّ) calls Prophet Esa ((عليه السلام)) to be from Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in the Holy Quran?

If that's the case, then regardless of whom an 'alwiyyah marries, her children will be sadaat (which isn't really the case). Either way your argument of 'continuing the lineage' doesn't work because it only depends on one parent and not both. 

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4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

If that's the case, then regardless of whom an 'alwiyyah marries, her children will be sadaat (which isn't really the case). Either way your argument of 'continuing the lineage' doesn't work because it only depends on one parent and not both. 

It is in rare examples like Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) and Prophet Esa (عليه السلام) are unique so is the case of Hazrat Maryam (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Fatima (عليه السلام). If what you say were truth then we definitely would have narrations from Aimah (عليه السلام) but there aren't and this is also the view of Marajas. 

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7 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

If what you say were truth then we definitely would have narrations from Aimah (عليه السلام) but there aren't and this is also the view of Marajas. 

Actually, it works the other way around. If something is forbidden then we would have verses or narrations supporting it. 

The marriage of a man and woman is not based on whether they are sayyid or not. This is also why it is permissible according to the fuqaha, and why the aimmah themselves married from outside of their own communities and lineage. 

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On 2/12/2021 at 6:25 PM, Guest Fluffy Rabit said:

I find out your claim to be wrong that there are no verse in Quran and no Hadith available. Quran says Prophet (PBUHHP) has been granted kawthar. All marajas agree that it is revealed in the honor of Syeda Zahra (عليه السلام) from whom generation of Prophet will run. 

Yes Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was given Al-Kauthar not all the sadaat were given that.

You are comparing merits of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Syeda (عليه السلام) with their children which is very in-appropriate.

And its hadith of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that our daughters are for our sons. Yes. It is and you have quoted 1/3rd hadith here. I will quote complete hadith here for you:

Book: Eteqadaat e Sadooq (A [Edited Out]te Creed):

Hadith: Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) looked at the children of Ali (عليه السلام) and Jafer (عليه السلام) and said:

"Our daughters are for our sons and our sons are for our daughters".

If 1st part of hadith makes it invalid for daughters of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to marry outside sadaat, then the very next part makes it haram for Sadaat Boys to marry any non-sadaat as well. 

My 1st question to you is if i use your logic, how many non-sadaat women did Imams (عليه السلام) marry and wouldn't that be haram as per your logic since imams are sadaat?

And i have a list of questions over this and if needed, i am here to discuss.

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10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Actually, it works the other way around. If something is forbidden then we would have verses or narrations supporting it. 

The marriage of a man and woman is not based on whether they are sayyid or not. This is also why it is permissible according to the fuqaha, and why the aimmah themselves married from outside of their own communities and lineage. 

If you actually look at what I have written previously, you would find that I have written that Surah-e-Kawthar speaks about Syeda Fatima Zahra ((عليه السلام)) and through her will run progeny of Prophet Muhammad (PBUHHP). And, this meaning of surah Kawthar was expounded by Hadith of Prophet (S) and Aaimah ((عليه السلام)). 

But you have nothing in evidence to counter above commentary of Surah-e-Kawthar. I already gave you "the other way around" which you pointed to. Do you have something from Prophet (S) and Aaimah ((عليه السلام))?

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4 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Yes Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was given Al-Kauthar not all the sadaat were given that.

You are comparing merits of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Syeda (عليه السلام) with their children which is very in-appropriate.

And its hadith of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that our daughters are for our sons. Yes. It is and you have quoted 1/3rd hadith here. I will quote complete hadith here for you:

Book: Eteqadaat e Sadooq (A [Edited Out]te Creed):

Hadith: Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) looked at the children of Ali (عليه السلام) and Jafer (عليه السلام) and said:

"Our daughters are for our sons and our sons are for our daughters".

If 1st part of hadith makes it invalid for daughters of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to marry outside sadaat, then the very next part makes it haram for Sadaat Boys to marry any non-sadaat as well. 

My 1st question to you is if i use your logic, how many non-sadaat women did Imams (عليه السلام) marry and wouldn't that be haram as per your logic since imams are sadaat?

And i have a list of questions over this and if needed, i am here to discuss.

lolz, why it is inappropriate? This is commentary made by Marajas in light of the Ahadith of Masomeen (عليه السلام). You and I are not marajas brother. Stick to what Imams have said, do not come out with qayas which you already have been doing.

Yup that's the point. Its hadith of Rasol-Allah (S) which I heard from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam do not do anything except what Rasol-Allah (S) have said. 

And, thank you for reminding me whole hadith, I really appreciate that. Here also, the condition of kuff stands, any woman whose piety has no equal but a syed and she is such that she excels over all other women of sadaat in her piety and faith, is kuff of a such a virtuous syed. And, she is syed like Hazrat Salman-e-Muhammadi ((عليه السلام)) was syed by his soul and as were Hazrat Muslim ibn aqeel (عليه السلام) a syed by soul. There are two kinds of Ismah, one Ismah is Ismah-e-Kubra and one is Ismah-e-Sughra. Ismah-e-Kubra are only the Masoomeen. And anyone who has Ismah-e-Sughra, but is not a syed by blood, is a syed by soul and related to Prophet (S) as is proved by his ahadith, and his children even if he marries a syeda girl will not be syed. But, if a syed is syed by both blood and by soul due to possessing Ismah-e-Sughra, and he marries a girl who is non-syeda but possess zuhd equal to that Ismah-e-Kubrah she is related to Prophet (S) and her children will be syeds as is taught by Fiqh.

Now, the question for you is that whether Surah-e-Kawthar means that there shall remain progeny of Muhammad by blood or by soul or by both! 

I will interpret it as both until Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) teaches me otherwise because in this matter, the people are divided and best answer is one which encompasses both.

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2 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

If you actually look at what I have written previously, you would find that I have written that Surah-e-Kawthar speaks about Syeda Fatima Zahra ((عليه السلام)) and through her will run progeny of Prophet Muhammad (PBUHHP). And, this meaning of surah Kawthar was expounded by Hadith of Prophet (S) and Aaimah ((عليه السلام)). 

But you have nothing in evidence to counter above commentary of Surah-e-Kawthar. I already gave you "the other way around" which you pointed to. Do you have something from Prophet (S) and Aaimah ((عليه السلام))?

There is no point to be countered there, surah al kawthar being about Sayyida Fatima Zahra (عليه السلام) isn't being debated here.

Your claim is apparently that the women among the sadaat can only marry sayyid men, whereas there is no such rule in our teachings. 

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

There is no point to be countered there, surah al kawthar being about Sayyida Fatima Zahra (عليه السلام) isn't being debated here.

Your claim is apparently that the women among the sadaat can only marry sayyid men, whereas there is no such rule in our teachings. 

Well, if you see whole syed and non-syed debate is on the basis of Surah Kawthar. If a syed girl wants that her children be related to Prophet (pbuhhp) and want to marry a syed then why shouldn't she ? And, if a syed boy things a non-syeda girl would dislike his children to marry syeds because some ignorant syed females mock her for not being syed then he may choose to marry syed girl for the sake of securing her emotions and connecting his children to Prophet (S).

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55 minutes ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Well, if you see whole syed and non-syed debate is on the basis of Surah Kawthar.

I don't see why it should be, suratul kawthar is not commenting on the rules of marriage.

56 minutes ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

If a syed girl wants that her children be related to Prophet (pbuhhp) and want to marry a syed then why shouldn't she ?

Sure, she can marry a sayyid just as she can marry a non sayyid. Both are permissible.

57 minutes ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

And, if a syed boy things a non-syeda girl would dislike his children to marry syeds because some ignorant syed females mock her for not being syed then he may choose to marry syed girl for the sake of securing her emotions and connecting his children to Prophet (S).

If he is a sayyid then his children are anyway connected to the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) through his lineage regardless of who their mother is. 

More importantly the way to connect to the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is through his teachings.

Note that the likes of Abu Lahab were also connected to him through shared lineage. 

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10 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

lolz, why it is inappropriate? This is commentary made by Marajas in light of the Ahadith of Masomeen (عليه السلام). You and I are not marajas brother

So now comparing anyone to Ahlebait (عليه السلام) has finally become legal according to your fiqh? And which marja prohibits such a marriage? Also when discussing something or getting deep into something, you quote actual evidence for any claim you make. Simply quoting opinion of Marjas in a discussion like this means nothing unless you quote evidence for his fatwa.

10 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Stick to what Imams have said, do not come out with qayas which you already have been doing.

ماشاءاللہ . Where have i been using Qias? You know you used a few hadiths here and Surah Al-Kauthar to prove your point. Please quote one single Hadith of any Masoom in which Masomeen (عليه السلام) used these to declare that Sadaat can only marry Sadaat. Else i would say you picked up Surah, interpreted it in a way which no Masoom ever interpreted which is Tafseer bir-raye (interpretation by ones own opinion) which has been declared as a sign of disbelief according to Hadith e Qudsi in Amali of Sheikh Sadooq.

If you carefully look at what you posted, you'll realize that you have been doing Qias by quoting merits of Syeda (عليه السلام) and applying them on every other person from her children.

Also i responded to your interpretation of that hadith if Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to show you that the way you interpret that hadith is false and it even leads to tauheen of Aima (عليه السلام).

10 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Here also, the condition of kuff stands, any woman whose piety has no equal but a syed and she is such that she excels over all other women of sadaat in her piety and faith, is kuff of a such a virtuous syed.

First of all, prove that Kufv has something to do with being a Syed. 

Don't use Qias, quote Hadith.

10 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

And, she is syed like Hazrat Salman-e-Muhammadi ((عليه السلام)) was syed by his soul and as were Hazrat Muslim ibn aqeel (عليه السلام) a syed by soul.

Lol. Aima (عليه السلام) used words "he is from AhleBait (عليه السلام)" for a number of companions like Yunus Bin Yaqub and list goes on. It doesn't make them children of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Similar hadiths can be found for some pious shias of Aima (عليه السلام) and that doesn't make them a Syed.

From where are you getting this idea? Do you have any references or you are just making up things by Qias and then accusing me of doing it?

11 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

And anyone who has Ismah-e-Sughra, but is not a syed by blood, is a syed by soul and related to Prophet (S) as is proved by his ahadith, and his children even if he marries a syeda girl will not be syed. But, if a syed is syed by both blood and by soul due to possessing Ismah-e-Sughra, and he marries a girl who is non-syeda but possess zuhd equal to that Ismah-e-Kubrah she is related to Prophet (S) and her children will be syeds as is taught by Fiqh.

That didn't make any sense.

Being a syed, has nothing to do with Ismah. If a Syed marries a Non-Syed girl, children would be Sadaat because lineage is via father except for some special cases because Allah does whatever he wants.

11 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Now, the question for you is that whether Surah-e-Kawthar means that there shall remain progeny of Muhammad by blood or by soul or by both!

Simple is, by blood it will remain and no one can deny that. 

BUT point is, this isn't our topic. Which Imam used Surah Kauthar to prove Sadaat can't marry non-sadaat? The burden of proof is upon you because you are making a claim.

Also, hadith you quoted out of context didn't help you.

So in the end, my claim stands:

You got no Ayah, no Hadith to prove Syeda can't marry non-sadaat.

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Secondly, i would leave another question for you over hadith:

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) looked at children of Ali (عليه السلام) and Jafer (عليه السلام) and said:

"Our Daughters are for our sons and our sons are for our daughters."

Ref: Man Layahzarahu Al Faqih

Now if this hadith is related with Kufv (Match) for marriage, then please carefully notice, that this hadith is specific to only children of Ali (عليه السلام) and Jafer (عليه السلام) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) right? Because they are specifically mentioned in the above hadith and "our" refers to three of them and no one else because hadith is specifically mentions it.

It means only children of Ali (عليه السلام), Jafer (عليه السلام) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) continued his (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Progeny through Syeda Fatimah (عليه السلام) only) are kufv (Match) for each other and IT INCLUDES NO ONE ELSE!

Now here answer this but Don't use Qias to add anyone else into above hadith of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

1005] 9 - عبد الله بن مسلم بن عقيل، قتل معه عليه السلام، امه رقية بنت علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام

رجال الطوسي - الشيخ الطوسي - الصفحة ١٠٣

Sheikh Tusi says (Statement shows his trust over it) that Abdullah Bin Muslim Bin Aqeel his mother was Syeda Ruqayyah Bint Ali (عليه السلام).

Means Syeda Ruqayyah Bint Ali (عليه السلام) was wife of Muslim Bin Aqeel (عليه السلام).

If you consider above hadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to explain issue of kufv (match) in marriages, then only Children of Ali (عليه السلام), Jafer (عليه السلام) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are a kufv (match) in marriages for each other and not the children of Aqeel Bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام) because they aren't mentioned in hadith.

This again goes against your interpretation of hadith. Practical of Aima (عليه السلام) deny the way you interpret that hadith.

There is one more question that can be added here:

Since only Children of Ali (عليه السلام), Jafer (عليه السلام) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are kufv (match) in marriages for each other right? And children means both sons and daughters as it has been mentioned in hadith, why did imams (عليه السلام) marry non sadaat women? According to your interpretation, non sadaat women wouldn't be a kufv (match) for marriage for children of Ali (عليه السلام), Jafer (عليه السلام) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Looking forward for answers.

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On 11/4/2020 at 9:25 PM, Sabrejet said:

Rough translation: "In a particular region, if the marriage of a Syeda with a non-Syed is considered a stain on her honour, then it's not permissible in sharia. God knows best".

A question on this fatwa. 

What is 'honor' according to Ayatullah Basheer Hussain al Najafi (رضي الله عنه) from Quran and Sunnah?

Because in India and Pakistan, even 'arrogance' translates to 'honor'.

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On 9/22/2020 at 9:30 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

Get over it. Not a big deal.

A BIG Deal. An extremely big deal actually.

Besides what other brothers over here mentioned, I have a big question.

Why non-Sayyid in the sub-continent (specifically) feel a need to falsely make a claim of being sadaat? And believe me, the number is huge. 

What I speculate is that this is a consequence of 'Sayyid superiority over non-Sayyid' that is discussed over here. 

Isn't it an innovation? How can we let it go away like this when the times are tough and marriage issues are becoming extremely difficult?

Faithful sayyids are decreasing and faithful non-Sayyids (through converts) is increasing. 

Why is this question asked sooo much today is itself a reason that maybe sayyeda women are not getting any sayyid now.

My opinion is that it is:

Not from Islam, so Innovation

problematic as it has extreme consequences.

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10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't see why it should be, suratul kawthar is not commenting on the rules of marriage.

Then what it comments on! Does not Marajas quote hadith that by this is meant to answer the mocking of infidels who mocked him for not having son!

10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Sure, she can marry a sayyid just as she can marry a non sayyid. Both are permissible.

Yes, she can but her children won't be called as syeds. 

10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

If he is a sayyid then his children are anyway connected to the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) through his lineage regardless of who their mother is. 

More importantly the way to connect to the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is through his teachings.

Note that the likes of Abu Laha

True, his children be called as syeds. But he is not sure whether his wife follow Islamic traditions of hijab or would cut it off because she thinks its a syed way and not Islamic obligation. And, the person has to live whole life consoling her if she is mocked by syed women or be silent and watch how women taunt each other. 

Some men cannot stand women's continous and unending complains. 

About Abu Lahab, you speak truth. And, so has Imam Ali (عليه السلام) disassociated with bad people among his coming generations. 

As said earlier, a syed is not a comllete syed unless his soul is good too. If there is an evil syed, a virtuous non-syed against him holds the right to be followed and supported by all syeds. 

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4 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

So now comparing anyone to Ahlebait (عليه السلام) has finally become legal according to your fiqh? And which marja prohibits such a marriage? Also when discussing something or getting deep into something, you quote actual evidence for any claim you make. Simply quoting opinion of Marjas in a discussion like this means nothing unless you quote evidence for his fatwa.

ماشاءاللہ . Where have i been using Qias? You know you used a few hadiths here and Surah Al-Kauthar to prove your point. Please quote one single Hadith of any Masoom in which Masomeen (عليه السلام) used these to declare that Sadaat can only marry Sadaat. Else i would say you picked up Surah, interpreted it in a way which no Masoom ever interpreted which is Tafseer bir-raye (interpretation by ones own opinion) which has been declared as a sign of disbelief according to Hadith e Qudsi in Amali of Sheikh Sadooq.

If you carefully look at what you posted, you'll realize that you have been doing Qias by quoting merits of Syeda (عليه السلام) and applying them on every other person from her children.

Also i responded to your interpretation of that hadith if Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to show you that the way you interpret that hadith is false and it even leads to tauheen of Aima (عليه السلام).

First of all, prove that Kufv has something to do with being a Syed. 

Don't use Qias, quote Hadith.

Lol. Aima (عليه السلام) used words "he is from AhleBait (عليه السلام)" for a number of companions like Yunus Bin Yaqub and list goes on. It doesn't make them children of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Similar hadiths can be found for some pious shias of Aima (عليه السلام) and that doesn't make them a Syed.

From where are you getting this idea? Do you have any references or you are just making up things by Qias and then accusing me of doing it?

That didn't make any sense.

Being a syed, has nothing to do with Ismah. If a Syed marries a Non-Syed girl, children would be Sadaat because lineage is via father except for some special cases because Allah does whatever he wants.

Simple is, by blood it will remain and no one can deny that. 

BUT point is, this isn't our topic. Which Imam used Surah Kauthar to prove Sadaat can't marry non-sadaat? The burden of proof is upon you because you are making a claim.

Also, hadith you quoted out of context didn't help you.

So in the end, my claim stands:

You got no Ayah, no Hadith to prove Syeda can't marry non-sadaat.

Look man, I do not carry Commentaries of Quran always but I have read commentaries about it that Surah-e-Kawthar was revealed prophesizing about numerous children of Prophet (s). 

If you want it, please read commentaries instead of repeating again again what you have already said. 

About whether you did Qayas or not. Let's end it here instead of making my eyes painful with your long posts which are meant to be like a dictatorial speech rather than allowing others to put their opinions as well. It might be because you have been an apple's eye of your parents and they never got the time to teach you how to form a justified opinion rather than repeating unfairly what you wants to be. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Does not Marajas quote hadith that by this is meant to answer the mocking of infidels who mocked him for not having son!

Correct. As I said, nothing to do with rules of marriage. 

 

1 hour ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Yes, she can but her children won't be called as syeds. 

So we agree, it's permissible. 

1 hour ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

True, his children be called as syeds. But he is not sure whether his wife follow Islamic traditions of hijab or would cut it off because she thinks its a syed way and not Islamic obligation

The piety of a woman does not depend on her ancestry. The mothers of most of our aimmah had non muslim ancestors. 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Correct. As I said, nothing to do with rules of marriage. 

Lolz how it has nothing to do with marriage, do syed children descend from above, they mean it biological children not the spiritual ones. Both can be right. Neither you or I have the right to say which meaning is true. Safe woulď be to accept both and let us not be Imams ourselves for we are not granted authority.

1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

So we agree, it's permissible. 

When did I say its impermissible or permissible? I just don't give my opinions over this for before me its matter of a personal choice. I can't tell a Syeda not to marry a non-syed if she thinks no one is more eligible. Its between her, her Imam and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But for myself, if i am non-syed and syeda asks me for marriage, I will refuse her because for me it is a matter of faith. Unless Allah (S) corrects me if I'm wrong. A fallible's opinion has no validity for me. And, even in fiqh we are allowed to disagree with a maraja in affairs not related to usool and follow other marajas. So, there are certain marajas in whose language I deem some resistance even though they are non-syeds. So, I agree to them and hold a stand-still position. 

2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

The piety of a woman does not depend on her ancestry. The mothers of most of our aimmah had non muslim ancestors

Were her parents non-Muslims in your view? How do you know of their secrets in hearts! Prophet (PBUHHP) said take advise from three persons: "One who has good family, one who is generous or one who is beautiful (could mean inwardly or could mean inwardly and outwardly both because some beautiful faces becomes over confident and look down upon others)."

All of these qualities were in those ladies not a single one missing so wherefrom they got it. So, do not talk about their parents and be a god bro. 

 

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35 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Fluffy Rabbit you seem confused about your own position. In any case it doesn't matter because at the end of the day the rules of fiqh are clear on this matter. 

Well bro, I accept that I am confused. I request you if you have access to Imam-e-Zamana and because of that you are certain please request him on my behalf to clarify this matter for me. Being confused on hidden matters is not a shame for me because through this, I will recognize who is truthful and who is false. 

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45 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Fluffy Rabbit you seem confused about your own position. In any case it doesn't matter because at the end of the day the rules of fiqh are clear on this matter. 

And, if it does not matter for you, it matters for me bro. I cannot take any verse of Quran lightly and make assumptions about it. It is right of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to grant guidance for it, if He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has kept some issue concealed, it means, He (عزّ وجلّ) want to take our trial as to who will not pass their own judgements and also to keep some questions so that fake imams be deciphered through it. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Fluffy Rabbit said:

Well bro, I accept that I am confused. I request you if you have access to Imam-e-Zamana and because of that you are certain please request him on my behalf to clarify this matter for me.

The matter is already clear. A woman who is sayyid can marry a man who isn't sayyid according to our fiqh. You can refer to the marriages of the daughters of the aimmah (عليه السلام) as an example. 

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